Speaking of Overtuned skills: Leap

lucky_Sage

I main a Magdk but leap is the only why for them to kill someone. Magdks have the lowest kill potential out of every other class. My magcro and stanplar I have zero clue on how to play them everyone I fight they just die instantly does not happen with Magdk unless they don’t know how to play

erio

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

erio wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

The only problem with leap is de-sync he causes.

Did you just assume Leap's gender?

SORRY! plz don't ban me

Btw, about that 30k tooltip:
(1 - 10%) hardy *
(1 - 20%) ironclad *
(1 - 25%) major evasion *
(1 - 50%) block *
(1 - 8%) minor protection *
(1 - 10%+) from resistances *
(1 - 15%) from undeath....
= 0.19...

oops forgot battle spirit another 50%.... so yeah, 3k - that is damage which that leap will do if it blocked and 6k if unblocked. Those are realistic numbers which I saw against me on variety of builds. Sometimes it can crit for something like 8k, but DK should be real glass cannon.
So if you blocked it that leap will cause no damage. It causes damage when your screen freezes for 4 seconds and then you see dizzy-leap-execute-execute while on your screen nothing was happening.

If only pvp was that simple

it is that simple. You may say time with off-balance, follow-up after full heavy.. that is all old, off-balance now has cooldown, follow up outdated, because you need to use med-heavy stun if you don't want your leap to be blocked... I don't remember leap higher then 8k against me, probably in last 200 hours spent in PVP. That is crit unblocked from very high WD stamDK.. if you block leap it simply does nothing. Your dot like claw or embers does more pressure then blocked leap. I saw those desperate stamDKs who leap on you hoping that you won't block it and get into unbreakable stun... but you block and it simply does nothing. Nothing. Weaved dizzy with med-heavy is more threat then plainly used leap.

What are you talking about lmao
You seem to be missing the point "So if you blocked it that leap will cause no damage." Literally hard held block today in ic on like 3 dks to test it out and it still stunned me lmao. Also why you factoring in undeath like anyone out here really a vampire.

Urzigurumash

Classes having one overtuned skill that is dissimilar from other classes' overtuned skills promotes diversity. StamDKs that don't rely on Leap are about as common as Templars who don't really on Jabs, etc.

This is equitable and reasonable. It doesn't really matter how much better on paper Wardens or Necros may seem, they don't have Leap, so I don't enjoy playing them as much, even with Dawnbreaker or Onslaught. I expect similarly that any long time Templar would be dissatisfied if Jabs were nerfed to the point where it was perfectly equaled by a non-class skill.

Anyhow I've seen several here mention the knockback effect. To me this is a negative aspect of the skill, I would much prefer the targets remain clustered for further AOE.

eKsDee

People really need to stop looking at skills in a vacuum, and start looking at how they interact with the rest of the class kit. DK, magDK especially, lacks solid burst skills, outside of this ult. This ult is really the only thing that allows DK to close kills reliably, because everything else just sucks due to Zenimax's horrible balancing attempts over the years.

Urzigurumash

I should clarify my statements: " Classes having one overtuned skill that is dissimilar from other classes' overtuned skills promotes diversity. StamDKs that don't rely on Leap are about as common as Templars who don't really on Jabs, etc. "

By diversity there I mean "inter-class" diversity. My second sentence seems to indicate there is little "intra-class" diversity when it comes to StamDKs and Ults, so I'll take the opportunity to again suggest that StamDK Class Identity would be substantially improved if the ability of Corrosive Armor to buff the DOTs of Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw were restored.

Joinovikova

Dracane wrote: »

My problem with Dragon Jump is that it throws you in the air and you can not immediately roll dodge after breaking free to avoid the follow up and neither can you use abilities. Usually no big problem when they are on their own. But Zergs abuse it heavily, for you are helpless for a good amount of time after the leap.

Leap is one of the mightiest ultimates for sure and it annoys me greatly. Yet I think they should just turn the knock up into a stun or knockback and then it's fine.

Something kill me on my imperial physique noob run please nerf it...

Joinovikova

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

Have u try to play DK on this patch??? Leap is strong but wtf Stam DK is now near to bottom even famous Stam DK players now run stamsorc or standen.Because they are much much stronger. it’s sad DK is too slow not only movement but also dmg from dots it’s basically force u to play 6heavy one medium nord With 10% Crit chance so yy u can do crazy crit with leap execute combo but u have 10% to do it.. I personally stop play DK on this patch after years just because all other classes are more fun than this..

