FrancisCrawford wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

There are definitely troll groups out there who do this - they wait until the last boss then kick you just to be a ____. I've even had them kick me after the last boss was dead and the dungeon was over just to be annoying. It's also why I think friends who queue up together should only count as one vote toward kicking someone. Currently it's too easy for a group of friends to abuse the kick function and torment the one pug player in the group with the way it is now.

The best you can do is just report them and hope ZoS does something about it.

Groups who kick after last boss usually do random dungeons, they kick you so they can queue for the next dungeon. I have been in some groups, I personaly asl people to leave, but some can't even read english, so we end up kicking these guys.

I didn't know this.

Is this for the high-level daily random reward, or the lesser repeater one?

And why would a kick be necessary?

Because they wouldn't want to wait for that person to leave naturally. If they're running several dungeons for either levels, pledges, quests, or whatever reason it is, they probably don't want to wait several minutes or gods know how long for that person to leave on their own. The kick isn't personal.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

“ Magsorcs are the most preferred dps in any content, I won’t deny that.

They're definitely not. As a magsorc main, they're...mostly unheard of in endgame. It's magcros, magblades, magdks. There are no classes that are being universally kicked in pve content. Trust me. This is what is most likely:

1) Trolls
2) Your health is low
3) Your level/cp is low?
4) Low dps
5) Pulling mobs or running ahead of tank
6) Trolls
7) Trolls?

I'm not saying this to be mean or elitist. But you're not gonna get kicked in a pug because of your class. I've been kicked from groups because I lacked knowledge of the mechanics, died too frequently, and my dps was low. Those are the only reasons. They never saw me and were like, "Ooh! A magsorc, kick it!!"

I haven't seen anyone kicked for their class in a long time either. So I also doubt that's the reason. Though that did use to be a common thing so this community isn't above that kind of thing. I remember back in the old days when signing up as a healer as anything other than Templar spamming shards and repentance was likely to get you an automatic kick.

What might would settle this in a hurry would be for the OP to just share some insights about their character and how he or she plays. Then others could determine if there actually was some gaping flaw in their play style that would justify these kicks and could then help them improve with advice - or if they are just being picked on by empathy-challenged players.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zurica wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

My personal experience will always contradict another person’s personal experience with vet pugs.

I’ve proposed the idea to ZOS, to look at dungeon logs and see which classes and play styles are getting kicked the most. If there’s 20,000 Banished cells 2 dungeon logs and 7,000 instances of someone getting kicked in that 20,000. It can’t be the same “bad” player getting kicked 7,000 times. And it cannot be 7,000 dps getting kicked, there’s some tanks not running taunt or healers not running purge in there also.

That Fungal boss with the debuff, requires the healer to purge. It’s not a case of “you need 100k dps”.

Like @universal_wrath said not all Tanks run a taunt and not all Healers use purge but purge isn't always necessary. Regardless, vote to kick isn't limited to just DDs. The same rules apply to everyone - if someone isnt pulling their weight then odds are they'll be kicked. I see the problem though, it seems like you don't fully understand how the mechanics work if you really think Purge is necessary. Templars typically will have a Purify Synergy on the ground that you can use - it requires you to actually pick it up though, overall Healers don't need to use purge in Banished Cells II, just go to the corresponding mechanic (rune on the ground) to cleanse the debuff after you get bubbled and speaking of getting bubbled, if the Tank gets bubbled he / she will lose taunt on all the Daedroths and will have to grab aggro again so if that happens it doesn't mean they're not running a taunt - also a good healer will have no problem healing through the mess until the Tank regains aggro, the longer it takes DPS to kill the boss the more Dagroths will spawn and if the Feasts are not being killed before they reach the boss they will heal him. So if you're overrun with 10 Daedroths and the boss still isn't dead then DPS is typically the problem and that's usually when someone gets kicked or leaves the group.

Wait. The red/blue debuff in BC2 is purgeable? I always assumed it wasn't, and never have tried to purge it.

I didn't know you could cleanse it either and I have a hard time believing I could have missed that considering how many times I've done that fight as a healer laying down rituals. I'm going to have to do that fight again and test that - because I'm going to feel like a real idiot if you can actually cleanse it. lol

geonsocal wrote: »

here's something a little wierd...

when I first started running dungeons with a buddy of mine, I remember him commenting on my appearance - I like to dress casual at times...

he didn't really understand at the time that it was only a costume...

I'm pretty sure he's not the only one whom thought that way...

now when I go in to tank or heal - I make sure to outfit myself appropriately, just so there's no confusion I'm there to do the job...

This reminds me of a time when I saw a tank get kicked because the rest of the group thought he was tanking in cloth armor when in fact he was just wearing a costume.

mairwen85 wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Can´t be sure it´s the case here. It happens, that they have a friend waiting - a friend in need of a monster set not eager to run the dungeon and as so use op as a travel mate to last boss and kiick him and then inv their friend.

