Proc sets need to be adjusted before the end of the PTS cycle.

MentalxHammer

Hey guys! As we all know, pvp has decended into another oppressively overpowered proc set meta. As has been seen in the past, these metas diminish the skill and quality of pvp drastically.

The ESO community can not suffer through three more months of this meta. Veteran players are already playing less due to aoe tests, and new players will be driven away from pvp, as a feeling of hopelessness will quickly ensue.

Firstmep

Should really make this a poll.

But yes 100% aggree.

relentless_turnip

Yes please! Kill them! Kill them with fire!

OlumoGarbag

Today in BGs I looked on every single death recap and every single one was at least 50% value in proc sets. I did not have a single non proc set killing blow taken. This is the reality, the dev teams need to see battlegrounds this is not how I want group battlegrounds to start with. Every time you think of an creative battleground build, you soon will see it's not nearly as good as proc sets.

Kaysha

You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.

This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.

MincVinyl

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Hey guys! As we all know, pvp has decended into another oppressively overpowered proc set meta. As has been seen in the past, these metas diminish the skill and quality of pvp drastically.

The ESO community can not suffer through three more months of this meta. Veteran players are already playing less due to aoe tests, and new players will be driven away from pvp, as a feeling of hopelessness will quickly ensue.

While I agree, prior we were finally out of the dot meta and into a "Tank" meta and people complained. Now we are in a proc meta with malacath becoming a thing and stats being so inflated you can be built fully into tanking and have equivalent damage to a burst meta by procs alone.

I can't wait to see us go into another "tank" meta with people complaining how they can't kill anyone due to them just being terrible at the game and unable to rely on procs/dots to do the work instead of finding combos and lining up buffs/enchants together.

xWarbrain

Kaysha wrote: »

You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.

This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.

Your gear shouldn't play the game for you though. This proc meta is absurd.

Grimlok_S

On one hand, it is quite satisfying to melt these players with stat based builds while their procs are down.
On the other, it is pretty frustrating to see how much these sets raise the skill floor. Some builds are capable of securing kills with one light attack and ability cast..

To be clear, do when discussing proc sets, are we talking things like master bow, or sets like Sheer Venom?

I'm fine with the first type that procs stats on your character, I take issue with the ones that do damage for you.

Atherakhia

Kaysha wrote: »

You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.

This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.

Which is counter productive when only stamina get access to the fun and exciting sets. If they can't be bothered to do it right, then don't do it at all please.

Now that said, I really don't think a lot of the sets are the problem and simply changing Malacath would likely solve some of the problem. There are obviously exceptions to the rule like Sheer Venom and Unleashed being far too powerful.

relentless_turnip

Yes please! Kill them! Kill them with fire!

Kaysha wrote: »

You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.

This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.

But proc sets bring us closer to a brainless shooter than stat based PvP does. When all of you damage is triggered by the left mouse button, I would call that reminiscent of a shooter. As oppose to the alternative which requires a lot more actions, skill and for most engagement.

A single proc set is fine, they need some sort of shared cooldown to stop three of them going off at once. I also proposed diminishing returns where wearing one proc set would still be as powerful, wearing 2 would lower the tooltip of both etc... Or they should scale with stats with the current tooltips matching a glass cannon esque build.

I have no issue with any set individually it is the ease of stacking them without any investment in damage.

Joy_Division

Kaysha wrote: »

You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.

This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.

Years and years of "boring" stat based gameplay? I dont know what game you are referring to, but it is not ESO with it's long continuous proc history featuring Sloads, Viper's sting, Velidreth, Hunter's Venom, Red Mountain, Caluurian, Azureblight, Valkyn Skoria, Venoumous smite, etc.

MincVinyl

Kaysha wrote: »

You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.

This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.

What about having a set that automatically kills players for you is fun? Armor's intent is to strengthen the player, not be strong for the player. They have always been complained about, because they break the need for having well rounded builds while at the same time breaking the need to actually have player input into combat.

