rapids change
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karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Another obvious motivation is that slowing down players movement slows down zone environmental queries, relieve zone pressure. This is a performance enhancement!PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.(Pariah's Pinacle)2 -
johnebrown✭✭✭It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.
It is not minimal for me. It definitely takes hours takes hours if ur not PVP/BG savy - at least for me it does. Regardless of what you can do, I cannot do it in 30 minutes - It takes me hours to do it for one toon and I have a LOT of toons. Perhaps I'm just not that good of a player.5 -
johnebrown✭✭✭SydneyGrey wrote: »They only care about PvP, dungeons and trials. They really don't care about players who like to make a dozen alts for fun, or who roleplay. They want to force everyone to do PvP even if they don't want to. Looks like they've ignored all the suggestions people gave them that would work better for everyone.
They could have just added Rapids as the first unlock in the Soul Magic line, but noooo ....
I was really surprised (& disappointed) they did not go with one of options people offered up or even explained why they could not. It all seemed quite callous.
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FinrodMacBeorn✭✭✭It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.
How (earnest question)? I tried to get one of my bank chars yesterday on nonCP (EU) to rank 5 but just managed to get from rank 3 to rank 4 in about 2.5 hours - and that with fully leveled horse AND rapids.
This was prime time, locks on all 3 factions, 40 player kill quest fulfilled, quite some ressources taken - however, my faction was yesterday a flock of headless chickens, i.e. not very successful in defending and capturing keeps, partly due to overwhelming numbers on the enemy side, partly due to lack of organized groups.
So, please give me some advice how to get to rank 5 in less than 30 mins - and that without rapids.4 -
johnebrown✭✭✭I'll admit that it wasn't clear to me that characters that already had Rapids would lose rapids with this change but the math makes sense.
It doesn't affect me greatly given that my lower level characters are primarily mules anyway. I do have to say that I was surprised to see that the skill had been removed however.
Shame on me for not being a better consumer of the PTS patch notes and the ubiquitous woe and gnashing of teeth around this topic for the past few weeks.
I am positive that this is nothing that a visit to the Crown Store won't fix.
Not for me unless they have a fire sale on that. I have ~50 toons to upgrade. As I said before, nope not going to do it, which means two of my subbed accounts will no longer be subbed as of tonight (or whenever it runs out). I'll just stick with my main account & save the $32 a month I was spending on the other accounts.4 -
johnebrown✭✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »
Correct, which is also true about a lot of other skills... purge, barrier, vigor (at least it was), warhorn, etc...
I understand, people want to go as fast as possible and limit the exposure to ZoS environment, but pretty much like every other change its a learn to adapt issue. And let's not act like the crown store alternative for buying horse speed wasn't taken into consideration here, as there is obviously more cause to buy them now.
It is the first time they have actually directly taken away a skill when they made changes like this. Previously it was just "locked" but was still able to be put onto your bars until you took the skill point out yourself by respeccing.
It was unprecedented, a change from past practice.
Why was this one different? Because there's a way to monetize it.
Certainly seems that way - There was no official notice explaining why they could not go with one of the many options suggested. Not cool. What's next?2 -
FinrodMacBeorn✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »My feelings are:
(3) Vigor is a big help for people leveling first character.
(4) Loss of rapids will be missed when leveling alts and trying to do things as fast as possible, which is a far less important consideration than #3.
Personally, I got more value from rapids leveling my alts, but I have 18 max level characters at this point. There were times though when doing random dungeons on those alts where I really missed having vigor. I can imagine this is far more significant for newer players.
I have leveled stamchars of all kind to 50 and never needed vigor. Brawler, Rally and potions were enough to survive the few critical situations (WBs and dungeons). Of course, in dungeons you should have some kind of a healer!
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madrab73✭✭✭✭✭It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.
Ah No! I was Assault Level 4 1/2 and it took an hour half in BG's to get to Level 5. I don't wanna know how long it's gonna take my toons that are assault level 2.
