Proc sets need to be adjusted before the end of the PTS cycle.

Sahidom

They should seriously consider removing any additive bonuses to the original tool tips on proc sets from sources, such as CP, offense resource pools, w/s Damage... This would lower the proc damage down but still buffed by m/M buffs and Malcath ring. Fairly straightforward adjustment. This avoids creating any extra GCD on sets outside their original design. This would also allow ZOS to revisit any balance adjustments on raw stats of the set.

Atherakhia

They could also convert the remaining sets to a proc-per-minute as opposed to a proc-per-hit, nerf the sets that have separate cooldowns per target (Sheer Venom, Leeching, Etc), and attach a cooldown modifier to the battle spirit debuff. A lot of the proc sets wouldn't be so oppressive in PvP if their cooldowns weren't so trivially short.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sahidom wrote: »

They should seriously consider removing any additive bonuses to the original tool tips on proc sets from sources, such as CP, offense resource pools, w/s Damage... This would lower the proc damage down but still buffed by m/M buffs and Malcath ring. Fairly straightforward adjustment. This avoids creating any extra GCD on sets outside their original design. This would also allow ZOS to revisit any balance adjustments on raw stats of the set.

@Sahidom
This must be lost in translation. Otherwise you're living under a rock.

The main issue with proc sets is that they aren't affected by offense pools, weapon and spell damage but by malacath's ring. This is what allowes unhealthy builds in the first place. I can go full on defense with Xk health and still do the same damage as a all out glass cannon.

If I had to build for damage from procs just as I have to build for dmg from skills I couldn't cheese a health tank with free damage anymore. But as it's for now I can ignore resources, dmg stats and crit and just go for defense.

katorga

Realistically, as long as performance is in the dumpster, high health, high passive mitigation, and proc sets are the only reliable way to play. It gives you a margin for server error.

wheem_ESO

Firstmep wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Only 50%? Lucky you.

Its rare for me to see actual skills on the recap, maybe poison inject.

Oh I see poison inject all the time. Of course, it's almost always accompanied by hunters venom and venomous smite. Sometimes a snipe too, just for good measure.

Now that I'm playing on a magblade without stealth and without a purge (and no, "jUsT sLoT pUrGe" isn't an answer either) it's really been a good time.

You know what's funny is that Templar purge is only 500 Magicka cheaper at base than efficient cleanse.
Meanwhile necros can self purge 4 negative effects for a small amount of health.
But ppl still think templars do well in this meta cuz they have a cleanse.

The health cost is much more noticeable in no-CP than some people seem to believe. I can get popped with 1 Poison Injection + Light Attack, and by the time I can cleanse the effects off (even if I get LOS pretty much immediately), I'm frequently looking at having to cast 2-4 of my "burst heals" in order to recover.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I feel like we can’t really judge the meta until group BG’s are returned. The game should never be balanced around solo play IMO, and if you try to balance around both they will both lack in diversity.

Yes, it sucks to look at a recap of, syvarra’s, sheer venom, and unleashed terror. You are going to struggle on the majority of specs when 2-3 people drop these highly potent dots on you. But we must at least try to find out if there is some healthy group play possible. Because when you think about it, one purge every 10 seconds would negate 2-3 players 5 piece bonus’s if a group tries to run this in group play. I can’t see a Meta, at a competitive level, relying on this totally counterable strategy.

And in fairness, if you were outnumbered by 2-3 competent players, procs or no procs, you are likely screwed anyway. This is just to make PvP more accessible for solo noobs.

I have to disagree - I don't think it's a good idea for ZOS to try and balance PvP around groups for the foreseeable future. First of all, there's no actual ranking system. And secondly, the current state of class balance is nowhere near good enough to try and build things around groups.

Waffennacht

Stamina gets executes, dots, and spammable... Then they get some of the best proc sets.

Mag on the other hand has a few decent proc sets that actually compliment classes and fill gaps.

Yet both are treated equally here.

Every complaint that actually named a set has named stamina sets.

IF the weapon abilities didnt already include everything needed to fill in class gaps, then stam procs wouldn't be OP.

Malacath seems OP on stam procs and seems necessary on mag procs.

