There is too much separation between story and group content

Foefaller

I doubt ZOS is going to make veteran *overland* mode a thing, because that would risk dividing up the playerbase too much.

However, I could totally see veteran mode extended to delves and public dungeons, or adding a way to repeat harder versions of certain quests ala GW2: All right, you've completed God of Schemes! Now do it at a difficulty that can't been done with a random assortment of gear and skills.

Another way to make content harder/more rewarding on an emotional level is to add mechanics to the fights. DLC Normal mode dungeons don't require significantly better gear and builds than the non-dlc ones, but they are still harder because they often have phases require a greater amount of awareness on behalf of the party.

robertthebard

Foefaller wrote: »

I doubt ZOS is going to make veteran *overland* mode a thing, because that would risk dividing up the playerbase too much.

However, I could totally see veteran mode extended to delves and public dungeons, or adding a way to repeat harder versions of certain quests ala GW2: All right, you've completed God of Schemes! Now do it at a difficulty that can't been done with a random assortment of gear and skills.

Another way to make content harder/more rewarding on an emotional level is to add mechanics to the fights. DLC Normal mode dungeons don't require significantly better gear and builds than the non-dlc ones, but they are still harder because they often have phases require a greater amount of awareness on behalf of the party.

There are a lot of "starter" dungeons, not counting public ones, where players are supposed to be learning these intricacies of group play. It's why we have tiers, and some of them start well before endgame levels. The people that are truly interested in learning this will be trying to get into these dungeons. I say trying, because over the course of the years that I've been playing MMOs, you still have people that expect you have all the right gear, all the right CP, all the right achievements, before they'll let you run in their little group. "I'm not a teacher", or similar things get thrown around.

It's luck of the draw whether they pull a good group or not, or maybe they'll get a guild group together for it, and be fine. If they're unlucky, they're going to come away with a bad feeling about endgame content anyway, and it won't matter, as if that's what they're really into, and they can't play it, they'll just leave. The same with the OP's suggestion about end of story bosses, if someone that's relatively new, or is starting in an Expansion map, can't finish their first story because they need a group for the boss at the end, they're not sticking around either.

MEBengalsFan2001

Iccotak wrote: »

Just because the final boss in Elsweyr was a dragon doesn’t mean it was a cool fight.

Mulaamnir, Laatvulan, and Kaalgrontiid were all clearly designed for new players in mind, the problem with that is that I lose any sense of accomplishment defeating them. Your victory feels handed to you and your praise feels like patronize; “You saved Tamriel” starts to sound like “Who did such a good job? You Did!”

Just because the Main Story isn’t endgame content doesn’t mean it has to be easy.

ZOS tried to have each main boss of Craglorn in a Trial which was met with little success but then again that was because you had to have a party to do anything there, including each quest step to reach those Trials.

In my opinion, this is an MMO and as consequence the threat of the year should take effort to defeat, for both solo or group play styles, otherwise it doesn’t feel earned and I lose any sense of investment and engagement.

You want harder content here is a simple solution. Craft gear that don't have any set bonus. Don't use any enchantments. Don't use any CP. Using on basic white gear and your attribute points I'm sure overland content will be a bit more challenging as you would have less stats, no gear bonus, and lower defenses making content a bit more challenging. Add to limit yourself to only using weaker abilities with light attacks or heavy if you prefer.

There are ways to make content harder for us without the developer getting involved if you want that challenge.

Here is my take on this...players asking for harder content now will come back and ask for that harder content to be adjusted because it is to hard. I have seen this type of request in prior MMOs and typically the ones asking for harder content don't really want harder content, truly harder content.

I say leave it as is. If you want overland content to be harder there is a way and I just provided it.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

Foefaller wrote: »

I doubt ZOS is going to make veteran *overland* mode a thing, because that would risk dividing up the playerbase too much..

You say that as if it would impact anything. The playerbase barely interacts with each other in the overland now. There's just no reason to.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

You want harder content here is a simple solution. Craft gear that don't have any set bonus. Don't use any enchantments. Don't use any CP. Using on basic white gear and your attribute points I'm sure overland content will be a bit more challenging

It really isn't, though...

