There is too much separation between story and group content

eKsDee

Going to copypaste a comment I left in another thread previously, because it ties nicely into what some people have mentioned.

The exact opposite is what actually happens, though. These players are only dealing 2k DPS, or aren't properly blocking and healing, because of how easy overland is. Overland never really requires you to do these things, outside of a few cases, and it actively harms the personal knowledge and skill growth of players who primarily do overland content.

A player who primarily quests and explores is never really taught how to properly deal damage, protect themselves from damage, manage their resources, or even how to properly build their character. The tutorial may cover a fraction of this -- Elsweyr actually does a decent job at showing players these things, to be fair -- but it pretty much goes in one ear and out the other, because they're immediately thrown into content that really doesn't require any of that.

So of course when this player starts delving into group content, and naturally underperforms because they're playing an Altmer heavy armour wearing stamDK DPS, who uses a sword and shield for their weapons, while only light attacking -- because overland has allowed them to -- of course other players are going to respond with harsh and honestly fair criticism. Group content has a certain expectation, that unfortunately doesn't line up at all with anything overland offers, and this player completely failed to meet that expectation.

Overland difficulty I feel is a part of a much larger problem, that directly ties into why the perceived skill gap is as large as it is, despite Zenimax repeatedly introducing tools for newer players to use to improve their gameplay, and meet said expectations. Put simply, the game is coddling newer players far too much (between overland, nerfing of harder content, constant catering to unskilled and pure numbers-carried gameplay in PvP, etc), and it's actively harming how newer players are playing ESO, and driving a wedge between the newer players and what should be their idols/mentors.

As I've said in other threads, for this current problem, I'll always support an optional player-sided debuff, so I can have my fun in overland without affecting other players. But I can't just ignore this other massive problem that's linked to this current problem, and it's one that really has to be solved if the entire ESO community wants to collectively move forward.

This is an MMO with multiple levels of tiered content. It cannot and should not have the lowest tier be so disconnected from the next tier up, which may be so disconnected from the next tier up, etc. Each tier should be a bit easier than the next, but still hard enough to introduce you to the concepts of what will be required of you in the next tier.

Currently, ESO fails miserably at that in the overland -> normal dungeon step, which I feel is part of the reason why newer players can't solo public dungeons, world bosses, dolmens, or even quest bosses. That content is pitifully easy (jesus, I soloed a Deshaan world boss on a level 43 magblade with no CP allocated, and half-green-half-blue half-set-half-random gear; it took a while, and I really needed to dodge, block and heal a ton, but it was absolutely doable), the problem is newer players don't know how to properly play the game, because they've never needed to play properly outside of these few examples of overland content.

Overland should be easy, while still being hard enough to where dodging, blocking, bashing and healing are second nature to you, before you even touch group content. In every other game I've played, that's been the case, but not here, and I feel it's because Zenimax knows that the players who spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars on this game don't like that sort of content.

Which is fair enough, but you have to understand that until this gets addressed, you're going to continue seeing these threads pop up, you're going to continue seeing the "skill gap" being brought up despite Zenimax's repeated attempts to address it, and you're going to continue to get kicked out of groups for not pulling your weight.

Iccotak

eKsDee wrote: »

This is an MMO with multiple levels of tiered content. It cannot and should not have the lowest tier be so disconnected from the next tier up, which may be so disconnected from the next tier up, etc. Each tier should be a bit easier than the next, but still hard enough to introduce you to the concepts of what will be required of you in the next tier.

Overland should be easy, while still being hard enough to where dodging, blocking, bashing and healing are second nature to you, before you even touch group content. In every other game I've played, that's been the case, but not here, and I feel it's because Zenimax knows that the players who spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars on this game don't like that sort of content.

Which is fair enough, but you have to understand that until this gets addressed, you're going to continue seeing these threads pop up, you're going to continue seeing the "skill gap" being brought up despite Zenimax's repeated attempts to address it, and you're going to continue to get kicked out of groups for not pulling your weight.

THIS - So Much THIS is absolutely relevant to the point I am making.
When the hardest content in the story of an MMO does not prepare the player for the next tier of difficulty then there's a problem. This isn't about ego, this is pointing out the fact that there is a growing disconnect between the tiers of difficulty in the content.

