I wanted to create a new thread, but I will write in this. Very disappointed with the fight with the fins boss in Greymoor. NO SPOILERS! After Elsweyr, where the fight in the last bosses was divided into stages and generally looked (only looked) long and epic, I thought that ZoS learned some lessons from past experience. But in Greymoor, the last boss of the chapter has only 800k hp, which I could kill in 5 seconds. I did not do this just to feel the epic moment. Epic ... moment ...

Iccotak wrote: »

@robertthebard

What I mean is that in Skyrim enemy units had varying degrees of difficulty to defeat. Not all enemies behave the same or can be tackled using the exact same methods. Fighting Bandits was different to fighting a Draugr which was different to fighting a Pyromancer or Cryomancer.
As you got more powerful those Pyromancers and Draugr use more powerful abilities. Dragons got more powerful from basic to Legendary so you had to take more precautions.

Sure at a certain point their levels cap and you basically become a God but there were difficulties in getting there.

If there were three things I could change in ESOs combat it would be
1. Enemies move as you fight and try to flank you more often
2. Enemy ranks: a Bandit is simple but a Bandit Chief leading that mob is going to be harder
3. A greater detection area

In the single player games when you engaged with say bandits, there was also the possibility that there was an archer sniping you from a distance - so not only did you have to take care of the nearby threats but you also had to try to find whoever was shooting at you while keeping aware of the mini-boss that was looming around the area.

Bandits have versions that not only do move to flank, but do so with a "Move to flank" audible. Archers and casters are casting at you, and do move around. Goblins and Draugr already behave differently, depending on subtypes. Casters aren't running up to you trying to stab you with their staff, for example. So all of this is already in the game? More powerful versions of these mobs all already exist as well. Most of them are in dungeons and trials, but there are map zones where they are all lieutenant grades, or used to be, like Craglorn. I finished up a quest this morning that ended with two Lt. grade casters, with one of them being a summoner.

So given that these things are in game currently, one wonders, what zones are you playing in that they're not? You cite previous TES games, but as I said, our experience varies wildly. Bandits in the first maps behave very much like bandits later, right down to the archers and Lt. grade mobs. Yep, we get stronger dragons as we level, to a point, but even they stop leveling with the player eventually, and if you're doing your gear up as you progress, and why wouldn't you be, they're not much harder than the earlier versions, and that's w/out the crafting exploits, and mods.

Iccotak wrote: »

I am an end game PvE player; zones, delves, dungeons, trials etc.

there are map zones where they are all lieutenant grades, or used to be, like Craglorn. I finished up a quest this morning that ended with two Lt. grade casters, with one of them being a summoner.

Honestly can't tell the difference. Sure there's different abilities but none of their current mechanics make them anymore of a threat. They are all the same difficulty to a point that I never notice. None of the individual unit, who may be of higher rank, actually seem to be more of a threat than their subordinates.

All mobs are usually groups of three with a tank, dps, and caster (healer or damage) and those fights almost always play out the same way. The only thing that changes it up is when you rush through a few mobs to get a larger group together as to include more variables.

Goblins and Draugr already behave differently, depending on subtypes.

This may be due to playing lots of dungeons but in my opinions there is nothing mechanical that separates goblins from draugr, they behave largely the same and they basically use the same model with a different skin and animation.
They could have done something unique with the Rieklings like in Skyrim by making them actually specific short models and not just hunched over people.
Skyrim Riekling

ESO Riekling

They could make unique Riekling units that attack while riding their boars, like from III & V.

Also It's not like we ever meet any Draugr that use shouts like unrelenting force. Imagine if one used elemental fury for increased attack speed

Most of them are in dungeons and trials.

This is my point, enemy capability is more of a concern in the dungeons. There is some level of thinking when going about beating the mobs. That is almost never the case when it comes to zones, there is a too big of a disconnect between skill needed for overland & dungeons. I am not saying that all of overland should be veteran but that there needs to be a way to bridge that disconnect so new players are better prepared for endgame should they wish to partake.