Every time?

No that´s for sure

ThePianist wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

No body vote to kick someone because they don't like a specific class. People vote to kick when you don't do enough dps to kill bosses, when you don't know mechaincs or when run ahead of the group and just pull every mobs around and you are not even a tank.

I have been in many groups that could not kill the second boss of fungul grotto because they keep dying from the shadow mechanic. I have seen people bypass mobs in different dungeons to skip because they don't loke to waste time kill mobs, everyone ends up dying before the reach the boss. You have new players in group and you want to explain mechanivs to them, just for an entilted brat to agro bosses over and over and over then complain that other don't kbow mechanics and everyone is trash.

My personal experience will always contradict another person’s personal experience with vet pugs.

I’ve proposed the idea to ZOS, to look at dungeon logs and see which classes and play styles are getting kicked the most. If there’s 20,000 Banished cells 2 dungeon logs and 7,000 instances of someone getting kicked in that 20,000. It can’t be the same “bad” player getting kicked 7,000 times. And it cannot be 7,000 dps getting kicked, there’s some tanks not running taunt or healers not running purge in there also.

That Fungal boss with the debuff, requires the healer to purge. It’s not a case of “you need 100k dps”.

That’s the dna and receipts I want to look at. From there on, we can determine which classes needs buffs for pve.

What’s wrong with making vet content viable for pug players? At least once a day I’m helping a low cp player do vet content. I actually just recently took a screenshot of me doing Vet ROM with a couple of low 300’s. It took longer than I expected but I was proud of helping them and not be part of the ESO-Turning-into-WoW-Pve-toxicity.

healers do not have to run purge in dungeons
In fact i know of no base game dungeon, that requires purge at all. Not in fungal, not in banished cells. As a dps i would rather have the healer slot lightning wall instead of a useless purge.

It used to be a dps check, a rly easy dps check. easy enough for a healer and a tank to check it without a dps. and now its even easier cos they nerfed base game dungeons to ***, many figths that mechanic doesnt spawn at all.

And to the topic of kicks. you seem to be the overlapping factor with that many kicks.
I usually dont even get kicked when i level undaunted at stam chars, and im really bad at stam chars. (~20k dps bad).

And your approach of coming here and whine, talking about toxic elitists, is pretty toxic too

laksikus wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

No body vote to kick someone because they don't like a specific class. People vote to kick when you don't do enough dps to kill bosses, when you don't know mechaincs or when run ahead of the group and just pull every mobs around and you are not even a tank.

I have been in many groups that could not kill the second boss of fungul grotto because they keep dying from the shadow mechanic. I have seen people bypass mobs in different dungeons to skip because they don't loke to waste time kill mobs, everyone ends up dying before the reach the boss. You have new players in group and you want to explain mechanivs to them, just for an entilted brat to agro bosses over and over and over then complain that other don't kbow mechanics and everyone is trash.

My personal experience will always contradict another person’s personal experience with vet pugs.

I’ve proposed the idea to ZOS, to look at dungeon logs and see which classes and play styles are getting kicked the most. If there’s 20,000 Banished cells 2 dungeon logs and 7,000 instances of someone getting kicked in that 20,000. It can’t be the same “bad” player getting kicked 7,000 times. And it cannot be 7,000 dps getting kicked, there’s some tanks not running taunt or healers not running purge in there also.

That Fungal boss with the debuff, requires the healer to purge. It’s not a case of “you need 100k dps”.

That’s the dna and receipts I want to look at. From there on, we can determine which classes needs buffs for pve.

What’s wrong with making vet content viable for pug players? At least once a day I’m helping a low cp player do vet content. I actually just recently took a screenshot of me doing Vet ROM with a couple of low 300’s. It took longer than I expected but I was proud of helping them and not be part of the ESO-Turning-into-WoW-Pve-toxicity.

healers do not have to run purge in dungeons
In fact i know of no base game dungeon, that requires purge at all. Not in fungal, not in banished cells. As a dps i would rather have the healer slot lightning wall instead of a useless purge.

It used to be a dps check, a rly easy dps check. easy enough for a healer and a tank to check it without a dps. and now its even easier cos they nerfed base game dungeons to ***, many figths that mechanic doesnt spawn at all.

And to the topic of kicks. you seem to be the overlapping factor with that many kicks.
I usually dont even get kicked when i level undaunted at stam chars, and im really bad at stam chars. (~20k dps bad).

And your approach of coming here and whine, talking about toxic elitists, is pretty toxic too

Sameeee. I can get 60k+ on my mag characters...stam...low level stam, max level stam...like 20k I'm so bad. I still don't get kicked in pugs.