White gear? No set bonuses? Hell, let's take it a step further and just remove all of our armor/accessories entirely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQIOlvMjsng

Can we please stop pretending like this is an actual solution?

Lysette

in the end what people want is not more challenge but better rewards - they wouldn't take it with just the challenge and no better rewards. this is not about the challenge at all.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

in the end what people want is not more challenge but better rewards - they wouldn't take it with just the challenge and no better rewards. this is not about the challenge at all.

If you’ve read through this thread, or any of the other threads asking for harder story content, you’d know that is not the case.

If content is too hard too early it can be discouraging but if it’s too easy for the majority of overland it can become boring, reward doesn’t matter when everything is face rolled in no time at all.
That’s why there are players who really like PvP, they’re engaged in the challenge of fighting another player - some of them have stated that a major reason they don’t enjoy PvE is because of how easy it is.

Personally when I got hailed & praised for beating Kaalgrontiid I was annoyed because that victory felt handed to me so none of the work I did was actually worth anything.

Kaalgrontiid pet was disappointed because I think that could have been a nice reward for a hard boss fight.

Like I said in the OP

Players want their efforts to feel necessary as well as their rewards & praise to feel earned.
When you make the final antagonist too accessible or easy it removes the tension of the challenge and thus removes any feeling of accomplishment when beating it.

When I do Endgame content do I expect to be rewarded? Yes because I feel that I earned that reward through my hard work.

when I put in below minimum effort and get praised as the “Savior of Tamriel” - it feels disingenuous which breaks my immersion in the story.
It’s also discouraging when being told that the story being marketed to me, that the devs want me to be excited for, feels like their target audience is only new players & casuals.

Look I get that ZOS wants player accessibility and you want to be able to just adventure by yourself having a cakewalk.
But I don’t see why your enjoyment of the story has to come at the expense of my enjoyment of the story, and I’m sure you feel the same vice versa.

If it was an optional instance so we could both get what we wanted, I think I’d be fine with that.
For whatever it’s worth, we know that ZOS is thinking about difficulty options for overland/story content.

Lysette

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

Rukia541

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

And then there comes Norbert Newbie, fresh into the game at level 20, pushing over everything that could be a challenge while you stand there, debuffed and watching how he facerolls your adventure.

Just give us a seperate veteran instance already. This isn't a single player game, your suggestion would only work if everyone goes along with it. We already have many shards if there are too many players in a zone at once. So adding some with + X% to health and damage done on enemies shouldn't be asked too much.

I think it could work, and increase rewards for players in that shard. It sounds like nothing more than a matter of scaling and % tweaking but what do I know. I only know of 1 other game that has ever done this online, the first GW, but everything was a personal instance there other than major cities and who was in your party.

I don't think overland should be difficult in general, only when you want it to be. Take GW2 for example, a lot of the maps are just cancer because you can't stop to smell the roses or relax without being murdered or at least inconvenienced 24/7. I can't stand that ***. Sometimes I just want to faceroll overland, I prefer my challenge to be in instances but hey if they can make a hardmode I'll play that too, when I feel like it.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

Lysette

Rukia541 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

And then there comes Norbert Newbie, fresh into the game at level 20, pushing over everything that could be a challenge while you stand there, debuffed and watching how he facerolls your adventure.

Just give us a seperate veteran instance already. This isn't a single player game, your suggestion would only work if everyone goes along with it. We already have many shards if there are too many players in a zone at once. So adding some with + X% to health and damage done on enemies shouldn't be asked too much.

I think it could work, and increase rewards for players in that shard. It sounds like nothing more than a matter of scaling and % tweaking but what do I know. I only know of 1 other game that has ever done this online, the first GW, but everything was a personal instance there other than major cities and who was in your party.

I don't think overland should be difficult in general, only when you want it to be. Take GW2 for example, a lot of the maps are just cancer because you can't stop to smell the roses or relax without being murdered or at least inconvenienced 24/7. I can't stand that ***. Sometimes I just want to faceroll overland, I prefer my challenge to be in instances but hey if they can make a hardmode I'll play that too, when I feel like it.

there it is again - better rewards. q.e.d.

