Speaking of Overtuned skills: Leap

Ragnarock41

MincVinyl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Not much else to say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7aZlwpl3I

So you have minor vulnerability, major breach, your resistance buff hurricane ran out, couldn't block the leap cause you were already stunned, and then you are hit by what I assume is drain health+immobilize potion

So what is this supposed to imply?

Leap pulls you out of dodge roll, actually watch the vid. Because I was technically rolling i was forced to stand there and take all of the incoming damage. I was also still charged for the roll, putting me at little to no stam. Just because I had debuffs on me does not mean I should be dead idk what you are trying to point out with that. Hurricane was down because it was timed to peak with the fury ult drop. I would have been perfectly fine there to roll and rebuff otherwise.

Wasn't very obvious to notice without you pointing it out. Seems like your dodge roll technically works (you dodge) but your character doesn't move. I can't tell what you're thinking without you spelling it out. Do you want it nerfed or do you want the bug fixed, how can I know?

Ragnarock41

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

How can you guy seriously complain about leap when this game has P2W classes like warden and necro running around with a laundry list of buffs/debuffs other classes could only dream of. Because trial groups are stacking DKs with how strong leap is right?

Cause they only care about what appears in the death recap and what is in front of their face, for unfortunately that is what their perception is good for.

ArcVelarian

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Ragnarock41

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Don't know about DPS buffs, but quality of life changes and a fair approach would be most welcome for sure. They treat DLC classes differently than the normal ones. Compare venomous claws and noxious breath to how they were before the whole dot buff-nerf cycle and its easy to see how much was taken away.

Dracane

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Don't know about DPS buffs, but quality of life changes and a fair approach would be most welcome for sure. They treat DLC classes differently than the normal ones. Compare venomous claws and noxious breath to how they were before the whole dot buff-nerf cycle and its easy to see how much was taken away.

Imagine asking for a DPS buff for the most damaging class and king of DPS since release. DK has crazy damage in both pve and pvp. You can not balance the game around those overtuned classes that can purge away all your dots. We all suffer against them. Most pvpers will never know what damage actually means. None of you builds for damage, since everyone is so afraid to die or run out of ressources. You would be surprised how damaging Dragonknight and really everyone can be if they dare a bit more.

Though quality of life would be very appreciated for DK. Same goes for most classes, however.

MincVinyl

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Not much else to say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7aZlwpl3I

So you have minor vulnerability, major breach, your resistance buff hurricane ran out, couldn't block the leap cause you were already stunned, and then you are hit by what I assume is drain health+immobilize potion

So what is this supposed to imply?

Leap pulls you out of dodge roll, actually watch the vid. Because I was technically rolling i was forced to stand there and take all of the incoming damage. I was also still charged for the roll, putting me at little to no stam. Just because I had debuffs on me does not mean I should be dead idk what you are trying to point out with that. Hurricane was down because it was timed to peak with the fury ult drop. I would have been perfectly fine there to roll and rebuff otherwise.

Wasn't very obvious to notice without you pointing it out. Seems like your dodge roll technically works (you dodge) but your character doesn't move. I can't tell what you're thinking without you spelling it out. Do you want it nerfed or do you want the bug fixed, how can I know?

Leap should adhere to the same mechanics as all the other gap closers. There is a reason the uncounterable root was removed from the other gap closers. Also the vid description explained what happened, otherwise I am sure you could have heard me attempting to roll dodge.

Wing

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Don't know about DPS buffs, but quality of life changes and a fair approach would be most welcome for sure. They treat DLC classes differently than the normal ones. Compare venomous claws and noxious breath to how they were before the whole dot buff-nerf cycle and its easy to see how much was taken away.

Imagine asking for a DPS buff for the most damaging class and king of DPS since release. DK has crazy damage in both pve and pvp. You can not balance the game around those overtuned classes that can purge away all your dots. We all suffer against them. Most pvpers will never know what damage actually means. None of you builds for damage, since everyone is so afraid to die or run out of ressources. You would be surprised how damaging Dragonknight and really everyone can be if they dare a bit more.