Oh and without some form of Procs Magden, Mag NB, and Mag DK (even with Procs lol @ mag Necro) are all severely lacking to any others.

MentalxHammer

Grimlok_S wrote: »

On one hand, it is quite satisfying to melt these players with stat based builds while their procs are down.
On the other, it is pretty frustrating to see how much these sets raise the skill floor. Some builds are capable of securing kills with one light attack and ability cast..

To be clear, do when discussing proc sets, are we talking things like master bow, or sets like Sheer Venom?

I'm fine with the first type that procs stats on your character, I take issue with the ones that do damage for you.

I am referring specifically to damage proc sets

MentalxHammer

To he honest, the real issue here is likely proc damage sets intersction with Malacaths. As many know, proc sets were nerfed long ago by having their ability to crit taken away. Obviously, the main drawback to Malacaths is that it disables your crits.

When most of a players dps is coming from proc sets, this drawback becomes nonexistent. This is a seeming oversight that has generated a dominant meta leading to almost complete uniformity in pvp builds.

Many of these problem sets existed before Malacaths, with little impact on the meta. I urge ZOS dev's to take a look at the circumvention of Malacaths drawback through proc sets, and perhaps make adjustments to this objectively broken interaction.

karios525

Proc sets are fine as they are, it is the interaction with the malcath piece which needs removing. Getting tired of the same old nerf threads, smite already has a cool down as does surge, the latter of which doesn't do much damage anyway . Don't like them? Man up and build tanky builds, next patch the meta will probably shift anyway

NeillMcAttack

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Only 50%? Lucky you.

Its rare for me to see actual skills on the recap, maybe poison inject.

Oh I see poison inject all the time. Of course, it's almost always accompanied by hunters venom and venomous smite. Sometimes a snipe too, just for good measure.

Now that I'm playing on a magblade without stealth and without a purge (and no, "jUsT sLoT pUrGe" isn't an answer either) it's really been a good time.

You know what's funny is that Templar purge is only 500 Magicka cheaper at base than efficient cleanse.
Meanwhile necros can self purge 4 negative effects for a small amount of health.
But ppl still think templars do well in this meta cuz they have a cleanse.

The health cost is much more noticeable in no-CP than some people seem to believe. I can get popped with 1 Poison Injection + Light Attack, and by the time I can cleanse the effects off (even if I get LOS pretty much immediately), I'm frequently looking at having to cast 2-4 of my "burst heals" in order to recover.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I feel like we can’t really judge the meta until group BG’s are returned. The game should never be balanced around solo play IMO, and if you try to balance around both they will both lack in diversity.

Yes, it sucks to look at a recap of, syvarra’s, sheer venom, and unleashed terror. You are going to struggle on the majority of specs when 2-3 people drop these highly potent dots on you. But we must at least try to find out if there is some healthy group play possible. Because when you think about it, one purge every 10 seconds would negate 2-3 players 5 piece bonus’s if a group tries to run this in group play. I can’t see a Meta, at a competitive level, relying on this totally counterable strategy.

And in fairness, if you were outnumbered by 2-3 competent players, procs or no procs, you are likely screwed anyway. This is just to make PvP more accessible for solo noobs.

I have to disagree - I don't think it's a good idea for ZOS to try and balance PvP around groups for the foreseeable future. First of all, there's no actual ranking system. And secondly, the current state of class balance is nowhere near good enough to try and build things around groups.

Not a good idea to balance around group play, in a game based on group play!?. And which classes do you feel are the most imbalanced?

BohnT2

karios525 wrote: »

Proc sets are fine as they are, it is the interaction with the malcath piece which needs removing. Getting tired of the same old nerf threads, smite already has a cool down as does surge, the latter of which doesn't do much damage anyway . Don't like them? Man up and build tanky builds, next patch the meta will probably shift anyway

The meta won't shift, people already build tanky because procs give them the option to do so while still having more damage than offensive stat focused builds

Firstmep

Waffennacht wrote: »

Stamina gets executes, dots, and spammable... Then they get some of the best proc sets.

Mag on the other hand has a few decent proc sets that actually compliment classes and fill gaps.