The fact right now is that players have to seek outside guidance in order to be prepared for group content because nothing in overland or the story prepares them.
The game should encourage players to level through both overland & dungeons, and eventually trials.
(Edit: players can make their own choice but there needs to be a clear and better connected path of progression)

The problem with Craglorn is that it went too far in the extreme by requiring a group for every activity on the map. There was no middle ground.

The tiers of difficulty need to be more obvious and connected so players can make their way from one tier to the next.

eKsDee

Starlock wrote: »

Well, forced grouping for story content would get me to opt out and quit this game in a short minute. And I’m hardly alone in that. The OP is very out of touch with large segments of the player base and how/why they play this game.

OP is not asking for forced grouping in story content, OP is asking for story content to be buffed, so that by the time players are "done" with story content and want to start running group content, they already know what's expected of them and can do the bare minimum of what's required to pull their weight.

Lysette

Hexi wrote: »

Most players can't even solo public dungeons, let alone world bosses. You see people asking for help for DOLMENS. Here's the problem. If they added VET overland similar to the difficulty that the old VET zones were, where missing a block meant you died, but you got nothing extra out of, no one would bother. If they DID add something extra for it, you would get massive whining from the people who can barely manage the current overland in addition segregating players.

I did VET rank 14 when the game launched, so no crafted sets cause no one had researched traits, no easy dungeons to farm cause they didn't scale, no CP, shockingly current overland content isn't challenging for me.

i am one of those not being able to do public dungeon on my own - died twice in elsweyr in a public dungeon lately. but this is as well because of my problem with high ping and proper targeting when latency is spiking and i can't get out of red because i do not even see it glowing red before it hit me.

i have 16700 km distance to the server - nothing will enable me to get out of red in time, if there is not an oceanic server as well. i do not need any more challenge therefore.

Wolf_Eye

Look. I know you're frustrated, but some of us are enjoying the game as it is; as a casual experience where you can unwind and not have built up stress. There are other players who disagree, and without doing some sort of mandatory voting poll you will never know how many disagree and how many agree.

I, for one, do not like your idea unless it would be completely optional that you can toggle in settings.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it doesn't seem like something that should be forced on people after we've spent so many years accustomed to the way things are now.

(I know you say this isn't about forcing group mode, but I can't exactly tell what you're suggesting and it does seem like you want to force something similar to that yes?)

Wolf_Eye

[Quoted post removed]

It sounds like you actually want to look at this from an AI perspective and not the typical "buff/debuff" sort of thing that most people suggest. That's not a bad idea either per se (it sounds like it could add plenty of extra challenge), but I wonder if ZOS would be willing to put in the work for that. And I like your suggestion of a veteran overland, implying that this is optional. Would it be a toggable instance? Perhaps you'd have to travel through a portal of some sort. Or maybe select it from the log in screen?

Anotherone773

I would be ok with some sort of selectable hard mode that is applied to all non instanced combat. Maybe even have multiple difficulty levels.

Elite - Your damage output is reduced by 25% and your damage received is increased by 50%.
Veteran - Your damage output is reduced by 50% and your damage received is increased by 100%
Hero - Your damage output is reduced by 75% and your damage received is increased by 150%
Daedric Prince - Your damage output is reduced by 90% and your damage received is increased by 270%

Narvuntien

I believe so yes, mostly because most solo content doesn't prepare you for group content at all.
I can do story content with only light attacks basically.

There needs to be a way to better integrate your group role into story content. it doesn't even have to be hard it just has to show you what your roles and responsibilities are.

I would suggest undaunted training of some sort.

mavfin

The last four posts are missing the point completely. A lot of casual players *don't want or need 'training for raids' content.*

They have no intention of ever doing veteran level content.

Still, several keep insisting that this is needed. It's a waste of time, and if you *force it on people*, which is what you're pushing, people will leave. Thankfully, ZOS knows this, and won't do what you want.

People who *do* want to play at that level, and put in the time and effort to play there, can do it fine.

There are, of course, tryhards who can't hack it, but that is, again, not the game's problem. That's an individual issue.

If people want to play at that level, there are guides for it, and, of course, practice, practice, practice, for the muscle memory.

