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This just shows how little ZOS Cares about the veteran players
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eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.
You can easily triple that with just light attacks.
Was being conservative to be more generous for a new player. I know a vet with high CP and good gear can easily hit 3x that, without buffs, as I've done it before on multiple characters, some of which aren't even fully built for damage. A new player with low CP and decent gear won't hit that without buffs, but should absolutely be able to hit 5k with just light attacks alone.
That doesn't matter, you know, unless those who "have no idea how to play the game" don't do anything at all. But when they are doing something every second (using LA or HA or damage skills as a DD, using healing skills or LA or HA with psijic skill, etc.), they should have appropriate effectiveness.ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.
They shouldn't have appropriate effectiveness for only doing part of what they should be doing. Making efficient use of the GCD by casting a skill every second on the dot is just part of what makes good players effective.
Working light/heavy attacks and other actions off the GCD into your gameplay without affecting your skill usage, creating an effective rotation that feels comfortable to perform, using the appropriate gear for your character and role, using food/drink buffs, using potions, keeping your gear durability up, keeping your enchant charge up.
All of that combined is what makes good players effective, and is what the floor is missing. So many mid-tier players who are new to end game but understand all of the above are able to reach the figures you're listing (ie 2-3x less damage than the ceiling, not the 10x that the floor reaches), because they understand all of the above.
Inflating the DPS of the floor is going to do nothing when they're not playing the game properly. Actually, scratch that, it's going to make the floor worse because it'll enable them to continue scraping by doing the bare minimum (in some cases not even that), meanwhile the ceiling is still going to be astronomically high because people will do what people do: min/max the *** out of everything.
The only true solution to closing the DPS/skill gap is to give the floor some tough love, force them to learn and adopt everything I listed above. Everything else is just patting them on the back for doing the wrong thing. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but it is what it is.Daemons_Bane wrote: »Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together
And it's still going to fail miserably, because the floor knows nothing except spamming left click while throwing the occasional skill out, on a heavy armour wearing, inferno staff & greatsword wielding character. To properly bring everyone closer, you either need to force the ceiling to actually play like the floor, or tell the floor to toughen up and learn to play the game properly.
It's kind of our duty to pass on our knowledge to the newer players so they can learn, especially when the game itself doesn't do a good enough job being the teacher. This elitism needs to stop being about prejudice and more mentorship.
That's all well and good, but the problem is that Zenimax are balancing the game around the lowest point in the floor that doesn't know how to play, in an effort to elevate them.
Rather than actually teaching them anything, they're just enabling them to continue as they are, while closing the gap between this lowest point in the floor, the highest point in the ceiling, and, more importantly, everyone else in the middle who has an idea of how the game works and are trying to better themselves to reach the ceiling.
Sure, the light/heavy attack spammer in your dungeon now deals acceptable damage, but since he has no idea how to properly play, he's still gonna be dead weight as far as mechanics are concerned. He's still gonna instantly drop to telegraphed heavy attacks due to failing to block/dodge/interrupt, he's still gonna cause the group to wipe due to pulling taunt from the tank, he's still gonna be just as bad as he was before, in all areas except damage.8 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Then, I guess, all those "overland is too easy" threads should be closed on sight.Czekoludek wrote: »
Incorrect example. In your example both types of players don't play together (or against each other). Here players are all together. Here players are in common overland and in one activity finder queue.Czekoludek wrote: »ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times".
Most of op players don't play with casuals
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.5 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭i find elite players, pve or pvp to be foolish if you ask me. In both cases they cling tightly to a system they know pushes players away from it and unbalances the game, while complaining constantly about performance, things being too easy etc, skill the lack of it and my personal favorite "no one wants to learn".
you should be wanting them to fix it .
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard10 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The only true solution is to balance the game. You will never "force" players to learn. Most will just leave and will be right at doing so.
That doesn't matter, you know, unless those who "have no idea how to play the game" don't do anything at all. But when they are doing something every second (using LA or HA or damage skills as a DD, using healing skills or LA or HA with psijic skill, etc.), they should have appropriate effectiveness.ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.
They shouldn't have appropriate effectiveness for only doing part of what they should be doing. Making efficient use of the GCD by casting a skill every second on the dot is just part of what makes good players effective.
Working light/heavy attacks and other actions off the GCD into your gameplay without affecting your skill usage, creating an effective rotation that feels comfortable to perform, using the appropriate gear for your character and role, using food/drink buffs, using potions, keeping your gear durability up, keeping your enchant charge up.
