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This just shows how little ZOS Cares about the veteran players
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Astrid✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »To exploit you have to know that the result is unintended/unforseen. We have to assume that everything zos give us is intended, until they state otherwise.
Like the 100k crowns that suddenly appeared in some people's accounts?
When you are getting results so good they are breaking the game content, making it stupidly easy... you know you've found an exploit. Sure it may be a legit build, but no way it was "intended".
If you were playing a pen and paper game with friend around the table and one of you minimaxed to get a stupidly good result, the game master would be having a conversation with not just you but the whole group. Either they vetoed it, or they discussed whether to allow it.
It's not the game that's broken. It's the attitude of that one player.
For that game to be fun it had to give choices. But with great breadth of choice comes great responsibility. If a group ruined their gameplay experience, it was because they lost control of it and let some or everyone exploit without knowing how to handle it or stopping it before it got started.
The sort of things that would happen to ruin a game in pen and paper are happening here and causing strife in the player base. If one player was ultrapowerful and the rest didn't get to do anything, how fun is it for everyone? Same thing here in dungeons when some DD kills everything before newbs get to do anything and then he starts shaming them.
What we don't get here: Communication from ZOS. They lost control of the combat system long ago and they didn't have an up front conversation about it.
They saw this happening but they danced around it whenever they brought it up, instead of directly saying there's a problem they don't know how to fix without removing the fun for everyone.
And whenever there's a problem they don't know how to fix, they just clam up and say nothing, even for gross exploits like AP Boosting. So hiding behind "until [ZOS] says otherwise" is just exploiter excuses when you know how ZOS is dysfunctional in this regard.
All those people complaining about the game being too easy because of their remarkable build or button mashing or whatever that lets you one-shot things or shortcut a raid boss to half the mechanics or what not -- if you're not satisfied with the game now, you did it to yourself. Don't ruin it for everyone else.
And exploitation ruins the game for everyone. We've already seen it in the various exploits in Cyrodiil.
So what you’re basically saying is you want the game to be dumbed down, every meta combination of things to be completely removed or made redundant. I’m afraid to tell you that will never happen - as something will always take its place. That and as I said earlier, just because someone’s running a meta build doesn’t guarantee them god mode. It takes a combination of setup and player to make something you’d claim is an exploit. If you remove the gear, the good player is still there and will find new alternatives that perform to the same level or maybe even better.
If you’re unsatisfied with the way an mmo plays catering to both meta users and those who seem to boycott it then go play skyrim. No one to ruin your game by having big boy dps then.9 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AgaTheGreat wrote: »ZOS should stop giving out participation trophies. Frankly, that's insulting to both weak and strong players.
Shouldn't you be cheering for this? I mean people at the top have been complaining that PVE content is too easy for ages. They also have been complaining about players not being able to pull weight in higher end content. Well by lowering the ceiling ZOS solves both issues. Content is harder and casuals will do be less bad. I dont see the issue unless the high and mighty dont want to play with people that are trying to do better.6 -
Marcus_Thracius✭✭✭✭Catering to casual players that dont want to invest 1/100 of what vet players invested to learn the mechanics, rotations , ets - just shows what Zos thinks of vetsEdited by Marcus_Thracius on September 21, 2020 8:46AM5 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Artorias24 wrote: »Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?
We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release)
We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.
They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap
Your arena weapons are still there. No one took anything away.
True, but they just gave away the weapons we took time and effort to obtain. Do you think that is fair?
I don’t expect a free upgrade to a new phone when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest computer processor when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest suv when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
And I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest gear when new ones are introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get my previous gear.
So yes, I think it is perfectly fair.
I play dungeons and trials for fun. It’s a game after all. If I get gear, great! If not there is next time, to me it really does not matter.
If running group content is a chore for you, why run them? And if you stop running them, why do you need upgrades?
Just have fun and stop worrying about the gear other people have.
So it’s ok if I paid $1000 for my new iphone and then someone comes along and is given the same SAME one for $100. No upgrade, no depreciation, the same phone. You might be upset too if you paid $1000. I guess upset is the wrong word. I really don’t care. I just don’t like the argument of “free upgrades”. I think that giving bis gear to players will end up making the entire player base, as a whole, less skillful, since they won’t have had to work for it.
“Apple has lowered the starting price of its iPhone 8 and iPhone XR models by $150. The iPhone 8 and iPhone XR now start at $449 and $599, respectively.“
https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/10/apple-cuts-iphone-8-and-iphone-xr-prices-by-150-kills-iphone-7-and-iphone-xs/
And yet no one freaked out over it...
I think you need to know the whole story about vma weapons.
