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ESO direly need a central auction house ...
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still want to know how much money the guild-trader-boycotting people expect to get for their garbage level 30 overland set pieces and a stack of lockpicks.
Probably about 27g. Because it's worthless to anyone but an NPC vendor.
Why would someone spend 5k on an item that they'll outlevel after 6 more hours of playing time, tops?
And let me just come back to this:CreamedPieYum wrote: »I shouldn’t have to visit 10 vendors to buy LOCKPICKS
Wut.
How does anyone ever run out of freaking lockpicks? I find at least 20 lockpicks for every chest I have to open. All of my characters have a stack, and I'm destroying multiple stacks of lockpicks a week just to save inventory space.
I assumed everyone else was doing the same thing, so I never tried to sell them.
Are there really a lot of people out there who are so bad at the lockpicking system that they're constantly short on lockpicks?
It's probably not just selling their overland set pieces for good money that's the issue for them. It's being able to buy them.
Since newer players are likely not going to belong to trade guilds - there probably isn't a lot of lower level gear coming into the market. Though as you said, you level up so fast on this game I"m not sure it would sell even if there was.
I see people listing single items for 45 or 55 in major trade hub stores - they would need to sell about 3000 of such items within a week to get to a sales value equal to a 5k weekly fee. So they have 30 slots and would need to use them a hundred times each to get to these sales numbers - so what are these people doing in a major trade hub guild anyway?0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.
In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.
The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.
Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.
Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.
As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.
Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.
How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.
I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.
The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.
And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^
If you say so. . . . .
I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. If you have paid attention to central markets in MMORPGs as you claim then you would know this.
Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.
The guild trader system has already underwent massive changes
Not really. The only change that can be considered massive is that Zos added the traders in the PvE areas whereas they were only in Cyrodiil keeps at launch. Beyond that, there have been tweaks.
Again, the system has been proven to work well even if some want a system that they find simpler to use. Zos has no reason to make such a massive overhaul as is being suggested in this thread. Especially since players are not going to leave a game they actually enjoy because of the trading system.Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.
In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.
The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.
Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.
Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.
As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.
Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.
How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.
I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.
The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.
And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^
If you say so. . . . .
I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. [snip]
Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.
In respect to your comment about market manipulation - the only way someone with "deep pockets" could effectively inflate the prices of a large mega-server wide auction house would be if he or she sat there buying every item put up for sale all day every day - otherwise prices would stabilize as soon as they stopped buying. So good luck with that, they are going to need it. Odds are they are just going to end up with considerably less deep pockets. But if you would like to tell me on what game with a global auction house this actually happens I'm all ears, or eyes I guess.
This idea generally that a single hub somehow makes a market easier to manipulate is a false one. It's the size of the market and the amount of people participating in it that makes a market more resistant to manipulation - not how many hubs a person has to navigate to use one. And I never remember the developers suggesting inflation was a concern when they opted for a guild store approach rather a global auction house. It was always deflation I saw mentioned.
You seem to underestimate how effective bots perform. They are programs and can and do work all day. Suggesting it is false when bots can work faster and more effective any a hoard of players does not make sense. Especially when these gold farmers have larger pools of gold than most players. After all, they are the ones selling gold to players.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 29, 2020 12:04PM3 -
VoxAdActa✭✭✭✭✭
I see people listing single items for 45 or 55 in major trade hub stores - they would need to sell about 3000 of such items within a week to get to a sales value equal to a 5k weekly fee. So they have 30 slots and would need to use them a hundred times each to get to these sales numbers - so what are these people doing in a major trade hub guild anyway?
To be faaaaaair....
Sometimes, at the end of a long adventuring day, I just don't feel like digging through my craft bag to find the best stuff to put into the three or four trader slots that sold while I was out kicking goblins. I might pitch in a couple of green patterns that I looted and charge 50 or 60 gold for them. Or a low-level overland item with a trait on it that's only valuable for research. So I can see why low-price stuff ends up in a major trader.