Though quality of life would be very appreciated for DK. Same goes for most classes, however.

parses dont count, and once again this is talking in a vacuum, and even then i recall several world firsts done by 8+ sorcs, or 8+ necro's, there has never been a world first or high level raid clear consisting of a majority of DK's, EVER.

DK damage of either side (stam or mag) is point blank.
DK has always had to decide between 2 of the 3 choices of damage, sustain, or survival, more so then any other class.

(as a note of the above 2 points, Sorc is completly ranged and can dump everything into ONE stat to gain all 3 choices)

DK dots are cleansed by over half the classes in the game, and straight up impossible to use in group pvp because purge spam is a thing.

mag DK is pretty much non existent in pvp these days because it brings nothing to the table that cannot be done better by any other magicka class and then some.
stam DK is like stam sorc where you run it for the utility the class provides rather then damage options, as the majority of stam DK damage skills are 2H skills, with maybe a breath or claw in the rotation as filler.

as a DK main since beta (a breton DK tank wandering stros m'kai in beta, it was winter during the beta and the sand and water was great, fell in love) i have watched all uniqueness destroyed from the class.
-chain people off walls (nerf, only noobs spam chains in pvp now)
-leap into keeps (nerf, not a thing)
-reflect bounce meteors back (nerf, nobody uses wings anymore)

i promise i would class change if it were a thing over to necro, templar, or warden. (NB and Sorcs are cowards, will never play them unless cloak and streak are removed from the game.)

Ragnarock41

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Don't know about DPS buffs, but quality of life changes and a fair approach would be most welcome for sure. They treat DLC classes differently than the normal ones. Compare venomous claws and noxious breath to how they were before the whole dot buff-nerf cycle and its easy to see how much was taken away.

Imagine asking for a DPS buff for the most damaging class and king of DPS since release. DK has crazy damage in both pve and pvp. You can not balance the game around those overtuned classes that can purge away all your dots. We all suffer against them. Most pvpers will never know what damage actually means. None of you builds for damage, since everyone is so afraid to die or run out of ressources. You would be surprised how damaging Dragonknight and really everyone can be if they dare a bit more.

Though quality of life would be very appreciated for DK. Same goes for most classes, however.

Contrary to what you claim DK DPS is not balanced around purges, quite the opposide they were reworked in such a way they are now more vulnerable than ever to purges. They do less damage, they last longer and cost more, so spamming them is more costly and less effective than it was before. And even back when they were potent, bleeds were stronger.

You had bleedblades beating Dks in one on one duels. You had petsorcs that abused line of sight and immortal pets to victory. Theoretically stamDK might have good DPS but this game is not about theory its about practicality.

Oh but its totally our fault for not building full weapon damage on a class with no mobility or built in tankyness. Clearly all the best Dk mains around are absolute cowards for either switching class or building tanky, but your streak spamming Imperial Physique Sorcerer is the only honorable playstyle left.

Bravo.

Mayrael

Qbiken wrote: »

Make it possible to break free while in the air from the knockup (or remove the knockup completely preferably) and remove the snare from leap and we're good.

So much this. Not being able to react after being hit is the worst part of leap. When outnumbered its a death sentence to recieve one, usually followed up by anicanceled executioners desyncing your HP. Totally hate it. All the rest is ok.


Just a reminder:
REMOVE CAST TIMES FROM ULTIMATES!

Dracane

Wing wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Don't know about DPS buffs, but quality of life changes and a fair approach would be most welcome for sure. They treat DLC classes differently than the normal ones. Compare venomous claws and noxious breath to how they were before the whole dot buff-nerf cycle and its easy to see how much was taken away.

Imagine asking for a DPS buff for the most damaging class and king of DPS since release. DK has crazy damage in both pve and pvp. You can not balance the game around those overtuned classes that can purge away all your dots. We all suffer against them. Most pvpers will never know what damage actually means. None of you builds for damage, since everyone is so afraid to die or run out of ressources. You would be surprised how damaging Dragonknight and really everyone can be if they dare a bit more.

Though quality of life would be very appreciated for DK. Same goes for most classes, however.

parses dont count, and once again this is talking in a vacuum, and even then i recall several world firsts done by 8+ sorcs, or 8+ necro's, there has never been a world first or high level raid clear consisting of a majority of DK's, EVER.

