Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

AlnilamE · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

Linaleah · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.

and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.

just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.

ArcVelarian · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

QoL would just be giving every class a self heal as good as Vigor. Looking at you DKs...

Kiralyn2000 · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?
...

You sound very unfamiliar with PvE quests and all the other things that people have to travel for, like surveys and excavating.

I've been doing those since 2016 (I don't dungeon queue or PvP. Riding around doing world stuff is basically all I do). Never occurred to me to get or use Rapid. This thread is literally the first time I've seen a bunch of people yelling about how essential Rapid is. Never saw it recommended to new players in zone chat.

Linaleah · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

then maybe its a nerf to both? which let be honest, makes it even worse.

Hurbster · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

Just watched Alcast's video on the patch notes, he summed it up quite well. Vigor only screwed stamina characters, moving Raps screws everyone.

Look, everyone thinks moving vigor is an excellent idea, it's the swapping it with raps that makes you scratch your head.

SydneyGrey · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone

This is the best idea I've seen. It should have been there from the very start.

Sylvermynx · July 2020

Other:

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?
...

You sound very unfamiliar with PvE quests and all the other things that people have to travel for, like surveys and excavating.

I've been doing those since 2016 (I don't dungeon queue or PvP. Riding around doing world stuff is basically all I do). Never occurred to me to get or use Rapid. This thread is literally the first time I've seen a bunch of people yelling about how essential Rapid is. Never saw it recommended to new players in zone chat.

Yeah. I've never used rapids. I'm not one to RP walk, but I don't race around the world either. I don't mind getting places on slow mounts on new characters. I'm never in much of a hurry - I like to wander the world, and smell the roses.... or something like that. Games are to me a place to spend some quality time appreciating the world building the devs have done, enjoying the quests, seeing the sights.

BigBragg · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

I'm curious to those who support the change, how many are on console?

Since many who are on PC use an add on called Assist Rapid Riding that will automatically slot the skill when you mount, unslot it when used, put it back just before it wears off, and unslot it when you dismount. Super helpful in addition to the skill itself. I use it in overland and Cyrodill religiously. I also tell new players about this frequently. So if you don't know, or are on console, I'm sorry you are missing out. Unless you want to enjoy your Sunday drive while picking flowers, more power to you.

16BitForestCat · July 2020

Other:

I really love the suggestion that Rapids should be relocated to the World skill category and let players unlock it at the start. I've never understood why Rapids was under Alliance War skills anyway. (Also, stop telling me I can't cast it with my cursor near NPC's if I have the "prevent attacking innocents" option toggled. Going fast isn't hurting anyone! Guards aren't gonna write me a speeding ticket!)

--Player who's been in game since closed beta and has literally never used Vigor so doesn't have an opinion on that side of the issue...but every single one of my characters uses Rapids+Assist Rapid Riding like it's required to live

Nemesis7884 · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

I would switch it
if you are in a group someone usually has rapid and buffs you with it
alternatively you could also lower the requirements for vigor to lvl 4 which would also work or exchange it to lvl 3 support with some support skill

its just a bit suboptimal that a kinda "required" stamina heal is quite far down the pvp line

what you COULD also do is maybe switch circle of protection and vigor e.g. moving it to the fighters guild line?

SaucyMcSauceface · July 2020

caperb wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I agree with CMDR that this change is good for the game overall. Vigor is more important in both PvE and PvP. This is a change that makes sense.

Further, Zos has made it very easy and fast to unlock all the skills in both AvA lines. It used to require several times that amount of AP to get to the same ranks and Zos has already significantly increased the amount of AP we have gained.

I don't deny that vigor is more important in endgame. My main point is that rapids is needed immediately on all builds, while this isn't the same for vigor. Getting the AP on a leveled character is very easy yes, but on a character with low mount speed it is not. ZOS is making a change that will do no good for new characters, while usually a leveled character has done enough PvP to unlock both anyway.

I don't bother unlocking rapids on most of my toons. I can get anywhere by porting to guild members, so I just don't see the point. I just feed my mount over time, and eventually end up at the same place. I do get Vigor on all of my stam toons though.

UrQuan · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

Ri_Khan wrote: »

"Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again."