You do realise you can jump into Cyrodiil and repair walls?0 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I hope yall like lvl 10s with *** armor in BGs.. cause I guess I'll be spending a bit of time doing my absolute worst there.6 -
johnebrown✭✭✭SydneyGrey wrote: »
Your way of playing is not any more valid than anyone else's way of playing, so stop with the condescending attitude. You are not more important than anyone else.SydneyGrey wrote: »They only care about PvP, dungeons and trials. They really don't care about players who like to make a dozen alts for fun, or who roleplay. They want to force everyone to do PvP even if they don't want to. Looks like they've ignored all the suggestions people gave them that would work better for everyone.
They could have just added Rapids as the first unlock in the Soul Magic line, but noooo ....
PvP, dungeons and trials are the primary activities of this game, making alts and roleplay are not, that's why we get new dungeons and trials every patch. The majority of players create characters to actually achieve something in the game, no wonder the devs would make stuff convenient for them. Hanging out in Riften inn is irrelevant to any progression in the game.
I don't do roleplay, but I DO enjoy making a lot of alts for fun. This change just killed my desire to make more characters.
I never said that PvE/P players are more important, I said that they play the actual game the way it was designed, not spend the time chatting to other players. Why these changes should mean anything to roleplayers is beyond me.PvP, dungeons and trials are the primary activities of this game, making alts and roleplay are not, that's why we get new dungeons and trials every patch.
And that is why all in-game zones are pvp zones, and we are leaving pvp only to enter dungeon or trial... Oh, wait...
If that is how *you* play that does not mean everyone else play that way. And there are alot of other locations in game except Cyrodiil, dungeons and trials. It is easily seen just by opening the map
That's how everyone I know plays this game. Do people really do the same zone quests over and over with dozens of toons?
Well, what are dailies for? There are many different types & they repeat. So do dungeons. Does it matter if people do the same zones quests or dailies or dungeons with multiple toons? Most people in the guilds I've been in get alts as soon as they can for various reasons - crafting writs is one good example, and speed definitely matters there.
Play whatever way makes you happy.1 -
FinrodMacBeorn✭✭✭It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.
Ah No! I was Assault Level 4 1/2 and it took an hour half in BG's to get to Level 5. I don't wanna know how long it's gonna take my toons that are assault level 2.
You do realise you can jump into Cyrodiil and repair walls?
And how many tedious hours does this take?
But a more serious advice for people wanting to level assault rank now:
Group with friends who have rapids to provide it to you, spam AoE damage skills or - if in a large group - AoE heals. And do it soon as the AoE tests coming to Cyrodiil in about 2 weeks will be detrimental to AP gain for some time.
Alternatively, go the battlegrounds route recommended in previous posts.
For serious pvpers: Expect longer prime time queues.
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Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The ship has sailed, @Sgrug ... as many forum-goers have already pointed out in your thread.0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DarcyMardin wrote: »TheRealPotoroo wrote: »
Agreed. If it’s so quick and easy to get to level 5 in assault, why all the previous complaints about how long it took stam characters to get vigor?
Those complaints were made by the same people that are now complaining about rapids now.
What PvE players seem to want is all PvP skills handed to them without doing the content.
I admit I wish the same thong could be done for undaunted for PvP players but grit my teeth and do the content anyway.2 -
johnebrown✭✭✭ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »They only care about PvP, dungeons and trials. They really don't care about players who like to make a dozen alts for fun, or who roleplay. They want to force everyone to do PvP even if they don't want to. Looks like they've ignored all the suggestions people gave them that would work better for everyone.
They could have just added Rapids as the first unlock in the Soul Magic line, but noooo ....
PvP, dungeons and trials are the primary activities of this game, making alts and roleplay are not, that's why we get new dungeons and trials every patch. The majority of players create characters to actually achieve something in the game, no wonder the devs would make stuff convenient for them. Hanging out in Riften inn is irrelevant to any progression in the game.
Its primary activity is -everything the game has to offer-, as all are, at some point, tied into each other.
You said it yourself. Everything is interconnected. You can't really cherrypick, you want Rapids, work to get it.
Personally I do every activity provided by the game (not the players). I have 9 toons and even my tank and healer are at Support 6 for Barrier. It's one of the most valuable skills and it happens to be in a PvP skill line because again, PvE and PvP aspects of the game are interconnected. It is a good game design.