Wing

the majority of arguments against the skill are all cries for nerf because of lag or the fact that the servers suck.

"the servers cannot keep up"
"cannot block in lag"
"cannot see the skill"
"die before the leap lands"

join the pvp club.

how many times have you seen a pvp'er die and they are just confused and slack jawed looking at the death recap complaining about desync, lag, skills not going off, potions not going off, attacks going through roll dodge or block, etc.



WELCOME TO ESO PVP



i have played and played against DK's for years, good players know and have no problem dealing with this ult, its a huge animation, with a huge sound effect, and all you have to do is right click and you cut the damage in half.

if you get lept during a stun so you cannot block it, congrats, you just got combo'd on by people that know the game mechanics far better then you.

and yes, anyone can take a screenshot of a PvE tooltip, factor in the tooltip is cut in half immediately, minus another ~30% if your in cp, not even considering any armor.

that and the class itself, DK more then most is stuck deciding between damage, sustain, or tankiness, and has a hard time managing all three, if your going to try and pump your damage for leap your either going to pop before you can even cast it, or die 5 seconds later because your out of resources.


and this ignores classes that have BASE SKILLS like frags, shalks, and blastbones, that do just as much damage and can be fired off constantly.


[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

technohic

Yeah if we are going to nerf ANYTHING because of the game code sucks; start with snipe first. Pretty sure people have figured out how to intentionally desync that ***.

Dracane

Joinovikova wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My problem with Dragon Jump is that it throws you in the air and you can not immediately roll dodge after breaking free to avoid the follow up and neither can you use abilities. Usually no big problem when they are on their own. But Zergs abuse it heavily, for you are helpless for a good amount of time after the leap.

Leap is one of the mightiest ultimates for sure and it annoys me greatly. Yet I think they should just turn the knock up into a stun or knockback and then it's fine.

Something kill me on my imperial physique noob run please nerf it...

Well met, grumpy Sorcereress. Dying should be a lot more familiar to you as it is to me, judging by the last few days? I did not ask for a nerf, just that the CC should be converted into a knockdown or stun to remove this buggy aspect of the stun as well as making it less problematic in pve where it's annoying when DKs disturb pulls like this.

Dracane

Joinovikova wrote: »

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

Have u try to play DK on this patch??? Leap is strong but wtf Stam DK is now near to bottom even famous Stam DK players now run stamsorc or standen.Because they are much much stronger. it’s sad DK is too slow not only movement but also dmg from dots it’s basically force u to play 6heavy one medium nord With 10% Crit chance so yy u can do crazy crit with leap execute combo but u have 10% to do it.. I personally stop play DK on this patch after years just because all other classes are more fun than this..

@Joinovikova
For example the sorcerer you play, with which you survive so nice and with which you are so scary to others? I believe you would be very formidable on your DK instead on this Sorc. All these people playing Sorcerer because they hear it is S Tier, just to get melted in 1 second by a gust of wind.

Joinovikova

Dracane wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My problem with Dragon Jump is that it throws you in the air and you can not immediately roll dodge after breaking free to avoid the follow up and neither can you use abilities. Usually no big problem when they are on their own. But Zergs abuse it heavily, for you are helpless for a good amount of time after the leap.

Leap is one of the mightiest ultimates for sure and it annoys me greatly. Yet I think they should just turn the knock up into a stun or knockback and then it's fine.

Something kill me on my imperial physique noob run please nerf it...

Well met, grumpy Sorcereress. Dying should be a lot more familiar to you as it is to me, judging by the last few days? I did not ask for a nerf, just that the CC should be converted into a knockdown or stun to remove this buggy aspect of the stun as well as making it less problematic in pve where it's annoying when DKs disturb pulls like this.

you basicly ask for nerf .. if you convernt leap to just stun which can be immediately break.. it will successfully destroy last chance for DK to get any kill (i do not count execute steal). have you try to play dk especially stam dk on current patch. without possibiity to leap knock and stun someone and follow by exceute. This class at least for me will be ready for delete for just waste charakter slot..

