If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.
If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.
If it's killing the class, then I don't know for who. Class tier lists typically put stamdens above DK, but I'll tell you what: DK is more fun to play for me. I no longer subscribe to the idea that this game or possibly any MMO should be meticulously balanced according to the needs and input from top players and class representatives and especially not around duelling performance. Those players are IMO not representative of the playerbase as a whole. Warden is a boring class to me. Stam DK is a class I enjoy much moe and that is in no small measure down to the opportunistic nature of Leap, the cool animation and possibly the amount of damage it does, making it effective in the hands of a player not quite top tier, such as myself. I find the rythmic and predictable warden burst boring and cumbersome. Stam DK not being quite at the top is IMO a fair trade for having such a reactive and fun to play ultimate / burst combo. Good for open world. Judging by the amount of DKs I see in the game, the class is far from dead. I don't tend to dwell on what we've lost, such as the reflecting wings. We didn't always have Cauterize. The two DOTs are also pretty OK.Ragnarock41 wrote: »If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.
I don't think a weak class that relies too much on one signature ultimate is a good design choice. Because thats been whats happening and its killing the class. They made leap more reliable than ever while constantly nerfing everything else about the DK class. Results are obvious.
If it's killing the class, then I don't know for who. Class tier lists typically put stamdens above DK, but I'll tell you what: DK is more fun to play for me. I no longer subscribe to the idea that this game or possibly any MMO should be meticulously balanced according to the needs and input from top players and class representatives and especially not around duelling performance. Those players are IMO not representative of the playerbase as a whole. Warden is a boring class to me. Stam DK is a class I enjoy much moe and that is in no small measure down to the opportunistic nature of Leap, the cool animation and possibly the amount of damage it does, making it effective in the hands of a player not quite top tier, such as myself. I find the rythmic and predictable warden burst boring and cumbersome. Stam DK not being quite at the top is IMO a fair trade for having such a reactive and fun to play ultimate / burst combo. Good for open world. Judging by the amount of DKs I see in the game, the class is far from dead. I don't tend to dwell on what we've lost, such as the reflecting wings. We didn't always have Cauterize. The two DOTs are also pretty OK.Ragnarock41 wrote: »If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.
I don't think a weak class that relies too much on one signature ultimate is a good design choice. Because thats been whats happening and its killing the class. They made leap more reliable than ever while constantly nerfing everything else about the DK class. Results are obvious.
it is absolutely blockable and dodgeable. you can even snipe a flying dk out of the air with magnum shot or any other form of knockback and entirely avoid its damage.
@MincVinyl: I don't even know where to begin. You have the typical blinkered mindset of a meta-player and it honestly grates on my nerves. Your arguments are overzealous.
You can't make blanket statements about the Wild Hunt ring for PvP unless you play all classes. It's use on a DK may be debatable. It's use on a nightblade is a different story. There is arguably a much stronger case for it. Furthermore it's not a question of Swift or Wild Hunt, it can well be a question of Swift and Wild Hunt for some builds. Again, probably not DKs, but still.
Your analysis of what you give up is also faulty. There are plenty of builds that have used a Potentates backbar or something like a Blackrose resto in previous patches. That is typically what you give up, not your monster set. Instead of wearing, say, two damage sets, active on your front bar, you shift to a setup with Clever Alchemist, Seventh Legion, Lich, Trappings of Invigoration or something else like that on the back bar. Do you give up something? Yes. However you typically still wear two full 5-piece sets and a monster set.
I don't deny that you make a trade for movement speed. I do not accept that everyone aspires to be a 1vXer, nor a good dueller on their open world build. Nor do I accept that the trade between speed and, say, Infused weapon damage is all that clear cut. Many situations involve uneven odds and the outcome of a fight will be the same, regardless of how your build is tuned. Those where that is not the case may indeed favor the meta player on average, but speed could be a deciding factor in some fights.
None of the above. This is my magblade:kena = 560sd (kena is just an easy example to grab, EG is likely the top choice now...impossible to measure/compare easily)
Alch = 675sd
Perf Master staff = 703sd
hunt = ~300sd
(which 3 do you choose?)
very interesting quote. How do you even know stuff like this? I used to think players outplay me by rotation, movement and experience, but nothing so specific as this. Now we're getting somewhere. At the same time I want to despair. I am not so competitive that I necessarily want to concern myself with stuff like this nor am I well-enough connected in-game or on Discord to run across such nuggets of information.Back when dizzy had two aim checks and a direction check. I used to be able to initiate a dizzy, move out of melee range so the other player couldnt hit me, and then move back into range at the end of the dizzy cast.
Interesting clip andvery interesting quote. How do you even know stuff like this? I used to think players outplay me by rotation, movement and experience, but nothing so specific as this. Now we're getting somewhere. At the same time I want to despair. I am not so competitive that I necessarily want to concern myself with stuff like this nor am I well-enough connected in-game or on Discord to run across such nuggets of information.Back when dizzy had two aim checks and a direction check. I used to be able to initiate a dizzy, move out of melee range so the other player couldnt hit me, and then move back into range at the end of the dizzy cast.