All of that combined is what makes good players effective, and is what the floor is missing. So many mid-tier players who are new to end game but understand all of the above are able to reach the figures you're listing (ie 2-3x less damage than the ceiling, not the 10x that the floor reaches), because they understand all of the above.
Inflating the DPS of the floor is going to do nothing when they're not playing the game properly. Actually, scratch that, it's going to make the floor worse because it'll enable them to continue scraping by doing the bare minimum (in some cases not even that), meanwhile the ceiling is still going to be astronomically high because people will do what people do: min/max the *** out of everything.
The only true solution to closing the DPS/skill gap is to give the floor some tough love, force them to learn and adopt everything I listed above. Everything else is just patting them on the back for doing the wrong thing. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but it is what it is.
So, the only true solution is to give players skills and combinations of skills that are viable. If some skill is not viable at all (like really, how many channelling skills are viable), then those skills should be either removed completely or rebalanced to be viable. It is not a fault of a player that he chooses skills that are given to him instead of meta-rotation skills. It is not a fault of a player that he uses sets that are given to him and not BiS sets. If other sets are so much worse than BiS sets, then they should be either removed completely or rebalanced to be viable.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.7 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This was not advertised as a game that needed a spreadsheet to figure out how to PVP without getting oneshot.
You'll find new ways to min-max. Your kind always finds a way.11 -
Milli_Rabbit✭✭✭Honestly, I don't think they are making minmax not worth it. They are just making more builds viable and also giving players some leeway in terms of skill. I can pull 66k currently but it requires a bit of perfection. To get even higher, I need to be even more perfect. The thing is, 2/3 of the max shouldn't be highly skilled. Poor skill should do poor damage. Medium skill should do medium damage. High skill should do high damage. Exceptional skill should do exceptional damage. Currently, the ramp up is weird. High skill barely does half the max damage possible. You need very high skill to get high damage. I see the current ramp up in terms of low-med-high-except as 10%-20%-50%-90%. It should be more like 20%-50%-80%-95%. This is less of an exponential curve due to skill.3
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Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the funny thing is, the skill gap in this game is more due to twitchiness of combat than anything else, so removing these buffs is not going to help, because a player who takes care with their gear and CP and all that other stuff, but simply, cannot hit buttons as quickly and precisely timed as some of you "veterans" (lol, guess what not every veteran is a super skilled elitist, some of us have been playing as long as you have, but simply are not god's gift to twitchy reflexes gameplay) - is going to be far more screwed.
so its not that ZoS doesn't care about veterans. its that they still don't seem to understand why the skill gap as large as it is.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
vilio11✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together
I do not think that "the new player argument works". Many of my friends are leaving the game after 10 hours because the game is easy for them. They were bored because the game was braindeath(they told me that). This is not only the story of my friands. Many gamers who tried ESO are saying that the game was boring because was too easy.6 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Keywords in this thread are: work - effort - learn.... it's a game. Games are things people do for fun!
Also, as a tank I've noticed most players performing 'well' are the ones that don't look at what they are doing. They just focus on light attack weaving, animation cancelling, and skill rotations/bar swapping. Causing them to die 9 out of 10 boss attacks, instead of moving out of them. Those players might as well be facing a test dummy in their house. So I rather have players with somewhat lower damage but who actually look at mechanics, thank you!7 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Then, I guess, all those "overland is too easy" threads should be closed on sight.Czekoludek wrote: »
Incorrect example. In your example both types of players don't play together (or against each other). Here players are all together. Here players are in common overland and in one activity finder queue.Czekoludek wrote: »ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times".
Most of op players don't play with casuals
Overland is too easy for everyone, not just high end players with best gear. A lot of new players quickly became bored cuz they learn that you can just light attack to roll through overland. Game doesn't show them how to play properly and doesn't require that because of difficulty level. Also in overland when you have casual and pro playing on the same map, they don't group up so they don't "play together". Are you trying to tell me that when I see low cp player doing the quest in the same area as my godslayer char, we play together? That's not how it works. For me he is just some random i don't care about, for him/her it is probably the same story9 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Keywords in this thread are: work - effort - learn.... it's a game. Games are things people do for fun!
Also, as a tank I've noticed most players performing 'well' are the ones that don't look at what they are doing. They just focus on light attack weaving, animation cancelling, and skill rotations/bar swapping. Causing them to die 9 out of 10 boss attacks, instead of moving out of them. Those players might as well be facing a test dummy in their house. So I rather have players with somewhat lower damage but who actually look at mechanics, thank you!
