ESO direly need a central auction house ...

aenax · June 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Why would zos willingly want to ruin a core function of guilds? If anything I would think they would want to incentivize joining guilds even more if they could.

It won t ruin them because of the penalty (not massive but high enough) associated to any transaction made directly.

kargen27 · June 2020

"If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they speak about price transparency and the need to have no barrier to trade. When in the 18 century trade barrier, monopolies and custom were removed in my country "starvation" vanished since food could get properly allocated. Off course free market theory is irenic and we all know that most western economies were destroyed by globalization but we shall not discuss that here."

The economy in ESO is healthy and vibrant. There is no run away inflation and no monopolies manipulating the market. The current system works very well in controlling the economy. There could be some quality of life changes made but overall the system is good.

LuxLunae · June 2020

There are two things that will make me quit...

Things like hundings rage getting nerfed...
and the addition of a centralized auction house....

That will be the destruction of the game....

xaraan · June 2020

Don't want to see a central trader or auction house myself. The current system removes a ton of gold from the market to fight inflation, as in hundreds of millions of gold a week. Gold would be worth a tiny fraction of what it is now if not for that.

It would also change the market drastically making some prices tank and other items not even be offered or worth offering. The market as it is creates some interesting things with pricing and finding deals or being able to price things better or worse depending on guild trader spots, etc. All that would be lost and undercutters would rule the market driving prices into the gutters. If all you do is buy and not sell, then I can see why you'd like that, but we'd still have the inflation problem.

Eifleber · June 2020

Lysette wrote: »

the forum will be flooded with the whining threads about bots playing the market and that vital items are priced much too high or are not available

But why would you think so? It definitely isn't a problem in WoW or GW2, which also have central AHs.

In EVE you have local "shops" but a central search engine. Works fine as well?
It's a difference if you can BUY from a central point - or only FIND stuff (and still have to go there).

I mean: are you against TTC?
What's so different if it was an in-game function?
*

colossalvoids · June 2020

So any proposals from OP about guild system then or to why half the big and active guilds should be literally disbanded to benefit new a player by giving ability to sell (or just list tbh) valuable iron ore or tincture of health?

ZaroktheImmortal · June 2020

Lysette wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

How did I know the trade guildies would jump all over this post out of fear if it happens it'd threaten their profits? Same as the one who was posting in forums wanting to ban people for posting

I'll tell you why I jump on it - because I think, that [snip] to pay a small fee to participate and make some real coin - and just because they are [snip], they want to destroy the fun others have with this trading system - not going to happen.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

No the reason you jump on it is out of fear. Fear that they'll change it and you won't be able to profit when all players are on equal footing to you.

ZaroktheImmortal · June 2020

Lysette wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

How did I know the trade guildies would jump all over this post out of fear if it happens it'd threaten their profits? Same as the one who was posting in forums wanting to ban people for posting

They needn't worry mate, the one thing games company's never do is admit a core system they have put into a game is rubbish, the current frustrating system is here to stay.

Be Safe

Well the people going oh it's a dead horse it'll never change you should just shut up and not say anything about such thing which is the real dead horse the trade guildies beating on any post about an auction house as if they were afraid of it happening. Well they said we wouldn't get dragons and the same arguments were used 'ZOS has said this and that' oh and vampire lord form people said it about that. And a lot of other things they said. I think really it could happen and I think that's what they're afraid of that if enough people keep asking for it they'll eventually do it.

And then the forum will be flooded with the whining threads about bots playing the market and that vital items are priced much too high or are not available - there will always be complains and whining about the market. Let's see then how much fun that is to buy something really needed at 5 or 10 times the price .- let bots rule the market then.

No they won't. Funny how you trade guildies like to go on a doom sayer rant as if it were the end of the world. But it just proves the point that you lot are afraid of losing your profit margin. That's why you jump on these posts.