Firstmep

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Today in BGs I looked on every single death recap and every single one was at least 50% value in proc sets. I did not have a single non proc set killing blow taken. This is the reality, the dev teams need to see battlegrounds this is not how I want group battlegrounds to start with. Every time you think of an creative battleground build, you soon will see it's not nearly as good as proc sets.

Only 50%? Lucky you.

Its rare for me to see actual skills on the recap, maybe poison inject.

Kurat

No one says you cant wear proc sets either.
Proc sets give average players a chance.

hexentb16_ESO

I like the more involvement proc sets have in pvp. It makes it more fun for me and I don't really care if I die to a proc set or an ability. A death is a death.

Actually, I find it easier to deal with people relying on proc sets if I think things through.

Juhasow

Kaysha wrote: »

You know, for a lot of players proc sets are fun and a welcome change after years and years of boring stat based gameplay.

This is an MMO, not a first person shooter. The gear that you farm is supposed to have a heavy impact on your gameplay.

I want a set that will do 100k instant oblivion dmg to any player that uses proc set. It'll be fun for a lot of players and wil have heavy impact on the gameplay.

Vetixio

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Yes please! Kill them! Kill them with fire!

100% agree they should remove them all. They ruin PVP and are mostly not very good/not really used in PVE. Just rework them all E.G Venomous Smite - Adds 2 seconds to your Poison Damage abilities. Caluurions - Add 100 Spell/Weapon Damage to your Fire/Frost/Shock/Disease abilities. Sheer Venom - Add 400 Weapon Damage to your execute abilities. Unleashed Terror - When you deal damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you cause the enemy to take 30% extra damage from Bleed abilities for 10 seconds can occur once every 20 seconds. IDK just some ideas, but seriously tho proc sets need looking into they are so easy for the attacker yet hard for the defender to deal with.

YandereGirlfriend

Not to mention the equally toxic toll that these sets likely have on performance with having to track 3 different proc cooldowns per character and that's on top of whatever the actual proc condition that the sets have. So many unnecessary function calls and database queries that you simply don't have with static, stat-based sets.

But if we simply must have procs, then I am much more sympathetic to stat-based procs that open up or enhance a burst window. You at least have to play somewhat competently to benefit from those types of proc bonuses.

Atherakhia

Kurat wrote: »

No one says you cant wear proc sets either.
Proc sets give average players a chance.

Aside from the fact that most of the sets aren't mag friendly and the few proc sets available to mag are inferior to the stamina ones in every way?

I mean, I'd love for Icy Conjuror to be the equivalent to sheer venom that triggered off a minor debuff (since ZOS also refuses to give most mag an execute). I'd love for for the newly updated Oblivion's Foe set to make the DOT an AE automatically on the target. I'd love for any of the monster destruction staff sets to apply a 30k DOT instead of the laughably bad one we're getting on the PTS.

There is an enormous disparity between mag and stam proc sets and given ZOS' track record, they'll likely nerf them around the same time they get around to implementing a good mag one just in time for the meta to shift to some new meta stam set that comes out in that patch.

JayKwellen

Firstmep wrote: »

Only 50%? Lucky you.

Its rare for me to see actual skills on the recap, maybe poison inject.

Oh I see poison inject all the time. Of course, it's almost always accompanied by hunters venom and venomous smite. Sometimes a snipe too, just for good measure.

Now that I'm playing on a magblade without stealth and without a purge (and no, "jUsT sLoT pUrGe" isn't an answer either) it's really been a good time.

relentless_turnip

The scary thing is this is the last update until February? So if they don't change anything we will stay in a proc meta until then... They probably won't do anything else with performance until then...

ecru

In my opinion nocp is close to unplayable and will be completely unplayable soon as players catch onto which proc sets are good and which are mediocre. I still see players using very weak sets when they could be using much better sets, and when they get the time to farm those sets, nocp will be a terrible experience. Imagine every stam player wearing plague slinger and eating 2.5k x 5 every time you attack someone and you can get an idea of what will happen eventually. Imagine getting into a 1v2 and eating 5k dps from two plague slingers and having to heal 25k damage over 5 seconds just from procs in nocp? lmao.