I just went to cyro and got it, it's not that hard even for a PvE tank. You don't even need to go to cyro, just lose 12 BG matches and reach your level 5. Either way is about 2 hours per character.
Most of the people complaining already DID something to get the skill.6 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭johnebrown wrote: »ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »They only care about PvP, dungeons and trials. They really don't care about players who like to make a dozen alts for fun, or who roleplay. They want to force everyone to do PvP even if they don't want to. Looks like they've ignored all the suggestions people gave them that would work better for everyone.
They could have just added Rapids as the first unlock in the Soul Magic line, but noooo ....
PvP, dungeons and trials are the primary activities of this game, making alts and roleplay are not, that's why we get new dungeons and trials every patch. The majority of players create characters to actually achieve something in the game, no wonder the devs would make stuff convenient for them. Hanging out in Riften inn is irrelevant to any progression in the game.
Its primary activity is -everything the game has to offer-, as all are, at some point, tied into each other.
You said it yourself. Everything is interconnected. You can't really cherrypick, you want Rapids, work to get it.
Personally I do every activity provided by the game (not the players). I have 9 toons and even my tank and healer are at Support 6 for Barrier. It's one of the most valuable skills and it happens to be in a PvP skill line because again, PvE and PvP aspects of the game are interconnected. It is a good game design.
I just went to cyro and got it, it's not that hard even for a PvE tank. You don't even need to go to cyro, just lose 12 BG matches and reach your level 5. Either way is about 2 hours per character.
Most of the people complaining already DID something to get the skill.
For rapids, you mean doing the Welcome to Cyrodiil quest where you don't even see an enemy player?
On the bright side you can now get the best stamina heal in the game without seeing an enemy player. lolEdited by TequilaFire on August 24, 2020 8:42PM0 -
JR_Returns✭✭✭I don't have too much of a problem losing rapids. I've got the Ring of the Wild Hunt which means my character now runs faster than my mount. So this change just means that I'll no longer be spending crowns on mounts.1
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johnebrown✭✭✭Let's see how the defenders of change will sing when there is always a crowd of noobs on their side.
And they will simply because they need this skill.
Well, maybe these crowds of noobs will learn something and become interested in PvP. I, for myself, was never toxic to new players in PvP and, contrary to the popular belief, many PvP'ers aren't either.
This is very true. I have standing offers from many people to help me learn how to PVP. I'm just not interested in it right now. And most of the PVPer's in my guilds seem no different in demeaner than those that just PVE. Many do both.
Assuming that a player, whether PVP or PVE, is mean, cruel, lazy, stupid, doesn't play the game "right", or is intolerant of anyone who isn't part of their "group" is a dangerous road to go down and doesn't get us anywhere.
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JR_Returns wrote: »I don't have too much of a problem losing rapids. I've got the Ring of the Wild Hunt which means my character now runs faster than my mount. So this change just means that I'll no longer be spending crowns on mounts.
You must have a slow horse. If your horse is maxed, you cant run faster than a horse with a RotWH ring. There are speed caps in play. Sprint speed is capped at 200%, mount speed is capped at I believe 230% (someone correct me if I am wrong), because you can also have Major Gallup.
Now, you do bring up a different issue. Let's say someone like myself with a lot of alts is considering grinding rapids for them after the change. The question is, what is faster. Grinding a new Ring (I already have 2) or grinding Rapids. My guess is with a little RNG, you could get another ring faster, especially if the alternative is to perhaps level an alt in cyro that might not be totally geared or leveled the way you want, or is simply not a class you are used to playing in PVP. With a little RNG, you can grind a hunt ring in probably 3 hours or so.1 -
johnebrown✭✭✭In other news, completely unrelated of course, ZOS is pleased to announce an uptick in Crown Store Riding Lessons. GO TEAM!
I have 15 toons on my main that are maxed in all aspects of riding skill and I STILL us rapids on all of them as it gives a substantial boost in speed.
Oh & thanks for locking my rapids but keeping the skill point ZOS. Not cool.