Say what now? This is unclear. What does Caltrops have to do with any of this???

Vigor is the 3rd skill you unlock in the Assault skill line, Caltrops is the 4th.

It currently goes:
Rank 2 (1st skill unlocked): Rapids
Rank 4 (2nd skill unlocked): Warhorn
Rank 5 (3rd skill unlocked): Vigor
Rank 6 (4th skill unlocked): Caltrops
Rank 7 (5th skill unlocked): Magicka Det

MercilessnVexed · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

ZoooooooooooooooooS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! WTH! I know we're a sideshow Bob, but FARMING?!?!?! Surveys and maps?? I don't want to fight 50 jillion things farming, I want to GET THERE, and get it done, and GET AWAY to the next spot! Just... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

The sensible edit: Yes I know farmers could PVP until they get level 5 so they can slot it. But not all of us PVP. Please don't derail into the I-don't-like-PVP threads or the if-you-don't-PVP-tough-noogies threads.

Point: A guild group that wants to farm world bosses or maybe something else that requires group mobility will no longer be able to have just any ol' Joe leading the group - because anyone who does NOT have Rapids would be letting the fast people get ahead and the new people get left behind. This is not proper group behavior. ANYONE RIGHT NOW, can lead if they have the wayshrines and have slotted Rapids. Please don't take that away from guilds, ZoS. It limits what players within a guild can do when they want to form groups for fun. Isn't this game about fun???

Silver_Strider · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

I don't use Rapids, even on new characters since I typically just log in on them, train my horse and log off them to go about my dailies on other characters until my horse is on a decent-ish speed before I bother playing those characters.

I don't like wasting skill points on skills that are of niche use and nothing in PvE really requires me to go quickly when I could use that skill slot on a use I intend to use and morph quicker without constantly swapping out Rapids for more key skills. I say go for it.

Apox · July 2020

Other:

im fine with keeping it as it is now, but another decent solution is to just reduce the requirement of vigor from 5 assault to 3. after the cyrodiil intro quest all it would take is 1 battleground to unlock vigor at assault 3. still very fast to get

caperb · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?
...

You sound very unfamiliar with PvE quests and all the other things that people have to travel for, like surveys and excavating.

I've been doing those since 2016 (I don't dungeon queue or PvP. Riding around doing world stuff is basically all I do). Never occurred to me to get or use Rapid. This thread is literally the first time I've seen a bunch of people yelling about how essential Rapid is. Never saw it recommended to new players in zone chat.

Yeah. I've never used rapids. I'm not one to RP walk, but I don't race around the world either. I don't mind getting places on slow mounts on new characters. I'm never in much of a hurry - I like to wander the world, and smell the roses.... or something like that. Games are to me a place to spend some quality time appreciating the world building the devs have done, enjoying the quests, seeing the sights.

It amazed me that some people never used rapids before. Can't say you've been living under a rock because I know some people approach this game different or as a single player, but I'm at least surprised.

I would like to invite those that never used rapids to give it a try. Just for once, if only to get a clear picture. Especially for those who voted switch, because then you might understand why getting rapids before vigor makes it bearable to get vigor on a low level character and not vica versa.

Gythral · July 2020

Other:

Simply put
No-one gets a choice of playing a snail
everyone can choose not to to need Vigor/Caltrops/Warhorn

& using Rapids is like breathing - no-one tells you to do it, it's simply automatic...

Nomadic_Atmoran · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

If its a nerf to anyone it is a nerf to new players. Anyone that has been in PvP even for a short period of time has unlocked everything to unlock for PvP skill lines.

redgreensunset · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

karthrag_inak wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

Has it occured to the people who say that they "simply" should switch vigor over to be the first skill in the support skill line that that might not be simple, or even possible codingwise? Gotta love backseat coders.

This one wrote his first doubly linked list in highschool in 1983. Willing to bet that it really is "that simple".

Except unless you actually worked on the ESO code you have as little idea as I as to how things are actually set up.