Major_Lag

wrote:

[Quoted post removed]

[

It sounds like you actually want to look at this from an AI perspective and not the typical "buff/debuff" sort of thing that most people suggest. That's not a bad idea either per se (it sounds like it could add plenty of extra challenge), but I wonder if ZOS would be willing to put in the work for that. And I like your suggestion of a veteran overland, implying that this is optional. Would it be a toggable instance? Perhaps you'd have to travel through a portal of some sort. Or maybe select it from the log in screen?[/quote]
The simplest way would be to reuse the existing Normal/Veteran difficulty selection for dungeons, placing the player in an appropriate overland instance.
Yes, overland is already instanced - if you don't believe it, try repeatedly porting to Alik'r: some "parallel universes" have a clockwise dolmen rotation and others have CCW.

And yes, I absolutely find the enemy AI very lacking.
It's not a matter of numbers. You could make the average trashmob have the HP and damage output of a normal (non-DLC) dungeon boss, and that would still not make the fights "challenging" - it would just take next to forever, due to the enemy being such a huge sack of HP.

And that's one of the reasons I prefer the PvP - because it's not just a "stay out of red and spam damaging abilities" simulator: the enemy players will absolutely try to get you killed, and you need to expend some actual effort to put them six feet under.
Now, ESO PvP is not without its other (unrelated) problems, but that's beside the scope of this discussion.

Wolf_Eye

Major_Lag wrote: »

The simplest way would be to reuse the existing Normal/Veteran difficulty selection for dungeons, placing the player in an appropriate overland instance.
Yes, overland is already instanced - if you don't believe it, try repeatedly porting to Alik'r: some "parallel universes" have a clockwise dolmen rotation and others have CCW.

And yes, I absolutely find the enemy AI very lacking.
It's not a matter of numbers. You could make the average trashmob have the HP and damage output of a normal (non-DLC) dungeon boss, and that would still not make the fights "challenging" - it would just take next to forever, due to the enemy being such a huge sack of HP.

And that's one of the reasons I prefer the PvP - because it's not just a "stay out of red and spam damaging abilities" simulator: the enemy players will absolutely try to get you killed, and you need to expend some actual effort to put them six feet under.
Now, ESO PvP is not without its other (unrelated) problems, but that's beside the scope of this discussion.

An optional instanced Vet difficulty for overland with new AI...This is fantastic and I can see no downsides. One of the things that I thought might get in the way of a "difficulty mode" is the fact that players would not all be on the same difficulty mode could still attack the same boss (and the player on "easy mode" would ruin the fun for the player on "hard mode"); but that problem is solved with having an entire instance devoted to harder overland content. Everyone who is in the vet instance will all be treated to the same difficulty regarding boss fights.

AI will probably never be as sophisticated as an actual PVP player (at least not until technology develops better), but I perhaps you could swap some of the more intricate dungeon boss AI into regular delve bosses fairly easily since those animations and skill executions already exist in the code. There may even be a way of rotating around a whole slew of skill executions, so that each and every time you fight a particular boss they'll use a different set of skills leaving you on your toes.

Perhaps even take away some of the most common "tells" such as "red zones"? That way, you have to pay extra attention to what the boss is doing , and it's a gamble where the skill might land.

Lysette

[Quoted post removed]

Back then the game had a low user count, because it was nothing like what the rpg crowd expected from a TES game - then came one tamriel and it felt finally like a real TES game and be less MMOy - it got back to it's roots and is a real TES game now - and with it the user numbers increased dramatically.

Iccotak

[Quoted post removed]

And as others on this thread have said before even a single player titles provided challenge, just because you played solo doesn’t mean it was easy.
You chose a unique place style that is specific to you than most people didn’t use.

Elder scrolls 5 had challenges, that’s why Bethesda even added a legendary difficulty for players who sought out more challenge.

EDIT: You can still choose to not engage in group content or endgame, the point is that overland and questing should to some extent better prepare players for harder content. Through more challenging Story bosses, as well as introducing more varied mechanics for harder enemies and larger mobs.
Because right now we are in a situation where players are asking for easier Dungeons & End game because they weren't ready for how difficult those activities would be.

EDIT#2: This is why when the player reaches 10 & 15 there are prompts that encourage them to engage in dungeons and PvP so then they get used to the demands of more difficult content. But now the game is in such a way that, as @eKsDee put it, coddles players so they are less likely to venture out of their comfort zone.
By overcoming challenges they become more comfortable with the higher tiers of difficulty.

EDIT #3: @Major_Lag is very correct in their experiences and observations. When exploring overland there isn't a moment like in Skyrim when I first ran into a Draugr Overlord who had more challenging mechanics along with their add buffs. There are not any moments that tell me I am out of my depth and could maybe use a bit of help. I don't run into enemies that can use some of the player skill lines which takes players by surprise when they first enter harder group dungeons.

