Toxicity Data for Vote Kicking in Vet Content

ThePianist · August 13

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

TwinLamps · August 13

I guess you should report them if you think its done to grief you

Anony_Mouse · August 13

There must be something else going on... if you know how to play your class, pull your weight and don’t constantly cause the pug group to wipe, I don’t see why anyone would vote to kick you based purely on the class you play.

Are you friendly with the group in group chat? Do you say hi when you join? Do you rush through and pull all the mobs, or do you let the tank go first and get the aggro? There’s something you’ve not included.

No one is consistently kicked from pugs purely based on the class they play. No one.

Sarannah · August 13

Anony_Mouse wrote: »

There must be something else going on... if you know how to play your class, pull your weight and don’t constantly cause the pug group to wipe, I don’t see why anyone would vote to kick you based purely on the class you play.

Are you friendly with the group in group chat? Do you say hi when you join? Do you rush through and pull all the mobs, or do you let the tank go first and get the aggro? There’s something you’ve not included.

No one is consistently kicked from pugs purely based on the class they play. No one.

^^ This!

witchdoctor · August 13

Anony_Mouse wrote: »

No one is consistently kicked from pugs purely based on the class they play. No one.

Yeah. Something doesn't pass the pub test here.

If you meet one jerk today, you met a jerk; if all you meet today are jerks, you are probably the jerk.

(Not calling the OP a jerk).

ThePianist · August 13

Anony_Mouse wrote: »

There must be something else going on... if you know how to play your class, pull your weight and don’t constantly cause the pug group to wipe, I don’t see why anyone would vote to kick you based purely on the class you play.

Are you friendly with the group in group chat? Do you say hi when you join? Do you rush through and pull all the mobs, or do you let the tank go first and get the aggro? There’s something you’ve not included.

No one is consistently kicked from pugs purely based on the class they play. No one.

This is why we need to see a spreadsheet data. Game server data, dungeon logs, ect...

There were some cases where I just joined a dungeon and before I can even type “L4...” *kicked*, and this was in a normal daily dungeon.

It’s easy to theory craft and imagine things. But there’s unresolved issues that has been going on in the game for years. Vote Kicking is one of them, and people getting crown scammed is another.

I’m pretty sure ZOS understands this from a business perspective and potential loss of new assets. If I could get a refund on the vet dungeons and contents I can’t do, then I’d get a refund lol.

universal_wrath · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

No body vote to kick someone because they don't like a specific class. People vote to kick when you don't do enough dps to kill bosses, when you don't know mechaincs or when run ahead of the group and just pull every mobs around and you are not even a tank.

I have been in many groups that could not kill the second boss of fungul grotto because they keep dying from the shadow mechanic. I have seen people bypass mobs in different dungeons to skip because they don't loke to waste time kill mobs, everyone ends up dying before the reach the boss. You have new players in group and you want to explain mechanivs to them, just for an entilted brat to agro bosses over and over and over then complain that other don't kbow mechanics and everyone is trash.

Banana · August 13

Stick to music or play solo like I do.

Dovakhan · August 13

I've even done lots of Vet dungeons with a makeshift Vampire healer (Magblade, restoration staff skills only + energy orb) without any issues (heck, I even got praised once, and that having in mind that it's not a good healer build by far...it's my dedicated crafter in fact :P). So don't blame others when the blame is probably on you.

If you know how to play your build and stick to your role, then I doubt that you'd have any problems.

redspecter23 · August 13

If you're getting kicked on a regular basis, consider for a moment the common factor in all those kicks.

Perhaps there is more you can do to be a valuable team member, both within the dungeon and outside the dungeon before you enter. Are you geared properly for the content? Are you using appropriate skills to help the team succeed? Is your rotation solid? Is your dps too low? Are you bringing a poor attitude to the group?

These are all questions I'd ask myself if I were being kicked repeatedly. I wouldn't automatically jump to "no reason". I'd examine what the reasons are because if it's happening often, there is definitely a reason, even if you don't agree with it.

mairwen85 · August 13

You say kicks happen on all your characters on last boss? That's too much of a trend in many random groups for everyone else to be the problem.

ThePianist · August 13

universal_wrath wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

No body vote to kick someone because they don't like a specific class. People vote to kick when you don't do enough dps to kill bosses, when you don't know mechaincs or when run ahead of the group and just pull every mobs around and you are not even a tank.

I have been in many groups that could not kill the second boss of fungul grotto because they keep dying from the shadow mechanic. I have seen people bypass mobs in different dungeons to skip because they don't loke to waste time kill mobs, everyone ends up dying before the reach the boss. You have new players in group and you want to explain mechanivs to them, just for an entilted brat to agro bosses over and over and over then complain that other don't kbow mechanics and everyone is trash.