DK damage of either side (stam or mag) is point blank.
DK has always had to decide between 2 of the 3 choices of damage, sustain, or survival, more so then any other class.

(as a note of the above 2 points, Sorc is completly ranged and can dump everything into ONE stat to gain all 3 choices)

DK dots are cleansed by over half the classes in the game, and straight up impossible to use in group pvp because purge spam is a thing.

mag DK is pretty much non existent in pvp these days because it brings nothing to the table that cannot be done better by any other magicka class and then some.
stam DK is like stam sorc where you run it for the utility the class provides rather then damage options, as the majority of stam DK damage skills are 2H skills, with maybe a breath or claw in the rotation as filler.

as a DK main since beta (a breton DK tank wandering stros m'kai in beta, it was winter during the beta and the sand and water was great, fell in love) i have watched all uniqueness destroyed from the class.
-chain people off walls (nerf, only noobs spam chains in pvp now)
-leap into keeps (nerf, not a thing)
-reflect bounce meteors back (nerf, nobody uses wings anymore)

i promise i would class change if it were a thing over to necro, templar, or warden. (NB and Sorcs are cowards, will never play them unless cloak and streak are removed from the game.)

So can any other class. Sorcerer might be ranged, but is not at its maximum on range. If you want your full potential, like any class, you must go melee. This game does not favor range at all and all classes have something to them that rewards them for being close range in both pvp and pve. For sorcerer that would be streak and overload heavy attacks in pvp as well as boundless storm ticks, not counting that melee is better to reduce the chance of projectiles being dodged.

And any class can put everything into one stat to gain damage and survivability. Why else would stamina be so dominant with their 6k weapon damage? Immense damage + huge heals. This is nothing exclusive to Sorcerer. I would even argue Sorcerer is the worst when it comes to this, since magicka is vastly inferior to spell damage in terms of damage and shields now scale so poorly that you barely gain any survivability from it either.

Sorcerer is not nearly as great as people claim. It is however solid and I am content with it.

Dracane

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Don't know about DPS buffs, but quality of life changes and a fair approach would be most welcome for sure. They treat DLC classes differently than the normal ones. Compare venomous claws and noxious breath to how they were before the whole dot buff-nerf cycle and its easy to see how much was taken away.

Imagine asking for a DPS buff for the most damaging class and king of DPS since release. DK has crazy damage in both pve and pvp. You can not balance the game around those overtuned classes that can purge away all your dots. We all suffer against them. Most pvpers will never know what damage actually means. None of you builds for damage, since everyone is so afraid to die or run out of ressources. You would be surprised how damaging Dragonknight and really everyone can be if they dare a bit more.

Though quality of life would be very appreciated for DK. Same goes for most classes, however.

Contrary to what you claim DK DPS is not balanced around purges, quite the opposide they were reworked in such a way they are now more vulnerable than ever to purges. They do less damage, they last longer and cost more, so spamming them is more costly and less effective than it was before. And even back when they were potent, bleeds were stronger.

You had bleedblades beating Dks in one on one duels. You had petsorcs that abused line of sight and immortal pets to victory. Theoretically stamDK might have good DPS but this game is not about theory its about practicality.

Oh but its totally our fault for not building full weapon damage on a class with no mobility or built in tankyness. Clearly all the best Dk mains around are absolute cowards for either switching class or building tanky, but your streak spamming Imperial Physique Sorcerer is the only honorable playstyle left.

Bravo.

At least I can easily be dispatched unlike those sustain stacking, shield stacking sword and board using turtle sorcerers.
I think there is little reason to complain about my playstyle, since I am just a glass canon that can be 1 shot by everyone. You surely prefer fighting those Sorcs that never run out of ressources and never take any damage to their health.

I can hardly relate to those people who evidently only build their character in a way to avoid death rather than actually causing it.

Ragnarock41

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Between the state of Mag DK and Stam DK's ongoing saga with Stone Giant's near constant (negative) changes DK is actually in dire need of an overall DPS buff.

Don't know about DPS buffs, but quality of life changes and a fair approach would be most welcome for sure. They treat DLC classes differently than the normal ones. Compare venomous claws and noxious breath to how they were before the whole dot buff-nerf cycle and its easy to see how much was taken away.

