Speaking of Overtuned skills: Leap

Ragnarock41

Vetixio wrote: »

If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.

I don't think a weak class that relies too much on one signature ultimate is a good design choice. Because thats been whats happening and its killing the class. They made leap more reliable than ever while constantly nerfing everything else about the DK class. Results are obvious.

Ezorus

Vetixio wrote: »

If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.

[snip] If the damage was increase then everything else about better get reduced; double the cost half the range, dodgeable

[Edited to remove Baiting/Rude comment]

fred4

@MincVinyl: I don't even know where to begin. You have the typical blinkered mindset of a meta-player and it honestly grates on my nerves. Your arguments are overzealous.

You can't make blanket statements about the Wild Hunt ring for PvP unless you play all classes. It's use on a DK may be debatable. It's use on a nightblade is a different story. There is arguably a much stronger case for it. Furthermore it's not a question of Swift or Wild Hunt, it can well be a question of Swift and Wild Hunt for some builds. Again, probably not DKs, but still.

Your analysis of what you give up is also faulty. There are plenty of builds that have used a Potentates backbar or something like a Blackrose resto in previous patches. That is typically what you give up, not your monster set. Instead of wearing, say, two damage sets, active on your front bar, you shift to a setup with Clever Alchemist, Seventh Legion, Lich, Trappings of Invigoration or something else like that on the back bar. Do you give up something? Yes. However you typically still wear two full 5-piece sets and a monster set.

I don't deny that you make a trade for movement speed. I do not accept that everyone aspires to be a 1vXer, nor a good dueller on their open world build. Nor do I accept that the trade between speed and, say, Infused weapon damage is all that clear cut. Many situations involve uneven odds and the outcome of a fight will be the same, regardless of how your build is tuned. Those where that is not the case may indeed favor the meta player on average, but speed could be a deciding factor in some fights.

We're getting into what constitutes success in ESO. It could mean your kill / death ratio and 1vX success. It could be campaign objectives. It could simply be playing a fun playstyle. You're assuming that everyone has the same goal. You've also settled on letting players slip away that you might catch with more speed and you're most likely limiting yourself to playing in terrain where LoS opportunities or your group are within reach, when a speedier build would give you more leeway to stray. That may be the most effective playstyle for your purposes, but does not mean it is for everyone.

I can only repeat something I tend to forget myself. This is a game. You don't need to be at the top of the foodchain to enjoy it. You don't need to play 100% effective builds, as long as they're fun to play. If being a successful 1vXer satisfies you, go for it. I agree that growing and being able to play against ever greater odds is an accomplishment and fun. It's not the only thing though. Small-scale isn't the only thing. Some players concern themselves with the Cyrodiil map. I, myself, came from Oblivion and Skyrim. Part of the reason I still log on every day continues to be a small degree of role-playing. When I go into PvP - and I am mainly a PvPer - it can be tinkering with builds. It can be farming Tel Var. It can be finding interesting fights (1vX if possible). It can be helping my campaign. It can be farming geodes once a month. And so on.

On a personal note, yes, I am a fan of speed builds. On templar I find that speed can help you make Jabs stick. I've had people move gingerly just beyond Jabs range, because they were slightly faster than me. The way you're stuck in that channel and want to make all 4 hits count makes the advantage of speed especially obvious. Another case is my current magblade. I used to work with the gap closer in the past, but have substituted Elemental Weapon to help with the opening burst instead. I already played a fast build, but the difference Wild Hunt makes not only to my defense, but to making that opening burst stick on a moving target is palpable, bearing in mind it also involves a melee skill (Soul Harvest). Doesn't mean this is the only way to build or that it's optimal or that the same applies to DK. However a statement such as Wild Hunt is only good for PvE resource farming is quite obviously false.

fred4

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.

I don't think a weak class that relies too much on one signature ultimate is a good design choice. Because thats been whats happening and its killing the class. They made leap more reliable than ever while constantly nerfing everything else about the DK class. Results are obvious.

