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Magicka Nightblades / Dark Cloak

  • the1andonlyskwex
    the1andonlyskwex
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    @ZOS_Gilliam Please improve magBlades before the PTS cycle ends, magBlades have been in a bad spot in PvP but with the Greymoor changes they got worse and still nothing in 6.1.2. I know you care about Nightblades, so do we!

    Not only did they not directly address magblades, they specifically didn't give an answer to whether grim focus was meant to be excluded from the new crit damage bonus.

    So not only do they not address any of the classes main problems, but they also find a way to not even mention, not even one single sentence, a potentially new problem they created.

    I think that should tell you all you need to know about how ZOS feels about bringing magblades up to par with everyone else.

    I don't really understand why people are so up in arms about the crit bonus affecting the proc.

    1) It's only about a 6% buff to the actual damage, once you factor in the 50%-60% crit bonus people have from other sources.
    2) It only applies when the proc crits, so it has an even smaller impact on DPS (from that one skill, that only procs once every 5-6 seconds).
    3) If it did affect the proc, ZOS would probably reduce the base proc damage to account for it.
  • Rianai
    Rianai
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    If ZOS's buffs class skills, players might end up using them instead of relying on all those shiny procs they just added/buffed. Obviously we can't have that. Just think about all the lag the skill spam creates. Better snatch some Caluurion pieces, best combined with one or two other procs of your choice and enjoy watching your opponents die while waiting out skill cooldowns.
    Edited by Rianai on July 28, 2020 4:37PM
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    Rianai wrote: »
    If ZOS's buffs class skills, players might end up using them instead of relying on all those shiny procs they just added/buffed. Obviously we can't have that. Just think about all the lag the skill spam creates. Better snatch some Caluurion pieces, best combined with one or two other procs of your choice and enjoy watching your opponents die while waiting out skill cooldowns.

    This really seems to be their "solution" to lag.

    ... and still magblade is the worst/2nd worst PvP class of all of them, and they still nerf our best skills covering it with some meaningless buffs. Simply awesome.
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.

    Mael Nightshadow - that's all you need to know.
  • JayKwellen
    JayKwellen
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    If ZOS's buffs class skills, players might end up using them instead of relying on all those shiny procs they just added/buffed. Obviously we can't have that. Just think about all the lag the skill spam creates. Better snatch some Caluurion pieces, best combined with one or two other procs of your choice and enjoy watching your opponents die while waiting out skill cooldowns.

    This really seems to be their "solution" to lag.

    ... and still magblade is the worst/2nd worst PvP class of all of them, and they still nerf our best skills covering it with some meaningless buffs. Simply awesome.

    In preparation for the loss of damage mitigation from grim focus, I changed my magblade back to stealth and I've been trying to make a stealth magblade without any proc sets. No Caluurion, no zaan, nothing. And let me tell you...

    Its been terrible. I tried a 110% crit damage 65% crit build with torug/mother's sorrow, I tried high crit with higher base damage in necro/mothers sorrow, I tried max mag with crafty/necro, tried raw spell damage, tried using elemental weapon to kinda mimic having a proc set, tried everything. Just can't do it, and unlike my previous dark cloak I also can't stay alive and brawl until I wear them down either.

    Maybe I'm just trash at this class, but I never struggled like this with any other character. The killing power just isn't there, and the slightest mistake with my shade or cloak failing at an inopportune time and it's over in an instant. Killing new/inexperienced/average players is fine, but the second I come up against a a skilled opponent (doesn't help that my play time is mostly made up of those type of players) there's no chance, something I don't experience on any of my other characters. Even against players far above my caliber, on my other characters I can usually give a good fight, occasionally even get lucky and win. Not on the magblade though.

    I didn't want to believe that procs were necessary for this playstyle, but I get it now. Unless there's a secret no-proc magblade meta I'm unaware of, without procs there simply isn't enough sustained pressure in the classes kit to get people down, and there isn't enough burst to finish them.