When they first came to the game they Had somewhat of an "perfected" trait. They removed it cause they thought it was too strong. Now they put new weapons in there, the perfected ones. That have the old stat again. But, your weapons that used to have that bonus are not changed to it. If you want them, you have to refarm them.
To compare that with your iphone example:
Iphone 124 has 500GB of storage and you buy it for 1000$. After some time, apple takes your iPhone, removes 300GB of storage for whatever type of reason. Now after 3 Years, Apple releases the exact same iPhone again, with 500GB storage for the same price you bought yours. But you dont get upgraded to 500GB. No, If you want it, you have to buy the new one again. Think this is fair? I dont think so.
Just go in and get the new weapons. Sheesh. You did it before.
Or do you hate running dungeons? If so what do you need new gear for? Just go and get them.
And if you don’t want to get them, because doing the dungeon is a chore or something, then just be happy with what you have.
At this point I kind of wish they just removed those weapons from everyone’s inventories. Then these complaints would feel a bit more justified.
And to carry on the metaphor. My battery in my iPhone deteriorates over time. People who buy the same phone now, for cheaper, have better batteries. So overtime something is lost compared to when I got it. And people who buy the same phone now, for less money, get a superior phone.
Again, not a big deal.
2 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artorias24 wrote: »Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?
We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.
They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap
Your arena weapons are still there. No one took anything away.
True, but they just gave away the weapons we took time and effort to obtain. Do you think that is fair?
I don’t expect a free upgrade to a new phone when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest computer processor when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest suv when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
And I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest gear when new ones are introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get my previous gear.
So yes, I think it is perfectly fair.
I play dungeons and trials for fun. It’s a game after all. If I get gear, great! If not there is next time, to me it really does not matter.
If running group content is a chore for you, why run them? And if you stop running them, why do you need upgrades?
Just have fun and stop worrying about the gear other people have.
So it’s ok if I paid $1000 for my new iphone and then someone comes along and is given the same SAME one for $100. No upgrade, no depreciation, the same phone. You might be upset too if you paid $1000. I guess upset is the wrong word. I really don’t care. I just don’t like the argument of “free upgrades”. I think that giving bis gear to players will end up making the entire player base, as a whole, less skillful, since they won’t have had to work for it.
“Apple has lowered the starting price of its iPhone 8 and iPhone XR models by $150. The iPhone 8 and iPhone XR now start at $449 and $599, respectively.“
https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/10/apple-cuts-iphone-8-and-iphone-xr-prices-by-150-kills-iphone-7-and-iphone-xs/
And yet no one freaked out over it...
I think you need to know the whole story about vma weapons.
When they first came to the game they Had somewhat of an "perfected" trait. They removed it cause they thought it was too strong. Now they put new weapons in there, the perfected ones. That have the old stat again. But, your weapons that used to have that bonus are not changed to it. If you want them, you have to refarm them.
To compare that with your iphone example:
Iphone 124 has 500GB of storage and you buy it for 1000$. After some time, apple takes your iPhone, removes 300GB of storage for whatever type of reason. Now after 3 Years, Apple releases the exact same iPhone again, with 500GB storage for the same price you bought yours. But you dont get upgraded to 500GB. No, If you want it, you have to buy the new one again. Think this is fair? I dont think so.
Just go in and get the new weapons. Sheesh. You did it before.
Or do you hate running dungeons? If so what do you need new gear for? Just go and get them.
And if you don’t want to get them, because doing the dungeon is a chore or something, then just be happy with what you have.
At this point I kind of wish they just removed those weapons from everyone’s inventories. Then these complaints would feel a bit more justified.
And to carry on the metaphor. My battery in my iPhone deteriorates over time. People who buy the same phone now, for cheaper, have better batteries. So overtime something is lost compared to when I got it. And people who buy the same phone now, for less money, get a superior phone.
Again, not a big deal.
It took me 30 runs of vma till i get my inferno staff. If for you wasting 15 hours on already progressed and finished multiple times couple years old content is not a big deal, it is your problem that you don't value your time. Many players would for example spend this time progressing something new like vKA.
The whole vma upgrade problem only shows that for zos prefer us to grind old content again and again instead of adding new content. And that they don't care about vets
7 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »Artorias24 wrote: »Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?
We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.
They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap
Your arena weapons are still there. No one took anything away.
True, but they just gave away the weapons we took time and effort to obtain. Do you think that is fair?
I don’t expect a free upgrade to a new phone when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest computer processor when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest suv when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
And I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest gear when new ones are introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get my previous gear.
So yes, I think it is perfectly fair.
I play dungeons and trials for fun. It’s a game after all. If I get gear, great! If not there is next time, to me it really does not matter.
If running group content is a chore for you, why run them? And if you stop running them, why do you need upgrades?
Just have fun and stop worrying about the gear other people have.
