Proc sets need to be adjusted before the end of the PTS cycle.
-
Xargas13✭✭✭This meta is the worst, everyone just builds tanky+plus proc set, which does the job for them. The only thing I support ZOS on when it comes to PvP is nerfing buffs and debuffs in the next patch.2 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭Recapitated wrote: »Nah, if anything buff proc set, way to much set in this game are useless, make them all viable.
Cool, let's make Adept Rider instakill players whenever you roll your reticle over them; the game will make no sense but those who don't quit won't have to cope with all these useless sets -- and isn't that what matters in the end?
There's no sense in using Sheer Venom in PVE. You can, and you'll be doing pretty bad, and I guess if for some reason you were doing that and Sheer Venom gets nerfed you'll be doing worse. So what? Does every set have to be viable in PVE? I don't get it, it's like if Siroria was overperforming in PVE and anytime someone asked to nerf it I were like "Well I like to be wearing Siroria when I die in BGs so don't touch it, possibly just delete PVE"
[snip]
Doesn't matter what you said, PvP is and always have been a mess. Every tentative of balance will fai and hurt pve more than anything because of how the game is NOT designed for PvP.
Any player who actually have do PvP everywhere else know why PvP in this game is that bad, no need to be a genuis to understand that.
No CD, No CC limit, No DoT limit, possibility to get all of dmg/sustan/tankiyness/heal in one build, Cancel animation that prevent any skilled counter-play.. do I need to continue ?
PvP in this game is mostly about stomping PvE player ion PvP. 2 PvP player with a decent PvP build gonna fight for age unless one of them pick the good class and got major defile.
So, yeah, until their is a clear separation between PvE and PvP they need to stop touching everything, it's pointless.
Also, PvP in a nutshell over the year on the forum :
- Nerf gankblade
- Nerf Tank
- Nerf Sorc
- Nerf Templar
- Nerf DoT
- Nerf DK stam
- Nerf Warden
- Nerf Necro
- Nerf Procset
- Nerf heal
- Nerf AoE
- Nerf ...
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]
Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on October 9, 2020 1:33PM[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
[ Khajiit ]
[ Templar - Healer ]
[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]2 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Its really weird how inconsistent stuff. New ring of Pale Order not working with procsets even tho its tooltip equal to Scion that does working. Yet same logic not implemented for Malacath yet. Wondering of this inconsistence is result of zos trying to increase total damage done.On top of that we need malacath to not buff sources of damage that can´t inheritably crit to begin with. NOCP is turning into a competition on who can stack the most procsets and apply them first.
0 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
Edited by Larcomar on October 9, 2020 12:25PM1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
I can put on sheer venom and syvarra on a stamblade with no malacath and still walk away with millions of dmg every bg, while passively getting kills.
Procsets are an issue, and malacath is making them worse, but for example on pc EU BGs were always a procfest.
It's really a combination of grossly overbuffed sets, nerfed healing and malacath.
And all 3 are an issue.
Not everyone wants to play a 40k hp sword and board warden just to outheal the dots you know.3 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭I do not use Venomouse or another dot one set.
But why they are not a problem for me ?
May be you say about new players that do not play right, but really you do not play well ?
I am not a Top pvp player, but i have no problem with this sets, and i do not use them, where i do wrong ?
What i need to do to be killed by proc sets ?3 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »Nah, if anything buff proc set, way to much set in this game are useless, make them all viable.
Cool, let's make Adept Rider instakill players whenever you roll your reticle over them; the game will make no sense but those who don't quit won't have to cope with all these useless sets -- and isn't that what matters in the end?
There's no sense in using Sheer Venom in PVE. You can, and you'll be doing pretty bad, and I guess if for some reason you were doing that and Sheer Venom gets nerfed you'll be doing worse. So what? Does every set have to be viable in PVE? I don't get it, it's like if Siroria was overperforming in PVE and anytime someone asked to nerf it I were like "Well I like to be wearing Siroria when I die in BGs so don't touch it, possibly just delete PVE"
[snip]
Doesn't matter what you said, PvP is and always have been a mess.
But it can and has gotten worse, which means it can get better. That's the thing, there's mess as in Greymoor, mess as in Stonethorn, and mess as in Markarth — none of those may be to your liking but others might find some patches playable and some patches not.
