This just shows how little ZOS Cares about the veteran players

mairwen85

Design content that requires players to organise and optimise; punish players for organisation and optimisation. The mind boggles.

Pajor

You might as well just give everyone the senche tiger mount too lol

BlueRaven

/shrug

The gap between high end and low end dps is too great at the moment. If they and the community want to continue to have challenging pve content, that content has to be made for more then a small percentage of the player base. Otherwise the difficult content will get just about same amount of updates as pvp does.

Besides this makes it easier to find groups for that content too. So win-win as far as I am concerned.

BlueRaven

Fischblut wrote: »

Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?

We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.

They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap

Your arena weapons are still there. No one took anything away.

BlueRaven

TwinLamps wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together

Do you wish to be closer with people that dont wanna work for success but have everything handed them over for whatever reason?

Personally I don’t care. It’s a video game. My enjoyment of it does not come by feeling superior to other players.

Greystag

I only hope this decreases power creep

crjs1

I think we need to wait to see the actual changes first..... But I think this sounds like the right approach, the game balance should cater to the vast majority of average players not the small number of min/maxers. If this allows a much greater amount of build diversity to compete at end game im all for it. Their should be a relentless drive towards build diversity and an end to power creep.

VaranisArano

It'll be fine.

Seriously, this is the sort of nerf that's targeted at organized groups of players. That is, unless your solo build was somehow "utilizing all Majors/Minors at once in coordinated efforts".

Is this nerf to groups going to work?

Well, look at Cyrodiil. ZOS has tried to squash ball groups via various nerfs for years. It hasn't worked. Ball groups look at the new meta, adapt, and come back as strong if not stronger than anyone else. It's to the point that ZOS has to butcher AOEs to effectively nerf organized groups because nothing else has worked.

PVE trial groups are just as good at adapting to the new meta.

It'll be fine.

(Now, the AOE changes may not be fine, but that's for the future.)

Rungar

zos is no good at root cause analysis. That's why many of their changes fail.

tsaescishoeshiner

This is a lot of rampant speculation for changes that have only been briefly described. Wait til Monday's PTS notes before getting stuck in the feeling that endgame content will be ruined and unachievable while new players become godmode. We don't know what the ramifications of the changes will be

Strider__Roshin

Wouldn't it be nice if they rewarded skillful players? This game is becoming more and more like skylanders.

MurderMostFoul

Jeez, this just isn't a big deal folks. There are still going to be top tier players, and players who can't get anywhere near them.

lolo_01b16_ESO

I'd like it if they actually manage to raise the floor.
A few days ago I went to vet Maarselok with a half premade group. Tank and me (healer) both used full support builds and that random dd still only did 2-3k dps. Would be nice if such players actually did a bit more damage.
And I also wouldn't mind if they lower the ceiling back to a point where we can't just skip pretty much all mechanics.

However I expect that player creativity will beat zos once more and they will end up increasing top dps instead.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Fischblut wrote: »

Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?

We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.

They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap

You never earned the new weapon that are stronger than any iteration of those weapon
Therefore none of us were entitled to any of them

Czekoludek

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Fischblut wrote: »

Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?

We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.

They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap

You never earned the new weapon that are stronger than any iteration of those weapon
Therefore none of us were entitled to any of them

Last time when I checked perfected versions were given for content that many of us cleared multiple times so I think what you are saying is not true. If they for example would introduce new difficulty to vMA and vDSA then your words would be true

Olauron

ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.

eKsDee

Olauron wrote: »

ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.

Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.

mairwen85

eKsDee wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.

Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.

You can easily triple that with just light attacks.

Mindcr0w

Jierdanit wrote: »

So in your opinion its good that your build and player skill matters less and that in the end players who play for years get the same results as new players who get their first mediocre gear and spend maybe 2 weeks learning the game?

Reads that the gap between top and bottom will be reduced.

Interprets that to mean the gap will no longer exist.

Mmmm, that's some good hyperbole right there.

Olauron

eKsDee wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.

Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.

That doesn't matter, you know, unless those who "have no idea how to play the game" don't do anything at all. But when they are doing something every second (using LA or HA or damage skills as a DD, using healing skills or LA or HA with psijic skill, etc.), they should have appropriate effectiveness.

BlueRaven

Czekoludek wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Fischblut wrote: »

Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?

We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.

They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap

You never earned the new weapon that are stronger than any iteration of those weapon
Therefore none of us were entitled to any of them

Last time when I checked perfected versions were given for content that many of us cleared multiple times so I think what you are saying is not true. If they for example would introduce new difficulty to vMA and vDSA then your words would be true

Just do the dungeon again. It will be easier this time, you have a better weapon.

If I buy a mobile phone, it does not mean I get a free upgrade each time they introduce a newer version. Nor am I insulted that my current (now not the latest model phone) is selling at a discount, opening it up for more people to have one.

If you were somehow prevented, by game mechanics, from getting a new weapon I can see your point. Just go back in and get your upgrade.

Czekoludek

Olauron wrote: »

ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.

In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times". Some players log in to do couple quest and normal dung for 3-4 hours a week and some logs every day, spend hours outsider of the game looking for knowledge, doing dumny parses for hours, progressing high end game content etc. If you spend that amount of time to be a pro, you will see huge difference between that players. I have friends who are questers and they do 10k in dungeons (they play this game for 3 years now and don't care about improving their characters) and a guy who played for 7 months, did GH and other tripple achis and perform 85k+ on magcro. Only because he invest time and effort to do do.
It is not the matter of players who spend similar amount of time with big difference in results, it is the matter of floor who don't need to improve as content they do doesnt require that from them

ArchMikem

eKsDee wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together

And it's still going to fail miserably, because the floor knows nothing except spamming left click while throwing the occasional skill out, on a heavy armour wearing, inferno staff & greatsword wielding character. To properly bring everyone closer, you either need to force the ceiling to actually play like the floor, or tell the floor to toughen up and learn to play the game properly.