So it’s ok if I paid $1000 for my new iphone and then someone comes along and is given the same SAME one for $100. No upgrade, no depreciation, the same phone. You might be upset too if you paid $1000. I guess upset is the wrong word. I really don’t care. I just don’t like the argument of “free upgrades”. I think that giving bis gear to players will end up making the entire player base, as a whole, less skillful, since they won’t have had to work for it.
“Apple has lowered the starting price of its iPhone 8 and iPhone XR models by $150. The iPhone 8 and iPhone XR now start at $449 and $599, respectively.“
https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/10/apple-cuts-iphone-8-and-iphone-xr-prices-by-150-kills-iphone-7-and-iphone-xs/
And yet no one freaked out over it...
I think you need to know the whole story about vma weapons.
When they first came to the game they Had somewhat of an "perfected" trait. They removed it cause they thought it was too strong. Now they put new weapons in there, the perfected ones. That have the old stat again. But, your weapons that used to have that bonus are not changed to it. If you want them, you have to refarm them.
To compare that with your iphone example:
Iphone 124 has 500GB of storage and you buy it for 1000$. After some time, apple takes your iPhone, removes 300GB of storage for whatever type of reason. Now after 3 Years, Apple releases the exact same iPhone again, with 500GB storage for the same price you bought yours. But you dont get upgraded to 500GB. No, If you want it, you have to buy the new one again. Think this is fair? I dont think so.
Just go in and get the new weapons. Sheesh. You did it before.
Or do you hate running dungeons? If so what do you need new gear for? Just go and get them.
And if you don’t want to get them, because doing the dungeon is a chore or something, then just be happy with what you have.
At this point I kind of wish they just removed those weapons from everyone’s inventories. Then these complaints would feel a bit more justified.
And to carry on the metaphor. My battery in my iPhone deteriorates over time. People who buy the same phone now, for cheaper, have better batteries. So overtime something is lost compared to when I got it. And people who buy the same phone now, for less money, get a superior phone.
Again, not a big deal.
It took me 30 runs of vma till i get my inferno staff. If for you wasting 15 hours on already progressed and finished multiple times couple years old content is not a big deal, it is your problem that you don't value your time. Many players would for example spend this time progressing something new like vKA.
The whole vma upgrade problem only shows that for zos prefer us to grind old content again and again instead of adding new content. And that they don't care about vets
If running it 15 more times is not worth it for the improved weapon, then there is your answer. Don’t run it and be happy with what you have.
I am not certain about this, but I am told the improved weapons are not a guaranteed drop in normal. Which means on normal a casual player may need to run it much more then 15 times. If they get the weapon, did they put the time and effort into getting it? I would say yes, and good for them.0 -
Artorias24✭✭✭✭✭
✭Czekoludek wrote: »Artorias24 wrote: »Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?
We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.
They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap
Your arena weapons are still there. No one took anything away.
True, but they just gave away the weapons we took time and effort to obtain. Do you think that is fair?
I don’t expect a free upgrade to a new phone when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest computer processor when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest suv when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.
And I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest gear when new ones are introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get my previous gear.
So yes, I think it is perfectly fair.
I play dungeons and trials for fun. It’s a game after all. If I get gear, great! If not there is next time, to me it really does not matter.
If running group content is a chore for you, why run them? And if you stop running them, why do you need upgrades?
Just have fun and stop worrying about the gear other people have.
So it’s ok if I paid $1000 for my new iphone and then someone comes along and is given the same SAME one for $100. No upgrade, no depreciation, the same phone. You might be upset too if you paid $1000. I guess upset is the wrong word. I really don’t care. I just don’t like the argument of “free upgrades”. I think that giving bis gear to players will end up making the entire player base, as a whole, less skillful, since they won’t have had to work for it.
“Apple has lowered the starting price of its iPhone 8 and iPhone XR models by $150. The iPhone 8 and iPhone XR now start at $449 and $599, respectively.“
https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/10/apple-cuts-iphone-8-and-iphone-xr-prices-by-150-kills-iphone-7-and-iphone-xs/
And yet no one freaked out over it...
I think you need to know the whole story about vma weapons.
When they first came to the game they Had somewhat of an "perfected" trait. They removed it cause they thought it was too strong. Now they put new weapons in there, the perfected ones. That have the old stat again. But, your weapons that used to have that bonus are not changed to it. If you want them, you have to refarm them.
To compare that with your iphone example:
Iphone 124 has 500GB of storage and you buy it for 1000$. After some time, apple takes your iPhone, removes 300GB of storage for whatever type of reason. Now after 3 Years, Apple releases the exact same iPhone again, with 500GB storage for the same price you bought yours. But you dont get upgraded to 500GB. No, If you want it, you have to buy the new one again. Think this is fair? I dont think so.