They could be tougher with two things:
1. More Mechanics and Abilities for each enemy unit, capable of doing more things
2. less telegraphing all of their moves, at beginner levels it makes sense and it's helpful in dungeons but by over-telegraphing all of their moves they become too predictable and the combat too stale.

An example of #2
Minotaurs and Gryphons actually have different charging mechanics because ZOS saw how normal enemy charging provides too much heads up to the players.

I know it is an issue when even new players to the game, who are starting from scratch, have pointed out to me that overland is too easy or they just get tedious from being a tiny bit stronger, but they don't have any tough enemies for the Solo content. All the hard stuff is put into group content like the Public Dungeons, Dolmens, and World Bosses. Some have said that they are not a fan of the "Big Bad" being so easily defeated.
They separate them too much.

Craglorn went too far in the extreme which is why people were not a fan of playing it. You had to have a group to do anything in that zone which was not fun, and even now you still should have a group for most of the places on the map. But that doesn't mean that we should completely discount it because when I got friends together to tackle it the zone actually became really fun. So there is something to learn from that experience.

Like others have said it's not choosing between face roll Easy or Old Craglorn Hard, it's finding a middle ground.

It's about giving the obstacles present in the game some actual presence so you don't feel guilty about wiping out half an army just by sneezing in their general direction.

I think we can find a better middle ground between current overland & old craglorn

ZOS could take note from PvP and how players move around the battlefield in a fight. Take lessons from that combat and see what can be applied to PvE enemy units.

In my opinion I think that story bosses should be more of a goal, a challenge to overcome as opposed to an easy victory that is for low level players. I do think that final story bosses done right could have something to offer to Veteran players as well.

However, at the end of the day we will have to wait and see ZOS plans for revision to the CP system and the issue of power creep in order to provide more insight into the situation.

The problem with snipping a post to pieces to cherry pick parts is that you leave out some very important context, and I don't think it was an accident.

The problem still comes back to "how do they "fix" it"? I laid out a few possible solutions in my first post, and you don't want bullet sponges that do high damage, we can't nerf gear, there's reactions to that all over the first few pages of the forums. Shifting mechanics won't matter. I'm an endgame player too. I've played a lot of endgame, in a lot of games, SP, MP and MMO. I understand the mechanics, and I understand how to play my characters. How are they going to build around that to make the game challenging to me? The follow up question is "Are you sure you want to play a game where they do make it challenging to an endgame player"? They'd have to make it pretty hard for me, and I'm sure I'm not the best example of an endgame player here. So if they make it challenging for them, who else is going to be able to play?

"But they can group up". No, new players won't have that luxury. "You don't have enough CP" Vote Kick. "You took too long to kill that trash", vote kick. Where do I get that idea? From reading these forums. You're not helping the game, you're killing it.

Hmm, I've never seen a goblin, or a draugr that flip over the player's head shouting "Move to flank"...

Now, if you don't take the changes far enough, we'll be right back here with "why's the game too easy". That's not a supposition, as I mentioned DDO earlier, that had difficulties already, and the hardest difficulty wasn't hard enough, any more. I also mentioned what happened when they got their increased difficulty. "But this is stupid hard, it needs to be nerfed". Nothing so far has addressed one of my other questions though: How do they build around player skill, and use/understanding of mechanics?

You're right, there's no reason to talk that way, but it's the reality of the game. It's not only something that happens, but it's apparently a point of pride when it does. So tuning it up so that players may want, or need to group up is literally killing it for new players.

Then there's the expense. It's going to take developer time and resources to do something that they can't sell. Contrary to popular opinions on YouTube, and other places, selling content is how gaming companies make their money. This also has the effect of diverting resources from other areas where they could be better used. I'm not talking loot crates here either, but actual content. I don't buy loot crates with sub stipends, let alone spending cash on them.

Noxavian wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

see, elder scrolls comes from single player - for decades it was just that - and therefore a large part of the player base just wants elder scrolls as it has been with the option of occasionally play with a friend - ESO is not supposed to be the typical MMO and that is why it is how it is - mainly playable as what it always has been - a single player experience.

elder scrolls has never been a mindless face roll unless you play on Novice/Apprentice difficulty though.

