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Crystal Frag Changes: Results

  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    Tannus15 wrote: »
    @blendertoes I'm not faking a parse here. I've done a bunch of frags parses and i pretty consistently get 84k compared to crushing shock where i get consistently 88k.
    You can try and math your way around it as much as you like, but it's doing 5% less damage and comes with further draw backs.

    The fact remains that the skill is clunky to use compared to an instant cast time and every parse i've seen with it is lower than a standard spammable.

    It's a dps loss to run it.

    It does give us some options, especially for things like running 2 pets and an execute, but from a pure dps stand point it's not good.

    Slow your roll. I was not trying to suggest you were “faking” a parse, just pointing out that RNG plays a big factor in sorc DPS and the two parses you posted don’t prove anything.

    Honestly a 21m parse isn't that RNG. Like I said, I can consistently get 88k dps on my normal build, maybe low 89k, maybe high 87k but definitely within those boundaries. I certainly don't have massive 4k+ swings.

    I've done a bunch of parses with frags as spammable and it's always in the 84k range, which lines up pretty much perfectly with what @Pyatra has reported.

    So you've got 2 people who have done a series of tests, providing what they are saying is representative data on performance and you're choosing to not only disregard the data put before you, but also their statements with no other data to counter it.
  • Joxer61
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    I posted this in the Combat section but reckon the question stands for here as well.....

    "ok wait...just tested this and it is not as slow as it was and actually feels pretty good casting, and it procs itself...is this what you all are talking about? Hard casting it now due to changes?"

    That was in response to the "new" frags and how it was going to be used, or not used. Personally it didnt feel all that bad to me but as has been mentioned, its a bit like Wrecking Blow or even Snipe for that matter...actually a tad faster. And from range I think it will be smoother.
    But I am a complete Magsorc rookie so what I like or dont like really means f all.....lol. ;)
  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    I posted this in the Combat section but reckon the question stands for here as well.....

    "ok wait...just tested this and it is not as slow as it was and actually feels pretty good casting, and it procs itself...is this what you all are talking about? Hard casting it now due to changes?"

    That was in response to the "new" frags and how it was going to be used, or not used. Personally it didnt feel all that bad to me but as has been mentioned, its a bit like Wrecking Blow or even Snipe for that matter...actually a tad faster. And from range I think it will be smoother.
    But I am a complete Magsorc rookie so what I like or dont like really means f all.....lol. ;)

    Yes.
    It feels ok, it's significantly better than it was before.
    It has very good sustain and you can ditch dark conversion if you're running it.

    It's also a dps loss compared to every other spammable available if you're running it as a spammable.
  • Joxer61
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    Tannus15 wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    I posted this in the Combat section but reckon the question stands for here as well.....

    "ok wait...just tested this and it is not as slow as it was and actually feels pretty good casting, and it procs itself...is this what you all are talking about? Hard casting it now due to changes?"

    That was in response to the "new" frags and how it was going to be used, or not used. Personally it didnt feel all that bad to me but as has been mentioned, its a bit like Wrecking Blow or even Snipe for that matter...actually a tad faster. And from range I think it will be smoother.
    But I am a complete Magsorc rookie so what I like or dont like really means f all.....lol. ;)

    Yes.
    It feels ok, it's significantly better than it was before.
    It has very good sustain and you can ditch dark conversion if you're running it.

    It's also a dps loss compared to every other spammable available if you're running it as a spammable.

    yeah I dont mind a bit of a loss in exchange for using class skills, just feels better to me to use them vs say Ele weapon, which I loathe. Not chasing the big numbers so as long as its hitting ok and has a fluid feel to it im good...but cheers for the info! ;)
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    Let me be the first (if only in this thread) to mention that something not being BiS does not mean that it's trash.

    A difference of 84k to 88k is ~4.5% and is completely trivial and likely not even perceptible to anyone not attempting to top the charts of leaderboards.

    That said, of course I support the new Frags being brought up to more closely match the other spammable options (though the Blood Magic passive) but it is fatally flawed thinking for 99.95% of the ESO playerbase to frame the issue as "BiS or bust."
  • robpr
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    5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.
  • Olupajmibanan
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    robpr wrote: »
    5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.