If it's killing the class, then I don't know for who. Class tier lists typically put stamdens above DK, but I'll tell you what: DK is more fun to play for me. I no longer subscribe to the idea that this game or possibly any MMO should be meticulously balanced according to the needs and input from top players and class representatives and especially not around duelling performance. Those players are IMO not representative of the playerbase as a whole. Warden is a boring class to me. Stam DK is a class I enjoy much moe and that is in no small measure down to the opportunistic nature of Leap, the cool animation and possibly the amount of damage it does, making it effective in the hands of a player not quite top tier, such as myself. I find the rythmic and predictable warden burst boring and cumbersome. Stam DK not being quite at the top is IMO a fair trade for having such a reactive and fun to play ultimate / burst combo. Good for open world. Judging by the amount of DKs I see in the game, the class is far from dead. I don't tend to dwell on what we've lost, such as the reflecting wings. We didn't always have Cauterize. The two DOTs are also pretty OK.

Dracane

fred4 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

If anything leap needs a damage buff it doesn't seem to hit as hard as it used to. The only other problem with it is the dsync and getting cced from it 5 seconds after the animation but that is more of a Cyro problem.

I don't think a weak class that relies too much on one signature ultimate is a good design choice. Because thats been whats happening and its killing the class. They made leap more reliable than ever while constantly nerfing everything else about the DK class. Results are obvious.

If it's killing the class, then I don't know for who. Class tier lists typically put stamdens above DK, but I'll tell you what: DK is more fun to play for me. I no longer subscribe to the idea that this game or possibly any MMO should be meticulously balanced according to the needs and input from top players and class representatives and especially not around duelling performance. Those players are IMO not representative of the playerbase as a whole. Warden is a boring class to me. Stam DK is a class I enjoy much moe and that is in no small measure down to the opportunistic nature of Leap, the cool animation and possibly the amount of damage it does, making it effective in the hands of a player not quite top tier, such as myself. I find the rythmic and predictable warden burst boring and cumbersome. Stam DK not being quite at the top is IMO a fair trade for having such a reactive and fun to play ultimate / burst combo. Good for open world. Judging by the amount of DKs I see in the game, the class is far from dead. I don't tend to dwell on what we've lost, such as the reflecting wings. We didn't always have Cauterize. The two DOTs are also pretty OK.

The majority of recently uploaded Tier Lists to Youtube all listed DK as S-Tier. So definately not below Warden.
Then again, they also list sorcerer as S-Tier. So it is to be questioned how well their perception is. Maybe Tier lists are just opinions? And when I see some of those Youtubers play (how bad they play) I would not give their opinions too much thought.

Toc de Malsvi

Apox wrote: »

it is absolutely blockable and dodgeable. you can even snipe a flying dk out of the air with magnum shot or any other form of knockback and entirely avoid its damage.

This happened to me for the first time a year ago or so. Had never happened before, completely wastes the ultimate.

Toc de Malsvi

Leap is good against players lagging and unable to break CC. Leap is good against players that are bad and not know to block. Leap is good if you can catch players stacked and unaware of you coming.

The only legit complaint is being unable to break free. This is a server issue and won’t ever get fixed. ZOS wants to sell high APM active/reactive gameplay but doesn’t provide the resources to support it.

The easiest option to improve game performance is lower APM, make mitigation less reliant on player input, and reduce calculations. But this changes the nature of the game fundamentally, in a way that most players don’t support or want.

For now to keep the ideal game players want to play, just sit back and whine about ZOS servers. Be happy when the servers are working well, once in a blue moon, and your connection seems great. Try and forget when the servers are dropping packets, and your connection sucks while your opponent is moving like Superman.

MincVinyl

fred4 wrote: »

@MincVinyl: I don't even know where to begin. You have the typical blinkered mindset of a meta-player and it honestly grates on my nerves. Your arguments are overzealous.

You can't make blanket statements about the Wild Hunt ring for PvP unless you play all classes. It's use on a DK may be debatable. It's use on a nightblade is a different story. There is arguably a much stronger case for it. Furthermore it's not a question of Swift or Wild Hunt, it can well be a question of Swift and Wild Hunt for some builds. Again, probably not DKs, but still.