It's kind of our duty to pass on our knowledge to the newer players so they can learn, especially when the game itself doesn't do a good enough job being the teacher. This elitism needs to stop being about prejudice and more mentorship.

Lord-Otto

Greystag wrote: »

I only hope this decreases power creep

Power Creep is a lie fabricated by developers who don't want to upgrade old content, create interesting new content and rather nerf players so they have to re-grind their old strength.

Olauron

Czekoludek wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.

In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times".

Incorrect example. In your example both types of players don't play together (or against each other). Here players are all together. Here players are in common overland and in one activity finder queue.

Thannazzar

Jierdanit wrote: »

During this change, we also adjusted buffs/debuffs to bring them more in-line with our standards for item sets and abilities. This was also combined with the overall goals to increase sustain, decrease damage done, and increase damage taken.Players with builds that aren’t 100% optimized will see an increase in power, while players utilizing all Majors/Minors at once in coordinated efforts will see a decrease in power.

That just again shows that ZOS is trying to make the game as noob friendly as possible.

Why do you need to nerf players who spend time to optimize their builds so that they are as effective as possible and buff players who do not spend time on doing that stuff?

What is the reason that you just try to lower the ceiling more and more with every new patch?
Why would anyone spend time to minmax their builds when in the end the hours of optimizing dont even give them a huge advantage over players who just throw on random gear and dont even manage to have a good buff uptime?

First you manage to get PvP to a point where literally running 2 or 3 proc sets gets any player to a point where he is able to kill people with doing nearly nothing and just let the procs so their damage.
And now you want to get bad players even closer to good players and openly say that in your Combat Preview for the next update.
Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?

Realistically not worried around this, the power limitation nerfs that have been implemented previously have all be bypassed by creative players builds in like 24/48 hours, dont see these as any different.

Czekoludek

Olauron wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.

In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times".

Incorrect example. In your example both types of players don't play together (or against each other). Here players are all together. Here players are in common overland and in one activity finder queue.

Most of op players don't play with casuals from PuGs as they rarely PuG. Triple achievements run also are without casuals. Middle players is where both of these types met and usually it is great oportunity for low end players to learn something new (if they are willing to do so). Most end game ppl happily share they knowledge as more end game players = easier time to create a team to progress something interesting

Czekoludek

BlueRaven wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Fischblut wrote: »

Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?

We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.

They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap

You never earned the new weapon that are stronger than any iteration of those weapon
Therefore none of us were entitled to any of them

Last time when I checked perfected versions were given for content that many of us cleared multiple times so I think what you are saying is not true. If they for example would introduce new difficulty to vMA and vDSA then your words would be true

Just do the dungeon again. It will be easier this time, you have a better weapon.

If I buy a mobile phone, it does not mean I get a free upgrade each time they introduce a newer version. Nor am I insulted that my current (now not the latest model phone) is selling at a discount, opening it up for more people to have one.

If you were somehow prevented, by game mechanics, from getting a new weapon I can see your point. Just go back in and get your upgrade.

It is not the matter of difficulty but rng. If for example they introduce mechanic that if you already own vMA inferno staff, you will get guaranted inferno destro drop then nobody would say anything. I spent 30 hours grinding my inferno staff that was bis, now i need to grind THE SAME content on the same difficulty to get the weapon that is bis.

mairwen85

ArchMikem wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together

And it's still going to fail miserably, because the floor knows nothing except spamming left click while throwing the occasional skill out, on a heavy armour wearing, inferno staff & greatsword wielding character. To properly bring everyone closer, you either need to force the ceiling to actually play like the floor, or tell the floor to toughen up and learn to play the game properly.

It's kind of our duty to pass on our knowledge to the newer players so they can learn, especially when the game itself doesn't do a good enough job being the teacher. This elitism needs to stop being about prejudice and more mentorship.

I don't disagree with you, but it isn't really my responsibility to teach, the game itself should provide that via a progression ladder and character advancement system. It has those, but the disparity in content is staggering, from face roll overland that makes up 90% of new player experience to early dungeons, and then base game vet, craglorn trials, to vet dlc and trials, there is nothing along the way save for a few ambiguous load screen messages to aid people. The only way a player learns currently is by failing, hard. There's no harm in learning from failure that inspires improvement, but this game doesn't do that; instead it lets you swaddle yourself in the overland safety blanket while devs nerf 7 shades out of every challenge and drain the life out of classes and gear sets. I have no issue with explaining mechanics, or offering build advice, but doing so has bitten me in the backside more often than it has been received in good faith. There is more than "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling" that ZOS could be doing, more focused on improving the tools and information in game that makes people better by giving them the right amount of knowledge and exposure as they grow their experience. It's not rocket science and doesn't require constant balance tuning... make overland mobs hit 5-10% harder, give them more resistances, add a medium tier difficulty to group content, and make onscreen information more prominent. that will organically achieve their goal rather than this continuous tinkering that will never get there.

relentless_turnip

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Are that many players stacking both Major and Minor? Which Major/Minor powers? I haven't seen any online builds that even talk about stacking both.

Purely from a PvP perapective. I do on 2 of my stamina chars via minor maim poison, but yeah most the time you'd give up a lot of defence to try stack both major and minor and of course this is just brutality. I thought this was more a change for optimised groups. What they'll probably do is increase their value slightly and then cause them to stack multiplicatively or something...