Imagine asking for a DPS buff for the most damaging class and king of DPS since release. DK has crazy damage in both pve and pvp. You can not balance the game around those overtuned classes that can purge away all your dots. We all suffer against them. Most pvpers will never know what damage actually means. None of you builds for damage, since everyone is so afraid to die or run out of ressources. You would be surprised how damaging Dragonknight and really everyone can be if they dare a bit more.

Though quality of life would be very appreciated for DK. Same goes for most classes, however.

Contrary to what you claim DK DPS is not balanced around purges, quite the opposide they were reworked in such a way they are now more vulnerable than ever to purges. They do less damage, they last longer and cost more, so spamming them is more costly and less effective than it was before. And even back when they were potent, bleeds were stronger.

You had bleedblades beating Dks in one on one duels. You had petsorcs that abused line of sight and immortal pets to victory. Theoretically stamDK might have good DPS but this game is not about theory its about practicality.

Oh but its totally our fault for not building full weapon damage on a class with no mobility or built in tankyness. Clearly all the best Dk mains around are absolute cowards for either switching class or building tanky, but your streak spamming Imperial Physique Sorcerer is the only honorable playstyle left.

Bravo.

At least I can easily be dispatched unlike those sustain stacking, shield stacking sword and board using turtle sorcerers.
I think there is little reason to complain about my playstyle, since I am just a glass canon that can be 1 shot by everyone. You surely prefer fighting those Sorcs that never run out of ressources and never take any damage to their health.

I can hardly relate to those people who evidently only build their character in a way to avoid death rather than actually causing it.

Well the irony is I can't have a choice in the matter. Between fighting you or the ''unkillable infinite sustain sorcerer'', I will fight the one that won't streak away from me because I don't have a choice in the matter. I can't choose not to fight either.

Dk is a one dimensional class with very limited build paths. Your standarts regarding ''cowardice'' or ''bravery'' do not apply to it because the opportunity cost for playing a glass cannon Dk is just way too big after the nerfs to wings, which was the one tool I used to close gaps against sorcerers and ranged builds of all sorts.

Regardless of building tanky or not it only takes one necromancer to kill all my healing anyways, so really its not a great time to play the class regardless of the build.

SodanTok

All this skill needs:
- not slow me with that multiplicative snare crap to stand still for 3s while DK is in air
- not stun me before DK lands
- not damage me before DK lands
- clearly show the animation of DK landing not 5k dmg on combat log and wondering why health dropped
- aoe circle

and it would be alright skill in my book

fred4

Dracane wrote: »

While the squishy "damage" classes like Nightblade and Sorcerer can't even come close to Dragonknight and Templar DPS. It is flawed design in my opinion.

You know me. You called me "feeble". Against you, that is true. I cannot defend against a well-played magsorc with a detection potion on my magblade main. It is my worst counter. Not templars. Certainly not DKs.

When I'm playing DK myself, I'm not terribly experienced. When I'm playing a shield-stacking sorc, then even less so. I am fumbling like crazy, yet I cannot be killed by most people, unless playing really, really badly. I killed the last magplar I fought in open world, who I know by name and who is a decent player. He was very active. He threw everything at me. I fumbled. I out-tanked him on my magsorc and I eventually killed him without even having Frags slotted, that's how simple I'm keeping it on that character right now.

What you're saying is preposterous. Calling magsorc squishy is preposterous. It is only true in a technical sense. You think you're a good player and you're undeniably very good and experienced in IC, when wearing Imperial Physique, but you don't know what you have.

Contrary to popular opinion, Cloak isn't nearly as broken as people say it is and Streak certainly is not. Those are huge advantages in open world. As others have said, DK doesn't have stacked burst. Leap into execute (on stam) is all they have. Is it a great skill? Yes. Does it need a nerf? IMO, no.

Does DK still feel tanky? In my experience, yes, even on a medium build (with 1H+S backbar). That's only in comparison to squishier classes I play, though, e.g. bearing in mind I main a magblade. Having no inherent mobility nor escape mechanism outside of Leap is a big drawback. It's the reason why the classes that don't have that are tankier.

Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.