Just go in and get the new weapons. Sheesh. You did it before.
Or do you hate running dungeons? If so what do you need new gear for? Just go and get them.
And if you don’t want to get them, because doing the dungeon is a chore or something, then just be happy with what you have.
At this point I kind of wish they just removed those weapons from everyone’s inventories. Then these complaints would feel a bit more justified.
And to carry on the metaphor. My battery in my iPhone deteriorates over time. People who buy the same phone now, for cheaper, have better batteries. So overtime something is lost compared to when I got it. And people who buy the same phone now, for less money, get a superior phone.
Again, not a big deal.
It took me 30 runs of vma till i get my inferno staff. If for you wasting 15 hours on already progressed and finished multiple times couple years old content is not a big deal, it is your problem that you don't value your time. Many players would for example spend this time progressing something new like vKA.
The whole vma upgrade problem only shows that for zos prefer us to grind old content again and again instead of adding new content. And that they don't care about vets
If running it 15 more times is not worth it for the improved weapon, then there is your answer. Don’t run it and be happy with what you have.
I am not certain about this, but I am told the improved weapons are not a guaranteed drop in normal. Which means on normal a casual player may need to run it much more then 15 times. If they get the weapon, did they put the time and effort into getting it? I would say yes, and good for them.
Perfected weapons dont drop in normal. Only in vet.
And yes, i dont like running vma for the 100th time. I am a PvP player and dont want to spend 15 hours of my after work time on content i do not enjoy. And certain weapons are also used in pvp. Resto, 2h and in some rare builds the sword and Board.
I dont See ANY reason why they shouldnt upgrade the existing weapons to the perfected. Literally none. Upgrading those weapons would be nice for the endgame Community and they would happily take that Change. But ZOS choose they way they upset 90% of the endgame players. Prolly lost subscriptions and active players over this. Tell me why is this better then just upgrading existing ones?6 -
novemberhhh✭✭✭@Dusk_Coven
"Meta is basically min-maxing and a type of exploitation"
uh no it isnt, "min-maxing" (optimization) is just math to us and a so simple even single-celled amoebas can do it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physarum_polycephalum#Situational_behavior4046 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »
Yes it is. It's not so different from spawn camping. Possible by the mechanics but clearly not something you should do because it breaks intended gameplay.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »@Dusk_Coven Min-maxing is definitely not exploiting: applying your mind to solve a problem is one of the defining features of being a human being.
You forget that this is also a game, and one played by other people. There is an intended range of gameplay.
You can "apply your mind to solve a problem" by hiding weights inside your boxing gloves to hit harder. But that's not intended so they ultimately banned it as a type of cheat -- so that boxing is back to how it was intended.
The range of intended gameplay has to be limited for a game to function reasonably.
Minmaxing is deliberately looking for excessive results that are beyond intended gameplay.Minmaxing is what you would call math, not an exploit as much as you’d like to believe.
In other games it's not as possible to do that because they rein in the numbers. ZOS didn't do that and now they're playing catchup. ZOS is now trying to balance those numbers to rein them in, back to what their intended gameplay range is, and what they content was intended to support.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should wreck the game with it.
Way back when games were still in pen and paper and played around a table with friends, gamers recognized just how dangerous minmaxing was to the gameplay experience.
Nowadays people are more anxious to hold on to their exploits at the expense of not just everyone else but the very game they want to play.
http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html
@Dusk_Coven
You know that everyone who spends time to actually work on their builds can achieve those numbers though?
And also not everyone who tries to get a very effective build uses the same stuff, which shows that you can achieve good builds with several different setups.
And you still try to say that it is beyond what is intended by the devs?
Also apparently you are the one who decides what is intended by the devs and what is not?
Since you seem to exactly know what they meant players to be able to achieve.
Also it is simply ridiculous to call minmaxing exploiting.
Exploiting is when you use unintended game mechanics to get advantages over players who play the game "how its meant to be played".
Youre not exploiting when you simply try to get the best stats for your character by choosing the best race, gear and skills which are in no way unintended game mechanics.Edited by Jierdanit on September 22, 2020 5:06PMPC/EU, StamSorc Main4 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭it really comes down to a question of reasonability. If you played this game, like i have for 4 years now without "weaving" or any form of animation cancelling short of emergency blocking and dodging you would see that the game plays and runs just fine like this.
this whole skill ceiling thing due to weaving/cancelling is overkill and always has been. Its not necessary at all and since it causes alot of problems im not sure what the reasoning for keeping it going really is.
i mean were at a point where they are considering 3 second cooldowns but they will not touch the weaving and cancelling
it doesnt make any sense.Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard4 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭it really comes down to a question of reasonability. If you played this game, like i have for 4 years now without "weaving" or any form of animation cancelling short of emergency blocking and dodging you would see that the game plays and runs just fine like this.
this whole skill ceiling thing due to weaving/cancelling is overkill and always has been. Its not necessary at all and since it causes alot of problems im not sure what the reasoning for keeping it going really is.
i mean were at a point where they are considering 3 second cooldowns but they will not touch the weaving and cancelling
it doesnt make any sense.