My personal experience will always contradict another person’s personal experience with vet pugs.

I’ve proposed the idea to ZOS, to look at dungeon logs and see which classes and play styles are getting kicked the most. If there’s 20,000 Banished cells 2 dungeon logs and 7,000 instances of someone getting kicked in that 20,000. It can’t be the same “bad” player getting kicked 7,000 times. And it cannot be 7,000 dps getting kicked, there’s some tanks not running taunt or healers not running purge in there also.

That Fungal boss with the debuff, requires the healer to purge. It’s not a case of “you need 100k dps”.

That’s the dna and receipts I want to look at. From there on, we can determine which classes needs buffs for pve.

What’s wrong with making vet content viable for pug players? At least once a day I’m helping a low cp player do vet content. I actually just recently took a screenshot of me doing Vet ROM with a couple of low 300’s. It took longer than I expected but I was proud of helping them and not be part of the ESO-Turning-into-WoW-Pve-toxicity.

mairwen85 · August 13

All vet content is doable with pugs. Some is understandably less pug friendly due to coordination requirements, but that can easily be overcome with communication. The problem arises that it is tedious and unnecessarily difficult when people aren't willing to communicate or lack the basic skill or awareness to clear. This isn't a ZOS issue, it's a player issue.

I'm getting the sense the more this thread continues that you are struggling in base game vet, and finding yourself kicked on hm in pug pledges--solution is familiarity with content. If you know what you're doing, all content is accessible. Try a guild, or make friends. If you're willing to be honest about your short comings, I may even be willing to help you out, but let's stop shifting or creating blame and talk about the actual root of what you're trying to discuss here.

ThePianist wrote: »

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Without the name calling, most players have a working or family life, or both. Many people I play with are more than capable of playing all content with several characters and classes despite only having a few hours here or there to spare.

redspecter23 · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

No body vote to kick someone because they don't like a specific class. People vote to kick when you don't do enough dps to kill bosses, when you don't know mechaincs or when run ahead of the group and just pull every mobs around and you are not even a tank.

I have been in many groups that could not kill the second boss of fungul grotto because they keep dying from the shadow mechanic. I have seen people bypass mobs in different dungeons to skip because they don't loke to waste time kill mobs, everyone ends up dying before the reach the boss. You have new players in group and you want to explain mechanivs to them, just for an entilted brat to agro bosses over and over and over then complain that other don't kbow mechanics and everyone is trash.

My personal experience will always contradict another person’s personal experience with vet pugs.

I’ve proposed the idea to ZOS, to look at dungeon logs and see which classes and play styles are getting kicked the most. If there’s 20,000 Banished cells 2 dungeon logs and 7,000 instances of someone getting kicked in that 20,000. It can’t be the same “bad” player getting kicked 7,000 times. And it cannot be 7,000 dps getting kicked, there’s some tanks not running taunt or healers not running purge in there also.

That Fungal boss with the debuff, requires the healer to purge. It’s not a case of “you need 100k dps”.

That’s the dna and receipts I want to look at. From there on, we can determine which classes needs buffs for pve.

What’s wrong with making vet content viable for pug players? At least once a day I’m helping a low cp player do vet content. I actually just recently took a screenshot of me doing Vet ROM with a couple of low 300’s. It took longer than I expected but I was proud of helping them and not be part of the ESO-Turning-into-WoW-Pve-toxicity.

I think the main issue with this idea is that you're taking data on players getting kicked and applying buffs. You're suggesting that the only reason they are being kicked is that they are too weak for the content and need mathematical improvements. The data you might want (but would be difficult to find) would be the REASON for the kicks. I would propose that the vast majority of kicks based on poor performance are the result of the player behind the screen and not because the class itself is incapable. I could of course be totally wrong, but I've played all the classes enough to know that none of them are so weak that they need a substantial overhaul in order to keep them from being auto kicked in any content.

Thannazzar · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

OK, not sure if this is a wider issue but it's never happened to me. I've rarely seen anyone kicked from a vet pug but when it's happened it's usually either;

1. They are a fake tank.
2. They have less than 20k health, less than 15 k resists and have been up and down like a yoyo for most of the dungeon.
3. They run ahead of the tank repeatedly pulling.
4. The are spamming "I want x gear in chat" or using a loot reveal mod and whispering players to demand gear before the player has had a chance to view their own drops.