People who think PVP is irredeemable anyway have no business commenting on balance between patches — especially if they oppose any possible change even though it's demonstrably false that it will affect PVE. That's what actually "doesn't matter" here — this discussion has no effect on PVE.Edited by Recapitated on October 9, 2020 5:15PM0 -
HeroOfNone✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think a major issue is where do damage proc sets belong in the game. Note I say "damage proc sets" as some classify any set that does an ability as a "proc set". I've heard a lot of back and forth on nerfing them and improving them. On one side, some sets drop from trials and DLC dungeons (relequen, monster helms, etc) so the feeling is they hard to get, so they deserve to be stronger. In other cases its felt that damage proc sets play the game for players, releasing multiple damage procs at once.
In my opinion, most damage proc sets should be the sets you go to when you're under 50 or low on CP. The flat damage number provides an easy damage ceiling that can be adjusted and keep new players somewhat competitive with players that have been here since launch. It should, in most cases, diminish as you gain CP or access to better gear. certain trial sets might break this rule, but I think it would be better if they coupled more of them with Damage procs and stat boosting procs.
I'm not as keen to suggest "fixes" as any of this can break in a patch or two if we don't emphasize what the goal is and balancing things off that. But here are some ideas based on my opinion and the state of PTS today:
- Remove stat modifications to Procs, so things like Malakath's ring of brutality, CP, and Major/Minor buffs don't impact the damage. Penetration might still effect this, to counter balance high armor players. With this change though, damage might need to increase and it may need to ignore certain buffs like major/minor protection, to remain competitive.
- Shift some proc sets from 1 second effects into triggered synergy effects. this would give an implicit cooldown and let the user plan thier burst combo better. it also changes it from a gear set that is "letting your equipment play the game for you" into a 7th skill.
- Add a Damage Proc set cooldown, allowing only 1 damage set can activate on a GCD. This should lead to less burst with stacking multiple sets on.
- Change certain sets to scale up per the number of players in proximity. This might change sets like venomous smite, azure's blight, and Vicious death to be specific anti-zerg killers, while making them weaker for 1v1 or small fights.
Most of theses are strong enough to level the playing field on their own, so implementing all of them together would require some major tweaks to the sets as well. I also think we're seeing this now as most sets had a lot of the randomness removed, so some builds that used to be relying on that 50/50 proc now are hitting a 100% of the time. So its always been there, but now its just more prevalent.0 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Nah, if anything buff proc set, way to much set in this game are useless, make them all viable.
Cool, let's make Adept Rider instakill players whenever you roll your reticle over them; the game will make no sense but those who don't quit won't have to cope with all these useless sets -- and isn't that what matters in the end?
There's no sense in using Sheer Venom in PVE. You can, and you'll be doing pretty bad, and I guess if for some reason you were doing that and Sheer Venom gets nerfed you'll be doing worse. So what? Does every set have to be viable in PVE? I don't get it, it's like if Siroria was overperforming in PVE and anytime someone asked to nerf it I were like "Well I like to be wearing Siroria when I die in BGs so don't touch it, possibly just delete PVE"
[snip]
Doesn't matter what you said, PvP is and always have been a mess.
But it can and has gotten worse, which means it can get better. That's the thing, there's mess as in Greymoor, mess as in Stonethorn, and mess as in Markarth — none of those may be to your liking but others might find some patches playable and some patches not.
People who think PVP is irredeemable anyway have no business commenting on balance between patches — especially if they oppose any possible change even though it's demonstrably false that it will affect PVE. That's what actually "doesn't matter" here — this discussion has no effect on PVE.
The problem is the proc sets are probably the least of the problem where PvP is concerned. How about the servers simply not working so you literally can't PvP? How about how not one of the tests they did had any noticeable improvement on performance while they were going on and they've provided no feedback on any of the tests so far? How about overall class balance being non-existant and how this has been Elder Stamina Online for a year (or more)?
Proc sets aren't even on the radar for why PvP is a 'mess'.1 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Atherakhia wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Nah, if anything buff proc set, way to much set in this game are useless, make them all viable.
Cool, let's make Adept Rider instakill players whenever you roll your reticle over them; the game will make no sense but those who don't quit won't have to cope with all these useless sets -- and isn't that what matters in the end?