And yet weaving has very little to do with optimising your build and group composition. It has a lot to do with maximising your dps output per gcd, and when sets are designed around buffs and procs on light attacks and content around dps checks, well, that's the only time the 2 meet. I suppose if they didn't design content and gear around group coordination, and dps, you'd probably have a valid point. Also, the aoe cooldown tests are for aoe, not light attacks, people need to stop conflating the cyro performance issues with weaving. They have nothing to do with one another.4 -
Mobius0✭✭✭I know few veterans that actually enjoy having to have 500 million buffs in their rotation and recast them half of every fight and at the beginning of every fight. The ESO buff system is for sure the worst I have ever seen in my 25 years of playing MMOs.
I WELCOME any change that means I have less buffs to cast every few seconds of a fight.
Just yesterday I ran a dungeon with a group, and had to stop buffing myself, because every group of mobs was dead before I could even get my silly buffs up. It's that bloody ridiculous.
Please for the LOVE OF GOD Zenimax, do ANYTHING to reduce the buff hell that is the current combat system, and don't listen to the complaints of these "vets."
I'd also love if they made more buffs static like Concealed Weapon and Camo Hunter, or perhaps have some buffs be toggles. As a NB, I feel all I am ever doing is recasting Merciless Resolve, Leaching Strikes, Rally, Race against Time, etc.. Throw in heals, cleanse, etc., and I feel like I am actually attacking things like 1/3 of the encounter!Edited by Mobius0 on September 21, 2020 4:04PM5 -
derpy_cat1234✭✭✭"endgame content shouldnt be designed for 3% of the playerbase" is a phrase i see a lot in this thread and just dont understand. ALL content int this game CAN be completed by 99.8% of the players. It just takes time. As it should,it is an mmo after all. You want tick tock tormentor? Its not hard at all! But prepare to practise your rotation for a while and then spend (on average) a couple months in vhof. Its not for everyone and can be boring but it is what it is. During that time, as in all skills you will get better. Your dps will increase in every fight as you learn it better,you will die less etc. No matter what happens to sets,buffs and numbers you will always need to go through the above process. Its not the gear,rotation or class. Its the time spent and experience you gain by doing the same thing over and over again. Again not everyone is gonna find it fun but thats what means to master content. The real gap is in experience,not optimisation,not buffs and for sure not gear.(come on guys you can get raid ready in like a week at most if you focus on that thing specifically). Or you can just not play endgame pve. No one is forcing you. Just know what you are getting into if you decide to.3 -
GarnetFire17✭✭✭✭I'm a veteran player and my builds aren't anywhere near optimized and nor do I care to optimize them to be honest.0
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GarnetFire17✭✭✭✭derpy_cat1234 wrote: »"endgame content shouldnt be designed for 3% of the playerbase" is a phrase i see a lot in this thread and just dont understand. ALL content int this game CAN be completed by 99.8% of the players. It just takes time. As it should,it is an mmo after all. You want tick tock tormentor? Its not hard at all! But prepare to practise your rotation for a while and then spend (on average) a couple months in vhof. Its not for everyone and can be boring but it is what it is. During that time, as in all skills you will get better. Your dps will increase in every fight as you learn it better,you will die less etc. No matter what happens to sets,buffs and numbers you will always need to go through the above process. Its not the gear,rotation or class. Its the time spent and experience you gain by doing the same thing over and over again. Again not everyone is gonna find it fun but thats what means to master content. The real gap is in experience,not optimisation,not buffs and for sure not gear.(come on guys you can get raid ready in like a week at most if you focus on that thing specifically). Or you can just not play endgame pve. No one is forcing you. Just know what you are getting into if you decide to.
You overestimate how many players can do vet dungeons just by practicing. Many will never be able to do it just because they don't have the kind of reactions and muscle memory required. You are right they don't have to do end game pve, and then what happens when they get to that point? They just quit playing the game. The point is to not require a one narrow style of play but to allow more flexiblity in play styles to make the end game more attractive to players.That is not saying that there shouldn't be a meta and that end game content shouldn't be difficult but the content should be clearable for most players even if they aren't super practiced. I would prefer that game require the builds to optimized more then requiring perfect rotations and light attack weaving.Edited by GarnetFire17 on September 21, 2020 4:38PM4 -
Phaedryn✭✭✭I honestly do not get the complaints.