😂
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackanory
I'm not sure that's true. Sure you get some try hards in pugs who over assert themselves, but every player I know who parses well, does it with enough muscle memory they don't have to watch their hands. Weaving etc are all second nature and easy enough to learn that it doesn't require vast amounts of concentration. Also, all content is doable with knowledge of mechanics and how the combat works... To the point that strafe, roll, block, bash, back on rotation, break for action x, blah blah, it's all just part of the general sequence of play. The players you are describing that have to focus on triggering skills and such, well, they aren't the group that knows mechanics, does decent damage, optimises, or clears high end content either.Edited by mairwen85 on September 20, 2020 3:00PM4 -
vilio11✭✭✭Keywords in this thread are: work - effort - learn.... it's a game. Games are things people do for fun!
Also, as a tank I've noticed most players performing 'well' are the ones that don't look at what they are doing. They just focus on light attack weaving, animation cancelling, and skill rotations/bar swapping. Causing them to die 9 out of 10 boss attacks, instead of moving out of them. Those players might as well be facing a test dummy in their house. So I rather have players with somewhat lower damage but who actually look at mechanics, thank you!
For some people harder and challenging content is fun. Why do you think that the only fun activity in games is just doing casual stuffs?7 -
DeathStalker_X✭✭✭[snip] It is ENJOYMENT that drives that vast majority of players - not the 0.01% that have to be "the best"/"the fastest"/the etc. If a character HAS to use specific gear, or developed in a specific way in order to succeed, that is the definition of catering and POOR programming [snip]. Personally, I HATE the Alliance Wars and won't bother with PVP (unless challenged) and can't be bothered with the Imperial City, etc. I want SOLO PVE *ONLY* - that is MY choice. I handle most Level I Group Dungeons just fine by myself. If I want more, I'll get a couple personal friends to join. Personally, I can't see myself even bothering with the Trials in the same way I won't bother with PVP.
ENJOY the freaking game [snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on September 20, 2020 3:45PM3 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DeathStalker_X what if I derive my ENJOYMENT from meta of the week speed running and I do that in an organised and optimised group that doesn't touch upon you and yours? Why should I have my enjoyment lessened or impacted on because you don't like it and think it's worthless, or that your opinion if me is that I am useless? I agree, BTW, I am useless to you, just as you are to me and my optimised group.10 -
DeathStalker_X✭✭✭@DeathStalker_X what if I derive my ENJOYMENT from meta of the week speed running and I do that in an organised and optimised group that doesn't touch upon you and yours? Why should I have my enjoyment lessened or impacted on because you don't like it and think it's worthless, or that your opinion if me is that I am useless? I agree, BTW, I am useless to you, just as you are to me and my optimised group.
Then IMHO, it should be 2 separate games - those are entirely separate purposes and intents.
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Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
And a lot of new players find it hard.Czekoludek wrote: »
Then, I guess, all those "overland is too easy" threads should be closed on sight.Czekoludek wrote: »
Incorrect example. In your example both types of players don't play together (or against each other). Here players are all together. Here players are in common overland and in one activity finder queue.Czekoludek wrote: »ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times".
Most of op players don't play with casuals
Overland is too easy for everyone, not just high end players with best gear. A lot of new players quickly became bored cuz they learn that you can just light attack to roll through overland. Game doesn't show them how to play properly and doesn't require that because of difficulty level. Also in overland when you have casual and pro playing on the same map, they don't group up so they don't "play together". Are you trying to tell me that when I see low cp player doing the quest in the same area as my godslayer char, we play together? That's not how it works. For me he is just some random i don't care about, for him/her it is probably the same story
All players play together, when they are facing the same mob, the same world boss or the same group event like dolmen or geyser. Grouping matters nothing here.
When a player uses skills A, B, C, D, E with ultimate X, he is playing properly. When a player uses skills F, G, H, I, J with ultimate Y, he is playing properly. Not every skill combination can be optimal, but every skill combination must be viable.Edited by Olauron on September 20, 2020 3:11PMThe Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?
We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release)
We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.
They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap
Your arena weapons are still there. No one took anything away.
True, but they just gave away the weapons we took time and effort to obtain. Do you think that is fair?7 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DeathStalker_X wrote: »DeathStalker_X what if I derive my ENJOYMENT from meta of the week speed running and I do that in an organised and optimised group that doesn't touch upon you and yours? Why should I have my enjoyment lessened or impacted on because you don't like it and think it's worthless, or that your opinion if me is that I am useless? I agree, BTW, I am useless to you, just as you are to me and my optimised group.