    That would be true if it had no cast time at all. Cast time is a major downside and on top of that it offers less damage than standard instanc cast spammable. IMO Blood Magic + sustain + free slot is enough to make up for the damage loss, but isn't enough to make up for the cast time. Definitely isn't enough to make up for both.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on August 20, 2020 12:40PM
  • Joxer61
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    robpr wrote: »
    5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.

    That would be true if it had no cast time at all. Cast time is a major downside and on top of that it offers less damage than standard instanc cast spammable. IMO Blood Magic + sustain + free slot is enough to make up for the damage loss, but isn't enough to make up for the cast time. Definitely isn't enough to make up for both.

    WB has a wind up..same with Snipe......the one on frags really isnt that bad..."feels" pretty dang quick to be honest. Sure, its still a cast time...but not a deal breaker for sure.
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    It is super easy to weave with Wrecking Blow once you get used to it.

    I don't expect that the new Crystal Weapon should feel much different.

    Lethal Arrow is a whole different story though, is it even possible to weave consistently with a full 1 second channel?
  • universal_wrath
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    robpr wrote: »
    5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.

    That would be true if it had no cast time at all. Cast time is a major downside and on top of that it offers less damage than standard instanc cast spammable. IMO Blood Magic + sustain + free slot is enough to make up for the damage loss, but isn't enough to make up for the cast time. Definitely isn't enough to make up for both.

    WB has a wind up..same with Snipe......the one on frags really isnt that bad..."feels" pretty dang quick to be honest. Sure, its still a cast time...but not a deal breaker for sure.

    Problem is the cast time on snip and WB are justifiable as both skills yave very high tooltips in comparuson to other instant cast skills. The new crystal shard deals about same damage as elemntal weapon or even less, abd elemntal weapob us weakest spammable when you read tooltip, but ut compensate for garnteed status effect proc. Now you have cast time spammable that is weak, and RNG attached to at to promote its power.

    They should either make it instant xast or increaee its damage to better line up with snipe and WB.
  • universal_wrath
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    It is super easy to weave with Wrecking Blow once you get used to it.

    I don't expect that the new Crystal Weapon should feel much different.

    Lethal Arrow is a whole different story though, is it even possible to weave consistently with a full 1 second channel?

    very possible, you jusr need to train and build muscle memory.

    If you have used crushing weapon which is psijic spammable, crystal weapon will feel very similar. I personally did not like crushing weapon is a melee skill because due to positioning purposes, sometimes I can't LA properly thys make the whole skill useless as so supposed to WB
  • the1andonlyskwex
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    robpr wrote: »
    5% damage over better sustain and constant healing (that always was a problem to fit Crit Surge with 2 pets), I think its a good trade-off.

    That would be true if it had no cast time at all. Cast time is a major downside and on top of that it offers less damage than standard instanc cast spammable. IMO Blood Magic + sustain + free slot is enough to make up for the damage loss, but isn't enough to make up for the cast time. Definitely isn't enough to make up for both.

    WB has a wind up..same with Snipe......the one on frags really isnt that bad..."feels" pretty dang quick to be honest. Sure, its still a cast time...but not a deal breaker for sure.

    Problem is the cast time on snip and WB are justifiable as both skills yave very high tooltips in comparuson to other instant cast skills. The new crystal shard deals about same damage as elemntal weapon or even less, abd elemntal weapob us weakest spammable when you read tooltip, but ut compensate for garnteed status effect proc. Now you have cast time spammable that is weak, and RNG attached to at to promote its power.

    They should either make it instant xast or increaee its damage to better line up with snipe and WB.

    Old Frags has basically the same cast time and damage as Snipe (and Dark Flare). New Frags does less damage because it has a shorter cast time. Frags will always have less damage than wrecking blow because wrecking blow is melee.

    The main issue, which applies to all mag class spammables, is that the Psijic and Destruction Staff passives are too good to pass up. They may not be generally better than class passives, but you usually benefit from class passives no matter what spammables you choose, while you only benefit from the non-class passives when you use skills from those lines. The net result is that the non-class spammables provide increased DPS py providing access to passives you wouldn't benefit from otherwise.

