blendertoes wrote: »@blendertoes I'm not faking a parse here. I've done a bunch of frags parses and i pretty consistently get 84k compared to crushing shock where i get consistently 88k.
You can try and math your way around it as much as you like, but it's doing 5% less damage and comes with further draw backs.
The fact remains that the skill is clunky to use compared to an instant cast time and every parse i've seen with it is lower than a standard spammable.
It's a dps loss to run it.
It does give us some options, especially for things like running 2 pets and an execute, but from a pure dps stand point it's not good.
Slow your roll. I was not trying to suggest you were “faking” a parse, just pointing out that RNG plays a big factor in sorc DPS and the two parses you posted don’t prove anything.
I posted this in the Combat section but reckon the question stands for here as well.....
"ok wait...just tested this and it is not as slow as it was and actually feels pretty good casting, and it procs itself...is this what you all are talking about? Hard casting it now due to changes?"
That was in response to the "new" frags and how it was going to be used, or not used. Personally it didnt feel all that bad to me but as has been mentioned, its a bit like Wrecking Blow or even Snipe for that matter...actually a tad faster. And from range I think it will be smoother.
But I am a complete Magsorc rookie so what I like or dont like really means f all.....lol.
I posted this in the Combat section but reckon the question stands for here as well.....
"ok wait...just tested this and it is not as slow as it was and actually feels pretty good casting, and it procs itself...is this what you all are talking about? Hard casting it now due to changes?"
That was in response to the "new" frags and how it was going to be used, or not used. Personally it didnt feel all that bad to me but as has been mentioned, its a bit like Wrecking Blow or even Snipe for that matter...actually a tad faster. And from range I think it will be smoother.
But I am a complete Magsorc rookie so what I like or dont like really means f all.....lol.
Yes.
It feels ok, it's significantly better than it was before.
It has very good sustain and you can ditch dark conversion if you're running it.
It's also a dps loss compared to every other spammable available if you're running it as a spammable.
5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.
Olupajmibanan wrote: »5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.
That would be true if it had no cast time at all. Cast time is a major downside and on top of that it offers less damage than standard instanc cast spammable. IMO Blood Magic + sustain + free slot is enough to make up for the damage loss, but isn't enough to make up for the cast time. Definitely isn't enough to make up for both.
Olupajmibanan wrote: »5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.
That would be true if it had no cast time at all. Cast time is a major downside and on top of that it offers less damage than standard instanc cast spammable. IMO Blood Magic + sustain + free slot is enough to make up for the damage loss, but isn't enough to make up for the cast time. Definitely isn't enough to make up for both.
WB has a wind up..same with Snipe......the one on frags really isnt that bad..."feels" pretty dang quick to be honest. Sure, its still a cast time...but not a deal breaker for sure.
YandereGirlfriend wrote: »It is super easy to weave with Wrecking Blow once you get used to it.
I don't expect that the new Crystal Weapon should feel much different.
Lethal Arrow is a whole different story though, is it even possible to weave consistently with a full 1 second channel?
universal_wrath wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.
That would be true if it had no cast time at all. Cast time is a major downside and on top of that it offers less damage than standard instanc cast spammable. IMO Blood Magic + sustain + free slot is enough to make up for the damage loss, but isn't enough to make up for the cast time. Definitely isn't enough to make up for both.
WB has a wind up..same with Snipe......the one on frags really isnt that bad..."feels" pretty dang quick to be honest. Sure, its still a cast time...but not a deal breaker for sure.
Problem is the cast time on snip and WB are justifiable as both skills yave very high tooltips in comparuson to other instant cast skills. The new crystal shard deals about same damage as elemntal weapon or even less, abd elemntal weapob us weakest spammable when you read tooltip, but ut compensate for garnteed status effect proc. Now you have cast time spammable that is weak, and RNG attached to at to promote its power.
They should either make it instant xast or increaee its damage to better line up with snipe and WB.
I have done extensive testing on the PTS to determine the viability for the new Crystal Frags as a spammable. With a heavy heart I must inform you that this is probably a "no go", unless you are super hard up for a skill slot on your front bar (run Medusa, you'll lose less DPS than choosing C.Frags to open a skill slot). Sustain is a small amount better than Elemental weapon but damage is a 3.5-5k DPS loss depending on rotation.
This assumes that you are using C.Frag proc when it comes up for both spammables. I even slotted Bound Armor on front bar for additional Magicka and the 2% spell damage bonus when running C.Frags a a spammable. but it still fell woefully short. Due to the nature of Elemental Weapon, its passives, and the status effects it causes, it is the clear winner. Due to them both being direct Magicka damage abilities there are no buffs I can work out that would affect one more than the other to give Crystal Frag the lead.
Attributing factors in actual combat scenario:
Cast time of Frags - small loss, in some cases evens out with Elemental Weapon without passives (Depends on weaving proficiency).
Elemental Weapon passive Spell orb - pulls the dps ahead even more.
Dummy Punching:
Cast time of Frags - same as above
Spell Orb passive for E.Wep - same as above
Concussion, Chill, and burning additional uptime. - minimal DPS increase... but it's still an increase.