Rukia541

Lysette wrote: »

Rukia541 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

And then there comes Norbert Newbie, fresh into the game at level 20, pushing over everything that could be a challenge while you stand there, debuffed and watching how he facerolls your adventure.

Just give us a seperate veteran instance already. This isn't a single player game, your suggestion would only work if everyone goes along with it. We already have many shards if there are too many players in a zone at once. So adding some with + X% to health and damage done on enemies shouldn't be asked too much.

I think it could work, and increase rewards for players in that shard. It sounds like nothing more than a matter of scaling and % tweaking but what do I know. I only know of 1 other game that has ever done this online, the first GW, but everything was a personal instance there other than major cities and who was in your party.

I don't think overland should be difficult in general, only when you want it to be. Take GW2 for example, a lot of the maps are just cancer because you can't stop to smell the roses or relax without being murdered or at least inconvenienced 24/7. I can't stand that ***. Sometimes I just want to faceroll overland, I prefer my challenge to be in instances but hey if they can make a hardmode I'll play that too, when I feel like it.

there it is again - better rewards. q.e.d.

What would be the point of a hard mode without better rewards, I'm just curious? Intentionally wasting your own time arbitrarily? Do you do vet dungeons or raids for 0 rewards? lul, its only logical.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

Rukia541 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

And then there comes Norbert Newbie, fresh into the game at level 20, pushing over everything that could be a challenge while you stand there, debuffed and watching how he facerolls your adventure.

Just give us a seperate veteran instance already. This isn't a single player game, your suggestion would only work if everyone goes along with it. We already have many shards if there are too many players in a zone at once. So adding some with + X% to health and damage done on enemies shouldn't be asked too much.

I think it could work, and increase rewards for players in that shard. It sounds like nothing more than a matter of scaling and % tweaking but what do I know. I only know of 1 other game that has ever done this online, the first GW, but everything was a personal instance there other than major cities and who was in your party.

I don't think overland should be difficult in general, only when you want it to be. Take GW2 for example, a lot of the maps are just cancer because you can't stop to smell the roses or relax without being murdered or at least inconvenienced 24/7. I can't stand that ***. Sometimes I just want to faceroll overland, I prefer my challenge to be in instances but hey if they can make a hardmode I'll play that too, when I feel like it.

there it is again - better rewards. q.e.d.

If you have a job and you’re asked to take on more responsibilities wouldn’t you want that time & effort to be appropriately rewarded? You negotiate for a pay raise.

Lysette

.

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

that is exactly why it is a lie - all you want is better rewards and easier farming with less people in concurrence.

Rukia541

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Rukia541 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

And then there comes Norbert Newbie, fresh into the game at level 20, pushing over everything that could be a challenge while you stand there, debuffed and watching how he facerolls your adventure.

Just give us a seperate veteran instance already. This isn't a single player game, your suggestion would only work if everyone goes along with it. We already have many shards if there are too many players in a zone at once. So adding some with + X% to health and damage done on enemies shouldn't be asked too much.

I think it could work, and increase rewards for players in that shard. It sounds like nothing more than a matter of scaling and % tweaking but what do I know. I only know of 1 other game that has ever done this online, the first GW, but everything was a personal instance there other than major cities and who was in your party.

I don't think overland should be difficult in general, only when you want it to be. Take GW2 for example, a lot of the maps are just cancer because you can't stop to smell the roses or relax without being murdered or at least inconvenienced 24/7. I can't stand that ***. Sometimes I just want to faceroll overland, I prefer my challenge to be in instances but hey if they can make a hardmode I'll play that too, when I feel like it.

there it is again - better rewards. q.e.d.

If you have a job and you’re asked to take on more responsibilities wouldn’t you want that time & effort to be appropriately rewarded? You negotiate for a pay raise.

Nah you take those extra responsibilities with same pay for the fun of being challenged! Lysette logic.

Lysette

Rukia541 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Rukia541 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

And then there comes Norbert Newbie, fresh into the game at level 20, pushing over everything that could be a challenge while you stand there, debuffed and watching how he facerolls your adventure.

Just give us a seperate veteran instance already. This isn't a single player game, your suggestion would only work if everyone goes along with it. We already have many shards if there are too many players in a zone at once. So adding some with + X% to health and damage done on enemies shouldn't be asked too much.

