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this game is pretty insulting to your time
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Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭long time ago in another dimension...
there was no speed research scrolls at all
and it took 6+ month to get a 9 trait crafter
but now when you have a CHOISE you are not happy...ok5 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think a good compromise for horse training would be to have the speed/stamina/carry work like a skill line and after you've leveled a category all the way on any character you can buy it fully leveled on an alt for say 1K crowns. Zos still gets to make cash but it's much more reasonable than the current cost of 1K crowns for a measly 10 lessons in one category.
Besides that though I completely agree that too much of the game is designed to be a time sink, forcing players to do mundane tasks to level/maintain characters. For example it pretty much takes twice as long to farm ingredients for potions as it does to then use all those potions once you start actually playing dungeons or PvP.0 -
Hippie4927✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MrDenimChicken wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Yeeeaaaaahhh.... research was the same massive timesink, long before there even were research scrolls. It takes so long because this is an MMO (yay, timesinks!), and because 'mastering' crafting generally/should take a lot of time. Not because they want to twist your arm for Crowns (as mentioned, that came much later.)
It probably wasn't designed that way to twist your arm for crowns in the beginning, but it was designed to keep people playing longer through a timegate mechanic. Now they took that timegate mechanic and monetized it.
Wrong! They didn't monetize the timegate mechanic. That mechanic is still free. They monetized the speeding-up of that timegate for people who don't have the patience to wait.
I assume, if you are putting together this great build, that you are at least CP160. You had plenty of time to research traits.PC/NA/EP ✌️3 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seriously you set the stuff to research and carry on playing the game, not like its making you sit around and do nothing while the research is happening.
Make sure you have the crafting passives that reduce research time other than that 10 days is still on the lower end of the research times for traits, with the passives it caps at about 30 days from memory anywhere up to 58 days without the passives been a long time since I finished all that.
If you want crafted gear right away either ask in zone or guild chat for a nine trait crafter, supply the mats and a tip and they will make your items for you in a few minutes.
Plenty of players don't ever bother with crafting at all and make do with finding a crafter to make what they need for them.
You could have completely ignored the trait research times focused on getting the necessary mats and got your crafted build made for you at any time you wanted.1 -
PrimusNephilim✭✭✭✭✭MrDenimChicken wrote: »Got excited that I "thought" I would be able to finish a build today. It was a hard week of work for me, but hey I get to play one of my favorite games today.
Got everything I needed, finally, and was off to craft the last piece to my set
lo and behold! I need to research 2 more traits!
Turns out, the research takes 10 days and 19 hours each. DANG! But wait! I have some "research scrolls". I check my inventory, and I have 8...hey at least that takes the sting out of it a little bit! Oh no, not so fast! You can only use a scroll once every 20 hours. OR you can just go to the crown store and buy some that have no cooldown!
[snip] It's hard not to take it personally that the developers of a video game want to squeeze you into buying more crap for real money, and the way they do it is to force some ridiculous timer mechanics that are an obscene amount of time.
I thought this Sunday would be a fun day I get to play with a new build I've been working at for a while. Instead I'm reminded how corporate America wants to just keep squeezing people until their eyes burst out and dollars come out.
Really?? sorry for you but this has zero to do with corporate America. I, along with many other were able to completed all levels of crafting, so pull up your bootstraps and git busy. It'll happen as l long as you stick with it.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 23, 2020 4:32PM2 -
Destai✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Darkenarlol wrote: »long time ago in another dimension...
there was no speed research scrolls at all
and it took 6+ month to get a 9 trait crafter
but now when you have a CHOISE you are not happy...ok
Wait or spend money. That's not a choice, that's manipulation. A choice would be to spend gold on it. This entire game is built around nudging people to spend money more and more.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MrDenimChicken wrote: »MrDenimChicken wrote: »lo and behold! I need to research 2 more traits!
I feel for ya, but I have to ask...
Shouldn't you have known from the beginning you would need more traits?
I start alts all the time and I always know before I start what set I want to have for a specific toon whether it is crafted or a drop, and I make sure of the prereqs.
Getting mad at ZOS because you didn't bother looking beforehand seems pretty childish to me and simply refusing tpo accept the fact it was your own mistake.