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johnebrown✭✭✭First world propband its hilarious to call out on zos because they secretly wanted to sell more riding books, cuz you know everyone has 17 chars that SOME REASON need rapid manouver.
I have rapids on many toons, use it on the bar of exactly one of those, my gatherer. Cyro needs it admittedly, rest of ESO world the zones are really too small and twisty/multileveled to use it to much effect despite all the many rationalizations to the contrary. First world problem, still waiting for some logical, reasonable rationale for needing it on a multitude of alts, doubt we'll be seeing that anytime soon other than "but but... I wants it!"
OTOH, a majority of stam toons doing any group content can use vigor. Great change.
There were other options suggested that would give you your vigor without removing rapids from others.
There is a reason why it is on all 54 of my subbed toons. I didn't put it there just to be a completest. If you really want to know the rational: I don't like slow horses when I start a new toon. Rationale #2: Crafting alts. Rapids saves a substantial amount of time when you have a lot of them. Those are rational and valid reasons.
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AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »johnebrown wrote: »It is done. You guys have been creating these threads for 5 weeks and it got you nowhere. They won't do anything about it, no matter how loud you are.
Got us nowhere? So we did it all in vain? I think not. Sometimes they do make changes based on feedback. If you don't try, they definitely won't change.
Look at all the vMA weapons threads. We got the same level of response on that one as well. At this point people were actually ignorant (to no fault of their own) or willfully ignorant.
Oddly enough, the same response can be used for all of us who advocated for changing existing weapons to perfected. "Get back to grinding"
But they didn't take your existing weapons away. You got to keep what you already had.
If they had introduced a "super-rapids" at Assault 10 that made it so you always have Major Gallop when on a horse, and left the original rapids as is, you would not hear a peep from me.
And again, many people suggested swapping Vigor with Siege Shield instead of Rapids so that people could unlock both at the same time.The Moot Councillor5 -
DarcyMardin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People are fuming in my various guilds. I am fuming too.TequilaFire wrote: »DarcyMardin wrote: »TheRealPotoroo wrote: »
Agreed. If it’s so quick and easy to get to level 5 in assault, why all the previous complaints about how long it took stam characters to get vigor?
Those complaints were made by the same people that are now complaining about rapids now.
What PvE players seem to want is all PvP skills handed to them without doing the content.
I admit I wish the same thong could be done for undaunted for PvP players but grit my teeth and do the content anyway.
Nobody wants anything “handed to them.” What we object to is having a skill that, in many cases, we have been using every day for *years* taken away from us. My stam characters who need vigor already earned it at assault level 5 by doing the PvP I dislike and suck at. I’ve dragged myself into Cyrodiil plenty of times to level up certain skills...but before doing so, I already had a horse that could keep up with the group, because we all got Rapids at character level 10 as soon as we first entered Cyrodiil.
Changing that basic progression after 6 years is a low blow that could have been avoided if the decision makers had given a little more thought to the repercussions. But, just as with the VMA weapon change, they clearly don’t pay any attention to what the players think.
Edited by DarcyMardin on August 24, 2020 9:37PM7 -
Nicole94✭✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »
Correct, which is also true about a lot of other skills... purge, barrier, vigor (at least it was), warhorn, etc...
I understand, people want to go as fast as possible and limit the exposure to ZoS environment, but pretty much like every other change its a learn to adapt issue. And let's not act like the crown store alternative for buying horse speed wasn't taken into consideration here, as there is obviously more cause to buy them now.
I don't want to sound rude, but this statement shows you either do very little Cyrodiil, or it has been a LONG time since you leveled one.
A new player, or character just starting out, right now, could be ok as there might be a lot of people grinding out another level or two to get rapids, but in a few weeks? You will not only be the weakest, you will also be the slowest.
A player "grinding out vigor" (I have done it on 6 characters) SUCKED, it did, but you could also get into a group and, with rapids, keep up with more powerful players that could rez, heal or help you. Now, you will not only be the weakest, you will be the slowest.
Nothing spells happiness more than finally getting to the flag, that just finished flipping because everyone else had rapids, or repeatedly getting ganked because you are low hanging fruit.