There's no sense in using Sheer Venom in PVE. You can, and you'll be doing pretty bad, and I guess if for some reason you were doing that and Sheer Venom gets nerfed you'll be doing worse. So what? Does every set have to be viable in PVE? I don't get it, it's like if Siroria was overperforming in PVE and anytime someone asked to nerf it I were like "Well I like to be wearing Siroria when I die in BGs so don't touch it, possibly just delete PVE"
[snip]
Doesn't matter what you said, PvP is and always have been a mess.
But it can and has gotten worse, which means it can get better. That's the thing, there's mess as in Greymoor, mess as in Stonethorn, and mess as in Markarth — none of those may be to your liking but others might find some patches playable and some patches not.
People who think PVP is irredeemable anyway have no business commenting on balance between patches — especially if they oppose any possible change even though it's demonstrably false that it will affect PVE. That's what actually "doesn't matter" here — this discussion has no effect on PVE.
The problem is the proc sets are probably the least of the problem where PvP is concerned. How about the servers simply not working so you literally can't PvP? How about how not one of the tests they did had any noticeable improvement on performance while they were going on and they've provided no feedback on any of the tests so far? How about overall class balance being non-existant and how this has been Elder Stamina Online for a year (or more)?
Proc sets aren't even on the radar for why PvP is a 'mess'.
You couldn't be further away from truth.
Performance has been a stable thing in making PvP less enjoyable but overperforming things have changed over the years and right now procs are a huge issue again.
To make matters worse procs make lag even worse.
Can't use skills due to lag? Well no problem your procs will still deal damage for you while the enemy can't react to them because his healing skills aren't going off.
Want to play a build that can kill stuff easily at the cost of some survivability and die over and over again because you couldn't react to things due to lag?
No problemo señor slap on procs and build tanky and you have much more time to react to things and be less vulnerable to lag
Procs make the game unfun to play when there's no lag and they make the game even worse when it's laggy, all they do is ruin the fun for everyone not using them.3 -
Imryll✭✭✭✭✭Of course, proc sets wouldn't be so dominant if they hadn't heavily nerfed player abilities ... It always seems strange to me that folks talk about "free" damage when there's always an opportunity cost. It's not as though non-proc sets lack 5-piece bonuses. The problem to my mind is that folks continually ask for nerfs to other classes' abilities, whether damage or healing, and then find their own abilities get nerfed because now their class is out of line. It's just a downward spiral in which individual classes become unfun to play when leading the spiral..3 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭Atherakhia wrote: »The problem is the proc sets are probably the least of the problem where PvP is concerned. How about the servers simply not working so you literally can't PvP? How about how not one of the tests they did had any noticeable improvement on performance while they were going on and they've provided no feedback on any of the tests so far? How about overall class balance being non-existant and how this has been Elder Stamina Online for a year (or more)?
Proc sets aren't even on the radar for why PvP is a 'mess'.
I'd rather have laggy gameplay with unbalanced classes/specs than the same thing with overperforming proc sets tacked on.
I thought I was pretty clear about pvp issues not being limited to Stonethorn and Markarth in the post you quoted. I don't think that validates the person I was responding to
Edited by Recapitated on October 9, 2020 10:13PM0 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
I can put on sheer venom and syvarra on a stamblade with no malacath and still walk away with millions of dmg every bg, while passively getting kills.
Procsets are an issue, and malacath is making them worse, but for example on pc EU BGs were always a procfest.
It's really a combination of grossly overbuffed sets, nerfed healing and malacath.
And all 3 are an issue.
Not everyone wants to play a 40k hp sword and board warden just to outheal the dots you know.
I really am starting to think I'm playing a different game. I get hit by these pretty frequently; they're really not that big a deal. You certainly don't need to be a 40khp sword and board build to see one off. Just to give you a small eg of that, I took one of my toons into cyro yesterday to get rapids on them. My level 18 baby kitty cat to bee precise. Wearing white level 4 training armor. And yes, heading north out of Nikel some nb spams me with hunter's venom. I just roll dodged, put some line of sight between us... and kept running. Sure, it took some health off, but it's not going to kill me.
I think what's going on here is that, because these proc sets generate a lot of ticks, they're filling up people's death recaps and quite often scoring the killing blow. That's why you're getting loads of damage and kills in Bgs. Thing is, what actually did most of the damage to the guy is the couple of big smacks he got from the magsorc over the hill. Who's probably swearing about kill stealing NBs right now. The dots themselves are good - esp with malacarth - but they're not *that* powerful. They're just very visible, because they generate alot of ticks.2 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I do not use Venomouse or another dot one set.