First, all this does is flatten the curve *gear wise*. A bad player, with good gear, is STILL going to be a bad player. The DPS that dies from standing in poison, is still going to die while standing in poison. Anyone who claims to be a good player knows full well that the person behind the keyboard is a far more significant contribution than the gear their character has on.7 -
Astrid✭✭✭✭✭I honestly do not get the complaints.
First, all this does is flatten the curve *gear wise*. A bad player, with good gear, is STILL going to be a bad player. The DPS that dies from standing in poison, is still going to die while standing in poison. Anyone who claims to be a good player knows full well that the person behind the keyboard is a far more significant contribution than the gear their character has on.
Amen. I get people want everyone to be able to clear everything and actually venture into endgame and succeed but giving people higher dps as a standard and nerfing buffs is not going to help those who are entirely clueless mechanically. End of the day, shafting buff uptime isn’t gonna hand these people mechanical knowledge or just basic spacial awareness. 5k DPS or 30k DPS you’re still dead as a door nail if you stand in stupid. All in all, this is just an attempt to hinder the success of the ceiling so the floor doesn’t feel as bad. There is no raising of the floor, just trying to shake the ceiling.Edited by Astrid on September 21, 2020 5:08PM4 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭I honestly do not get the complaints.
First, all this does is flatten the curve *gear wise*. A bad player, with good gear, is STILL going to be a bad player. The DPS that dies from standing in poison, is still going to die while standing in poison. Anyone who claims to be a good player knows full well that the person behind the keyboard is a far more significant contribution than the gear their character has on.
Playing the game and constantly being busy performing actions makes the gameplay feel more dynamic. The more you do and the more optimized you are the stronger you become. Seems pretty reasonable right? This involves investing time learning the game, farming and practicing. Its a good business model.
The problem is the bell curve (APM vs power) keeps flattening more and more each patch. ZoS has already stated that they want it to be less rewarding to have high Actions Per Minute. I assume high APM is a big cause for crashes and lag and ZoS cant or wont fix their code for performance. So we are left with them incrementally making a less dynamic version of the same game every patch.
Its like buying a Porsche and after a few years the company ,without your consent, replaces your engine with a Volvo's engine. Sure it looks like a Porsche but it drives like a Volvo.0 -
GarnetFire17✭✭✭✭I honestly do not get the complaints.
First, all this does is flatten the curve *gear wise*. A bad player, with good gear, is STILL going to be a bad player. The DPS that dies from standing in poison, is still going to die while standing in poison. Anyone who claims to be a good player knows full well that the person behind the keyboard is a far more significant contribution than the gear their character has on.
Playing the game and constantly being busy performing actions makes the gameplay feel more dynamic. The more you do and the more optimized you are the stronger you become. Seems pretty reasonable right? This involves investing time learning the game, farming and practicing. Its a good business model.
The problem is the bell curve (APM vs power) keeps flattening more and more each patch. ZoS has already stated that they want it to be less rewarding to have high Actions Per Minute. I assume high APM is a big cause for crashes and lag and ZoS cant or wont fix their code for performance. So we are left with them incrementally making a less dynamic version of the same game every patch.
Its like buying a Porsche and after a few years the company ,without your consent, replaces your engine with a Volvo's engine. Sure it looks like a Porsche but it drives like a Volvo.
I don't think doing more stuff of the same thing over and over repetitively makes the combat more dynamic. This point obviously in regards to pve. What makes combat dynamic is the fight being not easily predictable and having to react appropriately. They should concentrate on the patterns of npc enemies to make them less predictable and more mechanic based and difficult to react to and less of a straight up dps check. If you group wipes it should be because mechanics were not performed correctly most of the time. It should be very difficult to not enough dps to win the fight. I think there should be a min amount but it should be easy to hit that amount for pretty much everyone who wants to max out a character and put a little bit of thought in their build.Edited by GarnetFire17 on September 21, 2020 5:59PM3 -
GarnetFire17✭✭✭✭I honestly do not get the complaints.
First, all this does is flatten the curve *gear wise*. A bad player, with good gear, is STILL going to be a bad player. The DPS that dies from standing in poison, is still going to die while standing in poison. Anyone who claims to be a good player knows full well that the person behind the keyboard is a far more significant contribution than the gear their character has on.
Right, if they die standing in poison they learn to not do that. If they die because they or enough other people in their group didn't want to dummy hump doing the same skills over and over for 6 months trying to get their dps from 20k to 60k then that is just crappy combat design as I see it. It's not the same thing. The game should be difficult the basics of combat should not be.6 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What you Need .... is more options so the player so the player can tailor the character/gear to their own particular playstyle. Make the player have to make choices, especially with gear. More 1, 2 or 3 piece sets of gear with good niche abilities, that do not diminish the effectiveness of the character.