Yet both are treated equally here.

Every complaint that actually named a set has named stamina sets.

IF the weapon abilities didnt already include everything needed to fill in class gaps, then stam procs wouldn't be OP.

Malacath seems OP on stam procs and seems necessary on mag procs.

Oh and without some form of Procs Magden, Mag NB, and Mag DK (even with Procs lol @ mag Necro) are all severely lacking to any others.

I know a few ppl that rock max Stat based magdens in bgs with balorgh and master lighting staff and they hit super hard, especially when they pop northern.
Magden is a great group class, you have solid off heals, good aoe burst and one of the best offensive/defensive ultimates in the game.
MagDK doesn't have to rely on procs to be relevant, you can build for high max stats and poop out 7k+ molten whips and leaps like it's nobody's business, and have your coag heal for so much that it puts even petsorcs to shame.

BohnT2 wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

Proc sets are fine as they are, it is the interaction with the malcath piece which needs removing. Getting tired of the same old nerf threads, smite already has a cool down as does surge, the latter of which doesn't do much damage anyway . Don't like them? Man up and build tanky builds, next patch the meta will probably shift anyway

The meta won't shift, people already build tanky because procs give them the option to do so while still having more damage than offensive stat focused builds

Yes, and to be fair not everyone rocksmalacath with procsets, plenty of speed ring users, especially the ones rocking dot sets like venomous etc.
They really need to make procsets like skills with the same scaling, that way they would have a much easier time balancing and adding new procs in the future.

Joy_Division

Kurat wrote: »

No one says you cant wear proc sets either.
Proc sets give average players a chance.

The problem isn;t average players wearing proc sets. They'll still lose. The problem is when good players wear them. It's also a problem when someone who wants to get into PvP gets discouraged because they get deleted by proc sets without being able to do anything about it.

Atherakhia

Joy_Division wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

No one says you cant wear proc sets either.
Proc sets give average players a chance.

The problem isn;t average players wearing proc sets. They'll still lose. The problem is when good players wear them. It's also a problem when someone who wants to get into PvP gets discouraged because they get deleted by proc sets without being able to do anything about it.

No, it's all of them.

When you go up against a BG team where all 4 people are using Maelstrom 2h, Unleashed, and Venomous Smite, it gets out of hand. And unfortunately this is what it has turned into. Everyone who plays stam is using 2 if not 3 proc sets and mag simply don't exist because ZOS determined Mag doesn't deserve proc sets in the same league as stam.

Recapitated

MentalxHammer wrote: »

To he honest, the real issue here is likely proc damage sets intersction with Malacaths. As many know, proc sets were nerfed long ago by having their ability to crit taken away. Obviously, the main drawback to Malacaths is that it disables your crits.

When most of a players dps is coming from proc sets, this drawback becomes nonexistent. This is a seeming oversight that has generated a dominant meta leading to almost complete uniformity in pvp builds.

Many of these problem sets existed before Malacaths, with little impact on the meta. I urge ZOS dev's to take a look at the circumvention of Malacaths drawback through proc sets, and perhaps make adjustments to this objectively broken interaction.

It's not just Malacath, last patch had procs but you're having way more problems this patch — they're actually dominant now. Tons of proc sets were buffed recently including Maelstrom 2H (availability and damage) and sheer venom (execute added maybe tooltip changed). We saw this coming from one PTS cycle away.

idk

Firstmep wrote: »

Should really make this a poll.

But yes 100% aggree.

If Zos were wise they would not pay attention to forum polls and focus on threads and posts that provide constructive, well-thought feedback. Forum polls are junk science for starters, do not attempt to reflect the player community, and often times are biased.

wheem_ESO

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Only 50%? Lucky you.

Its rare for me to see actual skills on the recap, maybe poison inject.

Oh I see poison inject all the time. Of course, it's almost always accompanied by hunters venom and venomous smite. Sometimes a snipe too, just for good measure.

Now that I'm playing on a magblade without stealth and without a purge (and no, "jUsT sLoT pUrGe" isn't an answer either) it's really been a good time.