Other Considerations:
When you block with E.Wep on your bar you get a free shield.
Potential Solutions:
I don't care. Let ZOS figure it out. Maybe this is a "For PVP" change? It definitely doesn't seem to be for PVE. It seems that nothing changes from Meta (for non vamps), so at least no one should be upset or up in arms about it because it equates to non-change changes and ultimately for PVE it can be ignored whether the magicka morph changes go through or not. I would like the PVPers take on this as it may have a specific purpose for PVP.
I have done extensive testing on the PTS to determine the viability for the new Crystal Frags as a spammable. With a heavy heart I must inform you that this is probably a "no go", unless you are super hard up for a skill slot on your front bar (run Medusa, you'll lose less DPS than choosing C.Frags to open a skill slot). Sustain is a small amount better than Elemental weapon but damage is a 3.5-5k DPS loss depending on rotation.
This assumes that you are using C.Frag proc when it comes up for both spammables. I even slotted Bound Armor on front bar for additional Magicka and the 2% spell damage bonus when running C.Frags a a spammable. but it still fell woefully short. Due to the nature of Elemental Weapon, its passives, and the status effects it causes, it is the clear winner. Due to them both being direct Magicka damage abilities there are no buffs I can work out that would affect one more than the other to give Crystal Frag the lead.
Attributing factors in actual combat scenario:
Cast time of Frags - small loss, in some cases evens out with Elemental Weapon without passives (Depends on weaving proficiency).
Elemental Weapon passive Spell orb - pulls the dps ahead even more.
Dummy Punching:
Cast time of Frags - same as above
Spell Orb passive for E.Wep - same as above
Concussion, Chill, and burning additional uptime. - minimal DPS increase... but it's still an increase.
Other Considerations:
When you block with E.Wep on your bar you get a free shield.
Potential Solutions:
I don't care. Let ZOS figure it out. Maybe this is a "For PVP" change? It definitely doesn't seem to be for PVE. It seems that nothing changes from Meta (for non vamps), so at least no one should be upset or up in arms about it because it equates to non-change changes and ultimately for PVE it can be ignored whether the magicka morph changes go through or not. I would like the PVPers take on this as it may have a specific purpose for PVP.
Can you sunmerise the change? I'm a PvPer and whilst Frag is woeful compared to its old self with the stun, it's important part of burst.
Cast time was too long for a spammable.
MashmalloMan wrote: »
Cast time was too long for a spammable.
Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.
Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.
This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.
MashmalloMan wrote: »
Cast time was too long for a spammable.
Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.
Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.
This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.
No, it was never intended as a spammable. It would have proc'ed itself if it was. Just as it does now. Crystal Blast's AoE was meant as an add clear. Much like Snipe is supposed to be a a debuff or burst from very far away and Dark Flare much alike. Frags were clearly designed to be the single-target morph and be used alongside a real spammable.
The initial design philosophy was to create classes with one aspect missing. It's an execute for DKs, it used to be a burst heal for NBs. If sorcs had had a spammable all along, what are they missing? It's only recently that ZOS are changing core design philosophy.
MashmalloMan wrote: »
Cast time was too long for a spammable.
Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.
Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.
This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.
No, it was never intended as a spammable. It would have proc'ed itself if it was. Just as it does now. Crystal Blast's AoE was meant as an add clear. Much like Snipe is supposed to be a a debuff or burst from very far away and Dark Flare much alike. Frags were clearly designed to be the single-target morph and be used alongside a real spammable.
The initial design philosophy was to create classes with one aspect missing. It's an execute for DKs, it used to be a burst heal for NBs. If sorcs had had a spammable all along, what are they missing? It's only recently that ZOS are changing core design philosophy.
MashmalloMan wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »
Cast time was too long for a spammable.
Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.
Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.
This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.
No, it was never intended as a spammable. It would have proc'ed itself if it was. Just as it does now. Crystal Blast's AoE was meant as an add clear. Much like Snipe is supposed to be a a debuff or burst from very far away and Dark Flare much alike. Frags were clearly designed to be the single-target morph and be used alongside a real spammable.
The initial design philosophy was to create classes with one aspect missing. It's an execute for DKs, it used to be a burst heal for NBs. If sorcs had had a spammable all along, what are they missing? It's only recently that ZOS are changing core design philosophy.
Honestly I don't disagree with you, I never thought of it as a spammble before and I agree with the idea that every class has their obvious downsides as you listed, but the other comments are right, it's not a coincidence that the damage and cast time ends up the same as Snipe and players seem to use that very well as a spammable in pve, it's not just used as a far ranged debuff or burst skill like you stated. It's the best bow/bow spammable available currently. Not a single class spammable outdoes what Snipe can do and it's because of the weapon passives related to it.
So looking back at the frags before the reduction in damage, cast time and quality of life change to proc itself this patch, it could of technically been used as a spammable all along, even if poorly designed, we really don't know how ZOS conisdered the skill internally and judging by some of their awful logic, I wouldn't be surprised that they did in fact think of it as Sorc's spammable. 1 thing remains clear, despite the obvious shift to being classified as a spammable this patch, most class spammables suck because they have nothing boosting their damage beyond what weapon spammables are capable of.