Your analysis of what you give up is also faulty. There are plenty of builds that have used a Potentates backbar or something like a Blackrose resto in previous patches. That is typically what you give up, not your monster set. Instead of wearing, say, two damage sets, active on your front bar, you shift to a setup with Clever Alchemist, Seventh Legion, Lich, Trappings of Invigoration or something else like that on the back bar. Do you give up something? Yes. However you typically still wear two full 5-piece sets and a monster set.

I don't deny that you make a trade for movement speed. I do not accept that everyone aspires to be a 1vXer, nor a good dueller on their open world build. Nor do I accept that the trade between speed and, say, Infused weapon damage is all that clear cut. Many situations involve uneven odds and the outcome of a fight will be the same, regardless of how your build is tuned. Those where that is not the case may indeed favor the meta player on average, but speed could be a deciding factor in some fights.

Hate to derail the thread, but for most applications and for anyone looking to get speed in their solo/group/zerg build I am stating that swift is going to be the most efficient choice. Tbh steed mundus is also a good choice and free to try, but no matter what running a mythic means dropping the monster 2piece, 5 piece set bonus, or a weapon set. Each of these 3 types of sets are near equivalent in trade off for most applications no matter how you look at it. Yes if someone has an already inefficient build, the hunt ring may be technically more efficient than what they already have. No point in trying to argue there, I was just stating what will be lost in an all gold everything build.

kena = 560sd (kena is just an easy example to grab, EG is likely the top choice now...impossible to measure/compare easily)
Alch = 675sd
Perf Master staff = 703sd
hunt = ~300sd
(which 3 do you choose?)

As for one off builds like scroll running, tbh there is no point in talking about these and comparing them to other builds since scroll running builds will almost never see combat. In combat they will likely just have to keep running anyways. If anything the hunt ring and speed sets would just be swapped on to the player before going for the scroll. I dont know anyone who runs only movement speed sets in combat 99.9% of the time, just hoping the stars align for their all speed build to be useful when there is a time scrolls are in play and the player happens to be in the right spot at the right time.

fred4

MincVinyl wrote: »

kena = 560sd (kena is just an easy example to grab, EG is likely the top choice now...impossible to measure/compare easily)
Alch = 675sd
Perf Master staff = 703sd
hunt = ~300sd
(which 3 do you choose?)

None of the above. This is my magblade:

Zaan
Caluurion (front bar)
Skooma Smuggler (back bar)
Wild Hunt or Snow Treaders and all gold Swift either way
Ghastly Eye Bowl, no health to speak of, but fast af, therefore it doesn't matter

It's not all about spell damage. It's not entirely about speed either: I use the Atro mundus due to quirks in how magblade sustain works. Steed is not an option for my build.

You will probably look at this on paper and tell me Skooma is redundant, what with using RAT as well, but don't knock it till you've tried it. On second thought: Don't. A build like mine has entirely different priorities from your DK, so you probably wouldn't appreciate it. It's fundamentally a ganking playstyle, but I try and not limit myself to that. Speed has a large benefit for playing a squishy magblade in melee range. I prefer it over other defenses and it's hugely fun to outmaneuver other players on this build.

I have a friend who plays exactly what you listed above on his magblade. Master Staff and Clever Alchemist, yet he also prefers speed. It's an easy call: No room for Kena. You forget that nightblades are not in combat until they engage. Up until that point, Wild Hunt gives +45% speed, not 15%. Even during a protracted fight, cloaking nightblades tend to drift in and out of combat as far as the game engine is concerned. I can basically run alongside people on their mount in cloak, if they didn't use Rapids, and attack them with a full melee combo, doing more damage than I otherwise would. This isn't quite true. Their mount needs to be just slightly slow or they need to briefly stop, but you get the idea.