ZaroktheImmortal · June 2020

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Why would zos willingly want to ruin a core function of guilds? If anything I would think they would want to incentivize joining guilds even more if they could.

The core function of guilds is socialization and combining of resources to achieve a common goal.

Trading does not need to be a part of that if there are enough other opportunities for guilds to do the two above things.

I would be okay with adding more opportunities as long as there were still viable alternatives for non-guild players. For instance, I don't need to be in a trial guild to run trials. I don't need to be in a PVP guild to run PVP groups.

I shouldn't need to be in a trader guild (50+ members) to sell my stuff in a vendor.

This exactly. I'd rather be able to just trade stuff off and not worry if a guild has a trader or not to be able to trade. I'd rather have guilds that focus on the social and content related stuff without worry of having to get traders. Also as this points out it kind of makes it hard for smaller guilds to grow as people will be more likely to join ones with a trader.

Ri_Khan · June 2020

Hurbster wrote: »

I have my suspicions that due to the lag in opening just a guild bank sometimes, a centralised Auction House would kill the hamster that runs the servers stone dead.

This is most likely the biggest issue with all the systems of the game that're floundering. The little hero engine that could was cobbed together years ago, it can barely handle what's been added to the game thus far and with only a moderate-size population playing.

ZaroktheImmortal · June 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

the forum will be flooded with the whining threads about bots playing the market and that vital items are priced much too high or are not available

But why would you think so? It definitely isn't a problem in WoW or GW2, which also have central AHs.

In EVE you have local "shops" but a central search engine. Works fine as well?
It's a difference if you can BUY from a central point - or only FIND stuff (and still have to go there).

I mean: are you against TTC?
What's so different if it was an in-game function?
*

Exactly. It works fine for other MMOS. I've seen other mmos and it's not all doom and gloom that the doomsayer trade guildies want us to think it'd be. It comes down to people being afraid of losing out on profit if others can sell the same items without joining their trade guilds. The same reason a trade guildie was recently posting on the forums wanting to ban people advertising trades in zone chat. Because they want to limit the competition. It's the same thing we see in the real world with greed. When it comes down to it this isn't about them actually believing an auction house would ruin the economy. It's that they're worried of having more competition to selling items and losing out on their own profit. So they try to convince people that the economy will crumble if this happens. It's almost like watching real life rich people trying to convince others that they have their best interest at heart all the while screwing them over. Funny how greed in the real world isn't any different here.

aenax · June 2020

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

the forum will be flooded with the whining threads about bots playing the market and that vital items are priced much too high or are not available

But why would you think so? It definitely isn't a problem in WoW or GW2, which also have central AHs.

In EVE you have local "shops" but a central search engine. Works fine as well?
It's a difference if you can BUY from a central point - or only FIND stuff (and still have to go there).

I mean: are you against TTC?
What's so different if it was an in-game function?
*

Exactly. It works fine for other MMOS. I've seen other mmos and it's not all doom and gloom that the doomsayer trade guildies want us to think it'd be. It comes down to people being afraid of losing out on profit if others can sell the same items without joining their trade guilds. The same reason a trade guildie was recently posting on the forums wanting to ban people advertising trades in zone chat. Because they want to limit the competition. It's the same thing we see in the real world with greed. When it comes down to it this isn't about them actually believing an auction house would ruin the economy. It's that they're worried of having more competition to selling items and losing out on their own profit. So they try to convince people that the economy will crumble if this happens. It's almost like watching real life rich people trying to convince others that they have their best interest at heart all the while screwing them over. Funny how greed in the real world isn't any different here.

That is my feeling too ....

As a new player i could neither buy neither sell anything till i joined a guild with a trader and till i learned about Tamriel Trade Center.

Try to find lvl 30 gear ... the only thing that sell is cp 160.

Now i m richer (300 000 for many this is peanuts) and i can craft decent gear for newbies (100+ skill in trade) but that start was rough.