    In short, ZOS needs to do the passive rebalance they claimed they were working on over a year ago.
  • Beardimus
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    Pyatra wrote: »
    I have done extensive testing on the PTS to determine the viability for the new Crystal Frags as a spammable. With a heavy heart I must inform you that this is probably a "no go", unless you are super hard up for a skill slot on your front bar (run Medusa, you'll lose less DPS than choosing C.Frags to open a skill slot). Sustain is a small amount better than Elemental weapon but damage is a 3.5-5k DPS loss depending on rotation.

    This assumes that you are using C.Frag proc when it comes up for both spammables. I even slotted Bound Armor on front bar for additional Magicka and the 2% spell damage bonus when running C.Frags a a spammable. but it still fell woefully short. Due to the nature of Elemental Weapon, its passives, and the status effects it causes, it is the clear winner. Due to them both being direct Magicka damage abilities there are no buffs I can work out that would affect one more than the other to give Crystal Frag the lead.

    Attributing factors in actual combat scenario:
    Cast time of Frags - small loss, in some cases evens out with Elemental Weapon without passives (Depends on weaving proficiency).
    Elemental Weapon passive Spell orb - pulls the dps ahead even more.

    Dummy Punching:
    Cast time of Frags - same as above
    Spell Orb passive for E.Wep - same as above
    Concussion, Chill, and burning additional uptime. - minimal DPS increase... but it's still an increase.


    Other Considerations:
    When you block with E.Wep on your bar you get a free shield.

    Potential Solutions:
    I don't care. Let ZOS figure it out. Maybe this is a "For PVP" change? It definitely doesn't seem to be for PVE. It seems that nothing changes from Meta (for non vamps), so at least no one should be upset or up in arms about it because it equates to non-change changes and ultimately for PVE it can be ignored whether the magicka morph changes go through or not. I would like the PVPers take on this as it may have a specific purpose for PVP.

    Can you sunmerise the change? I'm a PvPer and whilst Frag is woeful compared to its old self with the stun, it's important part of burst.
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  • MashmalloMan
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    Pyatra wrote: »
    I have done extensive testing on the PTS to determine the viability for the new Crystal Frags as a spammable. With a heavy heart I must inform you that this is probably a "no go", unless you are super hard up for a skill slot on your front bar (run Medusa, you'll lose less DPS than choosing C.Frags to open a skill slot). Sustain is a small amount better than Elemental weapon but damage is a 3.5-5k DPS loss depending on rotation.

    This assumes that you are using C.Frag proc when it comes up for both spammables. I even slotted Bound Armor on front bar for additional Magicka and the 2% spell damage bonus when running C.Frags a a spammable. but it still fell woefully short. Due to the nature of Elemental Weapon, its passives, and the status effects it causes, it is the clear winner. Due to them both being direct Magicka damage abilities there are no buffs I can work out that would affect one more than the other to give Crystal Frag the lead.

    Attributing factors in actual combat scenario:
    Cast time of Frags - small loss, in some cases evens out with Elemental Weapon without passives (Depends on weaving proficiency).
    Elemental Weapon passive Spell orb - pulls the dps ahead even more.

    Dummy Punching:
    Cast time of Frags - same as above
    Spell Orb passive for E.Wep - same as above
    Concussion, Chill, and burning additional uptime. - minimal DPS increase... but it's still an increase.


    Other Considerations:
    When you block with E.Wep on your bar you get a free shield.

    Potential Solutions:
    I don't care. Let ZOS figure it out. Maybe this is a "For PVP" change? It definitely doesn't seem to be for PVE. It seems that nothing changes from Meta (for non vamps), so at least no one should be upset or up in arms about it because it equates to non-change changes and ultimately for PVE it can be ignored whether the magicka morph changes go through or not. I would like the PVPers take on this as it may have a specific purpose for PVP.

    Can you sunmerise the change? I'm a PvPer and whilst Frag is woeful compared to its old self with the stun, it's important part of burst.

    For pvp.. probably no change for you since cast time + minimum travel time = a very crappy pvp spammable.. along with the fact that you can interupt the cast time making it somewhat of a death sentence to Crushing Shock users. The changes are mainly focussed on making the skill have a multi purpose function for the same old burst skill we know and love in pve content.

    Base:
    • Lowered cast time and damage slighty to make it easier to weave within 1 gcd.
    • Base skill now gives -10% cost to the next non ultimate skill used.
    • Base skill can proc the instant cast frag.
    • Can save a skill slot because you no longer need to use a dedicated spammable if hard casting this skill.