You know what's funny is that Templar purge is only 500 Magicka cheaper at base than efficient cleanse.
Meanwhile necros can self purge 4 negative effects for a small amount of health.
But ppl still think templars do well in this meta cuz they have a cleanse.

The health cost is much more noticeable in no-CP than some people seem to believe. I can get popped with 1 Poison Injection + Light Attack, and by the time I can cleanse the effects off (even if I get LOS pretty much immediately), I'm frequently looking at having to cast 2-4 of my "burst heals" in order to recover.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I feel like we can’t really judge the meta until group BG’s are returned. The game should never be balanced around solo play IMO, and if you try to balance around both they will both lack in diversity.

Yes, it sucks to look at a recap of, syvarra’s, sheer venom, and unleashed terror. You are going to struggle on the majority of specs when 2-3 people drop these highly potent dots on you. But we must at least try to find out if there is some healthy group play possible. Because when you think about it, one purge every 10 seconds would negate 2-3 players 5 piece bonus’s if a group tries to run this in group play. I can’t see a Meta, at a competitive level, relying on this totally counterable strategy.

And in fairness, if you were outnumbered by 2-3 competent players, procs or no procs, you are likely screwed anyway. This is just to make PvP more accessible for solo noobs.

I have to disagree - I don't think it's a good idea for ZOS to try and balance PvP around groups for the foreseeable future. First of all, there's no actual ranking system. And secondly, the current state of class balance is nowhere near good enough to try and build things around groups.

Not a good idea to balance around group play, in a game based on group play!?. And which classes do you feel are the most imbalanced?

Have you ever played premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds, back when group queues were a thing? You can't really balance the game around everyone having a dedicated healer on standby, Harmony bombing, etc...At least not if you want non-premade fights to be remotely enjoyable.

And when it comes to class imbalance; Magicka Necromancer is still hot garbage (won't even be particularly useful for Harmony bombing teams when the Colossus' Major Vulnerability gets nerfed), Bombard spam is still way too strong, and the game is often referred to as "Elder Stamina Online" for a reason.

As someone who has played Magicka Necromancer as a main since Elsweyr's early access, I have to roll my eyes every time I see forum complaints about Stamina-Class-X being inferior to Stamina-Classes-Y-and-Z...they're all borderline gods compared to some Magicka builds. Even the vaunted Magicka Sorcerer falls behind its Stamina counterpart in organized groups.

Solariken

Honestly I'd be happy if procs just couldn't stack. So if I have Sheer Venom on me and another guy tags me with SV, it just refreshes the DOT instead of putting 2 DOTs on me.

I'm really tired of never being able to do anything but spam heals and pray because I've got 2 Unleashed Terrors, 2 Venomous Smite, and 3 Sheer Venom all ticking on me constantly.

Cinbri

Lets be real, chances that something will be done during pts are equal to almost zero.

NeillMcAttack

wheem_ESO wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Only 50%? Lucky you.

Its rare for me to see actual skills on the recap, maybe poison inject.

Oh I see poison inject all the time. Of course, it's almost always accompanied by hunters venom and venomous smite. Sometimes a snipe too, just for good measure.

Now that I'm playing on a magblade without stealth and without a purge (and no, "jUsT sLoT pUrGe" isn't an answer either) it's really been a good time.

You know what's funny is that Templar purge is only 500 Magicka cheaper at base than efficient cleanse.
Meanwhile necros can self purge 4 negative effects for a small amount of health.
But ppl still think templars do well in this meta cuz they have a cleanse.

The health cost is much more noticeable in no-CP than some people seem to believe. I can get popped with 1 Poison Injection + Light Attack, and by the time I can cleanse the effects off (even if I get LOS pretty much immediately), I'm frequently looking at having to cast 2-4 of my "burst heals" in order to recover.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I feel like we can’t really judge the meta until group BG’s are returned. The game should never be balanced around solo play IMO, and if you try to balance around both they will both lack in diversity.