I have some very, very oppressive builds that kill people in bg's while I stand there and block and heal. Those will be meta soon if nothing is changed.

relentless_turnip

ecru wrote: »

In my opinion nocp is close to unplayable and will be completely unplayable soon as players catch onto which proc sets are good and which are mediocre. I still see players using very weak sets when they could be using much better sets, and when they get the time to farm those sets, nocp will be a terrible experience. Imagine every stam player wearing plague slinger and eating 2.5k x 5 every time you attack someone and you can get an idea of what will happen eventually. Imagine getting into a 1v2 and eating 5k dps from two plague slingers and having to heal 25k damage over 5 seconds just from procs in nocp? lmao.

I have some very, very oppressive builds that kill people in bg's while I stand there and block and heal. Those will be meta soon if nothing is changed.

I played BGs during the first couple of weeks this patch and hated it. Tried it again last week it's at least 10 times worse... Everyone had over 30k health and nothing but procs and defensive skills. I actually quit, which I have never done before.

My medium and light builds still work in cyrodill where I also only really play no cp. I would rather play cyrodill anyway, but with performance being as terrible as it is there's no enjoyment to be had. I don't even mind the tests... There is no where to PvP at the moment that doesn't feel unplayable for one reason or another...

HankTwo

Agreed. The stronger proc sets should either be flat out nerfed, or proc sets in general reworked (for example with max stat scaling).

Firstmep

JayKwellen wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Only 50%? Lucky you.

Its rare for me to see actual skills on the recap, maybe poison inject.

Oh I see poison inject all the time. Of course, it's almost always accompanied by hunters venom and venomous smite. Sometimes a snipe too, just for good measure.

Now that I'm playing on a magblade without stealth and without a purge (and no, "jUsT sLoT pUrGe" isn't an answer either) it's really been a good time.

You know what's funny is that Templar purge is only 500 Magicka cheaper at base than efficient cleanse.
Meanwhile necros can self purge 4 negative effects for a small amount of health.
But ppl still think templars do well in this meta cuz they have a cleanse.

Firstmep

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

In my opinion nocp is close to unplayable and will be completely unplayable soon as players catch onto which proc sets are good and which are mediocre. I still see players using very weak sets when they could be using much better sets, and when they get the time to farm those sets, nocp will be a terrible experience. Imagine every stam player wearing plague slinger and eating 2.5k x 5 every time you attack someone and you can get an idea of what will happen eventually. Imagine getting into a 1v2 and eating 5k dps from two plague slingers and having to heal 25k damage over 5 seconds just from procs in nocp? lmao.

I have some very, very oppressive builds that kill people in bg's while I stand there and block and heal. Those will be meta soon if nothing is changed.

I played BGs during the first couple of weeks this patch and hated it. Tried it again last week it's at least 10 times worse... Everyone had over 30k health and nothing but procs and defensive skills. I actually quit, which I have never done before.

My medium and light builds still work in cyrodill where I also only really play no cp. I would rather play cyrodill anyway, but with performance being as terrible as it is there's no enjoyment to be had. I don't even mind the tests... There is no where to PvP at the moment that doesn't feel unplayable for one reason or another...

I've converted my magplar to full on meta slave, cyrodiils crest, malubeth, overwhelming and malacath.
I can actually survive for stupidly long even on a Templar with that.
And I still do enough dmg to kill ppl in bgs, even with just 1proc and mala.
Apart from nightblades, most classes can't really get away with full on proc tard setups.
I see a lot of heavy Stam users rock crimson twilight as a happy middle ground(offensive proc with defensive aspect as well).
Also a ton of ppl just rock ranged procs and sit at max range, regardless of class.
At least some of this is going to go away with group bgs, where teams can guarantee a dedicated healer.

Abstraqt

Yeah, all skill and tactical gameplay decisions have been ruined since you can just light attack and proc like 3 different things. The damage on these procs is just nuts, and what's worse is zos keeps bringing more and more out. It's like they want poison dot builds to be the meta


And for people saying just purge them, there needs to be a dot immunity period after a purge cus they can just light attack and put them all back on you

UrbanMonk

There are 2 opinions when it comes to proc sets.