Another problem you don't have on your DK is sorcs. Streak is the biggest bane of my existence, because sorcs streak randomly just to get around. If you're playing in the middle of an enemy zerg, that is a problem. The random sorcs uncloak you and the zerg kills you in short order. If you see a sorc, you have to anticipate where they're headed and you have to keep your distance. This is another reason speed tends to be important. You're constantly maneuvering until you pick a target and move in. When there are sorcs in the mix, the distance from which you do this increases.

This is magblade! Perma-cloaking magblade! It's all about the mobility. A stamblade has to juggle different mobility and stealth options, such as sprint, Shadow Image, Cloak and crouch. They can't sustain any one thing (unless maybe Darloc Brae) and they are slow in stealth. This makes them more likely to stake out a particular position. They can be fast outside of cloak, but they don't have the complete invisibility of a perma-cloaking magblade. They have to be more circumspect. Magblade, on the other hand, is about complete freedom of movement, unless I'm actively detected. This is an older clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INHvd2YsOC8

MincVinyl

Right and what I am talking about is why you hit like a wet noodle, even against unbuffed players light attacking with bows from stealth your hits are missing so much damage. Some sources of speed just make you lose too much in other aspects of your build.....trust me, I used to play movement based stamsorc back before summerset hit. Back when dizzy had two aim checks and a direction check. I used to be able to initiate a dizzy, move out of melee range so the other player couldnt hit me, and then move back into range at the end of the dizzy cast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKfXTpCckhY&t=192s

fred4

Interesting clip and

MincVinyl wrote: »

Back when dizzy had two aim checks and a direction check. I used to be able to initiate a dizzy, move out of melee range so the other player couldnt hit me, and then move back into range at the end of the dizzy cast.

very interesting quote. How do you even know stuff like this? I used to think players outplay me by rotation, movement and experience, but nothing so specific as this. Now we're getting somewhere. At the same time I want to despair. I am not so competitive that I necessarily want to concern myself with stuff like this nor am I well-enough connected in-game or on Discord to run across such nuggets of information.

As to my clip, yeah, that fight was easy mode. It was also from a time when I didn't use Zaan, just some sustain and stat pieces. The biggest recent improvement to my burst has come from switching Lotus Fan out for Elemental Weapon, which is partially due to Caluurion now reliably triggering from light attacks. I don't think it did that before. Elemental Weapon -> Soul Harvest -> Fear (Caluurion, buffed by Soul Harvest) is much better burst than what I had in that clip, albeit more difficult to land. This is where the speed helps. The most marked improvements have come from changes in bar layout and playstyle for me.

I know that in many ways building for pure damage is objectively the best. It raises the bar on the number of players you can kill or that you can kill fast enough to enable 1vXing. It also improves your healing. I really dislike just how much the game punishes building for more varied and utilitarian playstyles. At the same time, I am still willing to make that compromise, because I have the most subjective fun on speed-based builds and, more generally, by exploring off-meta builds. Perhaps it's just as well. If everyone built for speed, like I do, that would probably be very annoying. We'd have Summerset again.

Dracane

fred4 wrote: »

Interesting clip and

MincVinyl wrote: »

Back when dizzy had two aim checks and a direction check. I used to be able to initiate a dizzy, move out of melee range so the other player couldnt hit me, and then move back into range at the end of the dizzy cast.

very interesting quote. How do you even know stuff like this? I used to think players outplay me by rotation, movement and experience, but nothing so specific as this. Now we're getting somewhere. At the same time I want to despair. I am not so competitive that I necessarily want to concern myself with stuff like this nor am I well-enough connected in-game or on Discord to run across such nuggets of information.

As to my clip, yeah, that fight was easy mode. It was also from a time when I didn't use Zaan, just some sustain and stat pieces. The biggest recent improvement to my burst has come from switching Lotus Fan out for Elemental Weapon, which is partially due to Caluurion now reliably triggering from light attacks. I don't think it did that before. Elemental Weapon -> Soul Harvest -> Fear (Caluurion, buffed by Soul Harvest) is much better burst than what I had in that clip, albeit more difficult to land. This is where the speed helps. The most marked improvements have come from changes in bar layout and playstyle for me.