Yes, it sucks to look at a recap of, syvarra’s, sheer venom, and unleashed terror. You are going to struggle on the majority of specs when 2-3 people drop these highly potent dots on you. But we must at least try to find out if there is some healthy group play possible. Because when you think about it, one purge every 10 seconds would negate 2-3 players 5 piece bonus’s if a group tries to run this in group play. I can’t see a Meta, at a competitive level, relying on this totally counterable strategy.

And in fairness, if you were outnumbered by 2-3 competent players, procs or no procs, you are likely screwed anyway. This is just to make PvP more accessible for solo noobs.

I have to disagree - I don't think it's a good idea for ZOS to try and balance PvP around groups for the foreseeable future. First of all, there's no actual ranking system. And secondly, the current state of class balance is nowhere near good enough to try and build things around groups.

Not a good idea to balance around group play, in a game based on group play!?. And which classes do you feel are the most imbalanced?

Have you ever played premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds, back when group queues were a thing? You can't really balance the game around everyone having a dedicated healer on standby, Harmony bombing, etc...At least not if you want non-premade fights to be remotely enjoyable.

And when it comes to class imbalance; Magicka Necromancer is still hot garbage (won't even be particularly useful for Harmony bombing teams when the Colossus' Major Vulnerability gets nerfed), Bombard spam is still way too strong, and the game is often referred to as "Elder Stamina Online" for a reason.

As someone who has played Magicka Necromancer as a main since Elsweyr's early access, I have to roll my eyes every time I see forum complaints about Stamina-Class-X being inferior to Stamina-Classes-Y-and-Z...they're all borderline gods compared to some Magicka builds. Even the vaunted Magicka Sorcerer falls behind its Stamina counterpart in organized groups.

“You can’t really balance the game around everyone having a dedicated healer on standby”.
So every mag class should need a resto back bar, every stam should only have vigor? I don’t know how to respond honestly. I feel like we are playing two completely different games. You should try out hunters arena: legends. I think it’s more the kind of game you are looking for.

AyaDark

Proc sets are not a problem.
2 proc sets just can be negated by 1 defensive set. Or purged.

If it is 4 on 1 fight, yes it kills, but why do you think that you must kill 4 people solo ?

1 on 1 player in 2 attack proc sets is always weeker.

And proc sets were always used before patch to, so what is the problem?

I kill people with proc sets more easely.

But they are playable now. They just were useless before. Now they are playable, but it is not win button, 1 on 1 i always kill them.

d3adpain

AyaDark wrote: »

Proc sets are not a problem.
2 proc sets just can be negated by 1 defensive set. Or purged.

If it is 4 on 1 fight, yes it kills, but why do you think that you must kill 4 people solo ?

1 on 1 player in 2 attack proc sets is always weeker.

And proc sets were always used before patch to, so what is the problem?

I kill people with proc sets more easely.

But they are playable now. They just were useless before. Now they are playable, but it is not win button, 1 on 1 i always kill them.

yeah yeah its balanced lol, when gear does more dmg then abilities and they make its easly proc so boomers can kill people by just smashing the keyboard without thought or need to learn the game, such a joke 1.3k bb
great balance and thanks you so much for listening to the community zos
can't wait for new world to come out ,this game went from being good competitive mmorpg and became so bad and boring
this proc meta, block changes that made the game clunky , ultimate cast time they killed pvp already so many people left
and the people who still play just don't have thing else to play for the moment

techyeshic

It's even gotten to where procs are pouring into CP pvp now. Saw zergs full of big red circles and even running stun procs just trying to stand around and hope procs take care of it. Some hilariously bad, but every once in a while, several connect.

Firstmep

Cinbri wrote: »

Lets be real, chances that something will be done during pts are equal to almost zero.

Looks a lot like Zos has finally found a way to empower bad/new players in a way they could never before.
I wouldn't be surprised if down the road they tried to nerf crit to the point where even in Pve procsets would thrive.

Qbiken

NOCP is getting absurd at this point. Every fight you enter is plauged with overperforming procsets. The moment you go out from a keep or away from LoS (Line of Sight) you´re instantly bombarded with poison injection, snipe, multiple sheer venom, hunters venom, syvarra´s scale and unleashed terror. Even magicka builds run some of the previous mentioned sets due to how absurdly strong they are. Even when I play my magplar it´s impossible to outcleanse or deal with all DoT procs. If that´s not a testimony of how absurdly broken the state of PvP and these proc sets are, I don´t know what is.

