There is too much separation between story and group content

Michae

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

Hmm, seems more than a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

Not at all
1. If a person put in extensive hard work and gets nothing for their efforts then they feel that all the work they put in was meaningless
2. If a person puts in minimal effort but receives great rewards then that reward feels less valuable because they didn’t really do anything to get it.

The reward has to be proportional to the time & effort the person put in to accomplish the task.

I think you're missing the point with your solo dungeon example entirely. People who opt for solo dungeons say they are fine with no rewards only to please the tryhards who would riot otherwise. They are truly in this for the experience and experience alone, they want to get through the dungeons at their own pace, listening to the dialogues and looking at enviroments. So if the increased difficulty was only about the challenge and immersion there wouldn't be really a need for much greater rewards, the experience would be a reward in itself. Also you speak from a standpoint of someone who probably has a lot of time to play and "git gud". Many players, myself included, don't have that time luxury. I play ESO since 2016, Icompleted the vanilla MQ on one character, when fighting Molag Bal I was around level 40, then I completed Morrowind and was level 47. Didn't rush, didn't power level, didn't research sets and rotations. I only got my first CP at the end of 2018, now as of 2020 I finally hit CP 810 and have maybe at least a decent set on my main. So yeah, not everyone storms through the content like the elites, I'd say most people go through a route like mine, and the game design shows that is most probably the case. Soloable content is accesible since grouping up requires time which many adults with jobs just don't have that much.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

Hmm, seems more than a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

Not at all
1. If a person put in extensive hard work and gets nothing for their efforts then they feel that all the work they put in was meaningless
2. If a person puts in minimal effort but receives great rewards then that reward feels less valuable because they didn’t really do anything to get it.

The reward has to be proportional to the time & effort the person put in to accomplish the task.

Which is more than a bit contradictory to "nobody is looking for additional rewards". If one were, in fact, to read through the other threads, they'd see that this claim runs counter to what we'd find. There are, in fact, players that insist it be paid better than normal content. I'll do you one better: It's not even limited to ESO. DDO had the same problem. "We need harder content because the game's too easy", SSG: "We're working on a new difficulty mode called Reaper". Community: "if there aren't increased rewards, it won't be worth it to run". Nature of the beast mate, I've seen it way too many times to believe anything else, and you're already laying the ground work for it with your closing statement.

Here's what it actually says: the harder I have to work the better I should be paid.

That's absolutely contradictory to "it should be harder with no additional rewards", isn't it?

1. I never said nobody is looking for additional rewards. In my case I felt what I was getting in the main story of Elsweyr was too much for what I had done. (Multi-Part house, cool pet, titles, etc. all seemed like things I should have had to work harder for)
2. I said ESO could be better balanced, others brought up a “Vet mode” as a possible solution.

Whether there is more reward for more work in overland depends on whether they balance the existing game or create a completely separate “Veteran” instance

What you described is not changing one game into a harder game or balancing existing content (which I mentioned in OP is a path that ZOS could take)
What you described was a game that created a whole new optional instance that’s harder.

Look at World of Warcraft.
Sure people got better at the game but we know from comparison that vanilla is actually harder than retail.
The game attracted new customers but many players left because of how easy the game had become.
WoW classic server comes out and subscriptions shoot up, old players come back because the game has become a challenge again.
Not just gameplay but also rewards, good things were no longer just being handed to players so getting a better piece of gear was actually meaningful.
It took a lot more work to get gear in classic that could take a character in retail about an hour or two to get. The game got easier and so the work to get the gear felt less meaningful. It’s a major reason why so many prefer classic to retail.

The general quest reward system in ESO is better now in comparison to launch but there is a degree of difficulty that people miss from leveling as well as the story bosses like Doshia, Mannimarco, and Molag Bal as well as some missions.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

That served craglorn well didnt it

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

every time i mention that no reward option with higher challenge people tend to say but we certainly want better rewards as well, that is just how it always has been - they are misleading with their statements - all they want is better and possibly more easy farming.

At the same time look at the discussions about solo mode for dungeons (easy for someone to go through for the story, like a delve) and one of the most repeated points is that a solo mode should not have any of the usual dungeon rewards because they wouldn’t have earned it.
The reward should be proportional to the effort put in.