With a proper trade system, leveling gear with training traits will sell like candy and < cp 160 sets too and you will find rice or " small game" in small quantities (not 1000) at affordable prices. I actually had to go and hunt rabiit for like 1 hours when i was like 20.

redgreensunset · June 2020

aenax wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

the forum will be flooded with the whining threads about bots playing the market and that vital items are priced much too high or are not available

But why would you think so? It definitely isn't a problem in WoW or GW2, which also have central AHs.

In EVE you have local "shops" but a central search engine. Works fine as well?
It's a difference if you can BUY from a central point - or only FIND stuff (and still have to go there).

I mean: are you against TTC?
What's so different if it was an in-game function?
*

Exactly. It works fine for other MMOS. I've seen other mmos and it's not all doom and gloom that the doomsayer trade guildies want us to think it'd be. It comes down to people being afraid of losing out on profit if others can sell the same items without joining their trade guilds. The same reason a trade guildie was recently posting on the forums wanting to ban people advertising trades in zone chat. Because they want to limit the competition. It's the same thing we see in the real world with greed. When it comes down to it this isn't about them actually believing an auction house would ruin the economy. It's that they're worried of having more competition to selling items and losing out on their own profit. So they try to convince people that the economy will crumble if this happens. It's almost like watching real life rich people trying to convince others that they have their best interest at heart all the while screwing them over. Funny how greed in the real world isn't any different here.

That is my feeling too ....

As a new player i could neither buy neither sell anything till i joined a guild with a trader and till i learned about Tamriel Trade Center.

Try to find lvl 30 gear ... the only thing that sell is cp 160.

Now i m richer (300 000 for many this is peanuts) and i can craft decent gear for newbies (100+ skill in trade) but that start was rough.

With a proper trade system, leveling gear with training traits will sell like candy and < cp 160 sets too and you will find rice or " small game" in small quantities (not 1000) at affordable prices. I actually had to go and hunt rabiit for like 1 hours when i was like 20.

Everyone can buy if they have the gold, simple as that. And even with an auction house you probably wouldn't find any level 3 gear for sale, because buying it would still be pointless as you'd have outlevelled it in an hour. So still no one would sell it as there'd still be no profit in it.

illutian · June 2020

Don't need an auction system if all you do is vendor the gear.

Lapin_Logic · June 2020

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

UGotBenched91 · June 2020

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they speak about price transparency and the need to have no barrier to trade. When in the 18 century trade barrier, monopolies and custom were removed in my country "starvation" vanished since food could get properly allocated. Off course free market theory is irenic and we all know that most western economies were destroyed by globalization but we shall not discuss that here.

Currently Tamriel Trade center offers some sort of global view of the prices, but it generates unwanted flow of data toward a 3rd party entity, on top prices are often outdated and indeed guild manage to cheat to system in order to adertise with fake price (a bit like many supermarket).

Another add on (master merchant) generate huge number of requests to scan all the trade done and provide player with a price history. Again we get unwanted data flows.

Technically those overheads may be negligible (compare to the data flow of the regular gameplay), but it raise security issues for the game company, and it forces player to rely on 3rd party entities.

So a central broker would be way better.

Now i understand that we do have Traders and Trading guilds, and since it is part of the game we should find a way to keep this aspect of the game rewarding.

So here my proposal

- Add a central broker (it may be in any bank or only in capital etc... it does not matter).
- Buying from the central broker is costly since it adds a fee, as example 20%, people can still visit the trader and only pay the guild fee.
- Allow any player to sell directly (say from its capital bank), again this come with a fee, say 20% again.

So we get

Buy directly from guild trader, fee = guild fee
Buy from the central broker form a guild trader, fee= guild fee +20%
Buy from an individual player , directly (going the the target bank) : fee =20%
Buy from an individual player but from the central broker : fee = 20% +20% =40%.

This way trading guilds will remain meaningful and traders will be able to still make a lot of profit.