Jeremy wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zurica wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

My personal experience will always contradict another person’s personal experience with vet pugs.

I’ve proposed the idea to ZOS, to look at dungeon logs and see which classes and play styles are getting kicked the most. If there’s 20,000 Banished cells 2 dungeon logs and 7,000 instances of someone getting kicked in that 20,000. It can’t be the same “bad” player getting kicked 7,000 times. And it cannot be 7,000 dps getting kicked, there’s some tanks not running taunt or healers not running purge in there also.

That Fungal boss with the debuff, requires the healer to purge. It’s not a case of “you need 100k dps”.

Like @universal_wrath said not all Tanks run a taunt and not all Healers use purge but purge isn't always necessary. Regardless, vote to kick isn't limited to just DDs. The same rules apply to everyone - if someone isnt pulling their weight then odds are they'll be kicked. I see the problem though, it seems like you don't fully understand how the mechanics work if you really think Purge is necessary. Templars typically will have a Purify Synergy on the ground that you can use - it requires you to actually pick it up though, overall Healers don't need to use purge in Banished Cells II, just go to the corresponding mechanic (rune on the ground) to cleanse the debuff after you get bubbled and speaking of getting bubbled, if the Tank gets bubbled he / she will lose taunt on all the Daedroths and will have to grab aggro again so if that happens it doesn't mean they're not running a taunt - also a good healer will have no problem healing through the mess until the Tank regains aggro, the longer it takes DPS to kill the boss the more Dagroths will spawn and if the Feasts are not being killed before they reach the boss they will heal him. So if you're overrun with 10 Daedroths and the boss still isn't dead then DPS is typically the problem and that's usually when someone gets kicked or leaves the group.

Wait. The red/blue debuff in BC2 is purgeable? I always assumed it wasn't, and never have tried to purge it.

I didn't know you could cleanse it either and I have a hard time believing I could have missed that considering how many times I've done that fight as a healer laying down rituals. I'm going to have to do that fight again and test that - because I'm going to feel like a real idiot if you can actually cleanse it. lol

I back bar Efficient purge, Barrier and Venom arrow in all my dps toons.

The purge skill on the support skill line works perfectly fine, no bugs, instant cast removal.

Bashing at melee range isn’t the only way to interrupt a boss mechanic. Venom arrow is more effective if the tank is not paying attention.

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

So, if I'm understanding this, you're ALWAYS being kicked?

Something about that doesn't add up to me. If you pull your own weight, do your role for the dungeon as you ideally should, and don't cause any repetitive, unnecessary problems, and are getting kicked. I don't know what to tell you.

However, as someone else had suggested. If this happens in EVERY group, there's too many minor details in between for us to give a fully accurate answer, but I would personally wonder; with no offense intended if you are the cause of any of those votekicks. For example; being rude to your team, forcing them to wipe repeatedly, standing in red, ETC.

Not insinuating that you are the cause, but by the information given it also seems like it could potentially be an aisle to explore.

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

here's something a little wierd...

when I first started running dungeons with a buddy of mine, I remember him commenting on my appearance - I like to dress casual at times...

he didn't really understand at the time that it was only a costume...

I'm pretty sure he's not the only one whom thought that way...

now when I go in to tank or heal - I make sure to outfit myself appropriately, just so there's no confusion I'm there to do the job...

This reminds me of a time when I saw a tank get kicked because the rest of the group thought he was tanking in cloth armor when in fact he was just wearing a costume.

Are people that dense?

Early on with the actual GF, vs what the game launched with, I queued for a normal dungeon on a character in the mid-40s. I was just leveling the toon. Back then the "leader" of a GF group could kick anyone they wanted to and there was no vote. As soon as the queue popped the "leader" chose to kick a player in their 20s then kicked me. The idiot said dungeons were not for leveling. Considering I never saw the player on any leaderboards and none of my raid guilds ever heard of them it seems they were just an ignorant fool finally experiencing some fleeting power.

The saying goes “The true measure of a man, is what he does with power”. Give a boy the power to kick and he will kick everybody.

Healers were the most toxic from my experience, from a tank perspective. Healers T-bagging people in vet trials, okay I get it. I’m working on a compilation video showing that the Healer-Tank abusive relationship exists. This is also the reason why sometimes you can’t find tanks anywhere, chat, guild, gf...

Wyrd88 wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

I back bar Efficient purge, Barrier and Venom arrow in all my dps toons.

Well, here's your awnser dude. At that point I can say that you're have no idea how to deal damage properly, or what dps should do, or should not.

Btw, btw what else all your dps toons are running? Siege Shield?

Can you be a little bit more articulate in what you are trying to say. As I’ve stated in the past post, I’ve finished all vet content. End game elitist community mindset needs to stop, this is not world of warcraft.