As to my clip, yeah, that fight was easy mode. It was also from a time when I didn't use Zaan, just some sustain and stat pieces. The biggest recent improvement to my burst has come from switching Lotus Fan out for Elemental Weapon, which is partially due to Caluurion now reliably triggering from light attacks. I don't think it did that before. Elemental Weapon -> Soul Harvest -> Fear (Caluurion, buffed by Soul Harvest) is much better burst than what I had in that clip, albeit more difficult to land. This is where the speed helps. The most marked improvements have come from changes in bar layout and playstyle for me.
I know that in many ways building for pure damage is objectively the best. It raises the bar on the number of players you can kill or that you can kill fast enough to enable 1vXing. It also improves your healing. I really dislike just how much the game punishes building for more varied and utilitarian playstyles. At the same time, I am still willing to make that compromise, because I have the most subjective fun on speed-based builds and, more generally, by exploring off-meta builds. Perhaps it's just as well. If everyone built for speed, like I do, that would probably be very annoying. We'd have Summerset again.
@fred4
So when i build i try to really really compare efficiencies of different sources. Being a bosmer stamsorc since the beginning of the game kinda forced me to go towards the math side of things to stay relevant. In all honest swapping over to an orc stamcro would probs be easy mode. Most of the things I learned were from playing solely pvp since beta. When it comes to building i try to make sure I only have enough damage to kill the average player. If I try to make a build that can 1v1 an equally skilled opponent it means I am taking away from potential sustain/tankiness that is required in todays ball zerg meta.
@fred4
So when i build i try to really really compare efficiencies of different sources. Being a bosmer stamsorc since the beginning of the game kinda forced me to go towards the math side of things to stay relevant. In all honest swapping over to an orc stamcro would probs be easy mode. Most of the things I learned were from playing solely pvp since beta. When it comes to building i try to make sure I only have enough damage to kill the average player. If I try to make a build that can 1v1 an equally skilled opponent it means I am taking away from potential sustain/tankiness that is required in todays ball zerg meta.
I feel this is sadly true. You just have to accept you can not beat everyone and it's better to avoid certain situations or encounters completely and that we are bound to slay fools and mediocre opponents.
- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough
As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS
JayKwellen wrote: »@fred4 Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.
Just wanted to add to this, I fought an (admittedly very good) DK who was using the Wild Hunt ring, likely other speed modifiers as well. It wasn't a 1v1 either, it was my husband and I on a stamden and stamcro v. the StamDK. Dude was a monster.
I'm not entirely sure what the rest of his build was, but he still must have had very appreciable weapon damage because he pumped out tons of damage and his healing was off the charts too. That wasn't the issue though, it was literally just the speed.
Dude was so fast I couldn't even keep up with him on my warden when he decided to run. Of course he wasn't running away either, he was just giving himself some distance to let his vigor tick and reset the fight a bit, and he was so fast there was nothing either of us could do about it. Well, I was able to spam my bugs I guess lol.
Do you know how much more difficult it is to try and land subassault on a guy who can almost instantly move out of its range? How hard it is to land a dizzy when the guy can move behind you and outflank you without even trying? How difficult it is to finish someone when they can so quickly move out of your execution range? Part of it was literally just that it was so completely different than what you'd normally expect from a stamDK that my brain was melting trying to interpret all this new information. Everything I thought I knew about fighting stamDK's was suddenly irrelevant, which by itself put me a huge disadvantage.
In the end we got him, but it was one of the toughest 2v1's I've ever had, and had a couple breaks gone the other way he could of easily tuned the tables on us.
So for sure, people definitely get so caught up in certain playstyles that they either overlook or unfairly discount the different viable options that exist.
The Wild hunt ring is trash except for gathering mats
hunt 15% movement speed (replaces a monster 2 piece or 5 piece set) Lets say you run hundings 5 piece(one of the lowest forms of damage set you can get
=> Hunt 15% == 300wd
Now lets look at 3x swift jewelry
18% movement == 3x infused wd == ~300 wd
This means that swift jewelry is more efficient, and this is giving hunt alot of leeway. In actuality you will end up dropping a proc like fury/clever/kena/EG/balorgh in order to just have 15% hunt so you are losing up to 650-700wd. Where if you just run swift you still only lose 300wd and can still get all of your sets no hassle, which lets you run correct weight setups you want and weapon sets you want.
movement speed is strong in combat for sure, but you always lower your potential to have it in your kit. On a 1vX build losing 100wd may me the difference in combating the heals of those X amount of players on each other. If someone is fast that just means they gave up something in their build. Or they may only be fast when they are doing an action like with Race against time, they are only mobile when they are continuously casting the ability. If someone ran a build that had 3x swift vs 3x infused wd in an even skilled duel, the 3x infused player would have drastically less issues actually fighting.
MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »The only problem with leap is de-sync he causes.
Did you just assume Leap's gender?
SORRY! plz don't ban me
Btw, about that 30k tooltip:
(1 - 10%) hardy *
(1 - 20%) ironclad *
(1 - 25%) major evasion *
(1 - 50%) block *
(1 - 8%) minor protection *
(1 - 10%+) from resistances *
(1 - 15%) from undeath....
= 0.19...
oops forgot battle spirit another 50%.... so yeah, 3k - that is damage which that leap will do if it blocked and 6k if unblocked. Those are realistic numbers which I saw against me on variety of builds. Sometimes it can crit for something like 8k, but DK should be real glass cannon.
So if you blocked it that leap will cause no damage. It causes damage when your screen freezes for 4 seconds and then you see dizzy-leap-execute-execute while on your screen nothing was happening.
You know me. You called me "feeble". Against you, that is true. I cannot defend against a well-played magsorc with a detection potion on my magblade main. It is my worst counter. Not templars. Certainly not DKs.While the squishy "damage" classes like Nightblade and Sorcerer can't even come close to Dragonknight and Templar DPS. It is flawed design in my opinion.
When I'm playing DK myself, I'm not terribly experienced. When I'm playing a shield-stacking sorc, then even less so. I am fumbling like crazy, yet I cannot be killed by most people, unless playing really, really badly. I killed the last magplar I fought in open world, who I know by name and who is a decent player. He was very active. He threw everything at me. I fumbled. I out-tanked him on my magsorc and I eventually killed him without even having Frags slotted, that's how simple I'm keeping it on that character right now.
What you're saying is preposterous. Calling magsorc squishy is preposterous. It is only true in a technical sense. You think you're a good player and you're undeniably very good and experienced in IC, when wearing Imperial Physique, but you don't know what you have.
Contrary to popular opinion, Cloak isn't nearly as broken as people say it is and Streak certainly is not. Those are huge advantages in open world. As others have said, DK doesn't have stacked burst. Leap into execute (on stam) is all they have. Is it a great skill? Yes. Does it need a nerf? IMO, no.
Does DK still feel tanky? In my experience, yes, even on a medium build (with 1H+S backbar). That's only in comparison to squishier classes I play, though, e.g. bearing in mind I main a magblade. Having no inherent mobility nor escape mechanism outside of Leap is a big drawback. It's the reason why the classes that don't have that are tankier.
Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.
When I point out the drawbacks of a slow build to a DK friend, I get the equivalent of a blank stare. He has long accepted his limitations, much as I have accepted what you might call "limited target selection" on my nightblade. This friend, I reckon you know him by name. You saw us together, once, and you immediately streaked a mile. He is a good player. Fair enough. I can tell you, though, that he hates sorcs equally because they streak. He can't keep up and has no good way of dealing with them.
As a magsorc or a nightblade, you don't get beaten. The only way you lose is because you lose. It's on you to judge the situation correctly and disengage before you die. Plenty of fights on open world builds end in a draw, but the way you draw on a nightblade is by disengaging. Sorc arguably has the same option. No generic skill compares to how well Cloak and Streak work. That is balance! It is not flawed design! If you get beaten by a good (stam) DK on those two classes, it's ultimately because you chose to stay near them a little too long.
The way I play magsorc, it is squishy. Only 1 shield and no pets. I still anticipate shield stacking to be removed one day, which would reveal how squishy this class is.
Magsorcs explode like no other class when we fight them. We make fun of that "S-Tier" class every day. All those fools playing it just to get deleted left and right.
None of them can take more than 2 hits unless they are sword and board shield stackers. This is a light armor problem more than it is a Sorcerer problem. Although Sorcerer is the only class with no damage mitigation in its kit to reduce damage taken in light armor. Light armor gives no buffs to shields or healing, so they all explode unless they are a nightblade with 4 arrow stacks or one of the tank classes.
It is true there is potential, yet you can not judge the survivability of classes only by having 4 arrow stacks or having 2 shields stacked with a fully defensive setup. Use detection against nightblades and use gapclosers against Sorcerers and their only edge crumbles. Attack their mobility and they have nothing. Sorcerer and Nightblades are the easiest classes to counter by far.
There are means to remove their defensive tactic as well as completely negating almost all their attacks. In my opinion, both classes are the absolute bottom tier of pvp and I am judging exlusively by the enemies I encounter, not by my own experiences. Nothing is as easily deleted as a magsorc and nightblade. Only very few decent ones can take a bit more. As a DK with wings, a warden with shimmering shield or generally a class with high mititgation, you would have to be braindead to die against a single Sorc or Nightblade.
Though I will say, generally you are correct with what you say. It is true, yet not quite as one sided.
maddiniiLuna wrote: »They took the CC from the Warden's Ultimate, because it was too strong, but left it on the DK. Makes perfect sense.
- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough
As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS
DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.
For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]