When I point out the drawbacks of a slow build to a DK friend, I get the equivalent of a blank stare. He has long accepted his limitations, much as I have accepted what you might call "limited target selection" on my nightblade. This friend, I reckon you know him by name. You saw us together, once, and you immediately streaked a mile. He is a good player. Fair enough. I can tell you, though, that he hates sorcs equally because they streak. He can't keep up and has no good way of dealing with them.

As a magsorc or a nightblade, you don't get beaten. The only way you lose is because you lose. It's on you to judge the situation correctly and disengage before you die. Plenty of fights on open world builds end in a draw, but the way you draw on a nightblade is by disengaging. Sorc arguably has the same option. No generic skill compares to how well Cloak and Streak work. That is balance! It is not flawed design! If you get beaten by a good (stam) DK on those two classes, it's ultimately because you chose to stay near them a little too long.

fred4

MincVinyl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Not much else to say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7aZlwpl3I

So you have minor vulnerability, major breach, your resistance buff hurricane ran out, couldn't block the leap cause you were already stunned, and then you are hit by what I assume is drain health+immobilize potion

So what is this supposed to imply?

Leap pulls you out of dodge roll, actually watch the vid. Because I was technically rolling i was forced to stand there and take all of the incoming damage. I was also still charged for the roll, putting me at little to no stam.

This is a general issue with hard CCs. If you get feared in the middle of the dodge roll, well, you don't eat ulti damage from that player in the same GCD, but the effect can be just as deadly, since you might eat a bow-proc next. Being CCd while rolling tends to result in an extra GCD being consumed, before you can break free. Call it a bug, call it a feature, it's got nothing specifically to do with Leap. Some players seem to have a knack of exploiting this. Until ZOS fix it, moral of the story is that you have to be circumspect with rolling sometimes.

Hotdog_23

DK’s need to be brought up to the same standards as new classes for Qol improvements. Mobility and a purge somewhere in their toolkit.

Mobility - Empowering Chains, Major Expedition is stupid on a gap closer, move it to wings so it can be used outside of combat. Speaking of having to have an opponent to use a skill, DK’s are the only class that must have an enemy target to use our burst heal that is not health based. [Obsidian Shard]

Wardens get a free purge on demand or every 5 seconds for nothing. Poor DK has no purge in his toolkits anywhere sure we could us the purge in support skill line, but it is expensive at over 4k magic when compared to warden’s free purge.


Oh btw leap is fine.

Be safe and have fun

Dracane

fred4 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

While the squishy "damage" classes like Nightblade and Sorcerer can't even come close to Dragonknight and Templar DPS. It is flawed design in my opinion.

You know me. You called me "feeble". Against you, that is true. I cannot defend against a well-played magsorc with a detection potion on my magblade main. It is my worst counter. Not templars. Certainly not DKs.

When I'm playing DK myself, I'm not terribly experienced. When I'm playing a shield-stacking sorc, then even less so. I am fumbling like crazy, yet I cannot be killed by most people, unless playing really, really badly. I killed the last magplar I fought in open world, who I know by name and who is a decent player. He was very active. He threw everything at me. I fumbled. I out-tanked him on my magsorc and I eventually killed him without even having Frags slotted, that's how simple I'm keeping it on that character right now.

What you're saying is preposterous. Calling magsorc squishy is preposterous. It is only true in a technical sense. You think you're a good player and you're undeniably very good and experienced in IC, when wearing Imperial Physique, but you don't know what you have.

Contrary to popular opinion, Cloak isn't nearly as broken as people say it is and Streak certainly is not. Those are huge advantages in open world. As others have said, DK doesn't have stacked burst. Leap into execute (on stam) is all they have. Is it a great skill? Yes. Does it need a nerf? IMO, no.

Does DK still feel tanky? In my experience, yes, even on a medium build (with 1H+S backbar). That's only in comparison to squishier classes I play, though, e.g. bearing in mind I main a magblade. Having no inherent mobility nor escape mechanism outside of Leap is a big drawback. It's the reason why the classes that don't have that are tankier.

Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.