Noxavian

[Quoted post removed]

Back then the game had a low user count, because it was nothing like what the rpg crowd expected from a TES game - then came one tamriel and it felt finally like a real TES game and be less MMOy - it got back to it's roots and is a real TES game now - and with it the user numbers increased dramatically.[/quote]

Dude, as @Iccotak said, TES single player titles were challenging. Stop trying to make it seem like a blanket statement that everyone wanted the game to have no challenge because that's "how the old games were" when they clearly weren't. Just because you had a specific play style doesn't mean that is how the game was for everyone.

In general, the game was challenging. I distinctly remember boss fights even years later because you want to know why? Because they had challenges I had to overcome. I don't even remember most of the story boss fights in ESO because there's nothing unique to them. Nothing to get you thinking.

Want to know the coolest feeling ever that you probably haven't experienced that much yourself? Overcoming a challenge. Doesn't have to be a big hard challenge, doesn't even need to be a very difficult one. Just a challenge. But with how the stories and quests are in ESO right now, THERE IS NO challenge.

Even the people in favor of braindead easy gameplay have to understand that *some* level of challenge would be profitable. They get better rewards for thinking just a tad bit more.

Did it ever occur to you that quest rewards and such could possibly be made even better with some actual challenge? I genuinely do not know a single person that uses quest rewards as actual items unless they're going for a no-dungeon play through.

And once again let me reiterate: There are literally 0 downsides to making bosses in stories have actual mechanics, have actual rewards. It makes the stories MORE impactful because of the challenge represented and the story, rewards, and experience is over all enriched.

I don't know a single person that plays MMOs with the sole expectation to breeze through everything. Even story quests in the other top MMOs such as WoW and FFXIV have some manner of difficulty.

Iccotak

mavfin wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Where's there is difficulty that requires some thinking, but to where it's not difficult to the point to where it's unenjoyable.

The problem is, where that is for you would put out of reach for others, and yet others would laugh at *you* for thinking there's any difficulty. ZOS knows this.

That doesn't mean that ZOS should not try to bridge the skill gap by providing more middle ground between the two

idk

There are numerous levels of challenge between the open world and the most challenging veteran content.

Devles, 4 man dungeons, 4 man DLC dungeons, vet dungeons, vet DLC dungeons, Arenas, normal trials, vet trials, vet HM trials. I probably left out some things.

Yes, there is a lot of difference in the challenge between open-world questing to the more challenging content in the game. It gives players of all skill levels something that they find challenging. Very few have cleared all of the most challenging content in the game anf this design seems to work extremely well.

AcadianPaladin

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

I'd love to and welcome suggestions that come closer than ESO to my ideal:
Medieval Fantasy, massive scale, open world, single player.

After 4000 hours each in Oblivion and Skyrim, neither game is 'massive'. With 8000 hours in ESO, the game still feels massive indeed. I enjoy ESO but the fact that it is multiplayer is a drawback I live with.

ElvenOverlord

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

MMOs are finding a balance between single player and group content. Its not just for mainly group content anymore. Deal with it.

ElvenOverlord

Lysette wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

Most players can't even solo public dungeons, let alone world bosses. You see people asking for help for DOLMENS. Here's the problem. If they added VET overland similar to the difficulty that the old VET zones were, where missing a block meant you died, but you got nothing extra out of, no one would bother. If they DID add something extra for it, you would get massive whining from the people who can barely manage the current overland in addition segregating players.

I did VET rank 14 when the game launched, so no crafted sets cause no one had researched traits, no easy dungeons to farm cause they didn't scale, no CP, shockingly current overland content isn't challenging for me.

i am one of those not being able to do public dungeon on my own - died twice in elsweyr in a public dungeon lately. but this is as well because of my problem with high ping and proper targeting when latency is spiking and i can't get out of red because i do not even see it glowing red before it hit me.

i have 16700 km distance to the server - nothing will enable me to get out of red in time, if there is not an oceanic server as well. i do not need any more challenge therefore.

I soloed both Summerset public dungeons easily and got all achieves. Though I was over CP 300 and it is older content so I don't know if that played a role. Most public dungeons not an issue. Some give me a problem though but that's mainly due to me still figuring out boss mechanics.

navystylz_ESO

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

I have been playing since beta and overland is fine for what it is supposed to be. It was designed for a causal crowd, not tryhards....