It's the traders I find out in the wildnerness where an "all items" search results in a single page of grease, amethyst, and some level 20 green food items (not even the recipes, just the food!) that baffle me. If those guys can get a trader, literally anyone can. Anyone who can't get a trader is obviously not participating in the economy to even that dubious level.2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I see people listing single items for 45 or 55 in major trade hub stores - they would need to sell about 3000 of such items within a week to get to a sales value equal to a 5k weekly fee. So they have 30 slots and would need to use them a hundred times each to get to these sales numbers - so what are these people doing in a major trade hub guild anyway?
To be faaaaaair....
Sometimes, at the end of a long adventuring day, I just don't feel like digging through my craft bag to find the best stuff to put into the three or four trader slots that sold while I was out kicking goblins. I might pitch in a couple of green patterns that I looted and charge 50 or 60 gold for them. Or a low-level overland item with a trait on it that's only valuable for research. So I can see why low-price stuff ends up in a major trader.
It's the traders I find out in the wildnerness where an "all items" search results in a single page of grease, amethyst, and some level 20 green food items (not even the recipes, just the food!) that baffle me. If those guys can get a trader, literally anyone can. Anyone who can't get a trader is obviously not participating in the economy to even that dubious level.
well the all items search is flawed - it doesn't show all the items in the shop, if you try to see all the items offered - that is why you see just those few items and not all what the shop has to offer - unfortunately.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's probably not just selling their overland set pieces for good money that's the issue for them. It's being able to buy them.
Since newer players are likely not going to belong to trade guilds - there probably isn't a lot of lower level gear coming into the market. Though as you said, you level up so fast on this game I"m not sure it would sell even if there was.
I mean, when I was leveling my main before I could craft stuff, I was occasionally annoyed that I couldn't finish out an overland set that I wanted without having to grind a delve for the gloves, or whatever. But that's such a niche circumstance: a complete newbie with no crafting, no alts, and no crafters in their guild looking to finish out a set for the zone they're currently adventuring in and wearing whatever drops because they've outleveled their stuff from the last zone.
How long would someone's CP50 Epaulets of the Withered Hand have sat in the guild trader before I came along? Especially since it wasn't important enough to stop questing and check the big spots like Elden Root or Mournhold?
The "let everyone trade" AH-supporters are going to be extra salty that all their hard work in getting ZOS to implement a no-effort trading system still doesn't make them millionaires. They're blaming the Shadowy Cabal of The Trade Guild Illuminati rather than the fact they don't really have anything anyone else wants to buy.
It may seem like a niche circumstance to players like you and me who have been playing for years and have other characters to craft for us. But for new players just starting the game I imagine it at least seems like a more serious problem.
I would be curious to see some statistics on how many players quit ESO early on due to the way this game's economy works. Because I suspect it might be a lot higher than some here expect. But in any case: I do agree with you that adding a global auction house would not suddenly make those people millionaires. The market for low level gear would likely remain small even under a global auction house system. But it would gain some life I think.Edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2020 6:26PM6 -
codierussell✭✭✭✭I am waiting for the day when I sign into the forums and don't see a new thread on auction houses. News flash, ZOS has stated many times this will not be implemented so can we stop the complaining about it? If you hate the game that much for the trading feature than play a different game?2
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm all for a system which helps real newbies - I said this a couple of times in different threads already - and it could be easily implemented as well, if general merchants would pay real certified newbies an average market value for their stuff - and this stuff not listed but deleted after the general merchant bought them - this doesn't have to interfere with guilds at all.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.
In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.
The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.
Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.
Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.
As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.
Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.
How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.
I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.
The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.
And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^
If you say so. . . . .
I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. [snip]
Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.
The guild trader system has already underwent massive changes
Not really. The only change that can be considered massive is that Zos added the traders in the PvE areas whereas they were only in Cyrodiil keeps at launch. Beyond that, there have been tweaks.
Again, the system has been proven to work well even if some want a system that they find simpler to use. Zos has no reason to make such a massive overhaul as is being suggested in this thread. Especially since players are not going to leave a game they actually enjoy because of the trading system.Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.
In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.
The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.
Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.
Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.
As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.
Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.
How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.
I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.
The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.
And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^
If you say so. . . . .
I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. [snip]
Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.
