If we already have rapids does this mean we will have to reach level 5 to use rapids? ...
|f so does that mean I will have to level 17 chars .... x 14 battle grounds?
yikes....

It looks like it is coming to a point where there are two sides not moving an inch. To be honest, I didn´t knew there were so many people that really wanted to use vigor at level 10. For myself, I always use the class heals at lower levels because the difference between the attributes is small and your secondary attribute is getting the same huge buff your main attribute is getting. In my opinion, it is nonsense to need vigor at level 10. Actually, I never missed vigor leveling stamina characters because it wasn’t needed at lowers levels and at higher levels (when the attribute buff gets lower so class heals are weaker) I got it somewhere because it was easier to get because I had access to rapids!

This can be an endless debate without an outcome, however some people on this thread came with the following proposal: keep rapids at level 1 assault and switch vigor to level 1 support.

After looking at the list of AvA skills I came to the conclusion that most skills are of a defensive nature. Of the assault skills rapids, vigor and caltrops are mainly used in defensive situations. Of all the support skills only barrier can be seen as an offensive skill in some way: find your enemy in order to defeat him.

So with the feedback of some on this thread i reshuffled the AvA skillines and i think this might be the best order:

Now:

Assault

• 2 rapids
• 4 war horn
• 5 vigor
• 6 caltrop
• 7 detonation

Support

• 2 shield
• 4 purge
• 5 guard
• 6 barrier
• 7 flare

Proposed:

Assault

• 2 rapids
• 4 war horn
• 5 caltrops
• 6 flare
• 7 detonation

Support

• 2 vigor
• 4 purge
• 5 shield
• 6 barrier
• 7 guard

Edit: changed the format of the proposal to a list so it's better readable.

As a newcomer i was in dire need of vigor instead of rapid.

caperb wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

Has it occured to the people who say that they "simply" should switch vigor over to be the first skill in the support skill line that that might not be simple, or even possible codingwise? Gotta love backseat coders.

No, please explain?

I am not familiar with the ESO code, but the discussion was about ZOS swapping skills anyway. For all we know the skilllines might just be an interface layer.

You are this close to getting it you know? Point is, no we don't know how skill lines are set up in the code, but swapping a place within a skill line might be as easy as changing one or two variable while moving it to another skill line could mean having to reqrite the whole skill or even skill line depending on the set up. Skill lines appear to be discrete (ie totally separate) entities, so swapping over might not be possible without a large amount of work while pushing skills around within a specific skill line is pretty easy.
My objection are to those saying to "simply do this" and/or that "it would be easy", without knowing anything about how the code is set up.

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

The skilline will become lvl 5 when your AvA rank is 6 already

I know. I literally provided the link with all the details. Me. The information is right there in the first thread reply.

Twisting words is a common tactic used when you can't think of a better argument.

Mostly because there really is no argument, to be frank.

Wording aside, there is nothing "false" about the low requirements to get both skills now or post-stonethorn. And that is the bit that really matters for the sake of this discussion.

Hmm, I think we disagree on that part then.

Sure, on a leveled character it is extremely easy to get both skills, but that is not what I made this thread for.

It is the low leveled characters I'm worried about. It takes quite long on a new alt to get some AP, and rapids is immediately needed to make the game a bit playable at low levels. In my opinion vigor isn't needed at level 10, is easy to get at a higher level and removing rapids from assault level 1 is just unnecessary.

No, it doesn't. Use Below-50 content and you will be fine. That is what I do and I have Alliance 5 on the day. CP does not exist in Below-50 content. It is turned off. If anything it is easier to level here.

You see, if doing PvP at lvl 10, then you absolutely do benefit from Vigor. And, well, it's a PvP skill-line at the end of the day. This game needs more PvP rewards, not less. And this is actually a change that benefits both PvP and PvE players! PvE players actually get more benefit IMO. And that really is okay!

And Rapids is needed to "make the game playable at low levels"? What? Like, seriously, what?

No, it really isn't. That is called getting stuff done a bit faster, but it's far from essential in PvE. Can you please tell me where you can't access a town in Stonefalls because it's been sieged by Aldmeri players? That is where Rapids is actually needed. To react to sieges. It doesn't make a difference in PvE beyond shaving a few minutes off getting to your next quest. The PvE zones are honestly not that big.

Despite that though, not having Vigor when running stamina builds may as well mean not bothering in PvP, because you will die, and die very quickly. This is true for most players. That is why Vigor trading places with Rapids is a bigger benefit.

(Yes, I am just going to call it Alliance 5 because you all know what I mean.)

Disagree.

Rapids is an essential requirement for a low level character in PvE just to make any kind of travel bearable. Cos PvE zones are exactly that big when your speed is that slow. Remember you’ll have few weyshrines unlocked and your horse speed (cos thankfully you’re given a crap pony at L10) is congeallingly slow. Rapids allows low level players to participate in, say, dragon killing, Harrowstorms or any content where distance and speed are factors. Rapids make the Psiijic Order skill line only partially atrocious rather than a complete torturefest. It makes events like Witches, where you need to travel the whole length of Auridon just to get started, significantly easier. It makes Antiquities where you are traversing the whole of Tamriel vaguely doable. Depriving players of it is another sadistic kick in the teeth for new players.

Rapids is essential for Cyrodiil PvP too. Cos Cyrodiil is big. Like really big. Big, big, big ,big, big, big, big and big again. And speed of movement is important on a strategic, tactical and practical level. Too slow and Cyrodiil is a catastrophic time waster. You’ll miss the fights, the AP ticks and won’t be able to flee the gankers who’ll happily pick off the slowbies all day. Your Cyrodiil experience will be abject and miserable. And believe me, Vigor will not provide a crumb of comfort here.

In any case, this whole discussion is a diversion from the real issues.

First, why are ponies still so slow that Rapids is essential ?
(And I’m sure that selling [snip]scrolls in the Crown Store cannot be the answer...)

Second, why is the only effective stamina based heal still hidden behind PvP?
(And I’m sure the answer can’t be that ZOS still has no idea how to run stamina characters)

ZOS haven’t addressed either issue or provided any genuine solution by this change. What this change will do is force all characters, whether stamina or magicka, to do enough PvP that they’ll be heartily sick of it and resentful as hell about it that they never want to come back.

Once again this is a bad change entirely dictated by a tiny group of PvP whiners who ZOS seem to care about more than the majority of their players.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

NO TO THIS CHANGE.
ALL alt characters not used for fighting will become SNAKES without Rapids.
Leave Vigor to characters who want to FIGHT in the game.

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.