    I don't think there was a point to this, kinda just needed to vent about the state my favorite class is in.
    Edited by JayKwellen on July 29, 2020 10:04AM
    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    Aldmeri Dominion
    Magblade main -- Yes, I do hate myself that much actually, thanks.
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    Dunno, dark cloak heals me for 700 per second in no cp and in light armor. Its not that bad. Sure, rapid heals for 1.2k per second but its duration is significantly shorter, its unreliable with allies around and it doesnt provide minor protection + shadow passives. Also keep in mind that rapid/radiating tooltips are highly inflated compared to almost all class hots.

    If you combine dark cloak with swallow soul, rapid/radiating, siphoning strikes and dampen magic as your defacto burst 'heal' (shields are comparatively better this patch than last, since they arent affected by healing nerfs) you got yourself a very solid defense. On my magblade I can pretty handily face tank draugrkin stamsorcs which I cant say for some of my other characters.

    That being said, I fully agree that the extra crit damage/healing on merciless stacks needs to linger for at least 1 second after activation, so it can affect the bow proc itself.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc & Magblade
  • Alchimiste1
    Alchimiste1
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    Vermintide wrote: »
    Magblade is more of a range class

    I disagree. Bursting an enemy with any reliability requires melee range.

    thats why I said mostly a range class, the only time you go in close is to incap, and thats it. for most of the fight you wont be standing in front of dk/templar or whatever and if you do you're going to die
    Edited by Alchimiste1 on July 29, 2020 11:51PM
  • xI_The_Owl_Ix
    xI_The_Owl_Ix
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    Vermintide wrote: »
    Magblade is more of a range class

    I disagree. Bursting an enemy with any reliability requires melee range.

    thats why I said mostly a range class, the only time you go in close is to incap, and thats it. for most of the fight you wont be standing in front of dk/templar or whatever and if you do you're going to die

    Spectral Bow heals you only if youre in 7m range of the target, it also has better chance of hitting since the travel speed is very slow and easily dodgable from range. Same goes for Swallow Soul due to its travel time its better to use it close range. Magblade is pretty much a melee class.
  • Langeston
    Langeston
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    Vermintide wrote: »
    Magblade is more of a range class

    I disagree. Bursting an enemy with any reliability requires melee range.

    thats why I said mostly a range class, the only time you go in close is to incap, and thats it. for most of the fight you wont be standing in front of dk/templar or whatever and if you do you're going to die

    Spectral Bow heals you only if youre in 7m range of the target, it also has better chance of hitting since the travel speed is very slow and easily dodgable from range. Same goes for Swallow Soul due to its travel time its better to use it close range. Magblade is pretty much a melee class.

    Yeah, Magblades only really have 3 fully ranged class abilities:

    Impale
    Cripple
    Swallow Soul (reliability suffers at range though)

    While they have 9 abilities that require you to be in melee distance to take full/any advantage of:

    Soul Harvest
    Lotus Fan
    Merciless Resolve
    Concealed Weapon
    Mass Hysteria
    Soul Tether/Siphon
    Sap Essence
    Twisting Path
    Consuming Darkness

    So you're constantly within melee range, despite the fact that you're probably the squishiest player on the field. (If you want to get kills, you can't build for defense like other classes can.) You're constantly bouncing back and forth from range to melee distance and back, despite the fact that you really have no business being within in melee range in the first place.

    This is why Shade is such a vital aspect to the class, and consequently why the class is so difficult to successfully play — it's also why I like the class so much, and the reason it's so frustrating.

    I don't mind being squishy, but there's no reward for it anymore. Other classes have better burst while able to build tankier, and they all have better healing — no risk, all reward. Why would anyone want to play the squishiest class with garbage heals while knowing that the only thing someone has to do to completely ignore your burst combo is to roll dodge twice?

    High risk, little to no reward? — sign me up! I feel like a harmless gnat most of the time.
    Edited by Langeston on July 30, 2020 9:32PM
  • JayKwellen
    JayKwellen
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    @Langeston You nailed it. Why take so much risk if there's little no reward? Why would anyone want to run around with paper armor and without good heals trying to land a combo of very slow, easy to dodge, middling damage single target abilities when they could just jump on a stamden or stamcro with better heals, better mitigation, and a burst aoe combo tremendously stronger than anything a magblade has? Or a DK with better heals and pressure? Or a magsorc with better mitigation, easier damage avoidance, better heals, and better burst? Or a magplar with better burst and better heals? Even magcros and magdens have their nitch in group PvP. It's not much, but it's more than a magblade can offer still.