But why they are not a problem for me ?
May be you say about new players that do not play right, but really you do not play well ?
I am not a Top pvp player, but i have no problem with this sets, and i do not use them, where i do wrong ?
What i need to do to be killed by proc sets ?
Come on pc EU and play bgs here, high or low mmr doesn't matter.
The second you poke your head out of line of sight you will be peppered with 6-7 dot procs from multiple people.
And why they may not kill you, once you actually start fighting people and they deal Damage to you with their skills, those 4-5k dots per second eating most of your healing will quickly become an issue.
This is no cp after all, very few classes have even decent healing here.
Also the dmg these sets do isn't the only issue, it's also ease of application.
There is a reason why we don't see sets like widow maker or pillar of nirn used as much as something like sheer venom or syvarras scales.
The latter sets are far easier to apply, and a lot of players spend entire matches just dotting people up.
So it comes down to these sets applying far too much pressure for too little investment/risk, and then combine it with the relatively low healing in no cp, and you have the meta we are in right now.
Also most sources of cleanses are pathetically weak compared to the dot sets.1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
I can put on sheer venom and syvarra on a stamblade with no malacath and still walk away with millions of dmg every bg, while passively getting kills.
Procsets are an issue, and malacath is making them worse, but for example on pc EU BGs were always a procfest.
It's really a combination of grossly overbuffed sets, nerfed healing and malacath.
And all 3 are an issue.
Not everyone wants to play a 40k hp sword and board warden just to outheal the dots you know.
I really am starting to think I'm playing a different game. I get hit by these pretty frequently; they're really not that big a deal. You certainly don't need to be a 40khp sword and board build to see one off. Just to give you a small eg of that, I took one of my toons into cyro yesterday to get rapids on them. My level 18 baby kitty cat to bee precise. Wearing white level 4 training armor. And yes, heading north out of Nikel some nb spams me with hunter's venom. I just roll dodged, put some line of sight between us... and kept running. Sure, it took some health off, but it's not going to kill me.
I think what's going on here is that, because these proc sets generate a lot of ticks, they're filling up people's death recaps and quite often scoring the killing blow. That's why you're getting loads of damage and kills in Bgs. Thing is, what actually did most of the damage to the guy is the couple of big smacks he got from the magsorc over the hill. Who's probably swearing about kill stealing NBs right now. The dots themselves are good - esp with malacarth - but they're not *that* powerful. They're just very visible, because they generate alot of ticks.
Without trying to be condescending, you seem to speak in the context of someone who doesn't regularly PvP. I do regularly PvP and the issue is they are more viable than skills. I can't out heal these procs on most my classes and I don't mean one person I mean in a big fight. One v one no there not that bad, but it is still optimal to tank up with 30k+ health and wear 3-4 proc sets.
The issue is as well is the amount of proc stacking there is. In a large fight you are getting hit by proc constantly, whether the player intends to hit you with them or not. They stack on your character endlessly... When everyone was using skills, you may occasionally get overwhelmed by dots, but nothing to the degree it is now. They need to be less viable than they are now.1 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭[/quote]
Without trying to be condescending, you seem to speak in the context of someone who doesn't regularly PvP. I do regularly PvP and the issue is they are more viable than skills. I can't out heal these procs on most my classes and I don't mean one person I mean in a big fight. One v one no there not that bad, but it is still optimal to tank up with 30k+ health and wear 3-4 proc sets.
The issue is as well is the amount of proc stacking there is. In a large fight you are getting hit by proc constantly, whether the player intends to hit you with them or not. They stack on your character endlessly... When everyone was using skills, you may occasionally get overwhelmed by dots, but nothing to the degree it is now. They need to be less viable than they are now.[/quote]
I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert PVP'r. But I'm in Cyro most days for several hours. I get they can be irritating, but I think people are overstating the issue. And like I say, I'd hardly claim to be an expert pvp'r. If you're getting hit my multiple players multiple times, may be it's time to shift tactics. If they weren't hitting you with VS, they'd be hitting you with something else...
It may of course be that this is something peculiar to battlegrounds - that's not something I really do or can speak about. But I wonder, perhaps, if this is really about the people who see themselves as elite players not liking sets that allow people they see as perhaps less skilled to get kills. I.e. it's the vets complaining that zos is "lowering the skill level" again. I'm not saying that there isn't a valid complaint there - I can see it from both sides - but I do think that's a slightly wider debate - and we should be honest about what the real issue is.