Then IMHO, it should be 2 separate games - those are entirely separate purposes and intents.
Which is almost where we are. There is a symbolic split between overland and group content, and again with tactical pvp, openworld pvp, and pvpve. Each of those game modes has its own requirements, concerns and disciplines. You either build and spec to those, or suffer for not doing so. I mean, surely that's just fundamentally logical. If you want to branch out and succeed in one or the other, it makes sense you have to put some time and effort into it, what's the point in them otherwise?Edited by mairwen85 on September 20, 2020 3:17PM2 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭DeathStalker_X wrote: »[snip] It is ENJOYMENT that drives that vast majority of players - not the 0.01% that have to be "the best"/"the fastest"/the etc. If a character HAS to use specific gear, or developed in a specific way in order to succeed, that is the definition of catering and POOR programming [snip]. Personally, I HATE the Alliance Wars and won't bother with PVP (unless challenged) and can't be bothered with the Imperial City, etc. I want SOLO PVE *ONLY* - that is MY choice. I handle most Level I Group Dungeons just fine by myself. If I want more, I'll get a couple personal friends to join. Personally, I can't see myself even bothering with the Trials in the same way I won't bother with PVP.
ENJOY the freaking game [snip]
I'm sorry, but you came into an MMORPG, a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game, and are trying to play it as a single player RPG. That was your choice to come into a multiplayer online RPG, only to play it like a single player RPG. It should be on you to deal with the consequences of that, not the game nor the developer, nor the rest of the community who are playing it as what it is -- an MMORPG. You.
Play it like a single player RPG, fine. But the game should not be built around you or the type of gameplay you're looking for, because the game was never meant to offer that sort of gameplay in the first place. Again, it was your choice to come into an MMORPG and play it like a single player RPG.
You're not the only person playing ESO, nor am I. There are millions of others playing ESO, each of which looking for different things out of the game, but, as an MMORPG, a themepark MMORPG at that, the game is built to cater to a specific audience, and as such has to offer content for that audience, which is why there's dungeons, trials, PvP, etc. It should be on you to work around this, since you aren't the game's intended audience.
Again, I'm sorry if that was too harsh, but that sentiment of "I play it as a single player RPG, I shouldn't be forced to learn/group/etc to do content" is really starting to irritate me, since the game just isn't a single player RPG, nor should you expect it to play like one.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on September 20, 2020 3:46PM13 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together
I do not think that "the new player argument works". Many of my friends are leaving the game after 10 hours because the game is easy for them. They were bored because the game was braindeath(they told me that). This is not only the story of my friands. Many gamers who tried ESO are saying that the game was boring because was too easy.
I never said new0 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Noone says that. That would imply someone is taking away the highest skill cealing, which is not happening ever. This thread is about the low end vs high end of the skill spectrum. The highest skill cealing is only lowered somewhat, but it is not taken away. And it is still WAY above the lower end of the spectrum.Keywords in this thread are: work - effort - learn.... it's a game. Games are things people do for fun!
Also, as a tank I've noticed most players performing 'well' are the ones that don't look at what they are doing. They just focus on light attack weaving, animation cancelling, and skill rotations/bar swapping. Causing them to die 9 out of 10 boss attacks, instead of moving out of them. Those players might as well be facing a test dummy in their house. So I rather have players with somewhat lower damage but who actually look at mechanics, thank you!
For some people harder and challenging content is fun. Why do you think that the only fun activity in games is just doing casual stuffs?
This thread isn't about challenging content either, otherwise why would you be against the game becoming harder for veterans because of these changes?! That technically makes content more challenging for those players. This thread is about the highest skill ceiling being lowered by a bit, which top end players(who say the game is easy) are against for some reason.
Just seems like complaining for the sake of complaining. Especially since the entire game goes through stages of nerfs/buffs, in a neverending cycle.
@eKsDee The same can be said in reverse... you are playing an MMORPG, so it is to be expected not everyone wants to be a top-player all the time. Or even at all. Most parts of the game are even build for singleplayers. Every different part of the game was build for the type of player that wants to use it, even if it conflicts with how another player plays.7 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Noone says that. That would imply someone is taking away the highest skill cealing, which is not happening ever. This thread is about the low end vs high end of the skill spectrum. The highest skill cealing is only lowered somewhat, but it is not taken away. And it is still WAY above the lower end of the spectrum.Keywords in this thread are: work - effort - learn.... it's a game. Games are things people do for fun!