I know that in many ways building for pure damage is objectively the best. It raises the bar on the number of players you can kill or that you can kill fast enough to enable 1vXing. It also improves your healing. I really dislike just how much the game punishes building for more varied and utilitarian playstyles. At the same time, I am still willing to make that compromise, because I have the most subjective fun on speed-based builds and, more generally, by exploring off-meta builds. Perhaps it's just as well. If everyone built for speed, like I do, that would probably be very annoying. We'd have Summerset again.

I do not necessarily see it that way. If your damage is so tremendous you can remove pleb groups so fast that sustain and tankiness becomes no problem, then surely.

But survivability, from my experience, usually overshadows damage. In other words; investing into defense and sustain gives more than investing into damage. When you face a player who has sustain and enough survivability, you will likely not just nuke them down. They will outsustain you and win in the end, as it is too easy to avoid or mitigate damage and they can sustain that for minutes. Unlike you.

I always said and still say that tankiness always wins. Being tanky is the key to all victories in pvp unless you are an extreme ganker or bomber. Which is almost exclusive to Nightblades. I do not think any other class gets through with building for pure damage these days. Even plebs that build for survival will give you a harder time than plebs that build for damage but are squishy.

I am afraid of tanky and sustaining targets, not damaging targets. Tankiness is what induces fear into me. I am scared of targets that survive and outsustain me, not targets that might be able to kill me fast.

fred4

To clarify: When I said building for damage, I meant building for stats, which on a stam DK means weapon damage, while merely having adequate sustain and supplementing that with heavy attacks as needed. What you don't tend to have room for is speed, actually nice sustain - what I consider "nice" anyway - and utility. The latter means magicka sustain. I used to run a stam DK with wings, when they were still reflecting, but it was a huge sacrifice, because of the magicka sustain needed to make that worthwhile. Even playing with Fossilize on a stam DK is iffy without some additional magicka sustain. On my current stam DK I threw out all magicka skills except for two buffs. This meant I could do without Hakeijo enchants, boosting my stamina and I indirectly boosted my weapon damage by not having to find the mag sustain needed for some of my earlier builds. Thus I arrived at something close to a meta build. I find it unfortunate this is the only thing that truly works well. The division between stamina and magicka builds creates build variety, but concerns over sustain of the opposite stat also kills build variety, at least on the stamina side.

On nightblades, while it's true that you can forgo tankiness and health, the tradeoff is that both types tend to be demanding on sustain. Speed and sustain are two things that go hand in hand for me. Speed prevents you from being anchored in a particular location, sustain prevents you from being anchored in time. You can play a nightblade with a big stat pool, cloak away when it gets low and cast Meditate, but what kind of a game is that? I've tried it. In the meantime your partner dies to the enemy. Whether I'm alone or with someone, for me it's not a fun playstyle. Above all I want to stay in the fight. I don't want to be stuck at a metaphorical traffic light.

MincVinyl

@fred4

So when i build i try to really really compare efficiencies of different sources. Being a bosmer stamsorc since the beginning of the game kinda forced me to go towards the math side of things to stay relevant. In all honest swapping over to an orc stamcro would probs be easy mode. Most of the things I learned were from playing solely pvp since beta. When it comes to building i try to make sure I only have enough damage to kill the average player. If I try to make a build that can 1v1 an equally skilled opponent it means I am taking away from potential sustain/tankiness that is required in todays ball zerg meta.

Dracane

MincVinyl wrote: »

@fred4

So when i build i try to really really compare efficiencies of different sources. Being a bosmer stamsorc since the beginning of the game kinda forced me to go towards the math side of things to stay relevant. In all honest swapping over to an orc stamcro would probs be easy mode. Most of the things I learned were from playing solely pvp since beta. When it comes to building i try to make sure I only have enough damage to kill the average player. If I try to make a build that can 1v1 an equally skilled opponent it means I am taking away from potential sustain/tankiness that is required in todays ball zerg meta.

I feel this is sadly true. You just have to accept you can not beat everyone and it's better to avoid certain situations or encounters completely and that we are bound to slay fools and mediocre opponents.