I think it could work, and increase rewards for players in that shard. It sounds like nothing more than a matter of scaling and % tweaking but what do I know. I only know of 1 other game that has ever done this online, the first GW, but everything was a personal instance there other than major cities and who was in your party.

I don't think overland should be difficult in general, only when you want it to be. Take GW2 for example, a lot of the maps are just cancer because you can't stop to smell the roses or relax without being murdered or at least inconvenienced 24/7. I can't stand that ***. Sometimes I just want to faceroll overland, I prefer my challenge to be in instances but hey if they can make a hardmode I'll play that too, when I feel like it.

there it is again - better rewards. q.e.d.

If you have a job and you’re asked to take on more responsibilities wouldn’t you want that time & effort to be appropriately rewarded? You negotiate for a pay raise.

Nah you take those extra responsibilities with same pay for the fun of being challenged! Lysette logic.

exactly- then it would be about the challenge.

Lysette

[snip]

I understand completely that this is not about the challenge at all - but about better and easier farming.

[edited to remove quoted content]

Fingolfinn01

Zos are good in the way they get new players, but are terrible at keeping them.

The skill level is dramatic between over land and dlc vet content(dungeons and raids)

It would take a massive investment of time and money to give overland difficulty setting. They said they some ideas about cp changes, but nothing on changing the overland.

I am with you op

Iccotak

@Lysette

exactly- then it would be about the challenge.

That’s not logical and would in fact go against a core pillar of how the game works.

I understand completely that this is not about the challenge at all - but about better and easier farming.

It seems to me that you want to paint it as if there is some underhanded motivation. Because if it’s just about reward then that makes me a liar - but you’re being selective and narrow minded as well as not accounting for what you have said.

Look, You put in the work and you receive a reward. The harder you work the better the reward. That’s how people operate. That’s a cornerstone of life. The game utilizes the reward center of our brain. All games do this.

When ZOS makes a new dungeon or trial, its hard content but if players were told “its hard work and you get nothing for it” then sure people wouldn’t play it.

What about all the people who play PvP?
They have to play PvE content to get better gear which serves the greater reward of being stronger in PvP but they play it because they really enjoy how tough it can be fighting other players. They like the War in Cyrodiil and the fast paced Battlegrounds.

When you do content you get rewarded right? What if you didn’t get gold, items, or experience from doing quests?
What if the characters in the story were indifferent to you or treated you poorly no matter what you did? Would you still play it?

You’re reward is that you get to be the hero of a story, but would you still play it if you didn’t get to be the hero?

What about movies? If it was easy for the hero to defeat the villain would we still enjoy that story? If Iron Man has no struggles would it be a good movie? No because it’s the struggles that made him a better character. It’s the heroes journey. There’s a reason no one likes Mary Sues who win everything with no effort.

That’s how it is for me in the story. The reward and praise I received didn’t feel right for the lack of effort that was necessary to get it. I was told how awesome I was when it felt like I didn’t really do anything.

Lysette

i stay with my thesis - if it would be just about the challenge and to be less boring for you, you would take the challenge without better rewards - that you demand better rewards as well, makes your thesis not truthful.

as for me - I'm not playing for being a hero - i'm an adventurer doing stuff I like to do and stay away from things I don't like. I'n more a vistor to Tamriel and enjoy the landscape and some of the story content - but i couldn't care less about being a heroine. I try to advance very slowly to not get to higher levels quickly - I distribute quests among my characters therefore to advance very slowly and stay mediocre. A result of it is that the content is always appropriate and feels good as it is.

I would even say a key to enjoyable game play is to not overpower oneself - in any game - in sykrim for example one could easily become a god at level 20 and then the rest of the game is pointless. The key to enjoy a game is to stay mediocre to keep it a challenge.

and no, I'm not playing for rewards - I earn my money doing writs and have a quite good life in ESO due to it - I don't care about rewards, i sell that stuff to a npc trader to get rid of it. I craft what I need and make it blue - that is good enough.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

i stay with my thesis - if it would be just about the challenge and to be less boring for you, you would take the challenge without better rewards - that you demand better rewards as well, makes your thesis not truthful.