In respect to your comment about market manipulation - the only way someone with "deep pockets" could effectively inflate the prices of a large mega-server wide auction house would be if he or she sat there buying every item put up for sale all day every day - otherwise prices would stabilize as soon as they stopped buying. So good luck with that, they are going to need it. Odds are they are just going to end up with considerably less deep pockets. But if you would like to tell me on what game with a global auction house this actually happens I'm all ears, or eyes I guess.
This idea generally that a single hub somehow makes a market easier to manipulate is a false one. It's the size of the market and the amount of people participating in it that makes a market more resistant to manipulation - not how many hubs a person has to navigate to use one. And I never remember the developers suggesting inflation was a concern when they opted for a guild store approach rather a global auction house. It was always deflation I saw mentioned.
You seem to underestimate how effective bots perform. They are programs and can and do work all day. Suggesting it is false when bots can work faster and more effective any a hoard of players does not make sense. Especially when these gold farmers have larger pools of gold than most players. After all, they are the ones selling gold to players.
I was not referring to "bots" in that comment. I was referring to "people with deep pockets".
Bots are just programs and/or scripts. And any program or script that was set up to constantly buy up everything that was put up on the auction house would draw attention to itself and risk being caught.
The last thing a "bot" wants is to be out in public view. That increases their likelihood of being caught, and what you are suggesting they do makes that basically assured. Which is why I've never seen it done - and probably why you can't tell me a game where it's being done.
And the guild trade system has changed dramatically over the years. I can't take your argument seriously if you are going to suggest otherwise. And no one uses the guild trader system anyway. They use the Tamriel Trade Centre (or others like it) - which is basically just a global auction house simulator as I said. So the game has already basically adopted a global auction house model that everyone accepts. So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already basically been embraced by the population through the use of third party resources like i said - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they either don't know about or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 29, 2020 12:06PM1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade hasn't happened - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.Edited by Lysette on June 28, 2020 6:44PM3 -
VoxAdActa✭✭✭✭✭The last thing a "bot" wants is to be out in public view.
Those thirty toons with random-character names standing in a circle spamming light attack towards wildlife out at the friendly-bear town on Auridon the other night seem to disagree with you.
I've only reported them three or four times, so they clearly aren't visible enough.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.Edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2020 6:43PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The last thing a "bot" wants is to be out in public view.
Those thirty toons with random-character names standing in a circle spamming light attack towards wildlife out at the friendly-bear town on Auridon the other night seem to disagree with you.
I've only reported them three or four times, so they clearly aren't visible enough.
Every obvious bot I have reported on this game has been dealt with.
So we've had different experiences is all I know to tell you.
I"m sure there are plenty of bots running around right now. But if you report them - ZoS will deal with them in my experience. You should have seen what this game looked like when it first came out if you think bots are bad now. lol
So they have been busy trust me.Edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2020 6:48PM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.Edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2020 6:52PM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.
If I would do that I might not sell anything - a price has to be adapted to the location where I'm selling it - and that price might be higher or lower as the market average. I can set my prices at any value I want, there is no correct or incorrect, just the actual trade will make it have value - before those are just listed offers which mean nothing - a list of actual trades, like one can see them on the guild panel, that are correct prices of actually happened trades - listed prices are just wishful prices.Edited by Lysette on June 28, 2020 7:03PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.
If I would do that I might not sell anything - a price has to be adapted to the location where I'm selling it - and that price might be higher or lower as the market average. I can set my prices at any value I want, there is no correct or incorrect, just the actual trade will make it have value - before those are just listed offers which mean nothing - a list of actual trades, like one can see them in on the guild panel, that are correct prices of actually happened trades - listed prices are just wishful prices.
Yes, you can sell or buy your items at what ever price you want. If you want to purchase and sell your items at prices that bear no relationship to the market average then you go for it. As I've told you twice now - when I used the word "correctly" I meant that only to mean a price that was competitive with the market average. So I don't know why you are still trying to have this pointless argument about whether or not your trades are "correct" or "incorrect". I've already abandoned that terminology to suit you.
And guild traders are not islands unto themselves. The economy on ESO has already been largely centralized by third party resources like Tamriel Trade Centre etc. So for example: if you put an item up for a price that is far under the market average odds are someone is going to locate that item - buy it - then "flip" it and sell it back for a greater profit. So you're really just ripping yourself off at this point regardless of what location you're supposedly "adapting" to.Edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2020 7:12PM1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.