People don’t like hard work with no reward but at the same time they don’t like being handed rewarded for no work.

Hmm, seems more than a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

Not at all
1. If a person put in extensive hard work and gets nothing for their efforts then they feel that all the work they put in was meaningless
2. If a person puts in minimal effort but receives great rewards then that reward feels less valuable because they didn’t really do anything to get it.

The reward has to be proportional to the time & effort the person put in to accomplish the task.

Which is more than a bit contradictory to "nobody is looking for additional rewards". If one were, in fact, to read through the other threads, they'd see that this claim runs counter to what we'd find. There are, in fact, players that insist it be paid better than normal content. I'll do you one better: It's not even limited to ESO. DDO had the same problem. "We need harder content because the game's too easy", SSG: "We're working on a new difficulty mode called Reaper". Community: "if there aren't increased rewards, it won't be worth it to run". Nature of the beast mate, I've seen it way too many times to believe anything else, and you're already laying the ground work for it with your closing statement.

Here's what it actually says: the harder I have to work the better I should be paid.

That's absolutely contradictory to "it should be harder with no additional rewards", isn't it?

1. I never said nobody is looking for additional rewards. In my case I felt what I was getting in the main story of Elsweyr was too much for what I had done. (Multi-Part house, cool pet, titles, etc. all seemed like things I should have had to work harder for)
2. I said ESO could be better balanced, others brought up a “Vet mode” as a possible solution.

Whether there is more reward for more work in overland depends on whether they balance the existing game or create a completely separate “Veteran” instance

What you described is not changing one game into a harder game or balancing existing content (which I mentioned in OP is a path that ZOS could take)
What you described was a game that created a whole new optional instance that’s harder.

Look at World of Warcraft.
Sure people got better at the game but we know from comparison that vanilla is actually harder than retail.
The game attracted new customers but many players left because of how easy the game had become.
WoW classic server comes out and subscriptions shoot up, old players come back because the game has become a challenge again.
Not just gameplay but also rewards, good things were no longer just being handed to players so getting a better piece of gear was actually meaningful.
It took a lot more work to get gear in classic that could take a character in retail about an hour or two to get. The game got easier and so the work to get the gear felt less meaningful. It’s a major reason why so many prefer classic to retail.

The general quest reward system in ESO is better now in comparison to launch but there is a degree of difficulty that people miss from leveling as well as the story bosses like Doshia, Mannimarco, and Molag Bal as well as some missions.

I'm too old to fall for this. I remember how Blizzard had to dumb down Vanilla WoW. Their willingness to do so was what drew 10s of millions of players, and retained a large portion of that. You read what I say, but you miss the subtext: I've been around the block in MMOs quite a few times. You say

What you described is not changing one game into a harder game or balancing existing content (which I mentioned in OP is a path that ZOS could take)
What you described was a game that created a whole new optional instance that’s harder.

all while talking about making story end bosses harder. Instanced content vs instanced content. Hmm, 2 + 2 = 4? Seems to add up to the same thing to me.

You say you didn't claim that everyone isn't looking for additional rewards, but the problem is that, as I said, you're already laying the ground work for additional rewards with "the harder I work, the more I should be paid". Here's the real kicker: I don't disagree with the sentiment, I feel much the same way, but I do disagree with trying to hide it behind "but I just want more "balance".", because "balance" has very little to do with what you're looking for. "Feeling like I earned it" isn't "balance".

Then there's the whole premise of the thread to begin with, right? Your solution to the gap between story and group content is to make story content require a group? Here's the problem: So we wind up in a group for some story content, but you struggled with Craglorn, I didn't, and I vote kick you because you're not skilled enough to be in my group. Am I being too harsh? Should I have to carry you through your story, or should you be able to complete it w/out having to worry about not meeting someone else's standards? If you answer the latter, then this thread was a giant waste of time, wasn't it?

That's the rub here mate. There are people here that will kick someone for "not having enough CP" or for "you took too long to clear that trash". As I stated earlier, this is fine in endgame content, where the content is optional. You tried to counter with "but I'm not trying to force grouping, just to make them maybe need a friend to do it", of course ignoring that this is, in fact, forcing a player into a grouping situation for story content. Pro tip: Requiring more than one player for content is group content.