Joinovikova

Dracane wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

Have u try to play DK on this patch??? Leap is strong but wtf Stam DK is now near to bottom even famous Stam DK players now run stamsorc or standen.Because they are much much stronger. it’s sad DK is too slow not only movement but also dmg from dots it’s basically force u to play 6heavy one medium nord With 10% Crit chance so yy u can do crazy crit with leap execute combo but u have 10% to do it.. I personally stop play DK on this patch after years just because all other classes are more fun than this..

@Joinovikova
For example the sorcerer you play, with which you survive so nice and with which you are so scary to others? I believe you would be very formidable on your DK instead on this Sorc. All these people playing Sorcerer because they hear it is S Tier, just to get melted in 1 second by a gust of wind.

.. someoe play in eso imperial physique zerg and feel strong, of corse I try to run from IP zerg is there any other possibilities..,. unforteneltly stupid eso desing always put some *** which destroy any balance any fun in pvp in to the game (this is main reason why IC play 0,001% polulation outside of event just because there are eso imperial physique noob zergs.. its like basicaly allow hack in game and provide no reason stupid advanagte...but back to topic its sad but affter heal and deff set opitons nerf the best deff and sutain class are sorc an NB... just becauser now best deffence is just aviod to take damage so sorc streak/ball and NB Shadow Image now shine

Dracane

Joinovikova wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My problem with Dragon Jump is that it throws you in the air and you can not immediately roll dodge after breaking free to avoid the follow up and neither can you use abilities. Usually no big problem when they are on their own. But Zergs abuse it heavily, for you are helpless for a good amount of time after the leap.

Leap is one of the mightiest ultimates for sure and it annoys me greatly. Yet I think they should just turn the knock up into a stun or knockback and then it's fine.

Something kill me on my imperial physique noob run please nerf it...

Well met, grumpy Sorcereress. Dying should be a lot more familiar to you as it is to me, judging by the last few days? I did not ask for a nerf, just that the CC should be converted into a knockdown or stun to remove this buggy aspect of the stun as well as making it less problematic in pve where it's annoying when DKs disturb pulls like this.

you basicly ask for nerf .. if you convernt leap to just stun which can be immediately break.. it will successfully destroy last chance for DK to get any kill (i do not count execute steal). have you try to play dk especially stam dk on current patch. without possibiity to leap knock and stun someone and follow by exceute. This class at least for me will be ready for delete for just waste charakter slot..

I only play magicka. I can still imagine from a solo perspective that this is an issue. When we got swarmed by several stamDKs earlier, I told my boyfriend that this class really barely has a kill chance without dragon jump (as I had this very thread here in my head) Yet I must also look at zerging, which is still the most popular playstyle of people.

In which this knock up stun is absolutely toxic and a cheap death sentence for almost everyone without the DK investing any effort of his own. It's not healthy in my opinion.

Dracane

Joinovikova wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

Have u try to play DK on this patch??? Leap is strong but wtf Stam DK is now near to bottom even famous Stam DK players now run stamsorc or standen.Because they are much much stronger. it’s sad DK is too slow not only movement but also dmg from dots it’s basically force u to play 6heavy one medium nord With 10% Crit chance so yy u can do crazy crit with leap execute combo but u have 10% to do it.. I personally stop play DK on this patch after years just because all other classes are more fun than this..

@Joinovikova
For example the sorcerer you play, with which you survive so nice and with which you are so scary to others? I believe you would be very formidable on your DK instead on this Sorc. All these people playing Sorcerer because they hear it is S Tier, just to get melted in 1 second by a gust of wind.

.. someoe play in eso imperial physique zerg and feel strong, of corse I try to run from IP zerg is there any other possibilities..,. unforteneltly stupid eso desing always put some *** which destroy any balance any fun in pvp in to the game (this is main reason why IC play 0,001% polulation outside of event just because there are eso imperial physique noob zergs.. its like basicaly allow hack in game and provide no reason stupid advanagte...but back to topic its sad but affter heal and deff set opitons nerf the best deff and sutain class are sorc an NB... just becauser now best deffence is just aviod to take damage so sorc streak/ball and NB Shadow Image now shine

I do not judge anyone for fleeing. It is a viable and very natural reaction. Too many people whine about people trying to escape. In real life you also would not just stand there and let your death hit you without at least trying to run.