MincVinyl

Dracane wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

@fred4

So when i build i try to really really compare efficiencies of different sources. Being a bosmer stamsorc since the beginning of the game kinda forced me to go towards the math side of things to stay relevant. In all honest swapping over to an orc stamcro would probs be easy mode. Most of the things I learned were from playing solely pvp since beta. When it comes to building i try to make sure I only have enough damage to kill the average player. If I try to make a build that can 1v1 an equally skilled opponent it means I am taking away from potential sustain/tankiness that is required in todays ball zerg meta.

I feel this is sadly true. You just have to accept you can not beat everyone and it's better to avoid certain situations or encounters completely and that we are bound to slay fools and mediocre opponents.

Yeah in a way it sucks, but at the same time you will just stalemate against equally skilled players. Id rather stalemate in those situations than just being hopeless when a 15-20 man rounds the corner in IC or chases you in a keep.

Davadin

don't. touch. leap.


period.

Xologamer

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

no, next?

ecru

i blocked most leaps before it was slowed down. literally just block.

Langeston

MincVinyl wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

@fred4 Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.

Just wanted to add to this, I fought an (admittedly very good) DK who was using the Wild Hunt ring, likely other speed modifiers as well. It wasn't a 1v1 either, it was my husband and I on a stamden and stamcro v. the StamDK. Dude was a monster.

I'm not entirely sure what the rest of his build was, but he still must have had very appreciable weapon damage because he pumped out tons of damage and his healing was off the charts too. That wasn't the issue though, it was literally just the speed.

Dude was so fast I couldn't even keep up with him on my warden when he decided to run. Of course he wasn't running away either, he was just giving himself some distance to let his vigor tick and reset the fight a bit, and he was so fast there was nothing either of us could do about it. Well, I was able to spam my bugs I guess lol.

Do you know how much more difficult it is to try and land subassault on a guy who can almost instantly move out of its range? How hard it is to land a dizzy when the guy can move behind you and outflank you without even trying? How difficult it is to finish someone when they can so quickly move out of your execution range? Part of it was literally just that it was so completely different than what you'd normally expect from a stamDK that my brain was melting trying to interpret all this new information. Everything I thought I knew about fighting stamDK's was suddenly irrelevant, which by itself put me a huge disadvantage.

In the end we got him, but it was one of the toughest 2v1's I've ever had, and had a couple breaks gone the other way he could of easily tuned the tables on us.

So for sure, people definitely get so caught up in certain playstyles that they either overlook or unfairly discount the different viable options that exist.

The Wild hunt ring is trash except for gathering mats

hunt 15% movement speed (replaces a monster 2 piece or 5 piece set) Lets say you run hundings 5 piece(one of the lowest forms of damage set you can get
=> Hunt 15% == 300wd

Now lets look at 3x swift jewelry
18% movement == 3x infused wd == ~300 wd

This means that swift jewelry is more efficient, and this is giving hunt alot of leeway. In actuality you will end up dropping a proc like fury/clever/kena/EG/balorgh in order to just have 15% hunt so you are losing up to 650-700wd. Where if you just run swift you still only lose 300wd and can still get all of your sets no hassle, which lets you run correct weight setups you want and weapon sets you want.

---

movement speed is strong in combat for sure, but you always lower your potential to have it in your kit. On a 1vX build losing 100wd may me the difference in combating the heals of those X amount of players on each other. If someone is fast that just means they gave up something in their build. Or they may only be fast when they are doing an action like with Race against time, they are only mobile when they are continuously casting the ability. If someone ran a build that had 3x swift vs 3x infused wd in an even skilled duel, the 3x infused player would have drastically less issues actually fighting.

One exception to this is max mag builds (Necro/Crafty/Domi/Swarm Mother for instance). Wild Hunt only costs you one of the monster pieces (and 2% stats from your Undaunted passive) so all in all, not much of a loss — but if you are replacing 3 Swift with 3 Arcane, you wind up gaining a bit of magicka (and thus a small amount of damage.)

2 arena weapons & 2 Willpower/Agility paired with Wild Hunt can also compare favorably with some solid 5pc sets, depending on your use case.