When I point out the drawbacks of a slow build to a DK friend, I get the equivalent of a blank stare. He has long accepted his limitations, much as I have accepted what you might call "limited target selection" on my nightblade. This friend, I reckon you know him by name. You saw us together, once, and you immediately streaked a mile. He is a good player. Fair enough. I can tell you, though, that he hates sorcs equally because they streak. He can't keep up and has no good way of dealing with them.

As a magsorc or a nightblade, you don't get beaten. The only way you lose is because you lose. It's on you to judge the situation correctly and disengage before you die. Plenty of fights on open world builds end in a draw, but the way you draw on a nightblade is by disengaging. Sorc arguably has the same option. No generic skill compares to how well Cloak and Streak work. That is balance! It is not flawed design! If you get beaten by a good (stam) DK on those two classes, it's ultimately because you chose to stay near them a little too long.

The way I play magsorc, it is squishy. Only 1 shield and no pets. I still anticipate shield stacking to be removed one day, which would reveal how squishy this class is.

Magsorcs explode like no other class when we fight them. We make fun of that "S-Tier" class every day. All those fools playing it just to get deleted left and right.
None of them can take more than 2 hits unless they are sword and board shield stackers. This is a light armor problem more than it is a Sorcerer problem. Although Sorcerer is the only class with no damage mitigation in its kit to reduce damage taken in light armor. Light armor gives no buffs to shields or healing, so they all explode unless they are a nightblade with 4 arrow stacks or one of the tank classes.

It is true there is potential, yet you can not judge the survivability of classes only by having 4 arrow stacks or having 2 shields stacked with a fully defensive setup. Use detection against nightblades and use gapclosers against Sorcerers and their only edge crumbles. Attack their mobility and they have nothing. Sorcerer and Nightblades are the easiest classes to counter by far.

There are means to remove their defensive tactic as well as completely negating almost all their attacks. In my opinion, both classes are the absolute bottom tier of pvp and I am judging exlusively by the enemies I encounter, not by my own experiences. Nothing is as easily deleted as a magsorc and nightblade. Only very few decent ones can take a bit more. As a DK with wings, a warden with shimmering shield or generally a class with high mititgation, you would have to be braindead to die against a single Sorc or Nightblade.

Though I will say, generally you are correct with what you say. It is true, yet not quite as one sided.

fred4

@Dracane: Hmm. It's rare that I still see a DK using wings. Those were nerfed so hard that the only thing they still mitigate is Frags and Overload, right? Force Shock, Curse, Mage's Fury, Meteor, none of that is mitigated, right?

It is very strange you should rate magsorc so low. I can't really judge the class too well, but I also play a mag-stacking warden and shields work. Magicka stacking works, whereas it's my magplar that struggles. You can argue about light armor passives all day. I don't feel it in practice. The main problem I have with shield stacking is that it's expensive. Thus I must learn to only do so when needed. Not sure why you would forgo it, unless you simply wanted more bar space. For me sorc feels OP, compared to what I'm used to. That includes magblade, stam DK, magden and magplar. I'm taking the mobility for solo play into account here.

The arrow stacks are nothing to write home about. I know it's additive mitigation and there are some super tanky nightblades, but that seems to require building for other mitigation as well. I've always preferred mobility. What kills my nightblade is detection. The mobility with Snow Treaders or Wild Hunt is actually insane. Use of gap closers isn't all that common outside of maybe Toppling Charge right now, but Toppling is less of a problem for me than Streak. The problem I've had is simply melee attack reach when I'm trying to get out of range, since I don't use the shade. However a magblade stacked fully into speed counters that like never before.

Vetixio

If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.

Zatox

leap needs major vulnerability

eKsDee

SodanTok wrote: »

- not slow me with that multiplicative snare crap to stand still for 3s while DK is in air

If this is to be done, then they need to rework the way the skill is targeted.

Currently, it looks at the location of the target when the skill is cast, and has the player leap to that location, which makes it super easy to dodge/move out of in anything but melee range (this is why the snare is on it, to ensure that the target remains in the AoE and the caster doesn't waste their ult for nothing).

If the snare is to be removed, the skill needs to change so that it instead tracks the target over the entire animation, even when the target is moving or dodging.