The more options players have - IF the gear abilities are worth using - then there will be a wider variety of ' builds ' and not just a vast majority of whatever BIS currently dominates the scene.
IMHO
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Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭GarnetFire17 wrote: »I honestly do not get the complaints.
First, all this does is flatten the curve *gear wise*. A bad player, with good gear, is STILL going to be a bad player. The DPS that dies from standing in poison, is still going to die while standing in poison. Anyone who claims to be a good player knows full well that the person behind the keyboard is a far more significant contribution than the gear their character has on.
Playing the game and constantly being busy performing actions makes the gameplay feel more dynamic. The more you do and the more optimized you are the stronger you become. Seems pretty reasonable right? This involves investing time learning the game, farming and practicing. Its a good business model.
The problem is the bell curve (APM vs power) keeps flattening more and more each patch. ZoS has already stated that they want it to be less rewarding to have high Actions Per Minute. I assume high APM is a big cause for crashes and lag and ZoS cant or wont fix their code for performance. So we are left with them incrementally making a less dynamic version of the same game every patch.
Its like buying a Porsche and after a few years the company ,without your consent, replaces your engine with a Volvo's engine. Sure it looks like a Porsche but it drives like a Volvo.
I don't think doing more stuff of the same thing over and over repetitively makes the combat more dynamic. This point obviously in regards to pve. What makes combat dynamic is the fight being not easily predictable and having to react appropriately. They should concentrate on the patterns of npc enemies to make them less predictable and more mechanic based and difficult to react to and less of a straight up dps check. If you group wipes it should be because mechanics were not performed correctly most of the time. It should be very difficult to not enough dps to win the fight. I think there should be a min amount but it should be easy to hit that amount for pretty much everyone who wants to max out a character and put a little bit of thought in their build.
They already have that, and let me tell you what a joy it is to PUG vet DLC dungeons bcz of that.
Yes to be 100% efficient on a target dummy its rinse and repeat till execute but in the field its a whole different story. At its best running a rotation is like playing guitar hero and there's a reason why that game made a zillion dollars.0 -
SamanthaCarter✭✭✭Everyone is a casual player for an other player but for me you are all casual players (no bait) I spent more time than anyone on eso and for example they nerfed and cap my CP when I had the most of my server or they nerfed nirn trait in 2015 on body pieces then they started to nerf mag sorc streaks for the first time and 3 times in the year back in vet 14 and many many other thingsEdited by SamanthaCarter on September 21, 2020 11:28PM0
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erio✭✭✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together
This will only push the pvp community APART further.2 -
dinokstrunz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together
It's making more players head for the exit, you've seen it in PvP with the increase in power on various proc based sets. Nobody who invest the most in this game likes this change. Bad move.0 -
IrishOphidia✭✭✭MrTrenbolone wrote: »Catering to casuals is the biggest mistake any game developer can make.
I don't 100% disagree, but explain how it's a mistake to cater to your largest demographic? It's only a mistake to the 1-2% of veteran players who they can whole-heartedly afford to lose. What incentive do they have to cater to 1-2% of their player base when they can get money from the other 98%. ZoS seems to be thriving pretty well catering to their casuals.1 -
noneatza✭✭✭IrishOphidia wrote: »MrTrenbolone wrote: »Catering to casuals is the biggest mistake any game developer can make.
I don't 100% disagree, but explain how it's a mistake to cater to your largest demographic? It's only a mistake to the 1-2% of veteran players who they can whole-heartedly afford to lose. What incentive do they have to cater to 1-2% of their player base when they can get money from the other 98%. ZoS seems to be thriving pretty well catering to their casuals.
Ive been playing for around 3 months and im already done with all vet trials except vhof and vka, i am of the opiniom that eso is a very easy game and everyone can play it, also due to the large playerbase information is plentiful. I bought the game in june and by august i had already hit 80k dps (i know its not considered great but ive heard its not bad)
Thats from a guy that started with no friends nor knowledge of the game. Now i just feel like i dont have stuff to do other than furnish or quest around.
A casual game makes every progression oriented player bored really quick1 -
Grianasteri✭✭✭✭✭
✭A lot of the responses in this thread I feel are engaging in hyperbole and unrealistic, misguided views.
If you are a min/maxer with an optimsed build, you are still going to wipe the floor with random, average players who dip their toe into pvp occasionally or without that deeper level of development/build.
This is a simple fact. I was in Cyro last night and it was just the same, the top class, regular, optimised players were still dominating, including in 1v1s and 1vx situations.