Novice/apprentice may be easier then the other levels, but they can’t be leveled as “easy(faceroll)” because that determination can only be placed by each player on an individual basis.

In other words, what is easy fo some may not be easy for others.

Since this is an mmo, difficulty switching can only be done in confined and controlled areas (dungeons) doing it for overland would only split the player base. Splitting the base makes the player experience worse for everyone. (Ever had to wait for people to help with a world boss? Imagine it with the player base cut in half.)

Vet content is only done by a small fraction of the community. A harder “server” would be very underpopulated.

If a player is having it too easy for themselves in overland, just play with the greens and blues that fall as drops, and take off the champion points. Use that as the “difficulty switch”.

Iccotak wrote: »

Hmm, I've never seen a goblin, or a draugr that flip over the player's head shouting "Move to flank"...

One tactic that not only has been the only one where enemies attempt to flank you but also one that is overly telegraphed is not a big difference.
Especially when the average overland encounter is just three enemies that have some basic abilities but mostly light attack.
There is clearly room for improvement and more dynamic movement & Ai.

Haven’t you ever played Oblivion and wandered into a castle and found yourself out of your depth with a couple of Flame Atronachs and had to figure it out?
Those kinds of moments are practically non existent in exploring or even the story.
Not for Vets, they should be tough that it’s a non issue. But for new players I hardly ever find myself in a situation that requires trial & error during overland and questing.

Nothing so far has addressed one of my other questions though: How do they build around player skill, and use/understanding of mechanics?

Well like was previously said, the point is to bridge the skill gap because it is clear that One Tamriel nerfed the existing overland content.
No one is saying to make veteran overland - Craglorn tried that and nobody played it.

As long as the content better prepares players for endgame, (meaning they have a basic grasp of what is needed to pull their weight) despite whether or not that is their intended goal, then wouldn’t that have done its job?
People can stay in that tier all they like but as long as they’re better prepared for the next tier or as long as the story can still be fun for vets, and not a walk in the park (whether or not that is their chosen instance) then that sounds fine.

Because from what I’ve seen a story with a decent challenge and a good boss fight sells. In many cases when people are told that it’s too easy to a point that it’s boring or that you lose investment in the story then there’s a lost interest and less buyers.
I’ve seen people say that.
It can be unattractive when there’s such a large disconnect between story and endgame to a point that they feel like two different games.
Another bad point is hearing that the MMO is not very social and can encourage anti social behavior.

I think there’s a problem when finding ways to encourage players ( Not Force) to work together, in an MMO, is met with such opposition. As if people will give up if their victory isn’t immediately handed to them and have to get better at the game or ask for help, even slightly. Why do people hate the trial & error so much?
Also isn’t always true that bringing even a little more challenge will scare everyone away.
WoW classic being such an example, over time the game became really easy not because of skill or just getting better at the game but because enemies literally were not as hard to beat as they were before and players got really bored with that.

Again am I saying go to before one Tamriel? No but there is a better balance than what we have now than these two extremes of easy & end game hard.

Not everyone is a monster or has such horrible experiences with getting into group content. Plenty have found friendships through positive experiences of working together to beat something difficult or slightly challenging, I know that’s in my experience.

I want final bosses to be a positive experience, not anticlimactic or unmemorable. Part of that is the story, the other is the gameplay.

@robertthebard
Is your overall point that the overland is fine as it is? That nothing should be changed because it isn’t worth changing?
Or do you have an idea of what they could try without those results in other games?
(Edit: that’s a genuine question, no snark or sarcasm)

How would you tackle the threads asking for a solo mode for group dungeons which are a result of people doing two things.
1. Refusing to play with others
2. Wasn’t prepared for group difficulty, trial & error, so they say it’s too hard and should be nerfed.

Both are things I’ve read on this forum.