Also, as a tank I've noticed most players performing 'well' are the ones that don't look at what they are doing. They just focus on light attack weaving, animation cancelling, and skill rotations/bar swapping. Causing them to die 9 out of 10 boss attacks, instead of moving out of them. Those players might as well be facing a test dummy in their house. So I rather have players with somewhat lower damage but who actually look at mechanics, thank you!
For some people harder and challenging content is fun. Why do you think that the only fun activity in games is just doing casual stuffs?
This thread isn't about challenging content either, otherwise why would you be against the game becoming harder for veterans because of these changes?! That technically makes content more challenging for those players. This thread is about the highest skill ceiling being lowered by a bit, which top end players(who say the game is easy) are against for some reason.
Just seems like complaining for the sake of complaining. Especially since the entire game goes through stages of nerfs/buffs, in a neverending cycle.
eKsDee The same can be said in reverse... you are playing an MMORPG, so it is to be expected not everyone wants to be a top-player all the time. Or even at all. Most parts of the game are even build for singleplayers. Every different part of the game was build for the type of player that wants to use it, even if it conflicts with how another player plays.
Exactly that, the game has a wide variety of modes for different groups of players. Each, as I said, has individual requirements and expectations, concerns and disciplines. Players should build and spec to those, and experience difficulties when not doing so, that's the nature of the beast. It isn't right for ZOS to continuously deminish any of those to accommodate players who choose not to do the bare minimal expected of them. You pretty much moot your own argument with that statement.Edited by mairwen85 on September 20, 2020 3:33PM2 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭
The only true solution is to balance the game. You will never "force" players to learn. Most will just leave and will be right at doing so.
That doesn't matter, you know, unless those who "have no idea how to play the game" don't do anything at all. But when they are doing something every second (using LA or HA or damage skills as a DD, using healing skills or LA or HA with psijic skill, etc.), they should have appropriate effectiveness.ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.
They shouldn't have appropriate effectiveness for only doing part of what they should be doing. Making efficient use of the GCD by casting a skill every second on the dot is just part of what makes good players effective.
Working light/heavy attacks and other actions off the GCD into your gameplay without affecting your skill usage, creating an effective rotation that feels comfortable to perform, using the appropriate gear for your character and role, using food/drink buffs, using potions, keeping your gear durability up, keeping your enchant charge up.
All of that combined is what makes good players effective, and is what the floor is missing. So many mid-tier players who are new to end game but understand all of the above are able to reach the figures you're listing (ie 2-3x less damage than the ceiling, not the 10x that the floor reaches), because they understand all of the above.
Inflating the DPS of the floor is going to do nothing when they're not playing the game properly. Actually, scratch that, it's going to make the floor worse because it'll enable them to continue scraping by doing the bare minimum (in some cases not even that), meanwhile the ceiling is still going to be astronomically high because people will do what people do: min/max the *** out of everything.
The only true solution to closing the DPS/skill gap is to give the floor some tough love, force them to learn and adopt everything I listed above. Everything else is just patting them on the back for doing the wrong thing. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but it is what it is.
So, the only true solution is to give players skills and combinations of skills that are viable. If some skill is not viable at all (like really, how many channelling skills are viable), then those skills should be either removed completely or rebalanced to be viable. It is not a fault of a player that he chooses skills that are given to him instead of meta-rotation skills. It is not a fault of a player that he uses sets that are given to him and not BiS sets. If other sets are so much worse than BiS sets, then they should be either removed completely or rebalanced to be viable.
The problem is the fact that a lot of players aren't even using skills to begin with, or aren't using them nearly often enough. Same can be said for wearing completely wrong gear (ie heavy armour on a DPS build).
In general, the list of things that each player at the lowest point in the floor is doing wrong is just so diverse, that there just isn't a way to inflate their DPS without also inflating the DPS of the ceiling.
Most players you see are just light attacking? You'd think the solution to increasing their DPS is to buff light attacks, but that also increases the DPS of the ceiling (sometimes even more so), while leaving those who aren't light attacking at all behind.
Most players you see are just spamming a single skill over and over? You'd think the solution to increasing their DPS is to buff that type of skill, but that also increases the DPS of the ceiling if the ceiling also uses that skill, while leaving those who aren't using or spamming that skill behind.