    Instant Frag Proc:
    • It's almost identical to live so anyone who wants to continue using it as an occasional burst skill can if you don't like cast time spammables. The damage was decreased by about 1% give or take when comparing the instant proc from live to pts.

    It seems to be about 4-5% pve dps loss by running this skill as a spammable. Which as others mentioned is because there is no relevent passive that brings the damage of using this skill beyond that of Crushing Shock/FP or Ele Weapon which all have additional benefits through Status Procs, AOE, Direct Damage and weapon passives.

    Where this skill shines is utility. It can save you 1 skill slot, increased sustain and offers self healing without the need to use something like Crit Surge. A lot of people will find use from this, especially double pet sorcs and people who maybe want to run more utility skills like shields, surge or slotting inner light to save money on Major Prophecy. Healers who want to dish out some damage occasionaly while also providing high Minor Crit uptime. There is a ton of very nice use case scenarios beyond "dps isn't better so it's worthless.".

    The only fix I'd want for it is something like the Dark Magic passive to deal 10% of your health as damage along with the 10% health return and it would easily be on par with everything else in the game... at least for parse dps. Some people will never like cast times so that's up for debate, the fact that you can interupt it also makes it very risky to use and warrants the skill dealing more dps than typical spammables.
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  • Wandering_Immigrant
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    Based on the numbers in this thread I think the DPS loss is an acceptable trade-off for getting to use frags as an all-in-one spamable and high burst ability. Frags proc is one of the hardest hitting single target abilities in the game, it can't also be on par with the best 2 mag spamables, that would be ridiculously OP.

    I could see myself going this route on my pet sorc when soloing or healing, she's always begging me for more bar space, and I'm like that's not my job honey you gotta talk to the devs. Well I guess they heard her.

    My no pet sorc though, he would never. He doesn't need the bar space and even if he did he has a spamable that interrupts so he's gonna ride that puppy out till the day he dies no matter what else they try to offer him. The beauty of it though is, it's not something I have to slot to get the benefit from, it's already slotted, comes with frags, so if I want to hard cast frags occasionally to activate my dark magic passives and get the new sustain perk, I can, and bonus, it might proc real frags.
  • Lord-Otto
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    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?
  • Celestro
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?

    Crystal Fragments/Crystal Blast was always the magsorc spammable. Of course it was garbage but they still had one.
  • Lord-Otto
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    Celestro wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?

    Crystal Fragments/Crystal Blast was always the magsorc spammable. Of course it was garbage but they still had one.

    Cast time was too long for a spammable.
  • MashmalloMan
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Celestro wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?

    Crystal Fragments/Crystal Blast was always the magsorc spammable. Of course it was garbage but they still had one.

    Cast time was too long for a spammable.

    Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.

    Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.

    This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on August 22, 2020 11:30PM
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  • Lord-Otto
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Celestro wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?

    Crystal Fragments/Crystal Blast was always the magsorc spammable. Of course it was garbage but they still had one.

    Cast time was too long for a spammable.

    Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.

    Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.

    This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.

    No, it was never intended as a spammable. It would have proc'ed itself if it was. Just as it does now. Crystal Blast's AoE was meant as an add clear. Much like Snipe is supposed to be a a debuff or burst from very far away and Dark Flare much alike. Frags were clearly designed to be the single-target morph and be used alongside a real spammable.
    The initial design philosophy was to create classes with one aspect missing. It's an execute for DKs, it used to be a burst heal for NBs. If sorcs had had a spammable all along, what are they missing? It's only recently that ZOS are changing core design philosophy.
  • Celestro
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Celestro wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?

    Crystal Fragments/Crystal Blast was always the magsorc spammable. Of course it was garbage but they still had one.

    Cast time was too long for a spammable.

    Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.

    Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.

    This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.

    No, it was never intended as a spammable. It would have proc'ed itself if it was. Just as it does now. Crystal Blast's AoE was meant as an add clear. Much like Snipe is supposed to be a a debuff or burst from very far away and Dark Flare much alike. Frags were clearly designed to be the single-target morph and be used alongside a real spammable.
    The initial design philosophy was to create classes with one aspect missing. It's an execute for DKs, it used to be a burst heal for NBs. If sorcs had had a spammable all along, what are they missing? It's only recently that ZOS are changing core design philosophy.