Next one may thing that a central broker will make market manipulations too easy. But first let us remark that manipulations and arbitrage are going on currently. But if one is afraid of that it is possible to mitigate them but adding a hard or soft penalty to account doing to many transactions. The hard version is to limit the amount of transaction and account does over a period , the soft version is about adding a growing penalty fee to account doing lot of transactions (with a decay).

Ps : i took 20% as fee, since it must be significant (otherwise traders and trading guilds will be sorry), but it should be to much of a deterrent.

I get why people like the current system but you make valid points. It is quite annoying I need to seek 3rd party resources to find items I want to purchase in the game.

Ingenon · June 2020

All I want is something like The Dwemer Automaton average price information made available by ZOS on consoles, so I don't sell stuff for way below average, and buy stuff for way above average. Have ZOS update the data during the time slot that their data shows that the specific megaserver is least busy. Bonus points for showing both average list price and average sell price.

Kwik1 · June 2020

I wonder how people would vote if they had the option of a central auction house or staying with the current system?

Obviously this is TOS's game and they make all decisions and have no need to vote, but having said that, I am curious as to how people in game would lean?

Personally I would vote for a central market place in a heart beat as I feel the current system is only saved by TTC.

Anotherone773 · June 2020

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

How did I know the trade guildies would jump all over this post out of fear if it happens it'd threaten their profits? Same as the one who was posting in forums wanting to ban people for posting

I'll tell you why I jump on it - because I think, that [snip] to pay a small fee to participate and make some real coin - and just because they are [snip], they want to destroy the fun others have with this trading system - not going to happen.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

No the reason you jump on it is out of fear. Fear that they'll change it and you won't be able to profit when all players are on equal footing to you.

You think that those of us that profit off trading are like some evil corporation that is trying to swindle you out of your money and if we had to compete in a central place with the entire server than we could no longer take advantage of you.

The problem is, and ive experienced this as a trader in many games and quit those games because of it, a central AH allows for extreme cutthroating by random players who just throw something up for any ol price " because i need to get rid of this stuff". Then another rando throws his stuff up and another and another. each one lower than the next. Some of these Einsteins sell items for less than what you can get for vendoring them.

Decentralized traders insulate me, as a trader, from peoples stupidity on the market. I may on occasion have to deal with this but its not bad enough that trading is no longer worth my time. Unlike the common player, traders do not just spend their day going about their business and what ever loot happens to drop we sell what we dont need. If we did that, you would have a hard time finding the stuff you need and it would be very high priced. We farm items. We spend hours a week grinding out the same content to get desirable items to market. If i am not compensated for grinding content, i am not going to grind it which means im not going to be posting 50 plus items per day on guild traders

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

How did I know the trade guildies would jump all over this post out of fear if it happens it'd threaten their profits? Same as the one who was posting in forums wanting to ban people for posting

They needn't worry mate, the one thing games company's never do is admit a core system they have put into a game is rubbish, the current frustrating system is here to stay.

Be Safe

Well the people going oh it's a dead horse it'll never change you should just shut up and not say anything about such thing which is the real dead horse the trade guildies beating on any post about an auction house as if they were afraid of it happening. Well they said we wouldn't get dragons and the same arguments were used 'ZOS has said this and that' oh and vampire lord form people said it about that. And a lot of other things they said. I think really it could happen and I think that's what they're afraid of that if enough people keep asking for it they'll eventually do it.

And then the forum will be flooded with the whining threads about bots playing the market and that vital items are priced much too high or are not available - there will always be complains and whining about the market. Let's see then how much fun that is to buy something really needed at 5 or 10 times the price .- let bots rule the market then.

No they won't. Funny how you trade guildies like to go on a doom sayer rant as if it were the end of the world. But it just proves the point that you lot are afraid of losing your profit margin. That's why you jump on these posts.