You've been playing since beta but conveniently forget how overland used to be more difficult. It was One Tamriel that dumbed it down, and they did it way too hard. Now overland content is mind-numbingly easy and boring. Let's not even get me started on how good bosses like Doshia, Mannimarco and Molag Bal were.

Since most story bosses making you enter some kind of instance area that isn't overland. Having a veteran toggle so taht when you went into those instances, those enemies were scaled harder would be so much better.

Either that or get away from the:

Run to X and loot Y
Run to X and kill Y
Run to X and kill Y to loot Z

Style of quests. This is like vanilla world of warcraft boring. Just look at WoW too see how much questing evolved to have more engaging fun with them that wasn't tied to a difficulty slider.

Truth is Zos does bare minimum for this game. But is very good about asking for month 4 times a year for the same Chapter. Else get ESO plus to keep up with the stuff. And the crown store... ha! Let's make all the best cosmetics purchased for really money. But wait, there's more. If you want a good mount you have to get lottery boxes. Pay more than 3 times the amount than the full game w/ chapter itself for a house.

Lysette wrote: »

i am one of those not being able to do public dungeon on my own - died twice in elsweyr in a public dungeon lately. but this is as well because of my problem with high ping and proper targeting when latency is spiking and i can't get out of red because i do not even see it glowing red before it hit me.

i have 16700 km distance to the server - nothing will enable me to get out of red in time, if there is not an oceanic server as well. i do not need any more challenge therefore.

While this sucks. You chose to play a MMO with the conditions. You can't expect conditions that have NOTHING TO DO WITH GAME, but everything to do with your internet, to be a balancing factor for 99% of the playerbase that has internet that's fine.

navystylz_ESO

Another thing I have noticed, which seriously bugs me is that it's not enough for many who think faceroll overland content should be the way of things, and don't you dare touch what they enjoy. But people who would love a veteran toggle to get a version of map that is much harder, are being told "no, you can't have that. That would split the playerbase" by the same people!

Say what?? It's not enough you think your gameplay in more important when it comes to the difficulty argument, but you think you have the right to hold hostage the players that would jump on a veteran style instance because you don't want to separate the playerbase?? Entitled much?

idk

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

I have been playing since beta and overland is fine for what it is supposed to be. It was designed for a causal crowd, not tryhards....

You've been playing since beta but conveniently forget how overland used to be more difficult. It was One Tamriel that dumbed it down, and they did it way too hard.

I have been playing since beta a found overland to be pretty easy in beta unless you skipped ahead so the character was under level for the content. All 1T did was to eliminate being able to do content above our character's level.

Heck, before 1T it was far to easy to out-level a zone making doing the content a complete and utter joke compared to today. It was an improvement. Our characters could not even generate ultimate after we had out leveled a zone. That is how bad it was before 1T.

@xXMeowMeowXx did not seem to conveniently forget anything.

Everest_Lionheart

Lysette wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

Most players can't even solo public dungeons, let alone world bosses. You see people asking for help for DOLMENS. Here's the problem. If they added VET overland similar to the difficulty that the old VET zones were, where missing a block meant you died, but you got nothing extra out of, no one would bother. If they DID add something extra for it, you would get massive whining from the people who can barely manage the current overland in addition segregating players.

I did VET rank 14 when the game launched, so no crafted sets cause no one had researched traits, no easy dungeons to farm cause they didn't scale, no CP, shockingly current overland content isn't challenging for me.

i am one of those not being able to do public dungeon on my own - died twice in elsweyr in a public dungeon lately. but this is as well because of my problem with high ping and proper targeting when latency is spiking and i can't get out of red because i do not even see it glowing red before it hit me.

i have 16700 km distance to the server - nothing will enable me to get out of red in time, if there is not an oceanic server as well. i do not need any more challenge therefore.

ElvenOverlord wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

Most players can't even solo public dungeons, let alone world bosses. You see people asking for help for DOLMENS. Here's the problem. If they added VET overland similar to the difficulty that the old VET zones were, where missing a block meant you died, but you got nothing extra out of, no one would bother. If they DID add something extra for it, you would get massive whining from the people who can barely manage the current overland in addition segregating players.