1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
It doesn't promote build diversity, everyone is running proc sets and mainly the same ones...
People don't like this meta, because it reduces the need for any skill. This meta is boring.. I like using skills and it should be more powerful than procs to do so.1 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
I can put on sheer venom and syvarra on a stamblade with no malacath and still walk away with millions of dmg every bg, while passively getting kills.
Procsets are an issue, and malacath is making them worse, but for example on pc EU BGs were always a procfest.
It's really a combination of grossly overbuffed sets, nerfed healing and malacath.
And all 3 are an issue.
Not everyone wants to play a 40k hp sword and board warden just to outheal the dots you know.
I really am starting to think I'm playing a different game. I get hit by these pretty frequently; they're really not that big a deal. You certainly don't need to be a 40khp sword and board build to see one off. Just to give you a small eg of that, I took one of my toons into cyro yesterday to get rapids on them. My level 18 baby kitty cat to bee precise. Wearing white level 4 training armor. And yes, heading north out of Nikel some nb spams me with hunter's venom. I just roll dodged, put some line of sight between us... and kept running. Sure, it took some health off, but it's not going to kill me.
I think what's going on here is that, because these proc sets generate a lot of ticks, they're filling up people's death recaps and quite often scoring the killing blow. That's why you're getting loads of damage and kills in Bgs. Thing is, what actually did most of the damage to the guy is the couple of big smacks he got from the magsorc over the hill. Who's probably swearing about kill stealing NBs right now. The dots themselves are good - esp with malacarth - but they're not *that* powerful. They're just very visible, because they generate alot of ticks.
1) You weren't trying to fight anyone. In a BG, any time you expose yourself to kill someone, proc set users need only one GCD to lay the pressure on (removing any need to combo the same person, no need to aim or track targets). Even if you hide and outheal behind LOS you're neutralized — can't help your team survive or score from the sidelines.
2) Ability DOTs as just as capable of clogging up recaps but they don't, because they require more GCDs to apply, they're not as powerful, they cost resources, and many can't be applied from range.2 -
FangOfTheTwoMoons✭✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
I can put on sheer venom and syvarra on a stamblade with no malacath and still walk away with millions of dmg every bg, while passively getting kills.
Procsets are an issue, and malacath is making them worse, but for example on pc EU BGs were always a procfest.
It's really a combination of grossly overbuffed sets, nerfed healing and malacath.
And all 3 are an issue.
Not everyone wants to play a 40k hp sword and board warden just to outheal the dots you know.
I really am starting to think I'm playing a different game. I get hit by these pretty frequently; they're really not that big a deal. You certainly don't need to be a 40khp sword and board build to see one off. Just to give you a small eg of that, I took one of my toons into cyro yesterday to get rapids on them. My level 18 baby kitty cat to bee precise. Wearing white level 4 training armor. And yes, heading north out of Nikel some nb spams me with hunter's venom. I just roll dodged, put some line of sight between us... and kept running. Sure, it took some health off, but it's not going to kill me.
I think what's going on here is that, because these proc sets generate a lot of ticks, they're filling up people's death recaps and quite often scoring the killing blow. That's why you're getting loads of damage and kills in Bgs. Thing is, what actually did most of the damage to the guy is the couple of big smacks he got from the magsorc over the hill. Who's probably swearing about kill stealing NBs right now. The dots themselves are good - esp with malacarth - but they're not *that* powerful. They're just very visible, because they generate alot of ticks.
1) You weren't trying to fight anyone. In a BG, any time you expose yourself to kill someone, proc set users need only one GCD to lay the pressure on (removing any need to combo the same person, no need to aim or track targets). Even if you hide and outheal behind LOS you're neutralized — can't help your team survive or score from the sidelines.
2) Ability DOTs as just as capable of clogging up recaps but they don't, because they require more GCDs to apply, they're not as powerful, they cost resources, and many can't be applied from range.
This^
Proc sets just apply too much pressure for free. Sure they help less skilled players, but in the hands of a good player these sets dominate.
The amount of work you need to put in to get a kill with proc sets is nothing. Meanwhile stat based builds need to work their butts off to achieve the same result. This was toxic years ago and its toxic now. Why the combat team didn't learn from past mistakes is beyond me.