1. A lot of pkayers dont like it because they find it reduces the skill level and consider it free damage with no strings attached.
2. A lot of pkayers find Proc Sets FUN to play, however I'm yet to see an argument why they are fun compared to stat based sets. I'd assume the worst and say becasue those players dont have time to play the game intensively to get more skilled amd the proc sets bring them close to compete against skilled PvP players....or atleast they think it does.

The best compromise I see is that the Proc Sets should share a cooldown. So for dot based procs if you have sheer venom active, you can't proc smite, or for instant damage based sets, if you proc callurion, you can't have another proc during the cooldown of 1st set or maybe 5-6 sec..and during these cooldowns you monster masks can not be procd either if they are damage based. Sets like EG or BS should not be part of this.

And then there is problem of health based damage sets such as Harbinger. This should also be on coolodown, even if CD is not shared with multiple opponents.

Tank meta is back because ,the amount of free damage that is coming from sets, is way more than the skills itself. Not a single dot from DK will do same amount of damage as sheer venom. Unless you build for it, and at that point it keeps getting trickier with resources amd stats, compared to where you can slap Sheer and call it a day.

So IMO, a compromise is needed where you do not curb the direct strength of the proc sets but bring them in the same range of damage skills do.

A set should not do more damage than an actual skill.

hakan

i dont want all of them to be removed since some of them opens up other playstyles but yeah this is tiring. losing 400wd doesnt matter when you can deal 9k dmg from proc every ten seconds without using gcd, resource whatever.

and to the guy whos asking which is what, i dont think masters bow is proc set. or clever alch, eternal hunt etc.

just pure stats would be boring too.

NeillMcAttack

I feel like we can’t really judge the meta until group BG’s are returned. The game should never be balanced around solo play IMO, and if you try to balance around both they will both lack in diversity.

Yes, it sucks to look at a recap of, syvarra’s, sheer venom, and unleashed terror. You are going to struggle on the majority of specs when 2-3 people drop these highly potent dots on you. But we must at least try to find out if there is some healthy group play possible. Because when you think about it, one purge every 10 seconds would negate 2-3 players 5 piece bonus’s if a group tries to run this in group play. I can’t see a Meta, at a competitive level, relying on this totally counterable strategy.

And in fairness, if you were outnumbered by 2-3 competent players, procs or no procs, you are likely screwed anyway. This is just to make PvP more accessible for solo noobs.

BohnT2

We went through enough proc meta that everyone knows they simply aren't fun.
Your own input is devalued by the sheer strength of sets additionally it makes classes less relevant as the main damage for all specs are the same procs.

People complain about Tank meta and say procs are here to combat tanks but completely fail to see that the best way to use procs is running a tank build as procs don't scale with your damage or max resource.
You can stack 48k HP hit people for 3.6k dizzying and have procs hit people for 6k with no effort, the enemies will die and won't have a single chance of fighting back.

Procs also heavily reduce build variety and CP allocations:
Spell/ weapon damage and max stat aren't needed as procs don't scale with them in the first place

Crit and crit damage? Irrelevant you run malacath anyway

CP affecting crit? Irrelevant malacath exists

Sustain? Well there's no need to use as many skills as people who rely on their skills doing damage

So you end up with builds that can ignore a huge part of what other builds have to build for and still deal more damage, why bother getting 600-900 more damage on a dizzying swing when a proc set deals more damage and you can just run a defensive set along with it.


Procs have to undergo several changes:
Scale with your offensive stats, this makes stacking 3 procs or 2 procs and a defensive set a lot less effective.

Malacath should only work on light, heavy attacks and abilities not on glyphs, poisons or proc sets

Unavoidable procs have to be removed or counterplay should actually work, sets like venomous smite or vate 2h next patch are determined to always apply there is no chance of them not hitting because the cooldown only applies after the effect hits meaning you always get a benefit, your enemy can't avoid all your damage or all your heavy attacks.
We had this back when viper, old red mountain or tremorscale were around and those sets have been directly nerfed for this reason that they had no worthwhile counterplay