    Or, put more simply, why play a magblade when every class can both heal and deal damage better?

    Even Stam classes with bad heals like stamplar and stamblade have healing options a magblade doesn't -- they still have a great burst heal and a guaranteed single target self-HoT better than anything in the magblade toolkit.
    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    Aldmeri Dominion
    Magblade main -- Yes, I do hate myself that much actually, thanks.
  • Alchimiste1
    Alchimiste1
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    Bow heal is irrelevant, lotus is a very telegraphed skill, and again you should only use once you have incap ready anyways not spam. if you are using concealed weapon you are going for a melee build by choice, sap essence ? is that even used outside of niche builds, the only morph of path you should use for pvp on magblade is the healing morph which means range is again irrelevant. All in all kite until you have ult and a combo lined up or try to tank in melee range and inevitable die.
    Edited by Alchimiste1 on July 31, 2020 10:44PM
  • Langeston
    Langeston
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    Bow heal is irrelevant, lotus is a very telegraphed skill, and again you should only use once you have incap ready anyways not spam. if you are using concealed weapon you are going for a melee build by choice, sap essence ? is that even used outside of niche builds, the only morph of path you should use for pvp on magblade is the healing morph which means range is again irrelevant. All in all kite until you have ult and a combo lined up or try to tank in melee range and inevitable die.

    I'm not sure what your point is here. Even if we ignore the fact that your opinion on what is relevant or irrelevant is purely subjective, nothing you've said invalidates my point that most of the magblade toolkit is built around being in or around melee distance.

    If 3/4 of the offensive skills available to you (including both of your ultimates and your only stuns) are either gimped or completely useless at range then you're not "mostly a range class" — at best you're a hybrid melee/ranged class. (Unless you choose to use no class skills at all.)

    I agree with much of what you have to say re: the direction the combat team should take the class, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of the class itself.
  • Alchimiste1
    Alchimiste1
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    Langeston wrote: »
    Bow heal is irrelevant, lotus is a very telegraphed skill, and again you should only use once you have incap ready anyways not spam. if you are using concealed weapon you are going for a melee build by choice, sap essence ? is that even used outside of niche builds, the only morph of path you should use for pvp on magblade is the healing morph which means range is again irrelevant. All in all kite until you have ult and a combo lined up or try to tank in melee range and inevitable die.

    I'm not sure what your point is here. Even if we ignore the fact that your opinion on what is relevant or irrelevant is purely subjective, nothing you've said invalidates my point that most of the magblade toolkit is built around being in or around melee distance.

    If 3/4 of the offensive skills available to you (including both of your ultimates and your only stuns) are either gimped or completely useless at range then you're not "mostly a range class" — at best you're a hybrid melee/ranged class. (Unless you choose to use no class skills at all.)

    I agree with much of what you have to say re: the direction the combat team should take the class, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of the class itself.

    I was defending my point. you should play magblade at range for as much as possible. anyways I've lost interest. If you want to play a melee magblade that stands in front of dks and templars be my guest.
  • universal_wrath
    universal_wrath
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    ParaViking wrote: »
    I long for the days when Shadow Cloak's morphs purged negative effects. I miss a refreshing path that not only heal, but caused some damage... I can remember the days when Assassin’s Will would proc off 3 light attacks. I miss the Minor Berserk passive from Siphoning Attacks...

    It use to be so much fun... Bring all the good stuff back to the class.

    Minor berserk was from merciless skill, not siphoning attacks.
  • universal_wrath
    universal_wrath
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    @ZOS_Gilliam Please improve magBlades before the PTS cycle ends, magBlades have been in a bad spot in PvP but with the Greymoor changes they got worse and still nothing in 6.1.2. I know you care about Nightblades, so do we!

    Not only did they not directly address magblades, they specifically didn't give an answer to whether grim focus was meant to be excluded from the new crit damage bonus.

    So not only do they not address any of the classes main problems, but they also find a way to not even mention, not even one single sentence, a potentially new problem they created.