Here’s what’s happened:
1. I’ve stated that I desire harder story bosses because I find them boring & tedious. If they made them more challenging then the reward & praise I received would actually feel worth it.

2. I also stated that I don’t think current overland content (baseline difficulty) prepares players well enough and could bridge that gap better - whether or not they decide to do Endgame is up to them but I think overland & story could be better.

3. Some people agree with me that the story bosses & overland could be better saying that they find the content too easy to a point that it kills enjoyment of the experience and they also keep encountering players who were used to overland and so were unprepared for dungeons.

4. Not everyone wants that change because they think it would not be fun if it was too hard and/or had to find a group to finish. They like how the story experience currently is. If a change were to occur, my enjoyment of the quest could come at their expense.

5. People have proposed a “Veteran Mode” for Overland/Story like Dungeons and Trials do. That way both play sides could be satisfied.

6. “Normal” and “Veteran” modes that currently exist in the game. They operate under the rule of “Harder work produces more reward”.

7. Players state that if normal difficulty (the baseline) is left alone and a veteran difficulty is added then they feel they should get more reward for doing more work.

8. Logic follows that, given circumstances, if ZOS were to make a “Veteran Overland/Story”, people would expect the reward to be greater because that’s how it works in the rest of the game.

9. I said that’s reasonable however I think that also depends on how much harder “Veteran” is than normal.

There’s still a discussion on the table and I’m working to see from people’s perspective on the issue to brainstorm ideas on what could be done for both casual and Endgame players who want to enjoy story and/or general questing.

So accusing people of lying is not productive and I also find to be an unreasonable conclusion as well as disingenuous considering what other people have contributed to the table.

Lysette

fact is still that you wouldn't take the challenge without better rewards - isn't it. would you take it without better rewards?

and if you insist on better rewards it is not just about the challenge, no matter what you claim.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

fact is still that you wouldn't take the challenge without better rewards - isn't it. would you take it without better rewards?

and if you insist on better rewards it is not just about the challenge, no matter what you claim.

Did you it read what I just wrote?

I’ve stated that I desire harder story bosses because I find them boring & tedious. If they made them more challenging then the reward & praise I received would actually feel worth it.

So yes I’d be happy with a harder boss because then I feel that the experience would be equal to the already existing reward.
That’s my perspective but it’s not just about me.

If you are going to have a discussion then make the effort to read the full reply. Otherwise it’s seems to me you don’t want a discussion.

Lysette

i would be all for it if there is no better reward involved. people could have it as hard as they want, just no better rewards. But I think as well that you are on your own when it comes to this - people will demand better rewards and there is the problem, creating an even greater gap.

Lysette

btw the gap between casuals and elite players can never be bridged anyway. casuals have like 10-15hrs max per week to play, an elite player does that nearly on a daily base. This does not allow for grinding or gear farming - casuals can't do that and it would be incredibly boring as well.

LuxiasCaelum13

Overland and story quest lines are ok as they are.

Something everyone seems to miss is the fact that the more you play the better you become. If you are a veteran player, with experience, high lvl chars and good gear, obviously you'll find yourself a lot more powerful than delve and story bosses.
The thing is: that's the whole point in not only RPGs, but also all games. You start being a homeless adventurer without any idea of what to do, and the more you play and improve you should be far better than most of the regular enemies. Imagine being the one who vanquised Molag Bal, cleansed the White-Gold tower, defeated king Narilmor, slayed Z'maja and god knows how many abominations only to find that a random bandit boss in a random cave can display a power level enough to make the Vestige have trouble. If that doesn't ruin inmersion i don't know what does. Increasing your power is part of the fantasy and the inmersion, because it allow the player to compare how they were before and how they are now, creating the feeling of being powerful, so the more powerful enemies you defeat the better the feeling, but everything in the context of the power creep stablished between the enemies you face through the game.

If you want a challenge you have vet dungeons, trials and arenas, there is no reason to make different difficulties to overland content. If you find those challenges boring...that's another thing. Overland is nothing more than a procedure to keep low level players exploring. Enter a delve with *** gear, no cp and a few bunch of skills and see. Looks like people have forgotten how the game felt when we were new. I don't remember delve bosses to be specially difficult, but in some cases it gave me enough trouble to make me want to improve. Not everything in the game has to be at the same level as a legit dungeon.