There actually isnt as much profit in trading as you think there is. The big profit items either require a lot of time to acquire or a lot of luck. Unless you spend your time and money trying to manipulate the market, you farm hoping for the best items and sell whatever you can get while chasing those big paydays to make it somewhat worth your time. For example ive spend HOURS and HOURS grinding western skyrim for furnishing prints. Ive got maybe a dozen green, half a dozen blue and exactly 1 purple. BUT ive gotten a few dozen other furnishing prints and recipes. I will vendor the more worthless ones and use the others to supplement my income between the bigger paydays. I could make just as much money fencing items and doing daily writs on my characters TBH but that is to repetitious to me, so i choose this method of income .

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Why would zos willingly want to ruin a core function of guilds? If anything I would think they would want to incentivize joining guilds even more if they could.

The core function of guilds is socialization and combining of resources to achieve a common goal.

Trading does not need to be a part of that if there are enough other opportunities for guilds to do the two above things.

I would be okay with adding more opportunities as long as there were still viable alternatives for non-guild players. For instance, I don't need to be in a trial guild to run trials. I don't need to be in a PVP guild to run PVP groups.

I shouldn't need to be in a trader guild (50+ members) to sell my stuff in a vendor.

This exactly. I'd rather be able to just trade stuff off and not worry if a guild has a trader or not to be able to trade. I'd rather have guilds that focus on the social and content related stuff without worry of having to get traders. Also as this points out it kind of makes it hard for smaller guilds to grow as people will be more likely to join ones with a trader.

But this option would lead to a centralized system. Unless each trader had an individual amount of slots and each person bid on a slot individually. But then you no longer have the benefit of collective bargaining of a trade guild and only the wealthiest players would ever get a good spot.

On another note i am not against a central search function that uses the features of TTC and MM. I am against standing at one NPC and being able to manipulate the market for the entire game. The current system stops this because individuals that want to try to manipulate the market have to spend a lot of time on load screens and locating the items in each trader. This takes away their ability to easily manipulate an item and helps keep the market healthy.

Jeremy · June 2020

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.

In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.

The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.

idk · June 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.

In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.

The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.

Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.

Jeremy · June 2020

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.

In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.

The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.

Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.

Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it. So I can certainly understand why market flippers or those who support the practice would be defending the current system, believe you me.

As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.

idk · June 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.

In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.

The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.

Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.

Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.

As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.

Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.

How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.

Jeremy · June 2020

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.

In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.

The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.

Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.

Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.

As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.

Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.

How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.

I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.

The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.

And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^ Let someone try it on a guild store and see how long they last. I give them a day or two max before they are caught.

Gold Sellers get their money by operating sweat shops of video game "farmers" - not by using bots to manipulate central auction houses. Many of them use bots to farm with I'm sure - but those are harder to identity than a bot who was hoarding everything put up for sale would be.

Lysette · June 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

the forum will be flooded with the whining threads about bots playing the market and that vital items are priced much too high or are not available

But why would you think so? It definitely isn't a problem in WoW or GW2, which also have central AHs.

In EVE you have local "shops" but a central search engine. Works fine as well?
It's a difference if you can BUY from a central point - or only FIND stuff (and still have to go there).

I mean: are you against TTC?
What's so different if it was an in-game function?
*

I'm not against TTC, I'm just not using it - but I certainly use evemarketer.com in EVE - because there is no teleport and I have to consider logistics and transport risks involved as well. ESO has wayshrines and stuff is delivered by mail, there is neither effort required to organize transport operations nor anything of what is involved in EVE.

idk · June 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.

In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.

The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.

Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.

Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.

As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.

Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.

How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.

I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.

The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.

And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^

If you say so. . . . .

I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. [snip]

Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Jeremy · June 2020

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one, Eq1 started without and so people were selling in a famous tunnel but a broker was added after 1-2 years.

If you wonder why we need one just watch Yale online course about free market, they

Thing with a central house is it makes it easier for market flippers to Vacuum the low cost items and mark them up.

With more small stores tou have many options to find the lowest price (add ons have less raw data and more disparate figures).