There needs to be a cap of 1 instance for each DoT procset that can be applied to a player in PvP. On top of that we need malacath to not buff sources of damage that can´t inheritably crit to begin with. NOCP is turning into a competition on who can stack the most procsets and apply them first.

Juhasow

Cinbri wrote: »

Lets be real, chances that something will be done during pts are equal to almost zero.

Propably even less.

wheem_ESO

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Have you ever played premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds, back when group queues were a thing? You can't really balance the game around everyone having a dedicated healer on standby, Harmony bombing, etc...At least not if you want non-premade fights to be remotely enjoyable.

And when it comes to class imbalance; Magicka Necromancer is still hot garbage (won't even be particularly useful for Harmony bombing teams when the Colossus' Major Vulnerability gets nerfed), Bombard spam is still way too strong, and the game is often referred to as "Elder Stamina Online" for a reason.

As someone who has played Magicka Necromancer as a main since Elsweyr's early access, I have to roll my eyes every time I see forum complaints about Stamina-Class-X being inferior to Stamina-Classes-Y-and-Z...they're all borderline gods compared to some Magicka builds. Even the vaunted Magicka Sorcerer falls behind its Stamina counterpart in organized groups.

“You can’t really balance the game around everyone having a dedicated healer on standby”.
So every mag class should need a resto back bar, every stam should only have vigor? I don’t know how to respond honestly. I feel like we are playing two completely different games. You should try out hunters arena: legends. I think it’s more the kind of game you are looking for.

Do you honestly think that ESO's PvP should be balanced around dedicated premade groups, when there's no real "infrastructure" to support said groups?

You didn't answer my previous question, by the way - have you ever played premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds? I have, though it's obviously been a while. It wasn't uncommon for there to be matches that went the full 15 minutes with < 10 deaths total - across all three teams combined. Even then, some of those deaths only happened due to environmental effects like people being knocked into lava or off of ledges.

Most of the time the matches were glorified games of Ring Around the Roses, with everyone being desperate not to be caught out of position. If a team ever did get caught in a bad spot, there would be a brief flurry of combat with some Dawnbreaker dumping in a Negate, where some kills might be scored. And that was playing with numerous house rules, like only 1 defensive ultimate per team, numerous abilities and sets being banned, etc...

If you think it's bad for Stamina builds to "only" have Vigor (though in many/most cases that's not actually true), wait until you see what the self healing would be if PvP were balanced around the assumption that you'd have at least 1 dedicated healer in tow.

olsborg

IMO proccsets have nothing to do in a game like ESO, at least not in the current version. Its just too much dmg for doing too little work. ESO is/was/should be a game about skill, progression, getting better and improving yourself. With sets like Hunters Venom, Crimson Twilight, Sheer Venom, Caalurions bleh bleh.. combat is just dumbed down to ridiculousness.

Aznarb

Nah, if anything buff proc set, way to much set in this game are useless, make them all viable.
If anything made a different stat for skill, passive and specific pvp set so we don't destroy pve every single time Pvper complain about everything...

This game as always be a total mess in PvP and nothing gonna change. As soon as they'll nerf proc set, the exact same people will come back and QQ about something else that killed them, endless fight.

Made PvP a different mode or remove it, simple.

Recapitated

Aznarb wrote: »

Nah, if anything buff proc set, way to much set in this game are useless, make them all viable.

Cool, let's make Adept Rider instakill players whenever you roll your reticle over them; the game will make no sense but those who don't quit won't have to cope with all these useless sets -- and isn't that what matters in the end?

There's no sense in using Sheer Venom in PVE. You can, and you'll be doing pretty bad, and I guess if for some reason you were doing that and Sheer Venom gets nerfed you'll be doing worse. So what? Does every set have to be viable in PVE? I don't get it, it's like if Siroria was overperforming in PVE and anytime someone asked to nerf it I were like "Well I like to be wearing Siroria when I die in BGs so don't touch it, possibly just delete PVE"