    I think that should tell you all you need to know about how ZOS feels about bringing magblades up to par with everyone else.

    I don't really understand why people are so up in arms about the crit bonus affecting the proc.

    1) It's only about a 6% buff to the actual damage, once you factor in the 50%-60% crit bonus people have from other sources.
    2) It only applies when the proc crits, so it has an even smaller impact on DPS (from that one skill, that only procs once every 5-6 seconds).
    3) If it did affect the proc, ZOS would probably reduce the base proc damage to account for it.

    it might not seem much in PvP, bit it is great for PvE for sure. Beside, it not only increase critical damage, it increase critical healing. It is nice because it gives options for people to use unpopular builds like critical based builds.
  • the1andonlyskwex
    the1andonlyskwex
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    @ZOS_Gilliam Please improve magBlades before the PTS cycle ends, magBlades have been in a bad spot in PvP but with the Greymoor changes they got worse and still nothing in 6.1.2. I know you care about Nightblades, so do we!

    Not only did they not directly address magblades, they specifically didn't give an answer to whether grim focus was meant to be excluded from the new crit damage bonus.

    So not only do they not address any of the classes main problems, but they also find a way to not even mention, not even one single sentence, a potentially new problem they created.

    I think that should tell you all you need to know about how ZOS feels about bringing magblades up to par with everyone else.

    I don't really understand why people are so up in arms about the crit bonus affecting the proc.

    1) It's only about a 6% buff to the actual damage, once you factor in the 50%-60% crit bonus people have from other sources.
    2) It only applies when the proc crits, so it has an even smaller impact on DPS (from that one skill, that only procs once every 5-6 seconds).
    3) If it did affect the proc, ZOS would probably reduce the base proc damage to account for it.

    it might not seem much in PvP, bit it is great for PvE for sure. Beside, it not only increase critical damage, it increase critical healing. It is nice because it gives options for people to use unpopular builds like critical based builds.

    I get why some people like the bonus. What I don't understand is why other people are losing their minds over the fact that the bonus doesn't affect the proc at the end.
  • universal_wrath
    universal_wrath
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    Langeston wrote: »
    Bow heal is irrelevant, lotus is a very telegraphed skill, and again you should only use once you have incap ready anyways not spam. if you are using concealed weapon you are going for a melee build by choice, sap essence ? is that even used outside of niche builds, the only morph of path you should use for pvp on magblade is the healing morph which means range is again irrelevant. All in all kite until you have ult and a combo lined up or try to tank in melee range and inevitable die.

    I'm not sure what your point is here. Even if we ignore the fact that your opinion on what is relevant or irrelevant is purely subjective, nothing you've said invalidates my point that most of the magblade toolkit is built around being in or around melee distance.

    If 3/4 of the offensive skills available to you (including both of your ultimates and your only stuns) are either gimped or completely useless at range then you're not "mostly a range class" — at best you're a hybrid melee/ranged class. (Unless you choose to use no class skills at all.)

    I agree with much of what you have to say re: the direction the combat team should take the class, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of the class itself.

    I should note that if you are talking about magicka nightblade 2/4 of their offensive skills are range and 1/4 . I count 7 offensive range skills and 4 offensive melee skill and 3 melee ultimates. It is a hybrid as you have said, but you can go full range or full melee uf you want. Each have their strenght and weaknesses.
    Edited by universal_wrath on August 1, 2020 2:27PM
  • Langeston
    Langeston
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    Langeston wrote: »
    Bow heal is irrelevant, lotus is a very telegraphed skill, and again you should only use once you have incap ready anyways not spam. if you are using concealed weapon you are going for a melee build by choice, sap essence ? is that even used outside of niche builds, the only morph of path you should use for pvp on magblade is the healing morph which means range is again irrelevant. All in all kite until you have ult and a combo lined up or try to tank in melee range and inevitable die.

    I'm not sure what your point is here. Even if we ignore the fact that your opinion on what is relevant or irrelevant is purely subjective, nothing you've said invalidates my point that most of the magblade toolkit is built around being in or around melee distance.