So are you defending their mechanic of research times that are OVER 10 DAYS? I forgot the max out one belt. And it takes 21 days. That is insane.
@MrDenimChicken You started here in 2014. The real question is why was the research not completed years ago?
I fail to see how not planning and getting one's research done is an insult to our time when thousands of players have completed their research without complaining. Especially someone who has been around since 2014 has had plenty of time to do their research.
Further, it is easy to ask a guildmate to craft armor. Many that do not care to get involved with crafting at all tend to go this brought.
Between the two the system works very well.6 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darkenarlol wrote: »long time ago in another dimension...
there was no speed research scrolls at all
and it took 6+ month to get a 9 trait crafter
but now when you have a CHOISE you are not happy...ok
Wait or spend money. That's not a choice, that's manipulation. A choice would be to spend gold on it. This entire game is built around nudging people to spend money more and more.
You know how much time needed to research 9th trait? you'll be tired of speeding it up with CS research scrolls. This is just not viable. If you want to have crafter who can craft everything, you need a plan and then systematically follow that plan.
Leveling crafting in ESO is all about persistence, this has nothing to do with crown store. Same as IRL. Nobody becomes master crafter in few clicks. It's same as master angler. Persistence, persistence, persistence, nothing else.5 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some rough calculation is that you need 1M+ crowns to quickly became 9-trait crafter. I doubt that even biggest whales will go for that. Especially when ton of experienced players have fully leveled crafters and ready to help a guildmate for free if he has mats.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I always thought research timers were the wrong way round, surely the more you know about a craft, the quicker and easier you learn something new about it. My research times should decrease with every trait I know, logically speaking. I also get that doesn't work per se in the context of the game; I mean, if your first trait took 24days,would you even bother continuing? I also fully understand that the artificially protracted research times are there to both primarily slow you down from getting the associated achievements and benefits too soon, and secondly a monetization mechanism (arguably came much later and the speed jumps are minimal at best). I just feel it isn't the best implemented as it is. However, we're too far in now for that to change, and I only need 1 character as my master crafter--which I already have.Edited by mairwen85 on June 22, 2020 12:40AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I always thought research timers were the wrong way round, surely the more you know about a craft, the quicker and easier you learn something new about it. My research times should decrease with every trait I know, logically speaking. I also get that doesn't work per se in the context of the game; I mean, if your first trait took 24days,would you even bother continuing? I also fully understand that the artificially protracted research times are there to both primarily slow you down from getting the associated achievements and benefits too soon, and secondly a monetization mechanism (arguably came much later and the speed jumps are minimal at best). I just feel it isn't the best implemented as it is. However, we're too far in now for that to change, and I only need 1 character as my master crafter--which I already have.
The other way to look at it is that the more we know about a craft the more we delve into learning more complex aspects of that craft.
Regardless, the current design allows players to craft some sets early on as some sets require knowing a few traits and we can learn a few traits pretty fast. It it worked as you suggest, longer research times to start with, it would be a detriment to new players. Granted, new players have it easy getting gear as they can ask a guildmate to craft it for them. Us old-timers had to learn the traits ourselves as no one else had been playing longer than us. OP had plenty of time to do their research since they started the game about the time it launched, they just had different priorities.1 -
Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darkenarlol wrote: »long time ago in another dimension...
there was no speed research scrolls at all
and it took 6+ month to get a 9 trait crafter
but now when you have a CHOISE you are not happy...ok
Wait or spend money. That's not a choice, that's manipulation. A choice would be to spend gold on it. This entire game is built around nudging people to spend money more and more.
ofc you are totally ignoring the fact that you can buy research speeders
with writ vouchers from vendor or for gold from other players/guild stores?
(yeah they have a cooldown but still simply halves research time)
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's called solution selling. Old trick at this point. But sure, keep throwing money at in-game store and just watch how they come up with even more insulting cash grabs.MrDenimChicken wrote: »[snip] It's hard not to take it personally that the developers of a video game want to squeeze you into buying more crap for real money, and the way they do it is to force some ridiculous timer mechanics that are an obscene amount of time.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 23, 2020 4:33PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's called solution selling. Old trick at this point. But sure, keep throwing money at in-game store and just watch how they come up with even more insulting cash grabs.MrDenimChicken wrote: »[snip] It's hard not to take it personally that the developers of a video game want to squeeze you into buying more crap for real money, and the way they do it is to force some ridiculous timer mechanics that are an obscene amount of time.