However, we are only 2 people or sometimes 3 during the mayhem. You can always run, but this is not a zerg either. Imperial Physique comes with great risk and every death is expensive. A cost which most people would not even be willing to risk outside of hiding in zergs. Physique does not make you godlike, but gives you a more fair chance against all this zerging that is going on by granting stamina and health to survive an additional hit without you losing too much damage. I justify its use by the sheer abundance of enemies running around everywhere.

I delete Physique users left and right. This set barely makes any difference. In fact, people get arrogant and die even easier than before for believing physique changes a great deal.

WildRaptorX

Getting thrashed by leap (stamina) since greymoor. But I think it’s server lag that causes myself not to break free and for people to use 5 skills at once

Sergykid

on my stamdk i changed from physical leap to the flame leap. The damage loss is insignificant compared to the shield it gives

Ragnarock41

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Classes having one overtuned skill that is dissimilar from other classes' overtuned skills promotes diversity. StamDKs that don't rely on Leap are about as common as Templars who don't really on Jabs, etc.

This is equitable and reasonable. It doesn't really matter how much better on paper Wardens or Necros may seem, they don't have Leap, so I don't enjoy playing them as much, even with Dawnbreaker or Onslaught. I expect similarly that any long time Templar would be dissatisfied if Jabs were nerfed to the point where it was perfectly equaled by a non-class skill.

Anyhow I've seen several here mention the knockback effect. To me this is a negative aspect of the skill, I would much prefer the targets remain clustered for further AOE.

The knock-up is what makes the skill so potent to begin with. Its hard to break free from and makes your targets vulnerable for the time being. Its nothing new for stamDK to use cheesy, hard to break free stuns. (reverb bash, d.swing, fossilize and now leap).

Nerfing leap stun could be good for the health of the overall game because servers can't handle it or whatever but it would be disasterous for the class itself.

Urzigurumash

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The knock-up is what makes the skill so potent to begin with. Its hard to break free from and makes your targets vulnerable for the time being. Its nothing new for stamDK to use cheesy, hard to break free stuns. (reverb bash, d.swing, fossilize and now leap).

Nerfing leap stun could be good for the health of the overall game because servers can't handle it or whatever but it would be disasterous for the class itself.

You might be right, but I didn't mean the stun altogether, just the knock-back. It would be nice to be able to more reliably follow a leap with a conal attack or something and have it hit all of the targets, and might make it a tolerable choice for PvE DDs, but I'm not sure it would ever be preferable to Dawnbreaker / Ballista for them.

MincVinyl

Not much else to say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7aZlwpl3I

Ragnarock41

MincVinyl wrote: »

Not much else to say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7aZlwpl3I

So you have minor vulnerability, major breach, your resistance buff hurricane ran out, couldn't block the leap cause you were already stunned, and then you are hit by what I assume is drain health+immobilize potion

So what is this supposed to imply?

Kittytravel

Joinovikova wrote: »

you basicly ask for nerf .. if you convernt leap to just stun which can be immediately break.. it will successfully destroy last chance for DK to get any kill (i do not count execute steal). have you try to play dk especially stam dk on current patch. without possibiity to leap knock and stun someone and follow by exceute. This class at least for me will be ready for delete for just waste charakter slot..

Out of curiosity; doesn't your entire point just support the OPs statement? That leap is overtuned because ZOS uses it as the "excuse" to not make DKs a better rounded class with better kill potential outside having to use the ult?

Wouldn't you rather they nerf your ult and provide a better kit in exchange rather than keeping an ult that requires it's use just to be competitive in the pvp scene? Makes no difference to me because I avoid pvp when I can as I don't think it's well cared for in this game but just from an outside point of view this would make sense to me as a non-dk player. It's like if someone had offered exchanges in the past trading NB cloak nerfs for a better kit rather than just constantly nerfing NBs pvp potential until they were no longer the "problem child".

Narvuntien

Dks don't have executes the leap is basically thier execute.

Tommy_The_Gun

My primary issue with leap is quite simple:
If I roll-dodge / move FAST out of AOE, I still get hit by it, despite being out of the range, often 1 - 2 seconds before DK lands. It is an obvious lag - desync issue.
Time stop has very similar problem. It feels like AOE is larger than it is marked on the ground - becouse of de-syncs. I am 2 meters away from AOE, and I still get stunned.

I hate calling for nerfs, and imho none of the skills should get nerfed because of terrible server performance.