    If 3/4 of the offensive skills available to you (including both of your ultimates and your only stuns) are either gimped or completely useless at range then you're not "mostly a range class" — at best you're a hybrid melee/ranged class. (Unless you choose to use no class skills at all.)

    I agree with much of what you have to say re: the direction the combat team should take the class, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of the class itself.

    I should note that if you are talking about magicka nightblade 2/4 of their offensive skills are range and 1/4 . I count 7 offensive range skills and 4 offensive melee skill and 3 melee ultimates. It is a hybrid as you have said, but you can go full range or full melee uf you want. Each have their strenght and weaknesses.
    I listed the skills I was referring to this post.

    In any case, I'm not sure I follow your logic. Here is the way I see it:

    Magblade offensive abilities: (11)
    Soul Harvest
    Impale
    Lotus Fan
    Merciless Resolve
    Veil of Blades
    Concealed Weapon
    Twisting Path
    Soul Tether
    Swallow Soul
    Cripple
    Sap Essence

    Abilities that require melee distance to take full advantage of: (8)
    Soul Harvest
    Lotus Fan
    Merciless Resolve
    Veil of Blades
    Concealed Weapon
    Twisting Path
    Soul Tether
    Sap Essence

    Abilities that are fully ranged: (3)
    Impale
    Swallow Soul
    Cripple

    I included Aspect of Terror in my original post (which is how I got 3/4) because I wasn't talking specifically about offensive abilities at that point. Although the argument can be made that it is an offensive ability, I won't include it here for the sake of consistency. So let's just say that my count is now 8/11.

    The only way I can see getting to 7 ranged offensive abilities is if I count both morphs of Cripple while also including both morphs of Mark Target. Beginning with the latter, I wasn't really classifying debuffs as "offensive abilities," although I do see how the argument could be made that they are. Perhaps I should have said damaging abilities? In any case, that is why I said I'll drop Aspect of Terror for consistency. As far as Cripple, it's one skill with two morphs. The way I see it, since you'll never have both Debilitate and Crippling Grasp on your bar at the same time, it doesn't make sense to count them as separate abilities.

    The long and the short of it is this: at any given point in time, you can only have a maximum of 3 fully ranged offensive class abilities on your bar at any given point in time: Impale, Swallow Soul, and Cripple, (4 if you count Mark) while you can have 8 abilities that require melee distance to take full advantage of (9 if you include Aspect of Terror.) No matter how you look at it, if a player wants to take full advantage of the magblade toolkit, most people are going to have to be in melee range relatively frequently.

    I hope that explains where I am coming from.
    Edited by Langeston on August 1, 2020 5:32PM
  • universal_wrath
    universal_wrath
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    Langeston wrote: »
    Langeston wrote: »
    Bow heal is irrelevant, lotus is a very telegraphed skill, and again you should only use once you have incap ready anyways not spam. if you are using concealed weapon you are going for a melee build by choice, sap essence ? is that even used outside of niche builds, the only morph of path you should use for pvp on magblade is the healing morph which means range is again irrelevant. All in all kite until you have ult and a combo lined up or try to tank in melee range and inevitable die.

    I'm not sure what your point is here. Even if we ignore the fact that your opinion on what is relevant or irrelevant is purely subjective, nothing you've said invalidates my point that most of the magblade toolkit is built around being in or around melee distance.

    If 3/4 of the offensive skills available to you (including both of your ultimates and your only stuns) are either gimped or completely useless at range then you're not "mostly a range class" — at best you're a hybrid melee/ranged class. (Unless you choose to use no class skills at all.)

    I agree with much of what you have to say re: the direction the combat team should take the class, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of the class itself.

    I should note that if you are talking about magicka nightblade 2/4 of their offensive skills are range and 1/4 . I count 7 offensive range skills and 4 offensive melee skill and 3 melee ultimates. It is a hybrid as you have said, but you can go full range or full melee uf you want. Each have their strenght and weaknesses.
    I listed the skills I was referring to this post.