My point still stands, the original cast time of 1s did not mean it couldn't be considered a spammable. The fact that it was garbage to use and didn't proc itself did prevent it from being competitive. In a meta that heavily relies on light attack weaving, a longer cast time spammable can only be justified by increasing its damage to compensate for less light attacks and more risk involved like it does with jabs/sweeps, snipe and even wrecking blow, all of which outclass other instant options available.
But to your original point, yeah maybe DK's deserve an execute now if Sorcs now have everything but a traditional dot covered. I personally don't want them to take that route because it's kinda boring for class identity. It's nice to have some classes be great for front loaded dps (Sorc, Amplitude Passive, Tormentor), back loaded execute dps (NB/Templar/Necro) or more of a middle ground (DK/Warden). I'd much rather prefer ZOS to offer magicka universal executes in the destruction staff skill morphs like Pulsar (parallels DW Whirling Blades) and/or Destructive Reach (parallels Bow Poison Injection) so people at least have the option.
ZOS can delete Endless Fury for all I care, crappy design, low damage, only great for kill stealing in pvp, sucks for pve dps.
YandereGirlfriend wrote: »I had actually hoped that ZOS would recycle one of the Endless Fury morphs into their Sorcerer spammable.
I would love to do more actual Lightning damage as a Sorc rather than being funneled into generic Magic damage.
MashmalloMan wrote: »I have done extensive testing on the PTS to determine the viability for the new Crystal Frags as a spammable. With a heavy heart I must inform you that this is probably a "no go", unless you are super hard up for a skill slot on your front bar (run Medusa, you'll lose less DPS than choosing C.Frags to open a skill slot). Sustain is a small amount better than Elemental weapon but damage is a 3.5-5k DPS loss depending on rotation.
This assumes that you are using C.Frag proc when it comes up for both spammables. I even slotted Bound Armor on front bar for additional Magicka and the 2% spell damage bonus when running C.Frags a a spammable. but it still fell woefully short. Due to the nature of Elemental Weapon, its passives, and the status effects it causes, it is the clear winner. Due to them both being direct Magicka damage abilities there are no buffs I can work out that would affect one more than the other to give Crystal Frag the lead.
Attributing factors in actual combat scenario:
Cast time of Frags - small loss, in some cases evens out with Elemental Weapon without passives (Depends on weaving proficiency).
Elemental Weapon passive Spell orb - pulls the dps ahead even more.
Dummy Punching:
Cast time of Frags - same as above
Spell Orb passive for E.Wep - same as above
Concussion, Chill, and burning additional uptime. - minimal DPS increase... but it's still an increase.
Other Considerations:
When you block with E.Wep on your bar you get a free shield.
Potential Solutions:
I don't care. Let ZOS figure it out. Maybe this is a "For PVP" change? It definitely doesn't seem to be for PVE. It seems that nothing changes from Meta (for non vamps), so at least no one should be upset or up in arms about it because it equates to non-change changes and ultimately for PVE it can be ignored whether the magicka morph changes go through or not. I would like the PVPers take on this as it may have a specific purpose for PVP.
Can you sunmerise the change? I'm a PvPer and whilst Frag is woeful compared to its old self with the stun, it's important part of burst.
For pvp.. probably no change for you since cast time + minimum travel time = a very crappy pvp spammable.. along with the fact that you can interupt the cast time making it somewhat of a death sentence to Crushing Shock users. The changes are mainly focussed on making the skill have a multi purpose function for the same old burst skill we know and love in pve content.
Base:
- Lowered cast time and damage slighty to make it easier to weave within 1 gcd.
- Base skill now gives -10% cost to the next non ultimate skill used.
- Base skill can proc the instant cast frag.
- Can save a skill slot because you no longer need to use a dedicated spammable if hard casting this skill.
Instant Frag Proc:
- It's almost identical to live so anyone who wants to continue using it as an occasional burst skill can if you don't like cast time spammables. The damage was decreased by about 1% give or take when comparing the instant proc from live to pts.
It seems to be about 4-5% pve dps loss by running this skill as a spammable. Which as others mentioned is because there is no relevent passive that brings the damage of using this skill beyond that of Crushing Shock/FP or Ele Weapon which all have additional benefits through Status Procs, AOE, Direct Damage and weapon passives.
Where this skill shines is utility. It can save you 1 skill slot, increased sustain and offers self healing without the need to use something like Crit Surge. A lot of people will find use from this, especially double pet sorcs and people who maybe want to run more utility skills like shields, surge or slotting inner light to save money on Major Prophecy. Healers who want to dish out some damage occasionaly while also providing high Minor Crit uptime. There is a ton of very nice use case scenarios beyond "dps isn't better so it's worthless.".
The only fix I'd want for it is something like the Dark Magic passive to deal 10% of your health as damage along with the 10% health return and it would easily be on par with everything else in the game... at least for parse dps. Some people will never like cast times so that's up for debate, the fact that you can interupt it also makes it very risky to use and warrants the skill dealing more dps than typical spammables.