Raisin · August 13

As people have said, people aren't getting kicked based on class. That's not the data that'll do you any good. As others have said, the fact that this seems to happen to you regularly is highly unusual, and there has to be more to the story. For a lot of us it's never happened at all, and for those who've experienced this kind of thing it's often once in a blue moon.
While these may not be situations where you feel like socialising, it may be worth a shot to ask your group in earnest why they kicked you.

ThePianist · August 13

“ The data you might want (but would be difficult to find) would be the REASON for the kicks. I would propose that the vast majority of kicks based on poor performance are the result of the player behind the screen and not because the class itself is incapable.”

I won’t argue trying to theory craft of what a normal pug player’s capabilities are or not, that’s something you can’t see. What you can see is dungeon data and logs.

I’m getting the vibe of “l2p, get good” rhetoric. I won’t push that idea around, I’m all for helping people play the way they want to play. Magsorcs are the most preferred dps in any content, I won’t deny that.

I’ll give you an example so you can understand where I’m coming from. If Toyota recalls a batch of 20,000 cars because there was 7,000 Fatalities related to that 20,000 cars. Are “bad drivers” the reason to blame for the recall? “Bad drivers” is not something you can’t see. In this case, it’s the car units that have a mechanical fault.

So that’s my final proposal idea to ZOS. We need to see dungeon data so we can see which classes needs buffs for pve, and a no kick option on pts dungeon for 30 days.

Jeremy · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

We need to see which classes or play styles get vote kicked the most in Vet Dungeons. Then we can decide what action to take, to make those classes viable in Vet content. Magsorc shouldn’t be the cream of the crop for pve and pvp.

I know this is an MMO but let’s be reasonable for a second. Since the “RONA” started, I’ve been working full time. I’m not one of these afraid-of-the-sun pve elitists.

Vet content should be viable in pugs without the toxicity, and without the abuse of the vote kicking option.

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason. This isn’t about a dps issue, it’s about getting kicked on the last boss. This is the abuse that I’m talking about. Some people think it’s funny to kick a random pug on the last boss.

What can we do about this? Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players. It must be really toxic for new players I guess.

There are definitely troll groups out there who do this - they wait until the last boss then kick you just to be a ____. I've even had them kick me after the last boss was dead and the dungeon was over just to be annoying. It's also why I think friends who queue up together should only count as one vote toward kicking someone. Currently it's too easy for a group of friends to abuse the kick function and torment the one pug player in the group with the way it is now.

The best you can do is just report them and hope ZoS does something about it.

mairwen85 · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

Magsorcs are the most preferred dps in any content, I won’t deny that.

universal_wrath · August 13

You are correct some tank do not run taunt, they get kicked. Some healers do not use purge because it is not a must have, but if they don't properly heal, they fet kicled too. This vote to kick is not related to DD specs only, it include all roles. And almost same rule apply to them. Tank with low HP/resistance or no tank will be kicked mosr of the time. Healers who do not have suffiecnt healing power wilp be kicked. DD who deals too low damage according to their lvl will be kicked. Every one who does not know mechanics, run ahead of group, cause group wipes will be kicked.

zvavi · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

Magsorcs are the most preferred dps in any content, I won’t deny that.

I will deny that because it is plain wrong. Magblades have better self healing, better sustain, and no pets. People in vCR groups bring a sorc tank because nobody wants to play mag sorc.

I play all mag classes and never had the problem you have encountered. If you are getting kicked on all 3 of your dds, something is up, and it is not with the class.

redspecter23 · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

“ The data you might want (but would be difficult to find) would be the REASON for the kicks. I would propose that the vast majority of kicks based on poor performance are the result of the player behind the screen and not because the class itself is incapable.”

I won’t argue trying to theory craft of what a normal pug player’s capabilities are or not, that’s something you can’t see. What you can see is dungeon data and logs.

I’m getting the vibe of “l2p, get good” rhetoric. I won’t push that idea around, I’m all for helping people play the way they want to play. Magsorcs are the most preferred dps in any content, I won’t deny that.

I’ll give you an example so you can understand where I’m coming from. If Toyota recalls a batch of 20,000 cars because there was 7,000 Fatalities related to that 20,000 cars. Are “bad drivers” the reason to blame for the recall? “Bad drivers” is not something you can’t see. In this case, it’s the car units that have a mechanical fault.

So that’s my final proposal idea to ZOS. We need to see dungeon data so we can see which classes needs buffs for pve, and a no kick option on pts dungeon for 30 days.

In your example, Toyota doesn't recall cars because of fatalities. They may research why there were an abnormal amount of fatalities with that particular model. Once they isolate an issue (if any), then they do the recall.