HankTwo

eKsDee wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

- not slow me with that multiplicative snare crap to stand still for 3s while DK is in air

If this is to be done, then they need to rework the way the skill is targeted.

Currently, it looks at the location of the target when the skill is cast, and has the player leap to that location, which makes it super easy to dodge/move out of in anything but melee range (this is why the snare is on it, to ensure that the target remains in the AoE and the caster doesn't waste their ult for nothing).

If the snare is to be removed, the skill needs to change so that it instead tracks the target over the entire animation, even when the target is moving or dodging.

Yep, the snare is a band-aid fix implemented by ZOS because apparently they can't make this skill work reliably without it.

Reverb

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

The only problem with leap is de-sync he causes.

Which is a problem with all gap closers right now. Even the tiniest bit of combat lag causes positioning desyncs when using gap closers or knockbacks

MincVinyl

fred4 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Not much else to say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7aZlwpl3I

So you have minor vulnerability, major breach, your resistance buff hurricane ran out, couldn't block the leap cause you were already stunned, and then you are hit by what I assume is drain health+immobilize potion

So what is this supposed to imply?

Leap pulls you out of dodge roll, actually watch the vid. Because I was technically rolling i was forced to stand there and take all of the incoming damage. I was also still charged for the roll, putting me at little to no stam.

This is a general issue with hard CCs. If you get feared in the middle of the dodge roll, well, you don't eat ulti damage from that player in the same GCD, but the effect can be just as deadly, since you might eat a bow-proc next. Being CCd while rolling tends to result in an extra GCD being consumed, before you can break free. Call it a bug, call it a feature, it's got nothing specifically to do with Leap. Some players seem to have a knack of exploiting this. Until ZOS fix it, moral of the story is that you have to be circumspect with rolling sometimes.

No the issue I am talking about is an issue with gapclosers that abide by the old rules since zos somehow has not found a way to make them work after 6 years. The vid I posted had nothing to do with stuns or hard cc eating a gcd. I had immunity after breaking free, then was rooted and went to roll dodge, then leap pulled me out of roll and rooted me back to my original location because it abides by the old rules of gap closers. No amount of immobilize immunity saves you. I am pretty sure Leap and Flying blade go through immunity still. I haven't tested escapist poisons in a while, but they used to go through immunity aswell.

fred4

@MincVinyl: Ah! I stand corrected. Didn't look at the video, since I thought I knew what you were talking about.

Nord_Raseri

Leaps generally hit me for 600-3k damage...

SodanTok

eKsDee wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

- not slow me with that multiplicative snare crap to stand still for 3s while DK is in air

If this is to be done, then they need to rework the way the skill is targeted.

Currently, it looks at the location of the target when the skill is cast, and has the player leap to that location, which makes it super easy to dodge/move out of in anything but melee range (this is why the snare is on it, to ensure that the target remains in the AoE and the caster doesn't waste their ult for nothing).

If the snare is to be removed, the skill needs to change so that it instead tracks the target over the entire animation, even when the target is moving or dodging.

Its not foreign concept, all abilities work 2 ways:
- AoE aimed at ground, forcing you to guess target movement
- Targeted hit, following player until it hits

Leap being non spammable ultimate could easily be one or second. Instead of stupid mechanics that make max range lag leaps cause several seconds of standstill even on targets near speed cap.

JayKwellen

fred4 wrote: »

@fred4 Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.

Just wanted to add to this, I fought an (admittedly very good) DK who was using the Wild Hunt ring, likely other speed modifiers as well. It wasn't a 1v1 either, it was my husband and I on a stamden and stamcro v. the StamDK. Dude was a monster.

I'm not entirely sure what the rest of his build was, but he still must have had very appreciable weapon damage because he pumped out tons of damage and his healing was off the charts too. That wasn't the issue though, it was literally just the speed.

Dude was so fast I couldn't even keep up with him on my warden when he decided to run. Of course he wasn't running away either, he was just giving himself some distance to let his vigor tick and reset the fight a bit, and he was so fast there was nothing either of us could do about it. Well, I was able to spam my bugs I guess lol.