What ESO needs is More vendors, a way that multiple guilds are selectable from 1 vendor (say 10 guilds per trader), a Bid Cap on securing a vendor or a way for Every guild to sell to public (1 NPC called "The trader" that you can browse every guild that has at least 100 items for sale).

These measures would remove the current practice of only the wealthiest guilds being able to trade or guilds constantly passing the begging bowl for "Donations" or "Minimum sale requirements"

The current system enables "market flippers". Unless you refer to third party resources as a guide it's difficult to know what the average price for an item is. Many players (especially newer ones) end up selling their items beneath market value as a result. So players can run around and target those items then sell them back for significant profit. I know players who make their living on ESO doing this. In short: the current system is a market flipper's dream come true.

In a centralized and free market with a visible price history - the only way for a player to effectively "flip" the market to their advantage would be to monopolize the supply and then artificially raise prices. That would be difficult to pull off - especially long term - which is why I've rarely seen it done.

The only time I've ever seen central auction houses manipulated like that on a MMO was when packs of gold sellers could dominate spawn points for monsters that dropped rare items players had no other way to obtain. And that's not something I can see happening on this game.

Market flippers are not a bad thing by any means. The person who sells the item initially makes bank and the person who flips it makes bank. Market flipping is much more desirable than bot manipulation. Central ACs are very well suited for bot manipulation and the speed that they can operate is significantly more effective and efficient than any of us could come close to.

Whether you believe market flippers are a bad thing or not is beside the point. I was responding to a poster who seemed to believe the current system prevented market flippers when it actuality it only encourages and rewards it.

As far as bots "manipulating" a central auction house - those would be very easy to detect.

Of course, they would be easy to detect just as bots performing other activities are so easy to detect. The fact is they run rampant through MMORPGs and they constantly improve o working around new methods to detect them.

How do we know this is a fact, well, how do you think the gold sellers get all that gold, to begin with? Crown Gifting also boosted that gold selling market by the way. So it is simple to suggest it is easy to detect bot activity but that does not reflect reality.

I've never seen bots manipulating a central auction house and I've been playing MMOs for decades. So I"m not sure what games you have been playing where they are running "rampant" on but all I can say is they must have inept developers who simply don't care about cheating running rampant on their games. And if that is the case, then their auction house is probably the least of their problems.

The reason the developers of this game opted not to have a centralized auction house has nothing to do with bots or market flipping or any kind of possible manipulations. They were concerned that the "mega server" would lead to mega deflation. All of these arguments about bots, market flippers and manipulating are misplaced and really have no relevant association with a centralized auction house, at least not one that is competently designed and run.

And yes - anyone who attempted to buy up the market with bots would be easy to detect. That is the reality. ^^

If you say so. . . . .

I also never said the developers of this game designed the current system because of bots. However, you are wrong about the market manipulation statement. One of the reasons they specifically stated for a guild based system was the effect on the price that having everything in one place could have. Granted they commented on how the price of more common items are driven down to worthlessness because everyone keeps posting their items below the previous one. That also works in reverse when given someone with deep pockets can simply purchase all the devalued items and repost them for more. [snip]

Regardless, the guild trading system is here to stay. It is what Zos wanted and it has been proven to work well. Zos knows players will not leave the game because of the trading system so they have no reason to change it.

The guild trader system has already underwent massive changes and basically functions as a makeshift centralized auction house as of now when you take into account third party sites like Tamriel Trade Centre, which most seasoned players already use. So to suggest their guild trading system is "here to stay" and there is no reason to change it is dubious at best considering it's been in a constant state of change since its inception.

The only difference really with the current guild trader system supported by third party resources and a centralized auction house is that newer players who do not yet know about these sites fall through the cracks and players make money off that. Or you have casual players who are disinterested in joining guilds for what ever reason and are prevented from being able to effectively participate in the economy. Neither of those differences I would describe as particularly profound or essential to the game. In fact: I believe them to be the game's detriment.