To apply it to your situation, ZOS may notice an abnormal amount of a certain class (make of car) being kicked. What they should then do is examine the reasons for that to see if there is something that even needs to be fixed (recalled). You want to skip over that part. You want to just say that a greater number of class X is being kicked so therefore they need buffs to keep from being kicked. You're taking data, drawing your own conclusions from that data and applying a fix to the faulty conclusion you drew. Buffing classes based on a disproportional amount of kicks in pve content is a fundamentally horrible way to balance the game as then you create an imbalance in all other forms of organized pve content like premade teams.

If you were to look at the data and see that sorcs get kicked twice as much as nightblade for instance, what would you buff exactly to "fix" that problem? You can potentially see that they are being kicked more often, but the reason is important. You can't fix something without knowing what the issue is. Did they get kicked for bad dps? How often was that the player and not the class? Maybe sorcs just get kicked more often because players just plain don't like flappy crap in their face all the time. The fix would then be to remove pets, no?

Eifleber · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

I have a max stamnecro, magblade and stamblade and I’m always getting vote kicked for no reason.

Like most other posters, I hardly ever see that happening.
What server do you play, PC, XBox, EU, USA?

Main reasons I see people get votekicked in vets:

1. They disconnect and don't rejoin within 5 minutes
2. Only ~12k health, die a lot and refuse to eat even when offered (I'd say 18k = minimum)
3. CP below 160 (mostly in DLC vets though)
4. Fake tank that dies a lot
5. Very very low dps so even the easiest boss takes 30 mins to kill

If you are not in one of these categories I am very surprised that you get kicked so often.

*

Alidel · August 13

I play a lot of vet dungeons, and do a lot of pug trials. I've never got kicked, even once. I've accustomed to the randomness of each group, and actually randomness is what I like about it, you never know what kind of group you'll get and what experience it will be, and that's the best of it. Since I pug a lot - I have couple of red flags which trigger me and I leave group right away instead of powering through content. Mostly it's character name, or account name, if I see something offensive in caps lock as a name - that's the sign that I don't want to play with this player. Second issue is group chat - if I see one player being toxic in group - I vote to kick them, if it's two or more - I leave the group. I've never seen someone getting criticized based on their class or build (this criticism does happen, but in pve guilds that push scores and achieves, thus I find it understandable), more then that, if you're going in with something funky - people get genuinely interested in your build, and are mostly supportive.

Czekoludek · August 13

OP what is your cp? Usually when you pug, most time ppl get kicked is because of lack of dps, standing in stupid, low cp for harder dungs, toxicity or afk

Jeremy · August 13

If the OP was getting kicked because his or her character wasn't up to snuff then it wouldn't always happen at the last boss.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Aznarb · August 13

I never get kick of a pug group.
That said their is people who insult and leave too !
In some vDLC, I can understand if someone have a very very low dps or is not doing his job to get kick, especially if the team want the HM. But they should try with 1st and explain to him. Then if he don't answer and keep being bad, yes, kick. In a pug group all is expected to do is role and know the DG.
Their is guild for discovery, don't do that in pug, it's often not a good experience for you and the group.

I've see one tank like this Yesterday in CoH1, he leaved probably cuz DPS was rushing. I was the healer, I just slotted and agro and we did it in HM easy. Dunno why people get mad in easy DG.

Yesterday again, some guild-mate of my casual guild asked me if I can help them for last boss of Fang's lair cuz the healer said they was low dps and tank die to much. I go with them, Tank never die once, he was just lacking of ressource cuz other healer wasn't doing this job, and we clean it easy, no need high dps for this one who is full mechanic based lul.

Some people are just bad and stupid.

Alidel wrote: »

I play a lot of vet dungeons, and do a lot of pug trials. I've never got kicked, even once. I've accustomed to the randomness of each group, and actually randomness is what I like about it, you never know what kind of group you'll get and what experience it will be, and that's the best of it. -snip-.

Ahah agree sometime it can be horrible, some other all fine but nothing fun, and sometime you find some very cool people to talk with or who ask you help and advice to learn DG mechanic, these are the best moment

ThePianist wrote: »

Vet content is already impossible for most stamina players.

I'm sorry but if you said that, that just mean you'r not good at all at playing your class. I suggest you to learn the strat better and know your class better and you'll do them with no problem.

Most vet HM content I've done are with my friends playing : Stamcro and Stamplar.