Do you know how much more difficult it is to try and land subassault on a guy who can almost instantly move out of its range? How hard it is to land a dizzy when the guy can move behind you and outflank you without even trying? How difficult it is to finish someone when they can so quickly move out of your execution range? Part of it was literally just that it was so completely different than what you'd normally expect from a stamDK that my brain was melting trying to interpret all this new information. Everything I thought I knew about fighting stamDK's was suddenly irrelevant, which by itself put me a huge disadvantage.

In the end we got him, but it was one of the toughest 2v1's I've ever had, and had a couple breaks gone the other way he could of easily tuned the tables on us.

So for sure, people definitely get so caught up in certain playstyles that they either overlook or unfairly discount the different viable options that exist.

fred4

JayKwellen wrote: »

Just wanted to add to this, I fought an (admittedly very good) DK who was using the Wild Hunt ring, likely other speed modifiers as well. It wasn't a 1v1 either, it was my husband and I on a stamden and stamcro v. the StamDK. Dude was a monster.

While I don't play my stam DK much, I am experimenting with Coward's Gear. Running that on the backbar, rather than something like 7th or Clever Alch, is a sacrifice. However in a medium armor build that alone gives you +90% over normal speed when you sprint. Also Major Protection, but my weapon damage took a hit. When you're dealing with % modifiers (Major + Minor Brutality), every time you don't build into that, you take a much larger hit than you might think.

Warden burst is predictable. What I've noticed is that I can sprint through wardens, just as their burst is about to arrive. Speed is a great thing that absolves you from playing with too much foresight. You realise the Shalks are just about to come, you still have time. It feels great. You gain a lot of control. A streaking sorc moves at 15m per second. A character at the speed cap is almost as fast.

MincVinyl

JayKwellen wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

@fred4 Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.

Just wanted to add to this, I fought an (admittedly very good) DK who was using the Wild Hunt ring, likely other speed modifiers as well. It wasn't a 1v1 either, it was my husband and I on a stamden and stamcro v. the StamDK. Dude was a monster.

I'm not entirely sure what the rest of his build was, but he still must have had very appreciable weapon damage because he pumped out tons of damage and his healing was off the charts too. That wasn't the issue though, it was literally just the speed.

Dude was so fast I couldn't even keep up with him on my warden when he decided to run. Of course he wasn't running away either, he was just giving himself some distance to let his vigor tick and reset the fight a bit, and he was so fast there was nothing either of us could do about it. Well, I was able to spam my bugs I guess lol.

Do you know how much more difficult it is to try and land subassault on a guy who can almost instantly move out of its range? How hard it is to land a dizzy when the guy can move behind you and outflank you without even trying? How difficult it is to finish someone when they can so quickly move out of your execution range? Part of it was literally just that it was so completely different than what you'd normally expect from a stamDK that my brain was melting trying to interpret all this new information. Everything I thought I knew about fighting stamDK's was suddenly irrelevant, which by itself put me a huge disadvantage.

In the end we got him, but it was one of the toughest 2v1's I've ever had, and had a couple breaks gone the other way he could of easily tuned the tables on us.

So for sure, people definitely get so caught up in certain playstyles that they either overlook or unfairly discount the different viable options that exist.

The Wild hunt ring is trash except for gathering mats

hunt 15% movement speed (replaces a monster 2 piece or 5 piece set) Lets say you run hundings 5 piece(one of the lowest forms of damage set you can get
=> Hunt 15% == 300wd

Now lets look at 3x swift jewelry
18% movement == 3x infused wd == ~300 wd

This means that swift jewelry is more efficient, and this is giving hunt alot of leeway. In actuality you will end up dropping a proc like fury/clever/kena/EG/balorgh in order to just have 15% hunt so you are losing up to 650-700wd. Where if you just run swift you still only lose 300wd and can still get all of your sets no hassle, which lets you run correct weight setups you want and weapon sets you want.

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movement speed is strong in combat for sure, but you always lower your potential to have it in your kit. On a 1vX build losing 100wd may me the difference in combating the heals of those X amount of players on each other. If someone is fast that just means they gave up something in their build. Or they may only be fast when they are doing an action like with Race against time, they are only mobile when they are continuously casting the ability. If someone ran a build that had 3x swift vs 3x infused wd in an even skilled duel, the 3x infused player would have drastically less issues actually fighting.