The only way to satisfy both is to buff both, which means that the ceiling potentially gets a DPS increase on two fronts (with one of them outpacing the floor's increase), while one part of the floor gets a DPS increase on two fronts, another gets a DPS increase on only one front, and a third gets a lesser DPS increase only on one front, because they're not performing the respective action as often.
There's no way to "raise the floor, lower the ceiling", when the floor is so wildly diverse in terms of what they're doing wrong. The only real solution is to help the floor figure out what they're doing wrong in the first place.Keywords in this thread are: work - effort - learn.... it's a game. Games are things people do for fun!
Also, as a tank I've noticed most players performing 'well' are the ones that don't look at what they are doing. They just focus on light attack weaving, animation cancelling, and skill rotations/bar swapping. Causing them to die 9 out of 10 boss attacks, instead of moving out of them. Those players might as well be facing a test dummy in their house. So I rather have players with somewhat lower damage but who actually look at mechanics, thank you!
You're getting matched up with those in the middle who know what they should be doing, but aren't yet comfortable with it. There's also those in the middle who are comfortable with it, where everything is just muscle memory to them, and of course there are those near the ceiling who have perfected it, performing as optimally as they can given their personal limitations (health, connection, etc).
It also sounds like you're queuing for dungeons through the group finder, so if you are, know that the group you get out of the group finder is entirely up to chance. You could potentially get the best group in the world, or you could get the worst group in the world. Given the fact that most players exist near the floor, you're far more likely to match with those who fall into the latter type of group, as far as a group member is concerned.6 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭
And a lot of new players find it hard.Czekoludek wrote: »
Then, I guess, all those "overland is too easy" threads should be closed on sight.Czekoludek wrote: »
Incorrect example. In your example both types of players don't play together (or against each other). Here players are all together. Here players are in common overland and in one activity finder queue.Czekoludek wrote: »ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times".
Most of op players don't play with casuals
Overland is too easy for everyone, not just high end players with best gear. A lot of new players quickly became bored cuz they learn that you can just light attack to roll through overland. Game doesn't show them how to play properly and doesn't require that because of difficulty level. Also in overland when you have casual and pro playing on the same map, they don't group up so they don't "play together". Are you trying to tell me that when I see low cp player doing the quest in the same area as my godslayer char, we play together? That's not how it works. For me he is just some random i don't care about, for him/her it is probably the same story
All players play together, when they are facing the same mob, the same world boss or the same group event like dolmen or geyser. Grouping matters nothing here.
When a player uses skills A, B, C, D, E with ultimate X, he is playing properly. When a player uses skills F, G, H, I, J with ultimate Y, he is playing properly. Not every skill combination can be optimal, but every skill combination must be viable.
If players are using abilities, no matter if their build is based on meta or not, they are played properly. I don't give a F about ppl in overland if they use weak skills, bad morphd etc. But ppl for which this dumb changes are presented are mostly ppl who only light attacks or use one skill per 4 seconds. I didn't hear from anybody that overland is hard in years (and i'm on very different guilds, from end game raiding ones to pure RP). The only complains for hard overland during last 4 years was about one world boss from southern Elsweyr that actually have one hard mechanic.3 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭The same can be said in reverse... you are playing an MMORPG
The difference is, I'm playing it as an MMORPG, I'm not playing it as a single player RPG (which is fine, provided you accept that dealing with the consequences of this is up to you), and I'm certainly not asking for it to be changed to play more like a single player RPG.so it is to be expected not everyone wants to be a top-player all the time
I've never said that people need to be top players all the time, I've simply said that the floor is far too low for what it should be, given the years of constant buffing by Zenimax, because the floor doesn't know how to use the tools Zenimax has provided them.
As I said earlier, a lot of players can barely break 5k DPS. On a character with a low amount of CP allocated, with gear that somewhat makes sense for your build, you can hit that by literally just spamming light attack. On a character with a high amount of CP allocated, with good gear, you can hit triple that by spamming light attack. Bump up to meta gear, can probably hit 4x that. All of which with no buffs up. How do I know? I've done it before.
The reason why a lot of players can barely break 5k DPS, despite having the tools to do so provided to them in game, is because they don't know how to use the tools. They don't know how to properly allocate CP (not optimally, just properly), they don't know how to gear up (not optimally, just properly). They don't know how important food buffs are (I've had multiple new players respond with surprise when they've been told how important they are), they don't know how important your max resource pools are for damage (64 points into a single stat is equivalent to ~676 weapon/spell damage, even just splitting that, you're losing ~340 weapon/spell damage, which is more than something like Hunding's Rage or Julianos), they don't know any of this.