My overall point is that they can't "fix" it. There are only so many things they can do, and none of them are going to satisfy everyone. If they try to tweak it a little at a time, it's going to be "they're not doing anything to address my concerns". We can see that on these forums every day. Where's the cutoff point where they say "This is all we're doing, or it's going to negatively impact new/less skilled players"? We're not talking about instanced content with a slider here, we're talking the vast majority of the game. Haven't you already stated that they took some OL content too far, with Craglorn? Imagine that for the entirety of OL content. I thought it was fine as it was, and any nerfs to that content came during my absence, or I'd have railed against it.

I tend to ignore threads demanding that content that's intended for group play be dumbed down for solo play. If I were to respond, however, it would be with something along the lines of "this content is built for group play, get some friends, or join a guild". Ironically, it's for the same reason, or at least in part, that I oppose jacking up OL content to match endgame content. The difficulty levels, or lack there of, may not be aimed at the players complaining about it. In DDO, my responses to "nerf elite so I can solo it" threads was the same thing. No, that content is intended to be challenging. While the crème de la crème of the player base may have found it too easy, at least according to what they say, the reality was somewhat different when they got their harder content, and my position even then was to tell them to play a lower difficulty, which is what got me banned from the forums there.

You left out a few variables, but there's one I want to touch on for the sake of this conversation: vote kicking for low CP or for taking too long to clear some trash. While I can somewhat sympathize with that in optional content, it's unacceptable in content that's required to advance the story portion of the game. Even if it's just the last boss, you're locking some players out by virtue of how the community operates. Or, and I'm not sure that this isn't worse, nobody's running that content any more, and a new player can't get a group they may actually need to complete their story. Dungeons, trials and pledges can be ignored w/out impacting the story lines in the game, but the final resolutions of the story lines can't be. So it's easy to tell someone "No, that content isn't designed with solo play in mind" in regard to those, but it's harder to say "sorry, but you'll have to beg around in chat until you find someone to help you, if you can" for story content.

I'm a former progression raider. Former because running the content all the time was starting to have a negative impact on my health. Chronic migraines triggered by light. So all the flashy stuff really does a number on me. How many threads have I started insisting that this content be toned down so that I can "safely" run it? I'll save you some searching, 0. I had to quit Tera for the same reason, and all of the endgame content was raiding/dungeon type stuff. Still no threads insisting they tune it for my benefit, and I'm certainly not going to insist that OL, or any part of it, be tuned to my level of play. As we can see, since you thought they went too far with Craglorn, and I thought it was fine as it was, that tuning it for me would make it too hard for you. But if they tuned it for you, and I was inclined to complain about "too easy", they wouldn't have fixed it for me, and others like me, or even more skilled/better geared, and they may be inclined to start even more threads, and we're right back here, as if nothing had happened. Which brings me back to my initial comment in this post: They can't "fix" it. DDO had Casual, Normal, Hard and Elite on almost every quest in the game, and explorer zones, while instanced, were aimed at specific level ranges. Yet, as players became stronger, and more knowledgeable, the game got to the point where it was "too easy", until they got 10 levels of Reaper, and then they insisted that they should be able to run everything at Reaper 10, and so, it was "stupid hard" and needed to be nerfed. I'd rather not go through that again.

Iccotak wrote: »

@idk
For a moment, put aside that ZOS is unlikely to change because the current model is financially successful.

Do you as a player have any issues with the how the final boss of the main Story is handled?
Not general questing, that should generally be easy.

If you had decision power as well as resources, would you change anything about it?

I'm curious, why would a business that was formed to make money put financial considerations on hold when making design decisions?

No. As I've pointed out elsewhere, you found Craglorn too far, and I was fine with it as it was. Do you really want them building the game to suit me? What if they build it for the players that are better than me?

No. Financially successful is exactly what a gaming company is looking for, why change something that's making us money, to feed into your hypothetical? The short answer is, "You don't". If it works, don't fix it. Players are going to complain, no matter what you do. Too hard, too easy, no communication, didn't say what I want to hear, etc. etc.