    So Crystal Shard went from being essentially a spammable since it didn't have any of its morph qualities to being something else altogether when switching to its morphs? How does that work.

    Overall there is such a thing as a badly designed skill mind you and there are a number of them still around. It is better now than it was but not a lot changed about it. So to say it wasn't a spammable before but now it is doesn't make sense honestly.
    Edited by Celestro on August 23, 2020 8:59PM
  • MashmalloMan
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Celestro wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?

    Crystal Fragments/Crystal Blast was always the magsorc spammable. Of course it was garbage but they still had one.

    Cast time was too long for a spammable.

    Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.

    Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.

    This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.

    No, it was never intended as a spammable. It would have proc'ed itself if it was. Just as it does now. Crystal Blast's AoE was meant as an add clear. Much like Snipe is supposed to be a a debuff or burst from very far away and Dark Flare much alike. Frags were clearly designed to be the single-target morph and be used alongside a real spammable.
    The initial design philosophy was to create classes with one aspect missing. It's an execute for DKs, it used to be a burst heal for NBs. If sorcs had had a spammable all along, what are they missing? It's only recently that ZOS are changing core design philosophy.

    Honestly I don't disagree with you, I never thought of it as a spammble before and I agree with the idea that every class has their obvious downsides as you listed, but the other comments are right, it's not a coincidence that the damage and cast time ends up the same as Snipe and players seem to use that very well as a spammable in pve, it's not just used as a far ranged debuff or burst skill like you stated. It's the best bow/bow spammable available currently. Not a single class spammable outdoes what Snipe can do and it's because of the weapon passives related to it.

    So looking back at the frags before the reduction in damage, cast time and quality of life change to proc itself this patch, it could of technically been used as a spammable all along, even if poorly designed, we really don't know how ZOS conisdered the skill internally and judging by some of their awful logic, I wouldn't be surprised that they did in fact think of it as Sorc's spammable. 1 thing remains clear, despite the obvious shift to being classified as a spammable this patch, most class spammables suck because they have nothing boosting their damage beyond what weapon spammables are capable of.

    My point still stands, the original cast time of 1s did not mean it couldn't be considered a spammable. The fact that it was garbage to use and didn't proc itself did prevent it from being competitive. In a meta that heavily relies on light attack weaving, a longer cast time spammable can only be justified by increasing its damage to compensate for less light attacks and more risk involved like it does with jabs/sweeps, snipe and even wrecking blow, all of which outclass other instant options available.

    But to your original point, yeah maybe DK's deserve an execute now if Sorcs now have everything but a traditional dot covered. I personally don't want them to take that route because it's kinda boring for class identity. It's nice to have some classes be great for front loaded dps (Sorc, Amplitude Passive, Tormentor), back loaded execute dps (NB/Templar/Necro) or more of a middle ground (DK/Warden). I'd much rather prefer ZOS to offer magicka universal executes in the destruction staff skill morphs like Pulsar (parallels DW Whirling Blades) and/or Destructive Reach (parallels Bow Poison Injection) so people at least have the option.

    ZOS can delete Endless Fury for all I care, crappy design, low damage, only great for kill stealing in pvp, sucks for pve dps.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on August 23, 2020 10:10PM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    I had actually hoped that ZOS would recycle one of the Endless Fury morphs into their Sorcerer spammable.

    I would love to do more actual Lightning damage as a Sorc rather than being funneled into generic Magic damage.
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Celestro wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    The real question is:
    Now that sorcs, who were designed to not have a spammable, got a spammable - can DKs get an execution now?

    Crystal Fragments/Crystal Blast was always the magsorc spammable. Of course it was garbage but they still had one.

    Cast time was too long for a spammable.

    Not really true.. Cast time and damage was equal to that of Snipe and Dark Flare as others mentioned. Just because it sucked (longer cast time making it hard to weave, no relevant damage passives) and Sorcs didn't want to use it, doesn't mean ZOS didn't think it was a spammable internally.

    Bow/bow users use Snipe as a spammable over Birds, Skulls and Crushing Weapon all the time, but it's mostly because the bow passives help it out class them entirely in terms of dps. You have +25% dmg for bow skills and +12% dmg depending on range. Since it's a class skill it has nothing that helps it as much as Snipe does for bow/bow users despite starting at the same damage/range/cast time.