Or work with the in-game mechanics as I do.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 23, 2020 4:33PM0 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's called solution selling. Old trick at this point. But sure, keep throwing money at in-game store and just watch how they come up with even more insulting cash grabs.MrDenimChicken wrote: »[snip] It's hard not to take it personally that the developers of a video game want to squeeze you into buying more crap for real money, and the way they do it is to force some ridiculous timer mechanics that are an obscene amount of time.
Or work with the in-game mechanics as I do.
I know, I did the same thing. But it makes you question if and to what extent time gate mechanics - which are different from time sinks in that they're independent from time played - were always a hook for future monetisation.
And it doesn't change the bad taste in some players' mouths from having a solution sold for real money. If the logic of time gates is to pace content so players don't simply rush through and reach a content desert, there should be no for-pay solutions. If that wasn't the reason for time gates, then what are they for, exactly?Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 23, 2020 4:33PM1 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Better idea: spend your money and time getting buff.
Deltia had it right.
Oh, and if you already are buff...get buffer. And, no, not the swift one...0 -
Rowjoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
You don't have to wait for gear crafting at all and you don't have to buy scrolls either. No one does.
Whether you're one trait short or haven't even levelled crafting at all, you can simply ask someone to do it for you, and most will do it for free, especially in guilds.
The crafting mechanic is actually intuitive, well balanced and rewarding. It is not overly long for an MMO (yes, this is an MMO, not a single player game!) and you even get a few research scrolls given to you every month via the daily rewards let alone the ones you can get in-game with writ vouchers that effectively halve the overall time sink.
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peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MrDenimChicken wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Yeeeaaaaahhh.... research was the same massive timesink, long before there even were research scrolls. It takes so long because this is an MMO (yay, timesinks!), and because 'mastering' crafting generally/should take a lot of time. Not because they want to twist your arm for Crowns (as mentioned, that came much later.)
It probably wasn't designed that way to twist your arm for crowns in the beginning, but it was designed to keep people playing longer through a timegate mechanic. Now they took that timegate mechanic and monetized it.
Not sure I agree it was even designed to make you play longer, exactly. You'd have to be pretty nuts about crafting to keep playing solely to acquire research traits if you hate the rest of the game. More it was designed so you can't become a master crafter in 24 hours because that is unrealistic. It is a simplistic way to represent that you're working towards that larger goal and give you that "I did it!!!" feeling when you meet it.
Concepts like low RNG drops, BoP gear, time sink achievements (kill x of this monster), etc. are the ones meant to keep you playing longer.
Also, I totally thought this thread was going to be about vMA weapons or performance, lol.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's called solution selling. Old trick at this point. But sure, keep throwing money at in-game store and just watch how they come up with even more insulting cash grabs.MrDenimChicken wrote: »[snip] It's hard not to take it personally that the developers of a video game want to squeeze you into buying more crap for real money, and the way they do it is to force some ridiculous timer mechanics that are an obscene amount of time.
Or work with the in-game mechanics as I do.
I know, I did the same thing. But it makes you question if and to what extent time gate mechanics - which are different from time sinks in that they're independent from time played - were always a hook for future monetisation.
And it doesn't change the bad taste in some players' mouths from having a solution sold for real money. If the logic of time gates is to pace content so players don't simply rush through and reach a content desert, there should be no for-pay solutions. If that wasn't the reason for time gates, then what are they for, exactly?
Considering it was a full year before Zos even fully developed the cash shop and that speed ups research came quite a long time after that it seems to be a stretch to suggest Zos created the research design for crafting in order to monetize it. Granted, it works well for monetizing but Zos would have to be pretty dense to have designed it for such purposes yet take years before they started making money off of it.