Xologamer · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

UrQuan wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

soo dude u wont belive me : ok ...
(source https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points)

mhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
(if u dont understand it basicly says that at aliance rank 5 u would be skill line 4 and if u reach alliance rank 6 with 88k ap u would be skill line lvl5)

Did you not notice that he quoted 98K AP as the amount to unlock skill line level 5? You know, the actual right amount that it takes to unlock skill line level 5, and notably not the lesser amount that it takes to unlock alliance rank 5? Come on, it's obvious what he was talking about, and he got his numbers right. He obviously understands how it works. You're not teaching him anything he doesn't know.

than just see that i correctet that it is rank 6 not 5

bmnoble · July 2020

Other:

Maybe its time to just scrap the whole unlocking skills based on the the level of the skill line, just unlock all the active skills at level 1 of the skill lines, while keeping the passives based on skill line levels.

That way PVP players still have incentive to level the skill lines which they will do anyway if they enjoy PVP and get access to the skills right away.

PVE players will get access to the skills they want without having to do anything other than unlocking the Alliance war skill line by earning some AP just by doing the Cyrodiil tutorial or one battleground or some AP from a daily log in reward.

yodased · July 2020

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.

You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.

The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎

tmbrinks · July 2020

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.

You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.

The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎

Access to a faster horse. 100% of characters can take advantage of it.

Less than 50% of characters can take advantage of vigor. (again, because some stamina classes have their own heals)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.

It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.

and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.

just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.

That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?

If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.

More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.

I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.

I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.

I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.

But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.

eKsDee · July 2020

Other:

Literally just swap Siege Shield with one of them, so that one is in Assault and the other is in Support. Boom, problem solved.

GenjiraX · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

Even first to second is a jump. First comes on level 2 (I think), then there's quite a wait until level 5, and even longer until the third skill at level 6 (I think that's right, could be mistaken).

How does Vigor help magicka-based characters? Does it matter, if they're at a fairly low level anyway?

It's not very subtle this. It's a very clear cynical move to push you towards buying speed riding skills from the Crown Store while you're slowly increasing your capacity by one slot a day.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

GenjiraX wrote: »

Even first to second is a jump. First comes on level 2 (I think), then there's quite a wait until level 5, and even longer until the third skill at level 6 (I think that's right, could be mistaken).

How does Vigor help magicka-based characters? Does it matter, if they're at a fairly low level anyway?

It's not very subtle this. It's a very clear cynical move to push you towards buying speed riding skills from the Crown Store while you're slowly increasing your capacity by one slot a day.

No it’s not level come from literally just doing the starting quest.

Vigor doesn’t help mages and that’s the point it was made for stamina players cause ZoS at the time had two or three stamina based heals NO MAGE CLASS NEEDS A VIGOR. every single mage class in game has at least four magic based heals and a whole weapon line that heals. Stamina needed and still needs this on demand heal.

It does matter and yes even on my level character my two low levels right now don’t have cause they are both necros and have stamina based class heals the drive to get Vigor is not stronger then leveling and skill points.

Horse leveling was painful slow even the game was subs only THIS IS NOT NEW I have zero faith or trust in ZoS but I don’t see this as a cash grab. When I last got Vigor on a build it took my ONE NIGHT I was just oil potting and Oil Catapulting it works wonders low level and raking in the AP.

Linaleah · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.

It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")

...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.

and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.

just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.

That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?

If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.

More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.

I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.

I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.

I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.

But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.

you know what I can say to this? apply your rant to vigor. there. and leave the current skills alone as they are. want pvp skill? (vigor) then go pvp.

DONE.

dude. you need to listen to your own words sometimes.

you are creating this bizzare slippery slope over a QUALITY OF LIFE skill, by comparing it to COMBAT skills (which vigor also is)

P.S. the only class that I have hard time with as far as personal heals go - is nighblade. and THAT is a nighblade issue, NOT lack of early vigor issue.

yodased · July 2020

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.

You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.

The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎

Access to a faster horse. 100% of characters can take advantage of it.

Less than 50% of characters can take advantage of vigor. (again, because some stamina classes have their own heals)

This is a false comparison. 100% of characters can use vigor same way 100% can use rapids.

The issue is the weight of consequence or opportunity cost for players.

Opportunity cost of fast horse for certain specs is death. Opportunity cost of vigor for all specs is slower horse.

You see the weight difference there? Inconvenience vs not having any reliable self heal