And that's fine. Everyone has to start somewhere, so of course it's fine if they don't know how. The problem is the game never makes an effort to teach them any of these things, they never go out of their way to figure this out for themselves, and, in some cases, they don't even want to figure it out for themselves. They'd rather continue doing what they've always been doing.
And, again, that's fine, provided they realise they can't pull their weight in group content and so try to stay out of group content. Again, the problem is the whole "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" mantra. Zenimax is actively trying to close the damage/skill gap, by both reducing the damage of the ceiling and inflating the damage of the floor. I've outlined why this is not going to work in this comment to Olauron, so I won't repeat it, but I'll just say that this won't ever work so long as the floor is this clueless about the game.Most parts of the game are even build for singleplayers.
Didn't used to be as single player focused on launch, and the shift towards single player focused content was one of Zenimax's missteps IMO, because it goes against the MMO design philosophy. Why even have this be an MMO, if all you do with other players is look at them for 5 seconds, admire their armour, and move on?Every different part of the game was build for the type of player that wants to use it, even if it conflicts with how another player plays.
Again, the problem is the fact that Zenimax is trying to close the gap, and so now it is conflicting with how another player plays. The game has been dumbed down considerably over the past few years, in an effort to streamline the game and make it easier for newer players to understand, to the dismay of veterans. Just have to look at how much power proc sets hold in PvP to see that in action.5 -
WeerW3ir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some one said earlier they dosent give a damn about old players. My question is when they did????
They making the gap wider between newbies and oldies themself since long. The problem is they do not think about the players as before. Now only that matter we need more players who can play and pay. Dosent matter if the player leaves after 1-2 month. Only that matter you played it. They dosent share peak numbers or actual players. All they did always was sharing "active" players. For them since some time we are just numbers.
If they would actually do things differently, then things would be different here. But the problem is right now the earlier mentioned gap is earth-moon difference. With that they want to nerf the ones who actually do care about the game and buff the one who just put on random trash. In fact this just stating they do not know how to fix it. This is not the way. The way would be an universal Scale. You get better and better with dps as you level up. They need to Scale the stats of yours with cp. So on cp 810 you would do the dmg as you do now. But on lower like 400. You do much lower. With this they would actually give you a reason to get better and get gear to make more dmg. The reason would be enough. You not make the players play the game with fancy rewards to reach higher ranks. Would work. But id say the Scale could work like a new modifier. More cp. More dmg. And special abilities1 -
Dexter411✭✭✭Oh *** off
This is too much... as someone that learned and adjusted to any kind of *** You throwed at us... I learned to use heavy attacks in my rotation, I farmed gear and I refarmed maelstrom weapons...
Maybe if we buy more crowns they will fix bugs and glitches that are in game for months if not for yearsEdited by Dexter411 on September 20, 2020 4:14PM2 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd be pretty offended by zos as a new players treated like an absolute idiot from one changes preview to the other.1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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The problem you described here is the problem introduced by the ability to weave (cancel the animation of light attack). As you can understand, there are a lot of ways to solve this problem. First, it is possible to simply remove this ability, then raising the floor will not raise the ceiling. Second, it is possible to nerf LA damage when it is combined with skills. For example, the first LA after the skill does little damage, next LA (without skill between) does more damage, 3rd LA does even more damage. Third, it is possible to simply remove damage from LA and HA and replace it with minor and major buffs on caster (or debuffs on target).
The only true solution is to balance the game. You will never "force" players to learn. Most will just leave and will be right at doing so.
That doesn't matter, you know, unless those who "have no idea how to play the game" don't do anything at all. But when they are doing something every second (using LA or HA or damage skills as a DD, using healing skills or LA or HA with psijic skill, etc.), they should have appropriate effectiveness.ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
Or that the floor has no idea how to play the game, which is the case here. The tools are already in place for players to deal acceptable DPS for base game vet content, and yet some struggle to break past 5k DPS. You can literally deal that much by just spamming light attack in proper gear.
They shouldn't have appropriate effectiveness for only doing part of what they should be doing. Making efficient use of the GCD by casting a skill every second on the dot is just part of what makes good players effective.
Working light/heavy attacks and other actions off the GCD into your gameplay without affecting your skill usage, creating an effective rotation that feels comfortable to perform, using the appropriate gear for your character and role, using food/drink buffs, using potions, keeping your gear durability up, keeping your enchant charge up.