    This issue is still present on this version of Crystal Weapon/Shard and it's why weapon spammables out dps them and it's something ZOS should look to correct in regards to ALL class spammables.

    No, it was never intended as a spammable. It would have proc'ed itself if it was. Just as it does now. Crystal Blast's AoE was meant as an add clear. Much like Snipe is supposed to be a a debuff or burst from very far away and Dark Flare much alike. Frags were clearly designed to be the single-target morph and be used alongside a real spammable.
    The initial design philosophy was to create classes with one aspect missing. It's an execute for DKs, it used to be a burst heal for NBs. If sorcs had had a spammable all along, what are they missing? It's only recently that ZOS are changing core design philosophy.

    Honestly I don't disagree with you, I never thought of it as a spammble before and I agree with the idea that every class has their obvious downsides as you listed, but the other comments are right, it's not a coincidence that the damage and cast time ends up the same as Snipe and players seem to use that very well as a spammable in pve, it's not just used as a far ranged debuff or burst skill like you stated. It's the best bow/bow spammable available currently. Not a single class spammable outdoes what Snipe can do and it's because of the weapon passives related to it.

    So looking back at the frags before the reduction in damage, cast time and quality of life change to proc itself this patch, it could of technically been used as a spammable all along, even if poorly designed, we really don't know how ZOS conisdered the skill internally and judging by some of their awful logic, I wouldn't be surprised that they did in fact think of it as Sorc's spammable. 1 thing remains clear, despite the obvious shift to being classified as a spammable this patch, most class spammables suck because they have nothing boosting their damage beyond what weapon spammables are capable of.

    My point still stands, the original cast time of 1s did not mean it couldn't be considered a spammable. The fact that it was garbage to use and didn't proc itself did prevent it from being competitive. In a meta that heavily relies on light attack weaving, a longer cast time spammable can only be justified by increasing its damage to compensate for less light attacks and more risk involved like it does with jabs/sweeps, snipe and even wrecking blow, all of which outclass other instant options available.

    But to your original point, yeah maybe DK's deserve an execute now if Sorcs now have everything but a traditional dot covered. I personally don't want them to take that route because it's kinda boring for class identity. It's nice to have some classes be great for front loaded dps (Sorc, Amplitude Passive, Tormentor), back loaded execute dps (NB/Templar/Necro) or more of a middle ground (DK/Warden). I'd much rather prefer ZOS to offer magicka universal executes in the destruction staff skill morphs like Pulsar (parallels DW Whirling Blades) and/or Destructive Reach (parallels Bow Poison Injection) so people at least have the option.

    ZOS can delete Endless Fury for all I care, crappy design, low damage, only great for kill stealing in pvp, sucks for pve dps.

    Well, admittedly, if it sucks, it doesn't exist in my book. Reason why I don't consider sorcs to be healers or tanks. Encase might give Vitality, but it's garbage. As for DKs, Igneous or Molten Weapon used to give a damage buff. Still never considered it a true execute.
    And I agree, Fury is more infuriating than anything else. Zergling skill, purgable, low damage, it's awful.
  • Joxer61
    Joxer61
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    I had actually hoped that ZOS would recycle one of the Endless Fury morphs into their Sorcerer spammable.

    I would love to do more actual Lightning damage as a Sorc rather than being funneled into generic Magic damage.

    agreed...that should have been the stam switch.
  • MephistoTrix
    MephistoTrix
    Soul Shriven
    I thought we were talking about crystal frag here not the useless spammable. Did I miss the crystal frag changes results somewhere?
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    Pyatra wrote: »
    I have done extensive testing on the PTS to determine the viability for the new Crystal Frags as a spammable. With a heavy heart I must inform you that this is probably a "no go", unless you are super hard up for a skill slot on your front bar (run Medusa, you'll lose less DPS than choosing C.Frags to open a skill slot). Sustain is a small amount better than Elemental weapon but damage is a 3.5-5k DPS loss depending on rotation.

    This assumes that you are using C.Frag proc when it comes up for both spammables. I even slotted Bound Armor on front bar for additional Magicka and the 2% spell damage bonus when running C.Frags a a spammable. but it still fell woefully short. Due to the nature of Elemental Weapon, its passives, and the status effects it causes, it is the clear winner. Due to them both being direct Magicka damage abilities there are no buffs I can work out that would affect one more than the other to give Crystal Frag the lead.