The ONLY people that could be happy about this is pve people. Vigor sucks when you first get it in pvp, but great in pve for stam characters. Lets see how much the pvp stam characters LOVE having that 200 health regen when you are getting ganked by someone, who caught you with rapids, that you will not have for 2 more LONG, SLOW levels. Forget about a zerg or ball group, no one is waiting for slow mo....3 -
Canned_Apples✭✭✭✭✭
✭IDoesn't even affect me and I think it was an ignorant and stupid decision. You really need to start listening to your player feedback .....
I don't know what you're going on about because zos always listens to their player base.
We asked for more powerful dots, and they gave them to us. We asked for more proc sets, and they gave them to us. We asked for more p2w items to buff broken proc sets, and they gave it to us.
Zos cares. Zos listens.0 -
Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience
Rapids has been in first for years.. as a magic user, I don't understand why the change to help builds focused on Stamina. Will this actually help stam players? What good is this change to magic users? All builds can use rapids, not just stam builds. It was a really good entry skill for all players, not so with vigor... it is only useful for stam builds as magic builds don't need it. Shouldn't an entry skill be something for everyone? Bad on you Zos for once again making changes that take away from the fun, not add to it. Rapids was one skill I advised new players to get and it got them to give the PVP zone a try... guess I won't be bothering with that one anymore.. you really don't give a damn about your players do you.9 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »johnebrown wrote: »It is done. You guys have been creating these threads for 5 weeks and it got you nowhere. They won't do anything about it, no matter how loud you are.
Got us nowhere? So we did it all in vain? I think not. Sometimes they do make changes based on feedback. If you don't try, they definitely won't change.
Look at all the vMA weapons threads. We got the same level of response on that one as well. At this point people were actually ignorant (to no fault of their own) or willfully ignorant.
Oddly enough, the same response can be used for all of us who advocated for changing existing weapons to perfected. "Get back to grinding"
But they didn't take your existing weapons away. You got to keep what you already had.
If they had introduced a "super-rapids" at Assault 10 that made it so you always have Major Gallop when on a horse, and left the original rapids as is, you would not hear a peep from me.
And again, many people suggested swapping Vigor with Siege Shield instead of Rapids so that people could unlock both at the same time.
In that regard they didnt take away your alliance war rank, just changed the skill associated with it.
And I'm well aware that many people suggested different ways to change around the skill lines. That doesnt change what they decided to do.1 -
Gythral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Best bug yet :-
Locked but marked as 'can morph'
And accepting that morph skill point - base to charging manouver & being available to use ...
On a side note - I didnt like Battlegrounds before tonight & my opinion of them has only gone down since!
“Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy2 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That's an insulting thing to say. Rapids is NOT a PvP-only skill. It's every bit as useful while running around overland doing quests, collecting skyshards and whatever. I don't want my time wasted on a game that just became Slow Horse Simulator on every new character I make from now on. How about you start a new character and try going into Cyrodiil to get Rapids now ... WITHOUT buying riding lessons? Go ahead. Let us know how it went.TequilaFire wrote: »Those complaints were made by the same people that are now complaining about rapids now.
What PvE players seem to want is all PvP skills handed to them without doing the content.
I admit I wish the same thong could be done for undaunted for PvP players but grit my teeth and do the content anyway.
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anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let's see how the defenders of change will sing when there is always a crowd of noobs on their side.
And they will simply because they need this skill.
Well, maybe these crowds of noobs will learn something and become interested in PvP. I, for myself, was never toxic to new players in PvP and, contrary to the popular belief, many PvP'ers aren't either.
Requiring someone to do something rarely encourages them to like it, in fact the opposite tends to happen.
Depends how you see it... thin line between "forcing" and "encouraging". In this case it's highly psychological. "Old" players have always considered rapids as something "given" and vigor as a skill that needs to be earned. Because that's how it's been designed so far. Now it's the other way round, and new players will consider vigor as given and rapids as something that needs to be earned (or bought... not a minor thing, though). That's all.
Note that I belong to the "oldtimers" and I'm totally irritated by this change. But I wouldn't if I were new.
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