Make proc sets scale off of your highest offensive stat and call it a day.2 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
I can put on sheer venom and syvarra on a stamblade with no malacath and still walk away with millions of dmg every bg, while passively getting kills.
Procsets are an issue, and malacath is making them worse, but for example on pc EU BGs were always a procfest.
It's really a combination of grossly overbuffed sets, nerfed healing and malacath.
And all 3 are an issue.
Not everyone wants to play a 40k hp sword and board warden just to outheal the dots you know.
I really am starting to think I'm playing a different game. I get hit by these pretty frequently; they're really not that big a deal. You certainly don't need to be a 40khp sword and board build to see one off. Just to give you a small eg of that, I took one of my toons into cyro yesterday to get rapids on them. My level 18 baby kitty cat to bee precise. Wearing white level 4 training armor. And yes, heading north out of Nikel some nb spams me with hunter's venom. I just roll dodged, put some line of sight between us... and kept running. Sure, it took some health off, but it's not going to kill me.
I think what's going on here is that, because these proc sets generate a lot of ticks, they're filling up people's death recaps and quite often scoring the killing blow. That's why you're getting loads of damage and kills in Bgs. Thing is, what actually did most of the damage to the guy is the couple of big smacks he got from the magsorc over the hill. Who's probably swearing about kill stealing NBs right now. The dots themselves are good - esp with malacarth - but they're not *that* powerful. They're just very visible, because they generate alot of ticks.
1) You weren't trying to fight anyone. In a BG, any time you expose yourself to kill someone, proc set users need only one GCD to lay the pressure on (removing any need to combo the same person, no need to aim or track targets). Even if you hide and outheal behind LOS you're neutralized — can't help your team survive or score from the sidelines.
2) Ability DOTs as just as capable of clogging up recaps but they don't, because they require more GCDs to apply, they're not as powerful, they cost resources, and many can't be applied from range.
This^
Proc sets just apply too much pressure for free. Sure they help less skilled players, but in the hands of a good player these sets dominate.
The amount of work you need to put in to get a kill with proc sets is nothing. Meanwhile stat based builds need to work their butts off to achieve the same result. This was toxic years ago and its toxic now. Why the combat team didn't learn from past mistakes is beyond me.
Make proc sets scale off of your highest offensive stat and call it a day.
Not convinced this would solve anything. While I'm sure there are some people who are running with max health and using proc sets to carry them, I'm sure the vast majority of players are still max stam/mag and running proc sets just like they would any other set. And since the majority of offending sets people complain about are DPS sets to begin with, they really aren't going to be hurting for stats. Especially when you consider the majority of complaints are about DPS sets to begin with.1 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭Atherakhia wrote: »FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »People must be playing a different no cp to me. I'd agree that malacath probably needs nerfing - it seems way overpowered for 1 item, all benefit no downside with procs - but if you take that out of the occasion, I don't see the issue with proc sets. A decent player is just going to purge or outheal them - or going to be be tanky enough in the first place. If you're wandering round cyro in your pve gear, fine, I get it, but well, it is pvp....
Ultimately they're just a different approach that bring a lot of variety to the game, to builds. Sure, non proc set users don't like them. But then, soloers don't like zergs, zergs hate ball groups, groups hate gankers etc etc etc Everyone's desperate to nerf every one else's build - but don't seem to get that, taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone's going to look just like them. People keep going down this road calling for nerfs, cyro's going to become a very boring place
I can put on sheer venom and syvarra on a stamblade with no malacath and still walk away with millions of dmg every bg, while passively getting kills.
Procsets are an issue, and malacath is making them worse, but for example on pc EU BGs were always a procfest.
It's really a combination of grossly overbuffed sets, nerfed healing and malacath.
And all 3 are an issue.
Not everyone wants to play a 40k hp sword and board warden just to outheal the dots you know.
I really am starting to think I'm playing a different game. I get hit by these pretty frequently; they're really not that big a deal. You certainly don't need to be a 40khp sword and board build to see one off. Just to give you a small eg of that, I took one of my toons into cyro yesterday to get rapids on them. My level 18 baby kitty cat to bee precise. Wearing white level 4 training armor. And yes, heading north out of Nikel some nb spams me with hunter's venom. I just roll dodged, put some line of sight between us... and kept running. Sure, it took some health off, but it's not going to kill me.