As for what Zos' original intent was, what the time gates are for? I would suggest Zos thought it was good to require an investment commitment to crafting to be able to craft what would supposedly be the better gear of what could be crafted. As I just pointed out in the previous paragraph, the timing of research perks being added to the cash shop was years after the game launched and well after the cash shop came into being. As such it makes no sense that Zos made the design for the reasons you suggest.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 23, 2020 4:34PM0 -
Jerkling✭✭✭✭MrDenimChicken wrote: »[...] [snip] It's hard not to take it personally that the developers of a video game want to squeeze you into buying more crap for real money, and the way they do it is to force some ridiculous timer mechanics that are an obscene amount of time. [...]
If you don't like the monetisation strategies ZOS is utilizing in this game you could just stop playing and not spend any more money on it. "Money talks" as it were.
But let's face it, you don't, you wouldn't. You just come on the forums to vent and that's it. You keep on playing, keep on spending money for useless stuff and keep on putting up with whatever it is ZOS is doing to make more profit and nothing is going to change.
Don't get me wrong, I 'm not trying to be mean spirited here. I'm saying this in an objective, fact-based-ish manner.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 23, 2020 4:34PM0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's called solution selling. Old trick at this point. But sure, keep throwing money at in-game store and just watch how they come up with even more insulting cash grabs.MrDenimChicken wrote: »[snip] It's hard not to take it personally that the developers of a video game want to squeeze you into buying more crap for real money, and the way they do it is to force some ridiculous timer mechanics that are an obscene amount of time.
Or work with the in-game mechanics as I do.
I know, I did the same thing. But it makes you question if and to what extent time gate mechanics - which are different from time sinks in that they're independent from time played - were always a hook for future monetisation.
MMOs were built around time sinks & gates, long before 'cash shops' and convenience-buys were even a thought in a marketer's mind.
(But it was still about money, because all those games were required sub. And the longer it took to do things, the longer you were subbing. Of course, all those time-sinks were also about giving the devs time to make more content - players eat up content far faster than devs can make it, so they filled it with time sinks and time gates to make the release last longer.)
Still - to me, it verges on "paranoid conspiracy theory" to think that they made crafting research take 6+ months, because they had the idea that someday years later they would sell research scrolls.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 23, 2020 4:34PM0 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭wait, you mean you've never spent hours upon hours, days upon days visiting every single guild trader in tamriel (console) searching for just that right piece of whatever
just picked up 5 body pieces of heavy armor new moon acolyte for a grand total of 35k (second server account and only researched up to 6 traits)...took about a week and a half, but, there are deals out there...
it was either that or having to ask someone for help - decided I didn't want to do that...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't like extreme monetization however I feel this isn't really an example of it.
The research times on traits AND the horse timers are two of the few examples left of ESO having more of an old-school, classic MMO feel.
Of course the very reason that "feel" is old-school-classic is PRECISELY because the world moved on and no-one really has time for that anymore.
There's no reason at all for Craft Trait Research to increase in duration in the way it does, each Trait is unique, so its not like your having to learn a more advanced iteration of something you already know - an increased research duration would make sense in such a case,
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.0 -
xF1REFL1x✭✭✭I get it to a degree... this game feels like all there is to do lately is grind this or grind that. Gets frustrating fast. The fishing lead for stranglers took over 3 hrs to finally get. I actually got it on my first cast but the hole closed up in seconds with everyone fishing the few spots there are and I lost it before claiming it. After that it just became a job to finish and move on... the fun was drained out of me by spending the next 3 hrs fishing for it again.0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not JUST about the Crown Store.
The entire MMO paradigm is about treating players as if their time is worthless, tricking players into constantly redoing the same content over and over and thinking that's somehow a good thing, encouraging players to do things that require them to wait and wait and wait for respawns, adding tons of nuisance mobs to slow down your progress through the content, rewarding completion with RNG rather than just rewarding them, etc.
It was like this when the game was sub-only, just nowhere near as bad. I think there has to be at least some masochism in any MMO player, myself included.Edited by MasterSpatula on June 22, 2020 8:46PM"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0 -
Langdon64✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Naw, not really. Of all the mmos that I've played in my life, ESO ranks high in the "able to log in and actually gain something meaningful or productive to your account without egregious time gates"
Except for training riding, researching jewelry, waiting for Harrowstorms...1