If I would do that I might not sell anything - a price has to be adapted to the location where I'm selling it - and that price might be higher or lower as the market average. I can set my prices at any value I want, there is no correct or incorrect, just the actual trade will make it have value - before those are just listed offers which mean nothing - a list of actual trades, like one can see them in on the guild panel, that are correct prices of actually happened trades - listed prices are just wishful prices.
Yes, you can sell or buy your items at what ever price you want. If you want to purchase and sell your items at prices that bear no relationship to the market average then you go for it. As I've told you twice now - when I used the word "correctly" I meant that only to mean a price that was competitive with the market average. So I don't know why you are still trying to have this pointless argument about whether or not your trades are "correct" or "incorrect".
And guild traders are not islands unto them self. The economy on ESO has already been largely centralized by third party resources like Tamriel Trade Centre etc. So for example: if you put an item up for a price that is far under the market average odds are someone is going to locate that item - buy it - then "flip" it and sell it back for a greater profit. So you're really just ripping yourself off at that point regardless of what "location" you're in.
We both have a totally incompatible view on this - if I sold my stuff, I got what I was wanting for it - I didn't got ripped off by the customer even if he sells it somewhere else at a higher price - we made a trade - I offered something and he bought it, what he does afterwards with it, is his problem not mine - I got what I wanted for my item and wasn't ripped off.
The same is true, if he buys it at a significantly higher price than average - if he buys it, he agrees that this price is correct for him in this moment and in this location, it is not my problem if he regrets it later or not - and he might just not, because it saved him time.Edited by Lysette on June 28, 2020 7:15PM3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.
If I would do that I might not sell anything - a price has to be adapted to the location where I'm selling it - and that price might be higher or lower as the market average. I can set my prices at any value I want, there is no correct or incorrect, just the actual trade will make it have value - before those are just listed offers which mean nothing - a list of actual trades, like one can see them in on the guild panel, that are correct prices of actually happened trades - listed prices are just wishful prices.
Yes, you can sell or buy your items at what ever price you want. If you want to purchase and sell your items at prices that bear no relationship to the market average then you go for it. As I've told you twice now - when I used the word "correctly" I meant that only to mean a price that was competitive with the market average. So I don't know why you are still trying to have this pointless argument about whether or not your trades are "correct" or "incorrect".
And guild traders are not islands unto them self. The economy on ESO has already been largely centralized by third party resources like Tamriel Trade Centre etc. So for example: if you put an item up for a price that is far under the market average odds are someone is going to locate that item - buy it - then "flip" it and sell it back for a greater profit. So you're really just ripping yourself off at that point regardless of what "location" you're in.
We both have a totally incompatible view on this - if I sold my stuff, I got what I was wanting for it - I didn't got ripped off by the customer even if he sells it somewhere else at a higher price - we made a trade - I offered something and he bought it, what he does afterwards with it, is his problem not mine - I got what I wanted for my item and wasn't ripped off.
Well I suppose if you knowingly sold your item far under market value and wouldn't prefer it any other way then you may be right - and perhaps you aren't being "ripped off".
But for players who are only selling their goods far under market value because they don't know any better and unaware of third party tools that would help them to set their price more competitively I would maintain those players are getting ripped off.
Edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2020 7:27PM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.
If I would do that I might not sell anything - a price has to be adapted to the location where I'm selling it - and that price might be higher or lower as the market average. I can set my prices at any value I want, there is no correct or incorrect, just the actual trade will make it have value - before those are just listed offers which mean nothing - a list of actual trades, like one can see them in on the guild panel, that are correct prices of actually happened trades - listed prices are just wishful prices.
Yes, you can sell or buy your items at what ever price you want. If you want to purchase and sell your items at prices that bear no relationship to the market average then you go for it. As I've told you twice now - when I used the word "correctly" I meant that only to mean a price that was competitive with the market average. So I don't know why you are still trying to have this pointless argument about whether or not your trades are "correct" or "incorrect".