In respect to your comment about market manipulation - the only way someone with "deep pockets" could effectively inflate the prices of a large mega-server wide auction house would be if he or she sat there buying every item put up for sale all day every day - otherwise prices would stabilize as soon as they stopped buying. So good luck with that, they are going to need it. Odds are they are just going to end up with considerably less deep pockets. But if you would like to tell me on what game with a global auction house this actually happens I'm all ears, or eyes I guess.

This idea generally that a single hub somehow makes a market easier to manipulate is a false one. It's the size of the market and the amount of people participating in it that makes a market more resistant to manipulation - not how many hubs a person has to navigate to use one. And I never remember the developers suggesting inflation was a concern when they opted for a guild store approach rather a global auction house. It was always deflation I saw mentioned.

VoxAdActa · June 2020

I still want to know how much money the guild-trader-boycotting people expect to get for their garbage level 30 overland set pieces and a stack of lockpicks.

Probably about 27g. Because it's worthless to anyone but an NPC vendor.

Why would someone spend 5k on an item that they'll outlevel after 6 more hours of playing time, tops?

And let me just come back to this:

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

I shouldn’t have to visit 10 vendors to buy LOCKPICKS

Wut.

How does anyone ever run out of freaking lockpicks? I find at least 20 lockpicks for every chest I have to open. All of my characters have a stack, and I'm destroying multiple stacks of lockpicks a week just to save inventory space.

I assumed everyone else was doing the same thing, so I never tried to sell them.

Are there really a lot of people out there who are so bad at the lockpicking system that they're constantly short on lockpicks?

Jeremy · June 2020

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I still want to know how much money the guild-trader-boycotting people expect to get for their garbage level 30 overland set pieces and a stack of lockpicks.

Probably about 27g. Because it's worthless to anyone but an NPC vendor.

Why would someone spend 5k on an item that they'll outlevel after 6 more hours of playing time, tops?

And let me just come back to this:

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

I shouldn’t have to visit 10 vendors to buy LOCKPICKS

Wut.

How does anyone ever run out of freaking lockpicks? I find at least 20 lockpicks for every chest I have to open. All of my characters have a stack, and I'm destroying multiple stacks of lockpicks a week just to save inventory space.

I assumed everyone else was doing the same thing, so I never tried to sell them.

Are there really a lot of people out there who are so bad at the lockpicking system that they're constantly short on lockpicks?

It's probably not just selling their overland set pieces for good money that's the issue for them. It's being able to buy them.

Since newer players are likely not going to belong to trade guilds - there probably isn't a lot of lower level gear coming into the market. Though as you said, you level up so fast on this game I"m not sure it would sell even if there was.

VoxAdActa · June 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

It's probably not just selling their overland set pieces for good money that's the issue for them. It's being able to buy them.

Since newer players are likely not going to belong to trade guilds - there probably isn't a lot of lower level gear coming into the market. Though as you said, you level up so fast on this game I"m not sure it would sell even if there was.

I mean, when I was leveling my main before I could craft stuff, I was occasionally annoyed that I couldn't finish out an overland set that I wanted without having to grind a delve for the gloves, or whatever. But that's such a niche circumstance: a complete newbie with no crafting, no alts, and no crafters in their guild looking to finish out a set for the zone they're currently adventuring in and wearing whatever drops because they've outleveled their stuff from the last zone.

How long would someone's CP50 Epaulets of the Withered Hand have sat in the guild trader before I came along? Especially since it wasn't important enough to stop questing and check the big spots like Elden Root or Mournhold?

The "let everyone trade" AH-supporters are going to be extra salty that all their hard work in getting ZOS to implement a no-effort trading system still doesn't make them millionaires. They're blaming the Shadowy Cabal of The Trade Guild Illuminati rather than the fact they don't really have anything anyone else wants to buy.