Purely subjectively: on a light armor Magblade, +15% movement speed feels stronger & more useful to me that the 10% damage reduction from Buffer of the Swift (especially if I'm not running Shade). I stay alive longer, and I find it more fun to play as well.

All of that being said, I'm beginning to have a difficult time justifying not running Malacath. I'm a little annoyed that ZOS has allowed a one piece set to single handedly make crit builds nearly completely non-viable in no CP.

Luckylancer

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

The only problem with leap is de-sync he causes.

Did you just assume Leap's gender?

SORRY! plz don't ban me

Btw, about that 30k tooltip:
(1 - 10%) hardy *
(1 - 20%) ironclad *
(1 - 25%) major evasion *
(1 - 50%) block *
(1 - 8%) minor protection *
(1 - 10%+) from resistances *
(1 - 15%) from undeath....
= 0.19...

oops forgot battle spirit another 50%.... so yeah, 3k - that is damage which that leap will do if it blocked and 6k if unblocked. Those are realistic numbers which I saw against me on variety of builds. Sometimes it can crit for something like 8k, but DK should be real glass cannon.
So if you blocked it that leap will cause no damage. It causes damage when your screen freezes for 4 seconds and then you see dizzy-leap-execute-execute while on your screen nothing was happening.

Battle spirit is not a real damage reduction by its nature. There are many damage reductions but there are a lot of damage increase buffs too. At the end of the day you cant deny huge impact of the leap. If you do, you dont play the game.

I dont ask for leap nerf, it is a fun akill, but other classes should be balanced too without too much homogenisetion.

DRTE

Leave mag dk out of this conversation. Go play a light armor mdk, video it and show me how good it is IN PVP. cmon guys shesh. stam leaps slap hard but as others have said "block" the only time leap really hurts is when you're not paying attention. you wanna pick on a class go pick on stam necro major and minor defile in one skill give me a break.

Atherakhia

Are Stam DKs even top tier anymore? Aren't they well below Stam Necro, Stam Warden, and Stam Templar at this point? Being above Stam Sorc, a class that has like 2 class skills to choose form is hardly an over performing class. Leap alone isn't even that strong. It's easy to block, does fairly moderate damage as far as ultimates are concerned, and the only real advantage it has is its low cost and long range. It was just nerfed a patch or 2 back to make it even easier to block and cost more. Really not sure why it would need attention. Certainly wouldn't need it in a bubble and would need to come with pretty considerable improvements for the class elsewhere as neither the Mag or Stamin (or healer) options for DKs are doing well at the moment.

Firstmep

9 out of 10 times im up in the air before the leap animation even reaches me.
Seems to be worse the closer the dk is.

lucky_Sage

Dracane wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

While the squishy "damage" classes like Nightblade and Sorcerer can't even come close to Dragonknight and Templar DPS. It is flawed design in my opinion.

You know me. You called me "feeble". Against you, that is true. I cannot defend against a well-played magsorc with a detection potion on my magblade main. It is my worst counter. Not templars. Certainly not DKs.

When I'm playing DK myself, I'm not terribly experienced. When I'm playing a shield-stacking sorc, then even less so. I am fumbling like crazy, yet I cannot be killed by most people, unless playing really, really badly. I killed the last magplar I fought in open world, who I know by name and who is a decent player. He was very active. He threw everything at me. I fumbled. I out-tanked him on my magsorc and I eventually killed him without even having Frags slotted, that's how simple I'm keeping it on that character right now.

What you're saying is preposterous. Calling magsorc squishy is preposterous. It is only true in a technical sense. You think you're a good player and you're undeniably very good and experienced in IC, when wearing Imperial Physique, but you don't know what you have.

Contrary to popular opinion, Cloak isn't nearly as broken as people say it is and Streak certainly is not. Those are huge advantages in open world. As others have said, DK doesn't have stacked burst. Leap into execute (on stam) is all they have. Is it a great skill? Yes. Does it need a nerf? IMO, no.