All of that combined is what makes good players effective, and is what the floor is missing. So many mid-tier players who are new to end game but understand all of the above are able to reach the figures you're listing (ie 2-3x less damage than the ceiling, not the 10x that the floor reaches), because they understand all of the above.
Inflating the DPS of the floor is going to do nothing when they're not playing the game properly. Actually, scratch that, it's going to make the floor worse because it'll enable them to continue scraping by doing the bare minimum (in some cases not even that), meanwhile the ceiling is still going to be astronomically high because people will do what people do: min/max the *** out of everything.
The only true solution to closing the DPS/skill gap is to give the floor some tough love, force them to learn and adopt everything I listed above. Everything else is just patting them on the back for doing the wrong thing. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but it is what it is.
So, the only true solution is to give players skills and combinations of skills that are viable. If some skill is not viable at all (like really, how many channelling skills are viable), then those skills should be either removed completely or rebalanced to be viable. It is not a fault of a player that he chooses skills that are given to him instead of meta-rotation skills. It is not a fault of a player that he uses sets that are given to him and not BiS sets. If other sets are so much worse than BiS sets, then they should be either removed completely or rebalanced to be viable.
The problem is the fact that a lot of players aren't even using skills to begin with, or aren't using them nearly often enough. Same can be said for wearing completely wrong gear (ie heavy armour on a DPS build).
In general, the list of things that each player at the lowest point in the floor is doing wrong is just so diverse, that there just isn't a way to inflate their DPS without also inflating the DPS of the ceiling.
Most players you see are just light attacking? You'd think the solution to increasing their DPS is to buff light attacks, but that also increases the DPS of the ceiling (sometimes even more so), while leaving those who aren't light attacking at all behind.
Most players you see are just spamming a single skill over and over? You'd think the solution to increasing their DPS is to buff that type of skill, but that also increases the DPS of the ceiling if the ceiling also uses that skill, while leaving those who aren't using or spamming that skill behind.
The only way to satisfy both is to buff both, which means that the ceiling potentially gets a DPS increase on two fronts (with one of them outpacing the floor's increase), while one part of the floor gets a DPS increase on two fronts, another gets a DPS increase on only one front, and a third gets a lesser DPS increase only on one front, because they're not performing the respective action as often.
There's no way to "raise the floor, lower the ceiling", when the floor is so wildly diverse in terms of what they're doing wrong. The only real solution is to help the floor figure out what they're doing wrong in the first place.
That is wrong understanding. Changes to buffs (debuffs?) are presented to all players, and players who have less than mid dps are not necessary the ones who are using skills once per 4 seconds.Czekoludek wrote: »
And a lot of new players find it hard.Czekoludek wrote: »
Then, I guess, all those "overland is too easy" threads should be closed on sight.Czekoludek wrote: »
Incorrect example. In your example both types of players don't play together (or against each other). Here players are all together. Here players are in common overland and in one activity finder queue.Czekoludek wrote: »ZOS is doing good and right thing here. The difference between good and bad should be 2 - 3 times (for DPS, as well as for healer and tank effectiveness). When the difference is 10 times or more, then it simply means that the game is completely unbalanced.
In real life difference between a person who plays football as casual and players like Messi is more then "2-3 times".
Most of op players don't play with casuals
Overland is too easy for everyone, not just high end players with best gear. A lot of new players quickly became bored cuz they learn that you can just light attack to roll through overland. Game doesn't show them how to play properly and doesn't require that because of difficulty level. Also in overland when you have casual and pro playing on the same map, they don't group up so they don't "play together". Are you trying to tell me that when I see low cp player doing the quest in the same area as my godslayer char, we play together? That's not how it works. For me he is just some random i don't care about, for him/her it is probably the same story
All players play together, when they are facing the same mob, the same world boss or the same group event like dolmen or geyser. Grouping matters nothing here.
When a player uses skills A, B, C, D, E with ultimate X, he is playing properly. When a player uses skills F, G, H, I, J with ultimate Y, he is playing properly. Not every skill combination can be optimal, but every skill combination must be viable.
But ppl for which this dumb changes are presented are mostly ppl who only light attacks or use one skill per 4 seconds. I didn't hear from anybody that overland is hard in years (and i'm on very different guilds, from end game raiding ones to pure RP). The only complains for hard overland during last 4 years was about one world boss from southern Elsweyr that actually have one hard mechanic.
I see a lot of players killed by mobs (not even bosses) in delves, even when they are using skills.
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2