    Attributing factors in actual combat scenario:
    Cast time of Frags - small loss, in some cases evens out with Elemental Weapon without passives (Depends on weaving proficiency).
    Elemental Weapon passive Spell orb - pulls the dps ahead even more.

    Dummy Punching:
    Cast time of Frags - same as above
    Spell Orb passive for E.Wep - same as above
    Concussion, Chill, and burning additional uptime. - minimal DPS increase... but it's still an increase.


    Other Considerations:
    When you block with E.Wep on your bar you get a free shield.

    Potential Solutions:
    I don't care. Let ZOS figure it out. Maybe this is a "For PVP" change? It definitely doesn't seem to be for PVE. It seems that nothing changes from Meta (for non vamps), so at least no one should be upset or up in arms about it because it equates to non-change changes and ultimately for PVE it can be ignored whether the magicka morph changes go through or not. I would like the PVPers take on this as it may have a specific purpose for PVP.

    Can you sunmerise the change? I'm a PvPer and whilst Frag is woeful compared to its old self with the stun, it's important part of burst.

    For pvp.. probably no change for you since cast time + minimum travel time = a very crappy pvp spammable.. along with the fact that you can interupt the cast time making it somewhat of a death sentence to Crushing Shock users. The changes are mainly focussed on making the skill have a multi purpose function for the same old burst skill we know and love in pve content.

    Base:
    • Lowered cast time and damage slighty to make it easier to weave within 1 gcd.
    • Base skill now gives -10% cost to the next non ultimate skill used.
    • Base skill can proc the instant cast frag.
    • Can save a skill slot because you no longer need to use a dedicated spammable if hard casting this skill.

    Instant Frag Proc:
    • It's almost identical to live so anyone who wants to continue using it as an occasional burst skill can if you don't like cast time spammables. The damage was decreased by about 1% give or take when comparing the instant proc from live to pts.

    It seems to be about 4-5% pve dps loss by running this skill as a spammable. Which as others mentioned is because there is no relevent passive that brings the damage of using this skill beyond that of Crushing Shock/FP or Ele Weapon which all have additional benefits through Status Procs, AOE, Direct Damage and weapon passives.

    Where this skill shines is utility. It can save you 1 skill slot, increased sustain and offers self healing without the need to use something like Crit Surge. A lot of people will find use from this, especially double pet sorcs and people who maybe want to run more utility skills like shields, surge or slotting inner light to save money on Major Prophecy. Healers who want to dish out some damage occasionaly while also providing high Minor Crit uptime. There is a ton of very nice use case scenarios beyond "dps isn't better so it's worthless.".

    The only fix I'd want for it is something like the Dark Magic passive to deal 10% of your health as damage along with the 10% health return and it would easily be on par with everything else in the game... at least for parse dps. Some people will never like cast times so that's up for debate, the fact that you can interupt it also makes it very risky to use and warrants the skill dealing more dps than typical spammables.

    @MashmalloMan thanks very much, about the best summary I could have asked for!!

    Wowzers if that's their intention, seems a stretch to want to use that in PvE. As you say PvP I'm only ever using the Frag proc itself.

    Thus I was worried the damage seemed to take a strong nerf it was like -20% off base so good if they Frag proc remains strong.

    Looks like a slight sustain increase but two queries specific to Frag Proc users only then

    - can the Frag proc make another proc?
    - does the Frag proc give the 10% next skill reduction?

    You are right on space saving which is very personal if you can run something else happy days just hard to see it from a PvP perspective. I'd prefer the CC back then I could save a CC slot but know ZOS will never do that :(
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders

    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach
  • AdamBourke
    AdamBourke
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    I liked this ability until they changed it to stamina (I don't know why they couldn't have just made the stamina version into a third morph...)

    For a solo build, I found it was nice to use against pretty much an enemy, but particularly mobs. I miss it, and actually had to really change my playstyle to counter losing this abilty. I actually have barely seen anyone using it since this change...

    (Disclosure: I'm not a hardcore player, I just always played with frags since launch and it's now weird not to be able to).
    PS4 - EU

    Please put the Eyevea/EarthForge wayshrines back on the map?
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