Does DK still feel tanky? In my experience, yes, even on a medium build (with 1H+S backbar). That's only in comparison to squishier classes I play, though, e.g. bearing in mind I main a magblade. Having no inherent mobility nor escape mechanism outside of Leap is a big drawback. It's the reason why the classes that don't have that are tankier.

Yes, you can work around being a slow and tanky class in various ways, yet meta stam DKs don't actually do that. They don't do what I do: Wearing (now) a Coward's Gear back bar. They don't go vampire. They don't slot a gap closer. They don't wear Swift jewelry, because they have to get their damage up with Infused. They're more likely to wear Malacath than Wild Hunt.

When I point out the drawbacks of a slow build to a DK friend, I get the equivalent of a blank stare. He has long accepted his limitations, much as I have accepted what you might call "limited target selection" on my nightblade. This friend, I reckon you know him by name. You saw us together, once, and you immediately streaked a mile. He is a good player. Fair enough. I can tell you, though, that he hates sorcs equally because they streak. He can't keep up and has no good way of dealing with them.

As a magsorc or a nightblade, you don't get beaten. The only way you lose is because you lose. It's on you to judge the situation correctly and disengage before you die. Plenty of fights on open world builds end in a draw, but the way you draw on a nightblade is by disengaging. Sorc arguably has the same option. No generic skill compares to how well Cloak and Streak work. That is balance! It is not flawed design! If you get beaten by a good (stam) DK on those two classes, it's ultimately because you chose to stay near them a little too long.

The way I play magsorc, it is squishy. Only 1 shield and no pets. I still anticipate shield stacking to be removed one day, which would reveal how squishy this class is.

Magsorcs explode like no other class when we fight them. We make fun of that "S-Tier" class every day. All those fools playing it just to get deleted left and right.
None of them can take more than 2 hits unless they are sword and board shield stackers. This is a light armor problem more than it is a Sorcerer problem. Although Sorcerer is the only class with no damage mitigation in its kit to reduce damage taken in light armor. Light armor gives no buffs to shields or healing, so they all explode unless they are a nightblade with 4 arrow stacks or one of the tank classes.

It is true there is potential, yet you can not judge the survivability of classes only by having 4 arrow stacks or having 2 shields stacked with a fully defensive setup. Use detection against nightblades and use gapclosers against Sorcerers and their only edge crumbles. Attack their mobility and they have nothing. Sorcerer and Nightblades are the easiest classes to counter by far.

There are means to remove their defensive tactic as well as completely negating almost all their attacks. In my opinion, both classes are the absolute bottom tier of pvp and I am judging exlusively by the enemies I encounter, not by my own experiences. Nothing is as easily deleted as a magsorc and nightblade. Only very few decent ones can take a bit more. As a DK with wings, a warden with shimmering shield or generally a class with high mititgation, you would have to be braindead to die against a single Sorc or Nightblade.

Though I will say, generally you are correct with what you say. It is true, yet not quite as one sided.

Wings is utter garbage now no dk uses them anymore. Only tanky thing non ult dks have is 10% more block which only real use is a purma blocking build which means can’t kill and as above wings is useless

maddiniiLuna

They took the CC from the Warden's Ultimate, because it was too strong, but left it on the DK. Makes perfect sense.

Ragnarock41

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

They took the CC from the Warden's Ultimate, because it was too strong, but left it on the DK. Makes perfect sense.

Ah yes because leap snares and maims enemies for 812 seconds while giving nearby allies major protection. Totally unreasonable that those poor wardens are treated like that. Wow I feel really bad for you guys, having to deal with such a bad hand. Must be horrible that your support class with all the tools to carry a team to victory doesn't come with DK's 1v1 potential. Completely unreasonable.

Edit: Its actually 12 seconds lmao

DUTCH_REAPER

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]

[Edited for bait]

Miloscpolski

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

Zos gave a slowdown to this ult. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

MincVinyl

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

Except for the part where leap is a HARD CC and still does a SOFT CC snare/root through all forms of immunity due to the gap closer portion abiding by the old rules still. [Snip]

[Edited for removed content]