Just keep learning, you'll do them w/o problem I swear to you

ThePianist · August 13

“ To apply it to your situation, ZOS may notice an abnormal amount of a certain class (make of car) being kicked. What they should then do is examine the reasons for that to see if there is something that even needs to be fixed (recalled). You want to skip over that part. You want to just say that a greater number of class X is being kicked so therefore they need buffs to keep from being kicked. You're taking data, drawing your own conclusions from that data and applying a fix to the faulty conclusion you drew.”

Are you sweating at the notion of Nightblades getting buffed? LOL.

Dungeon data and logs will show everything. I did not say NB’s only, I also said other play styles like bow only.

So if the data does show that certain classes like NB’s or Stamdens as dps, are under performing, then they need a buff or rework to their skills for pve content.

What’s wrong with buffing all stam classes to be viable dps in vet pug content? That is the conclusion I am drawing and we need to see the logs for it.

If I was a salesman at ZOS, I’d make sure vet content hits all market corners. Not just cater to 1 type of group people, that’s not going to earn me money.

Eifleber · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

Are you sweating at the notion of Nightblades getting buffed? LOL.

If nobody recognizes your story this more seems a demand for buffs for your class.
You seem to conveniently ignore everything people are replying.

Sorry

Aznarb · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

“ To apply it to your situation, ZOS may notice an abnormal amount of a certain class (make of car) being kicked. What they should then do is examine the reasons for that to see if there is something that even needs to be fixed (recalled). You want to skip over that part. You want to just say that a greater number of class X is being kicked so therefore they need buffs to keep from being kicked. You're taking data, drawing your own conclusions from that data and applying a fix to the faulty conclusion you drew.”

Are you sweating at the notion of Nightblades getting buffed? LOL.

Dungeon data and logs will show everything. I did not say NB’s only, I also said other play styles like bow only.

So if the data does show that certain classes like NB’s or Stamdens as dps, are under performing, then they need a buff or rework to their skills for pve content.

What’s wrong with buffing all stam classes to be viable dps in vet pug content? That is the conclusion I am drawing and we need to see the logs for it.

If I was a salesman at ZOS, I’d make sure vet content hits all market corners. Not just cater to 1 type of group people, that’s not going to earn me money.

All class are good enough for vetDLC content lol.
You don't need 90k to clear content, afaik most people who did these don't even do high DPS.
Doesn't matter if a class can "potentially" hit 100k on good hand, for most player it not gonna change anything because they don't have the level to do that.
You really think a class is gonna carry you ? Nop, time to learn.

redspecter23 · August 13

ThePianist wrote: »

“ To apply it to your situation, ZOS may notice an abnormal amount of a certain class (make of car) being kicked. What they should then do is examine the reasons for that to see if there is something that even needs to be fixed (recalled). You want to skip over that part. You want to just say that a greater number of class X is being kicked so therefore they need buffs to keep from being kicked. You're taking data, drawing your own conclusions from that data and applying a fix to the faulty conclusion you drew.”

Are you sweating at the notion of Nightblades getting buffed? LOL.

Dungeon data and logs will show everything. I did not say NB’s only, I also said other play styles like bow only.

So if the data does show that certain classes like NB’s or Stamdens as dps, are under performing, then they need a buff or rework to their skills for pve content.

What’s wrong with buffing all stam classes to be viable dps in vet pug content? That is the conclusion I am drawing and we need to see the logs for it.

If I was a salesman at ZOS, I’d make sure vet content hits all market corners. Not just cater to 1 type of group people, that’s not going to earn me money.

I'll address a few points. Nightblade was just the class I chose as an example. Feel free to substitute any other class if you'd like. Just an example. I have a stamblade and a magblade and I'm looking forward to playing both next update.

Dungeon logs can be a great tool, but I don't think they tell the whole story. However if I were to choose something to base buffs/debuffs on I'd choose the logs and just leave the pug booting out of it completely. It's far too subjective. Log data may show that some classes are underperforming in certain roles, but the number of classes that are booted from pugs is just a completely different thing with far too many variables to be a factor in determining changes.

Stam dps is definitely struggling right now. The main problem would be Thrassian Stranglers, but that will be a non issue next update. There may still be other things to look at, but in my opinion, that one item was causing a massive divide.

As much as I'd like to see more players in more content, I feel that the hardest content is just not balanced against an average pug group. I feel this is by design. The designers want players to be organized and at least moderately skilled to complete vet DLC. To complete vet DLC achievements like hard mode, no death, etc. there is a certain level of competence involved that some players just don't have. I don't think that sort of content can be balanced for average players without completely dumbing it down. Buffing classes to the point that average pugs can complete it would not be any better.