And guild traders are not islands unto them self. The economy on ESO has already been largely centralized by third party resources like Tamriel Trade Centre etc. So for example: if you put an item up for a price that is far under the market average odds are someone is going to locate that item - buy it - then "flip" it and sell it back for a greater profit. So you're really just ripping yourself off at that point regardless of what "location" you're in.
The same is true, if he buys it at a significantly higher price than average - if he buys it, he agrees that this price is correct for him in this moment and in this location, it is not my problem if he regrets it later or not - and he might just not, because it saved him time.
Maybe not. But that player deserves access to comparative tools that would help him make an informed purchase. That's one (of many) problems I have with a system like this that relies so heavily on third party programs for information about the market average. Newer players who don't know about these tools are more likely to pay too much (or sell for too little) and a lot of more experienced players are getting rich off that. It's just not a situation I find particularly fair.Edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2020 7:39PM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.
In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.
The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.
Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.
Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.
As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.
Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.
How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.
I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.
The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.
And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^
If you say so. . . . .
I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. [snip]
Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.
The guild trader system has already underwent massive changes
Not really. The only change that can be considered massive is that Zos added the traders in the PvE areas whereas they were only in Cyrodiil keeps at launch. Beyond that, there have been tweaks.
Again, the system has been proven to work well even if some want a system that they find simpler to use. Zos has no reason to make such a massive overhaul as is being suggested in this thread. Especially since players are not going to leave a game they actually enjoy because of the trading system.Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.
In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.
The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.
Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.
Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.
As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.
Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.
How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.
I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.
The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.
And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^
If you say so. . . . .
I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. [snip]
Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.
In respect to your comment about market manipulation - the only way someone with "deep pockets" could effectively inflate the prices of a large mega-server wide auction house would be if he or she sat there buying every item put up for sale all day every day - otherwise prices would stabilize as soon as they stopped buying. So good luck with that, they are going to need it. Odds are they are just going to end up with considerably less deep pockets. But if you would like to tell me on what game with a global auction house this actually happens I'm all ears, or eyes I guess.
This idea generally that a single hub somehow makes a market easier to manipulate is a false one. It's the size of the market and the amount of people participating in it that makes a market more resistant to manipulation - not how many hubs a person has to navigate to use one. And I never remember the developers suggesting inflation was a concern when they opted for a guild store approach rather a global auction house. It was always deflation I saw mentioned.
You seem to underestimate how effective bots perform. They are programs and can and do work all day. Suggesting it is false when bots can work faster and more effective any a hoard of players does not make sense. Especially when these gold farmers have larger pools of gold than most players. After all, they are the ones selling gold to players.
I was not referring to "bots" in that comment. I was referring to "people with deep pockets".
Bots are just programs and/or scripts. And any program or script that was set up to constantly buy up everything that was put up on the auction house would draw attention to itself and risk being caught.
The last thing a "bot" wants is to be out in public view. That increases their likelihood of being caught, and what you are suggesting they do makes that basically assured. Which is why I've never seen it done - and probably why you can't tell me a game where it's being done.
And the guild trade system has changed dramatically over the years. I can't take your argument seriously if you are going to suggest otherwise. And no one uses the guild trader system anyway. They use the Tamriel Trade Centre (or others like it) - which is basically just a global auction house simulator as I said. So the game has already basically adopted a global auction house model that everyone accepts. So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already basically been embraced by the population through the use of third party resources like i said - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they either don't know about or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
You suggest you cannot take my comment seriously when I state the fact the guild trader system has not undergone any major changes since Zos added traders to the PvE zones yet your only example is not a change made to the actual guild trader system but merely an addon.
Which means my statement you quoted holds up a solid fact. Thank you.
And even before the addon you mentioned, the guild trader system handled the trading of millions of gold each day. It works well and players are not going to leave ESO because they do not like the trading system. Zos has nothing to worry about.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 29, 2020 12:07PM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.
If I would do that I might not sell anything - a price has to be adapted to the location where I'm selling it - and that price might be higher or lower as the market average. I can set my prices at any value I want, there is no correct or incorrect, just the actual trade will make it have value - before those are just listed offers which mean nothing - a list of actual trades, like one can see them in on the guild panel, that are correct prices of actually happened trades - listed prices are just wishful prices.