So, please do not exaggerate the problem because your build/play style has been nerfed or altered, welcome to ESO, it happened to us all, multiple times. That does not make it right, that is not my argument. My argument is the issue here with regards to the ceiling and floor levels of skill/build, is being drastically exaggerated.
It is in general, in my opinion, good to try and bring the ceiling and floor closer together in this respect, while still making sure, as is still the case, that truly skilled, optimised, min/maxed players outperform the average player.
A balance is required. The flip side is a new, or average player, dipping their toe into pvp, and getting, regularly, relentlessly, swept aside with consummate ease, by the more expeienced, min/maxers. That is not a positive experience, not everyone has the time, capacity or inclination to take the game to the enth degree just so they can contribute, never mind compete in pvp. If you want a populated, engaged player base, you cant just focus on veteran players, it needs a balance and I guess Zos are still working at it.
.Edited by Grianasteri on September 22, 2020 12:15PM3 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grianasteri wrote: »A lot of the responses in this thread I feel are engaging in hyperbole and unrealistic, misguided views.
If you are a min/maxer with an optimsed build, you are still going to wipe the floor with random, average players who dip their toe into pvp occasionally or without that deeper level of development/build.
This is a simple fact. I was in Cyro last night and it was just the same, the top class, regular, optimised players were still dominating, including in 1v1s and 1vx situations.
So, please do not exaggerate the problem because your build/play style has been nerfed or altered, welcome to ESO, it happened to us all, multiple times. That does not make it right, that is not my argument. My argument is the issue here with regards to the ceiling and floor levels of skill/build, is being drastically exaggerated.
It is in general, in my opinion, good to try and bring the ceiling and floor closer together in this respect, while still making sure, as is still the case, that truly skilled, optimised, min/maxed players outperform the average player.
A balance is required. The flip side is a new, or average player, dipping their toe into pvp, and getting, regularly, relentlessly, swept aside with consummate ease, by the more expeienced, min/maxers. That is not a positive experience, not everyone has the time, capacity or inclination to take the game to the enth degree just so they can contribute, never mind compete in pvp. If you want a populated, engaged player base, you cant just focus on veteran players, it needs a balance and I guess Zos are still working at it.
.
@Grianasteri
It is not really the change itself which most people are mad about i think, it rather is the message behind it.
I simply find saying that they want to nerf minmaxers while wanting to buff new players to be a huge middle finger to the players who spend the most time on creating good builds.
In my opinion it is perfectly reasonable that players who spend a lot of time to get their chars as strong as possible, are stronger (and depending on how much more they invest even far stronger) than players who jump into PvP without doing those things.
And yes of course not everyone has the time to minmax their builds, but tbh you can not just make them stronger because they dont have time.
Just think of any other form of competition.
In what competition (take any sport for example) is someone who has no time to "train" able to compete with someone who "trains" a lot more than them?
So yea while it might not be great for those players that they can not compete with minmaxers, imo you can not really complain about that.
Edited by Jierdanit on September 22, 2020 4:57PMPC/EU, StamSorc Main0 -
vilio11✭✭✭
Noone says that. That would imply someone is taking away the highest skill cealing, which is not happening ever. This thread is about the low end vs high end of the skill spectrum. The highest skill cealing is only lowered somewhat, but it is not taken away. And it is still WAY above the lower end of the spectrum.Keywords in this thread are: work - effort - learn.... it's a game. Games are things people do for fun!
Also, as a tank I've noticed most players performing 'well' are the ones that don't look at what they are doing. They just focus on light attack weaving, animation cancelling, and skill rotations/bar swapping. Causing them to die 9 out of 10 boss attacks, instead of moving out of them. Those players might as well be facing a test dummy in their house. So I rather have players with somewhat lower damage but who actually look at mechanics, thank you!
For some people harder and challenging content is fun. Why do you think that the only fun activity in games is just doing casual stuffs?
This thread isn't about challenging content either, otherwise why would you be against the game becoming harder for veterans because of these changes?! That technically makes content more challenging for those players. This thread is about the highest skill ceiling being lowered by a bit, which top end players(who say the game is easy) are against for some reason.
Just seems like complaining for the sake of complaining. Especially since the entire game goes through stages of nerfs/buffs, in a neverending cycle.
@eKsDee The same can be said in reverse... you are playing an MMORPG, so it is to be expected not everyone wants to be a top-player all the time. Or even at all. Most parts of the game are even build for singleplayers. Every different part of the game was build for the type of player that wants to use it, even if it conflicts with how another player plays.
So you have to grind many hours of fetch quest and kill many mobs in a boring and easy combat go get to the fun parts(trials and vet dungeons). So if you are a hardcore player you would not want to waste time on a MMO with easy overland just to get to the endgame.0