    In any case, I'm not sure I follow your logic. Here is the way I see it:

    Magblade offensive abilities: (11)
    Soul Harvest
    Impale
    Lotus Fan
    Merciless Resolve
    Veil of Blades
    Concealed Weapon
    Twisting Path
    Soul Tether
    Swallow Soul
    Cripple
    Sap Essence

    Abilities that require melee distance to take full advantage of: (8)
    Soul Harvest
    Lotus Fan
    Merciless Resolve
    Veil of Blades
    Concealed Weapon
    Twisting Path
    Soul Tether
    Sap Essence

    Abilities that are fully ranged: (3)
    Impale
    Swallow Soul
    Cripple

    I included Aspect of Terror in my original post (which is how I got 3/4) because I wasn't talking specifically about offensive abilities at that point. Although the argument can be made that it is an offensive ability, I won't include it here for the sake of consistency. So let's just say that my count is now 8/11.

    The only way I can see getting to 7 ranged offensive abilities is if I count both morphs of Cripple while also including both morphs of Mark Target. Beginning with the latter, I wasn't really classifying debuffs as "offensive abilities," although I do see how the argument could be made that they are. Perhaps I should have said damaging abilities? In any case, that is why I said I'll drop Aspect of Terror for consistency. As far as Cripple, it's one skill with two morphs. The way I see it, since you'll never have both Debilitate and Crippling Grasp on your bar at the same time, it doesn't make sense to count them as separate abilities.

    The long and the short of it is this: at any given point in time, you can only have a maximum of 3 fully ranged offensive class abilities on your bar at any given point in time: Impale, Swallow Soul, and Cripple, (4 if you count Mark) while you can have 8 abilities that require melee distance to take full advantage of (9 if you include Aspect of Terror.) No matter how you look at it, if a player wants to take full advantage of the magblade toolkit, most people are going to have to be in melee range relatively frequently.

    I hope that explains where I am coming from.

    Both twisting path and merciless are range, I understand that part of merciless is a melee component, but you can shoot the bow from 28m. Twisting path is considered ramge skill because it has a 15m radius, range skills start from 15m and up to 32m. Also, I counted shade, both morphs especially the mobile morhp because it deals lots of damage and tou can cast it from range and you don't have to be close. I also counted mark since you included fear. Fear has a range morhp while it is not effect it range, it is still a range morph. Excluding both mark and fear, now you have 6 range offensive skills:

    Impale
    Merciless
    Twisting path
    Dark shade
    Swollow soul
    Criple

    I do get that some morphs are weaker at range, but that is a downside of playing range, you detach yourself for melee combat and pressure in expense of damage. Magicka sorcerer is probably the only class in the game with almost full offensive range skills which is why they have shields and moblity they lack defensive capabilites without shields.

    It is just how the classes were first designed. sorcerer was range DD, nightblade was melee DD and dragonknight tank، and templar healer. There was no such thing as magicka or stamina specs at the first yeae wyen the game launched, zos later on started to implement changes to interduce stamina and magicka specs if all classes.
  • boaz733
    boaz733
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    I recently moved from stamNB to magNB , and it's just terrible, it's so hard to survive on this toon , i died so many time on situations where if I was on my stamNB i would have survived easily, this class needs some love urgently
    there are 2 main issues
    1. the skill cost are too high for what they give - for example:
    Shuffle IV cost 3091 Stamina VS Phantasmal Escape IV - 3969 Magicka
    Dark Cloak IV 4050 Magicka VS Rapid Regeneration IV 2700 Magicka

    2. the healing is too low compare to other HOT:
    Dark Cloak 16,288 HOT vs Regeneration 20,991 and that's with 31K HP! -it's just bad.

    and I wanted to talk about the DMG as well, but I figure why waste my time, from my experiences nobody from ESO is going to care about what I write anyway, so just saying I feel the pain, and I understand why so many people are leaving the game recently, however, every day I see new people on the beginner's zones who just started playing, so maybe its just time for us veterans to put down out swords and staff's and move on to new things.
    Edited by boaz733 on August 2, 2020 10:05AM
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    I'm having a break from ESO - on detox ;) But I still hang around the forums from time to time, and as I see hopes for anything positive this patch are gone, another few months gone. The only thing we can pray for is that those AoE tests are ONLY TESTS indeed, not a casting for best method to deal with Cyrodiils performance...
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.

    Mael Nightshadow - that's all you need to know.
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