If players claim they’ve played since Launch and can’t carry low 300’s in a vet content like unhallowed grave, kick option is the only scapegoat to blame for their own lack of knowledge. Its unacceptable behavior.

To be honest there is a lot of really bad opinions on these forums, and a whole lot of ignorance (and lets be clear here that is not an attack, its a word we use in the english language to describe people who don't know what they are talking about).Iv seen a few times people mentioning "voting". Voting Is not by any means a way of finding out what a good/solid position on a topic is. This is especially the case when pooling peoples opinions about things like aspects of game development.

A great example of this would be saying that the trading system we have now is good, because people voted on it. That does not mean its good, and it for sure does not mean it cannot be better. When we look at the current culture around trading systems for example, we see players conducting themselves in a manner that is really not good for the game on both a social, and economic level. Players are actually preventing trade because they are greedy for the 10% tax that is in place on the trading system.

However, There is by far superior ways to deal with this problem and enabling the economic viscosity of the game to be better higher. The solution is to create a system for the game for income to be taxed on all activities instead of just trading. For example, if you sold/vendor items of 100g, 10g would go to the bank. This would remove the need for mandatory groups, tax systems, dues, trade rates etc and shift the interaction of people back into a healthy position.

In its current culture, trade guilds are actually hurting their own income by limiting wts/wtb concepts to not be allowed in guild chat. Why? because when people trade the money shifts around. Some people are stingy with their gold, others are not. You may see a multi-millionaire not donate a dime, but a person with 100k gold donate 10% of his wealth. Additionally, when guilds limit trade in this way they are significantly viscosity of wealth in a guild which results in consolidation of it effectively causing the guilds trade to rest purely on the hands of few people. I have witnessed this for months now.

I mention trade because it is one of the key aspects of the game that is having issues, Similar to that of grouping in dungeons. As for group voting, there is a similar problem with culture. A few days ago i was in a dungeon and i was pulling 65% Of the damage of the vet group. I was removed for "low damage" after i trolled a little and stopped dps and ask them why things were not dying to prove that i was carrying the damage. Mind you, they kicked me on the last boss a very malicious act.

The point here is that the group vote system is problematic, Like that of voting to validate things in the trade aspects of eso.
The key and most important take away from this is Voting is not a good system in the hands of the masses, and ignorant . Voting should be left to the extremely wise, knowledgeable in their absence (and not the other way around), and never, ever in the hands of the masses for any reason.


In game developer we have developers dedicated specifically to finding out feedback about a game (they are called ux designers). These designers employ a large amount of research and various research methods to find out opinions. The process is actually very well executed.

As for the mechanic of voting people to be kicked, it really should be replaced with an automated afk feature that if they do not deal x amount of damage/healing with in 3 minutes they should be removed (or a vote kick should be enabled at that point) from the dungeon/battleground. This will remove the abuse but still resolve the issue that gives reason to the group voting system to exist in the game.

ThePianist wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Wyrd88 wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

I back bar Efficient purge, Barrier and Venom arrow in all my dps toons.

Well, here's your awnser dude. At that point I can say that you're have no idea how to deal damage properly, or what dps should do, or should not.

Btw, btw what else all your dps toons are running? Siege Shield?

Can you be a little bit more articulate in what you are trying to say. As I’ve stated in the past post, I’ve finished all vet content. End game elitist community mindset needs to stop, this is not world of warcraft.

If players claim they’ve played since Launch and can’t carry low 300’s in a vet content like unhallowed grave, kick option is the only scapegoat to blame for their own lack of knowledge. Its unacceptable behavior.

The point is that nobody should need to carry. You complain about those that can't carry, but put no blame on those that are wanting to be carried. A bit backwards, don't you think?

What’s wrong with helping people?

I think you and I have a different idea on what a "carry" is. I help people all the time. I run a guild and am an officer in another. I assist people with gear, dps rotations, xp grind, earning gold and many other aspects of the game. I even run dungeons with guildmates to help them learn.

What I do not do is bring my undergeared, underleveled, underskilled character into a veteran DLC dungeon, sit back and let others do all the work for me. That is what I consider a carry. If someone shows up well prepared, even if they have never done the content before, it's not a carry. It's a first timer willing to learn mechanics. If they aren't performing their role well enough to pull their own weight, that is a carry.

I will definitely take the time to teach people how to play the game to the best of their ability... outside of the queue with randoms. I don't consider it a good use of anyone's time to teach someone basic combat skills in a vet DLC queue. Those are skills they should have learned long before that time and it's rude of players to expect to somehow go from 5k dps to 30k dps within the confines of a single dungeon with random people they don't even know. That's disrespectful and a waste of the time of three other people.