I did VET rank 14 when the game launched, so no crafted sets cause no one had researched traits, no easy dungeons to farm cause they didn't scale, no CP, shockingly current overland content isn't challenging for me.

i am one of those not being able to do public dungeon on my own - died twice in elsweyr in a public dungeon lately. but this is as well because of my problem with high ping and proper targeting when latency is spiking and i can't get out of red because i do not even see it glowing red before it hit me.

i have 16700 km distance to the server - nothing will enable me to get out of red in time, if there is not an oceanic server as well. i do not need any more challenge therefore.

I soloed both Summerset public dungeons easily and got all achieves. Though I was over CP 300 and it is older content so I don't know if that played a role. Most public dungeons not an issue. Some give me a problem though but that's mainly due to me still figuring out boss mechanics.

I’ve died from time to time messing around even in DLC public dungeons with my 350+ CP. Both of my toons can pretty much smash their way through at will, one with brute force the other with tons of AOE. Both also only have 13K HP and I often don’t use food when I’m just goofing off with overland, selves or public dungeons. I generally don’t use my potions in those instances either.

I run that stuff for fun though and I don’t really expect to die, but it’s easy enough to do still when goofing off, which I do often because those are instances that can be easily farmed. In the end while I would like some regular content to be harder to force me to work a little I actually like being able to easily stomp a large portion of the game and farm up gold and materials. When I need a challenge I know where to find it whether that’s PvP, soloing world bosses, grouping for vet content or soloing 4 man dungeons myself. I prefer to choose my harder modes in that way.

Psiion

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Iccotak

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

That would split the playerbase" by the same people!

Which is interesting because. as I noted, the PvE player base is already split between Overland & Group content.

And there are people on the forum saying that Group caters too much to Vet players

So I think it’s a valid argument to say that the game has an issue of coddling players by providing content that is too easy as well as not exposing them enough to the challenging activities.

I think this may be due to the fact that if new players are starting in DLC zones where they don’t have quests to get them started in stuff that was needed to know when playing the base game.
The guilds; Fighters, Mages, and importantly Undaunted which started players into dungeons. As well as the good sets to farm and craft in overland.

Basically starting in the DLC can leave players blind to things they need to know to better play the game because that info is back in vanilla content.

Wolf_Eye

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Another thing I have noticed, which seriously bugs me is that it's not enough for many who think faceroll overland content should be the way of things, and don't you dare touch what they enjoy. But people who would love a veteran toggle to get a version of map that is much harder, are being told "no, you can't have that. That would split the playerbase" by the same people!

Say what?? It's not enough you think your gameplay in more important when it comes to the difficulty argument, but you think you have the right to hold hostage the players that would jump on a veteran style instance because you don't want to separate the playerbase?? Entitled much?

I would be completely all for a veteran toggle as long as it was optional. If it's optional, than it's all good in my book. I don't think it would split the playerbase, because the playerbase is already split into different "instances".

In fact, I believe someone even mentioned that delves only allow like 6 people per instance of that delve, to ensure that the delve isn't overwhelmed with too many players. I would assume that's true, because even in the newest Greymoor delves (which I assume are popular right now), I don't think I've ever seen more than a handful of people.

Making a veteran instance of the entire overworld probably would not be too hard to do, and I doubt it would split the playerbase anymore than the current slew of instances does. In other words, adding a veteran instance would see little to no change in the amount of players everyone sees.

I don't believe in forcing people to use "easy mode" if they aren't having fun. If we had an optional toggle for vet instances, than both the "easy mode" fans AND the "vet mode" fans can be happy. Everyone wins! I very much hope that ZOS considers making an optional veteran overland mode.

Tammany

Op, you wont satisfy the humanity.

Increasing hp or lowering damage is sponge making, wont create any challenge, only boredom.
What if devs change mobs fight pattern to force players dodge more, block more ? They will complain like they do in witcher "uh oh dodge simulator blah blah'.

The only one option to make quests more attractive = reward increase, but how to balance them, when these quests are doable with 3 lvl characters as well ? Some gold/exp scalling ?

Sengra

I think the solution to the story content being too easy could be what GW2 did: Make story more difficult but let people do it in parties of up to five (in ESO it would be four). That way if you want a challenge you can do it on your own but if you can't for some reason you could ask for help. People have been asking about shared story intances for a long time so that would be good for several reasons (even if it counts just for one person).