Ragnarock41

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The knock-up is what makes the skill so potent to begin with. Its hard to break free from and makes your targets vulnerable for the time being. Its nothing new for stamDK to use cheesy, hard to break free stuns. (reverb bash, d.swing, fossilize and now leap).

Nerfing leap stun could be good for the health of the overall game because servers can't handle it or whatever but it would be disasterous for the class itself.

You might be right, but I didn't mean the stun altogether, just the knock-back. It would be nice to be able to more reliably follow a leap with a conal attack or something and have it hit all of the targets, and might make it a tolerable choice for PvE DDs, but I'm not sure it would ever be preferable to Dawnbreaker / Ballista for them.

If a PvE DK is using leap they are doing it wrong regardless of if its a knock-back or a knock-up to be honest. Just like how stonefist is useless in PvP, leap is useless in PvE. Thats just how it is.

MincVinyl

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Not much else to say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7aZlwpl3I

So you have minor vulnerability, major breach, your resistance buff hurricane ran out, couldn't block the leap cause you were already stunned, and then you are hit by what I assume is drain health+immobilize potion

So what is this supposed to imply?

Leap pulls you out of dodge roll, actually watch the vid. Because I was technically rolling i was forced to stand there and take all of the incoming damage. I was also still charged for the roll, putting me at little to no stam. Just because I had debuffs on me does not mean I should be dead idk what you are trying to point out with that. Hurricane was down because it was timed to peak with the fury ult drop. I would have been perfectly fine there to roll and rebuff otherwise.

Fur_like_snow

How can you guy seriously complain about leap when this game has P2W classes like warden and necro running around with a laundry list of buffs/debuffs other classes could only dream of. Because trial groups are stacking DKs with how strong leap is right?

kyle.wilson

Sleep724 wrote: »

In cp pvp it’s almost the only way for DKs to get kills.

And comparing DK damage to NBs and Sorcs? Assassins Will routinely does more damage than leap. And Sorcs can get a free cast frags that gets close in damage to leap and a fire and forget execute. And as said before leap gets its damage reduced by 25% against shuffle/elude users and those 2 sorc and NB abilities do not.

Seriously, try playing a stam dk using something other than dizzying swing and leap to kill anyone.

In group play most of my kills come from destro ult. If I ran leap as my primary ulti skill i'd get kicked from my group.
For solo stam dk I usually use onslaught, but I don't know if any of my dks are still stam based.

Joy_Division

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck - with strong ultis like Sweep and Resto that are cheaper, this statement is misleading
- Gap closer - Who cares? It fits with the name and theme of the class
- Stun - Who cares? In fact I'd rather be stunned by Leap than Fossilize.
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers) - Not accurate as ZOS removed the additional range added in Cyrodiil to stop the "abuse" of leaping into keeps
- AOE - So what.
- Undogeable - Consistent with above.
- Crazy damage - Needed because of the "crazy" power of defensive oriented sets and mechanics
-Instant cast - As it and all ultimates should be
- Animation is visible enough to block - How is this a problem?
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough - This is a server problem. Not a let's ruin the game further problem. The issue here is that every class suffers to the point of quit the game for 6 months because the servers suck. It's not like DKs are afforded a unique advantage.

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

If your problem is Incap - and as I have argued in the past that's a position I share as Incap should have never been changed from its functionality at launch - then your approach to actually improving the game ought to be to make the case that Incap needs reform, instead of making another ultimate garbage.

You can put in CAPS all day how the servers suck, but sucky servers should not be a balance consideration. I havent played this game in 6 months and came back this past week just to see. I can;t count how many times I died because it takes 3 seconds for Hardened Ward to actually fire off in no CP, which people keep insisting works fine. It doesn't work fine. It sucks and all of us on every class die without getting hit with DK Leap because the servers suck. It's not a reason to nerf anything.

Urzigurumash

kyle.wilson wrote: »

For solo stam dk I usually use onslaught, but I don't know if any of my dks are still stam based.

Off-topic, but Onslaught used to be very strong for Solo PvE StamDK back when it restored Ultimate, and was also fun to use in PvP, although inconsistent. As it is now, between the cast time on Onslaught and the Penetration on Balorgh, I have no interest in using Onslaught over Leap in PvP, and probably wouldn't in Solo PvE either.