I think what's going on here is that, because these proc sets generate a lot of ticks, they're filling up people's death recaps and quite often scoring the killing blow. That's why you're getting loads of damage and kills in Bgs. Thing is, what actually did most of the damage to the guy is the couple of big smacks he got from the magsorc over the hill. Who's probably swearing about kill stealing NBs right now. The dots themselves are good - esp with malacarth - but they're not *that* powerful. They're just very visible, because they generate alot of ticks.
1) You weren't trying to fight anyone. In a BG, any time you expose yourself to kill someone, proc set users need only one GCD to lay the pressure on (removing any need to combo the same person, no need to aim or track targets). Even if you hide and outheal behind LOS you're neutralized — can't help your team survive or score from the sidelines.
2) Ability DOTs as just as capable of clogging up recaps but they don't, because they require more GCDs to apply, they're not as powerful, they cost resources, and many can't be applied from range.
This^
Proc sets just apply too much pressure for free. Sure they help less skilled players, but in the hands of a good player these sets dominate.
The amount of work you need to put in to get a kill with proc sets is nothing. Meanwhile stat based builds need to work their butts off to achieve the same result. This was toxic years ago and its toxic now. Why the combat team didn't learn from past mistakes is beyond me.
Make proc sets scale off of your highest offensive stat and call it a day.
Not convinced this would solve anything. While I'm sure there are some people who are running with max health and using proc sets to carry them, I'm sure the vast majority of players are still max stam/mag and running proc sets just like they would any other set. And since the majority of offending sets people complain about are DPS sets to begin with, they really aren't going to be hurting for stats. Especially when you consider the majority of complaints are about DPS sets to begin with.
The sets can't crit, and since you're missing two 5-piece bonuses you're losing potentially 600-1100 WD not counting the 20% WD from Major Brutality. That's a lot, obviously depending on what the scaling coefficients are it might be enough to make them usable but not oppressive on DPS builds + useless on max health/sustain builds + encourage mixing proc with stat sets4 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They really need to reduce them, it is so much better to wear proc sets than stat sets ATM. That's the problem for me, it isn't variety as others claim its a meta. Use proc sets or get left behind.
I don't say this ignorantly, I have tested it in duels and excessively in cyrodill. I can't even bare BGs which I previously loved! I want the option to run my stat sets, I enjoy the accomplishment of defeating players with my own skills. I have gone to alkyr desert (pc EU duelling hub)and tried a variety of builds and proc sets are better everytime.
I understand it must be enjoyable for the people using them who aren't used to being able to compete, but they need to be on par with stat sets not better! They need to be a build option, not the meta.
-They shouldn't stack on players only one type of each proc at a time.
-They shouldn't work with malacath
-They need to scale with stats, share a GCD or have diminishing returns when wearing more than one.
One set would still be very powerful and augment your build, but wearing all proc sets shouldn't be optimal.1 -
Hakkanistorm✭✭✭It only comes to mind - limiting the number of Dot on one target in pvp. If the number is exceeded, one replaces the other.0
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KurtAngle2✭✭✭✭Hakkanistorm wrote: »it's absurd
I've already quit for the time being, Purge 24/7 as a healer is not what I'd like to play right now1 -
Gorreck✭✭✭You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.
This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.
Balance is balance; prior to the proc based changes stat dense gear was better, now proc based gear is better.
Neither was, nor is, balance.1 -
Gorreck✭✭✭You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.
This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.
I want a set that will do 100k instant oblivion dmg to any player that uses proc set. It'll be fun for a lot of players and wil have heavy impact on the gameplay.
Honestly if they made a set that reflected 100% of proc damage back on the proccer (just not a set in Heavy please), but equally used a lot of its "stat-budget" to do so, it would be a thing I think with the current meta.1 -
techyeshic✭✭✭✭✭You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.
This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.
I want a set that will do 100k instant oblivion dmg to any player that uses proc set. It'll be fun for a lot of players and wil have heavy impact on the gameplay.
Honestly if they made a set that reflected 100% of proc damage back on the proccer (just not a set in Heavy please), but equally used a lot of its "stat-budget" to do so, it would be a thing I think with the current meta.
I liked that idea back in the first aprocalypse. A curse swap set. Not sure how they code it to not screw DKs or other DOT/debuff builds.Edited by techyeshic on October 11, 2020 4:48PM0