Yes, you can sell or buy your items at what ever price you want. If you want to purchase and sell your items at prices that bear no relationship to the market average then you go for it. As I've told you twice now - when I used the word "correctly" I meant that only to mean a price that was competitive with the market average. So I don't know why you are still trying to have this pointless argument about whether or not your trades are "correct" or "incorrect".
And guild traders are not islands unto them self. The economy on ESO has already been largely centralized by third party resources like Tamriel Trade Centre etc. So for example: if you put an item up for a price that is far under the market average odds are someone is going to locate that item - buy it - then "flip" it and sell it back for a greater profit. So you're really just ripping yourself off at that point regardless of what "location" you're in.
We both have a totally incompatible view on this - if I sold my stuff, I got what I was wanting for it - I didn't got ripped off by the customer even if he sells it somewhere else at a higher price - we made a trade - I offered something and he bought it, what he does afterwards with it, is his problem not mine - I got what I wanted for my item and wasn't ripped off.
Well I suppose if you knowingly sold your item far under market value and wouldn't prefer it any other way then you may be right - and perhaps you aren't being "ripped off".
But for players who are only selling their goods far under market value because they don't know any better and unaware of third party tools that would help them to set their price more competitively I would maintain those players are getting ripped off.
Players always choose what they want to sell items for. Some choose prices to high and they just sit there. Others choose very low prices and the items move fast.
Heck, even with a central trading system players will undercut listed prices to sell items fast. Not sure how this is relevant to this topic.Edited by idk on June 28, 2020 8:00PM1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I suspect most of the resistance to a global auction house on this game - which has already been basically embraced by the population through the use of third party resources - is from "Market flippers" who make money off those who incorrectly price items because they don't either don't know or don't use these tools. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because otherwise you would see more push back against these addons and internet sites.
now this just blows my mind - there is no correct price for items - it has the price at which the trade is happening and that can be different at any time or location - listed prices mean nothing, they are offers not actual trades - there is no correct price for as long as the trade is happening - and it is just correct in the moment of the trade - in a different place and/or a different time the price can be different - this notion of a correct price at all times is just wrong.
When I say "correct" price what I mean is a competitive price on par with the market average.
There is no reason for it to blow your mind.
the thing is a price isn't incorrect even it is not competitive - if someone takes the offer and buys it, it is a correct trade at a correct price - offer made, offer accepted - price doesn't have to be competitive at all.
I've already explained to you what I meant when I said priced correctly. So there is no need to pursue this.
What I meant when I said that is an item that is competitively priced on par with the market average. So just pretend like I never used the words correct or incorrect if you have a problem with those words.
If I would do that I might not sell anything - a price has to be adapted to the location where I'm selling it - and that price might be higher or lower as the market average. I can set my prices at any value I want, there is no correct or incorrect, just the actual trade will make it have value - before those are just listed offers which mean nothing - a list of actual trades, like one can see them in on the guild panel, that are correct prices of actually happened trades - listed prices are just wishful prices.
Yes, you can sell or buy your items at what ever price you want. If you want to purchase and sell your items at prices that bear no relationship to the market average then you go for it. As I've told you twice now - when I used the word "correctly" I meant that only to mean a price that was competitive with the market average. So I don't know why you are still trying to have this pointless argument about whether or not your trades are "correct" or "incorrect".
And guild traders are not islands unto them self. The economy on ESO has already been largely centralized by third party resources like Tamriel Trade Centre etc. So for example: if you put an item up for a price that is far under the market average odds are someone is going to locate that item - buy it - then "flip" it and sell it back for a greater profit. So you're really just ripping yourself off at that point regardless of what "location" you're in.
The same is true, if he buys it at a significantly higher price than average - if he buys it, he agrees that this price is correct for him in this moment and in this location, it is not my problem if he regrets it later or not - and he might just not, because it saved him time.
Maybe not. But that player deserves access to comparative tools that would help him make an informed purchase. That's one (of many) problems I have with a system like this that relies so heavily on third party programs for information about the market average. Newer players who don't know about these tools are more likely to pay too much (or sell for too little) and a lot of more experienced players are getting rich off that. It's just not a situation I find particularly fair.