I hate the idea of having a difficulty slider in an MMO just as much as I hate when people hear different songs when someone plays the lute or if it rains for one person while the sun is shining for someone else. MMOs should be shared virtual worlds and there should be a continuity so people know that the person next to them is experiencing the exact same thing, at least in the open world.

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

@mavfin

Basically, you are not going to get to make overland harder

My focus is on The Main Story Boss that the Season hypes up as the big bad but ultimately is very easy

Here's the problem, how are they going to do that, by making it a "bullet sponge"? How are they going to counter player experience? How are they going to counter the player's use/understanding of mechanics? If they do something like what's suggested in this post you can bet we'll have a new thread: Making bosses into high damage bullet sponges isn't making the game harder.

It's true too, it's not. It's going to make it tedious, but tedious does not equate to hard/challenging. Well, maybe they can nerf the gear? We can see already how well that's going to go, just scan the first couple of pages of the forums. Your target audience for these changes? They'll be rage quitting faster than you can say "but they gave us what we wanted". Mandatory grouping sounds fun... /sarcasm Take a look at the forums again? What happens a couple of weeks or so down the road from a new release, when nobody is running that content? So a new player gets to it and can't get a group to finish their story arc? They'll be taking their ball and going home too. How many people here harping for more challenge are going to drop whatever it is they're doing to ensure a new player gets that done?

DDO's forums were abuzz for years about how they needed a higher difficulty. This is the game that made every single quest in the game, barring quests specifically marked as solo, with a difficulty slider. Casual, Normal, Hard and Elite. Yet, some 6 or 7 years into the game's life, it wasn't hard enough on Elite any more. I was against it, but decided "eh, why not, with the condition that once it's released, it's left alone". I got a permanent ban from their forums for laughing at them when, once they got it, it was "stupid hard" and needed to be nerfed, this, despite the fact that some players could solo it's highest setting. As much as they liked throwing out "play a lower difficulty" at those they considered noobs that were insisting Elite get nerfed for ease of soloing, they hated it when it was thrown back on them.

The excuses were the same there as we see here, and as we see in every other MMO's group content: PuGs suck, because none of these players know what they're doing. I've seen "they don't know how to dodge" both here, and in GW 2, with the claim in GW 2 being "nobody ever dodges", amongst other choice tidbits. Isn't part of the premise here that OL doesn't teach mechanics? Yet, your solution would be to throw players into a group and subject them to "lecturing" or "advising" on how to play? What about the players that see "under x threshold of CP" and quit the group, or worse, kick a player that needs it to advance their story? That'll be "it's ok, because we got what we wanted", or "players should have to grind out the CP before they're allowed to finish their story arcs"? Yeah, that'll go over well, especially given how many of the players in the target audience don't want to spend money on the game because of lag in endgame/group content, right?

Iccotak

@robertthebard
I agree I don’t want sponges, I want enemies that make players think about what they’re doing. Just adding health isn’t going to be enough, the Enemy Ai has to be better. Standing in one spot and attacking is boring (a top complaint about combat in the game) they have to act and react to the player.
Otherwise it’s just a tedious sponge.

I am not advocating Forcing players into a group, I am saying that there should be some difficulty to the extent that players consider their tactics and/or ask for help from one person at least. Not for general questing but for major story encounters at least.
That note you made about difficulty sliders is exactly what we’re seeing people say about dungeons. I think it would be better to have a tier system that works to close the skill gap.

@Sengra that’s what I thought too, maybe not make the story too difficult but enough that it encourages players to get better and/or look for help from others.
I don’t like difficulty sliders concerning overland as I think One Tamriel needs some adjusting as well as enemies & bosses mechanically improved.

A problem however is that, unlike the base game, the DLC that players start in doesn’t offer enough time for growth.
In Vanilla the main quest would check in on you around every 5 levels for a new step and offered a new challenge.
The quest could try scaling to account for the players level thus increasing the challenge the higher the level (1-50 cap)

@Tammany
I think general questing is always going to be the easier content in the game. I think a question worth considering is where some of those quests send the player.
It’s like in Oblivion, sure some of the general quests were pretty simple but there are times when a quest sends you to a ruined castle which has some unexpected surprises.
A problem with the current enemies is that they all act the same. There needs to be more variation between these units.
A mob of goblins in a cave should be different from Draugr in a Nord Tomb.

I think that ZOS could learn more from the single player games.