Also, overland should be more difficult to prepare players for what is to come in vet dungeons and harder content? That doesn't make any sense. First, if you want to prepare for vet dungeons and trials play first the normal ones, you only need to know that vet only inflates their stats, while the mechanics remain the same, that's all the preparation people needs. Also, again, not everything has to be at the same difficulty level. All games need to have different segments with their own pacing, to not make everything look the same. Weaker enemies are meant to give players a brief respite, to let them to explore the world without having to care too much for the combat, allowing them to appreciate the environment, the delve design, and even some grinding, but when it comes to the thrill of the battle, vet dungeons and trials are exactly what you want, not only because of the combat per sé, but because of the contrast between the aforementioned weaker enemies and the superboss. If i enter vMA i expect the enemies to be infernal monstrosities, but if i enter knife ear grotto i don't expect some random bandit to kick my ass.

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

Hmm, seems more than a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

AlAbaster

Lysette wrote: »

i bet that about 2/3 of the player base is definitely seeing it as such - a single player game with optional ability to group up with others on rare occasions or with specific friends - otherwise played as an RPG where the elder scrolls came from. ... I want to see and experience Tamriel just like it has been for decades on "normal" dificulty - a fantasy cake walk and fun.

Bingo! This game provides exactly the same fun every Elder Scrolls game ever has, but with the ability to group up with my wife when she gets done being the raid leader of a WoW guild, which is very fun.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

Hmm, seems more than a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

Not at all
1. If a person put in extensive hard work and gets nothing for their efforts then they feel that all the work they put in was meaningless
2. If a person puts in minimal effort but receives great rewards then that reward feels less valuable because they didn’t really do anything to get it.

The reward has to be proportional to the time & effort the person put in to accomplish the task.

Orphium

vMA. This was my turning point. I spent days trying to get my first clear. Gave up, got 100 extra CP and came back. Still took a day, but by the end I felt prepared to tackle anything. While it’s still not exactly true, it gave me an understanding of plenty of mechanics, how important they are, dodging, blocking, kiting, understanding my abilities and tweaking my char to be able to clear vMA. However, I had no idea vMA existed until I say a weird weapon called Maelstrom inferno staff appearing in plenty of builds I found online.
My experience when I was a new player: This was completely different from any experience prior, since there should be hardly any challenge before. Can’t kill world boss? Spam in chat that it is up and need help, and 10 mins later would be cleared. Dungeons? If the first would fail, in the second would appear a high CP player and solo it basically. BGs? Queue until I got a “good group” and be done with the daily.
Discovered the utilities of pledges because I saw online that the passives were worth while, maxed Mages guild and Psijic because the builds online had skills from there. Only much much later on I found out that I could actually go to normal trials with random people just by reading in zone chat in craglorn. Surely things were mentioned by the game but I assumed they’d be as trivial as the quests I was doing, and I saw no reason to invest my time until I found out myself why they are needed.

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

Hmm, seems more than a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

Not at all
1. If a person put in extensive hard work and gets nothing for their efforts then they feel that all the work they put in was meaningless
2. If a person puts in minimal effort but receives great rewards then that reward feels less valuable because they didn’t really do anything to get it.

The reward has to be proportional to the time & effort the person put in to accomplish the task.

Which is more than a bit contradictory to "nobody is looking for additional rewards". If one were, in fact, to read through the other threads, they'd see that this claim runs counter to what we'd find. There are, in fact, players that insist it be paid better than normal content. I'll do you one better: It's not even limited to ESO. DDO had the same problem. "We need harder content because the game's too easy", SSG: "We're working on a new difficulty mode called Reaper". Community: "if there aren't increased rewards, it won't be worth it to run". Nature of the beast mate, I've seen it way too many times to believe anything else, and you're already laying the ground work for it with your closing statement.

Here's what it actually says: the harder I have to work the better I should be paid.

That's absolutely contradictory to "it should be harder with no additional rewards", isn't it?