But you just don't find that fair because you think like that - I have sold motifs for example well under what they might be worth, but I'm not bothered by it - they sold fast and gave me the quick money injection I wanted and I don't feel ripped off - to me those had no value at all because I'm not using them and before I was in a trading guild I gave them away for free even.
I have as well no problem with other people getting rich - I don't know why this is bothering you. And if people are willing to pay more for an item, well let them do that - it is like buying apex mounts from ZOS, why is that not bothering you as well.
With heavily overpriced items I tell you an example from EVE - I sell in remote locations mobile tractor units at about 2-5 times the average market value. My typical customers in that location buy 4 of those and might pay 30-50 million more than those cost at a "competitive" price - but they are still happy - because saving those 50 million would take them an hour to the trade hub and back again until they could continue with their normal activity. My customers make about 250 million per hour, if they can just do what they are doing best - they happily pay those 50 million more, because that saves them the travel and they can make 200 million win instead to waste an hour on saving 50 million. So all are happy with these prices.Edited by Lysette on June 28, 2020 10:03PM3 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.
In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.
The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.
Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.
Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it. So I can certainly understand why market flippers or those who support the practice would be defending the current system, believe you me.
As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.
For some item flipping is their end game. They spend as much time working to become the best at trading as guilds spend trying to get on trial leader boards. Yes the current system allows flipping of items but it doesn't allow market flipping. Market flipping would be controlling the price on some items across the entire economy. Not possible with traders. They can flip items but can't control the market.
With a central system it becomes easier to control rare items and manipulate the price across the entire market for that item instead of just taking advantage of finding a few bargains and reselling. Item flipping and market flipping are not the same thing.
What you described is item flipping and it is a fun part of the game for a lot of people.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."4 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭Look, I just want something like TTC but inside the game. It doesn't have to show whether it SELLS at that price like MM does, just that it's currently listed at the price and is located at such and such city.
Plenty of people use TTC, including sellers, so it would be helpful to all I think.
People keep their guild traders, you still have to go to the location of the guild trader in order to buy the item (so it's not an auction house), but you can just look it up in game instead of having to rely on add-ons.
I just think it would be a little more fair to the console players.
Plus, easier for me as a seller to look up what other people are listing their stuff for so I can price my own stuff accordingly.1 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭codierussell wrote: »I am waiting for the day when I sign into the forums and don't see a new thread on auction houses. News flash, ZOS has stated many times this will not be implemented so can we stop the complaining about it? If you hate the game that much for the trading feature than play a different game?
Hi @codierussell how do you feel about them implementing a new auction house since you took the time to come to the forums and click on the link that says "central auction house" and post in it?
I for one think they'd be pretty nice but there would have to be severe anti-botting measures for the PC crowd so that it would not be taken advantage of. Other MMOs seem to have them without a collapsed economy but how do you feel in particular?
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fastolfv_ESO✭✭✭✭✭thank god we dont have a global auction house, i like having items with value and with a list of 10k everything at everyones finger tips even mild competition would drive the value of any item to 02 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭fastolfv_ESO wrote: »thank god we dont have a global auction house, i like having items with value and with a list of 10k everything at everyones finger tips even mild competition would drive the value of any item to 0
It is one of the reasons I like it as well. It was one of the reasons Zos stated they were using a decentralized/social trading system. Even on PC with TTC it does not have the heavy downward pressure that a central trading system has.3 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.
If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they
Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.
With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).
What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).
These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"
The current system enables "market flippers". game.
I mean it is easier for 1 guy with 1 billion gold to sit in a central trader, list all Tempering Alloy by lowest price and Buy, Buy, Buy, Buy, Buy.......
Than it is for a guy to check each vendor, travel zone then check all these, Yes they "Can" do it, and Have done it (one guy bought Every Tempering Alloy in a 12 Hour period, let the market panic and price gouge for a while then dumped everything for a profit.
At least disparate locations of traders gives a window where you can strike lucky on a bargain that others have missed or have not reached, but on a central trader it would be gone in a micro second.
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This discussion has been closed.