Then there's the "what about people that still steamroll through it anyway" crowd? Some of us are that good, and some are even better than that. What's the target? Push it too far, and based on your own posts about Craglorn, you won't be able to complete storylines. Are you then going to be back here calling for nerfs, despite getting what you asked for? I've seen that happen, and my inability to not laugh them off the forums cost me a forum account. Sadly, if you aim too low, these threads will never go away.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

Lysette wrote: »

in the end what people want is not more challenge but better rewards - they wouldn't take it with just the challenge and no better rewards. this is not about the challenge at all.

That's funny, because that's basically how SWTOR has been handling it's difficulty settings for years and nobody has an issue with it there. FF14's solo instances and boss fights throughout the story are handed extremely well and again, gear isn't a factor (gear doesn't even drop in those most of the time).

So no, some of us just want to do quests without falling asleep.

Lysette

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

in the end what people want is not more challenge but better rewards - they wouldn't take it with just the challenge and no better rewards. this is not about the challenge at all.

That's funny, because that's basically how SWTOR has been handling it's difficulty settings for years and nobody has an issue with it there. FF14's solo instances and boss fights throughout the story are handed extremely well and again, gear isn't a factor (gear doesn't even drop in those most of the time).

So no, some of us just want to do quests without falling asleep.

you see from this discussion how it goes -first claim to just want more challenge and then later they come up with more reward for more effort - you guys do not fool me with it, it is just about better rewards and easier farming.

robertthebard

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

in the end what people want is not more challenge but better rewards - they wouldn't take it with just the challenge and no better rewards. this is not about the challenge at all.

That's funny, because that's basically how SWTOR has been handling it's difficulty settings for years and nobody has an issue with it there. FF14's solo instances and boss fights are handed extremely well and again, gear isn't a factor (gear doesn't even drop in those most of the time).

So no, some of us just want to do quests without falling asleep.

Do you even swtor bro? People complain all the time about how they should be able to steamroll content that they should have out leveled. A lot of us just continue steamrolling the content in spite of their claims. People are currently carrying on about how endgame gear can literally drop from anything you run, and complaining about how the Conquest system is broken because it doesn't do something that it never did, and encourage group content. They totally believe that it should be like it was, and be locked behind specific content, but that's not the case any more. Gear drops are based on your current gear score. The higher your score, the better the drops, and it doesn't matter if it's a starter planet Heroic, or an endgame NiM operation.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

robertthebard wrote: »

Do you even swtor bro? People complain all the time about how they should be able to steamroll content that they should have out leveled. A lot of us just continue steamrolling the content in spite of their claims. People are currently carrying on about how endgame gear can literally drop from anything you run, and complaining about how the Conquest system is broken because it doesn't do something that it never did, and encourage group content. They totally believe that it should be like it was, and be locked behind specific content, but that's not the case any more. Gear drops are based on your current gear score. The higher your score, the better the drops, and it doesn't matter if it's a starter planet Heroic, or an endgame NiM operation.

Ah okay. I haven't played SWTOR in a while. Last I played, higher level story mode didn't give you anything extra (maybe a little more xp?)

Lysette wrote: »

you see from this discussion how it goes -first claim to just want more challenge and then later they come up with more reward for more effort - you guys do not fool me with it, it is just about better rewards and easier farming.

Don't ignore what I actually said so you can decide what I, "really" meant.

robertthebard

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Do you even swtor bro? People complain all the time about how they should be able to steamroll content that they should have out leveled. A lot of us just continue steamrolling the content in spite of their claims. People are currently carrying on about how endgame gear can literally drop from anything you run, and complaining about how the Conquest system is broken because it doesn't do something that it never did, and encourage group content. They totally believe that it should be like it was, and be locked behind specific content, but that's not the case any more. Gear drops are based on your current gear score. The higher your score, the better the drops, and it doesn't matter if it's a starter planet Heroic, or an endgame NiM operation.

Ah okay. I haven't played SWTOR in a while. Last I played, higher level story mode didn't give you anything extra (maybe a little more xp?)

Lysette wrote: »

you see from this discussion how it goes -first claim to just want more challenge and then later they come up with more reward for more effort - you guys do not fool me with it, it is just about better rewards and easier farming.

Don't ignore what I actually said so you can decide what I, "really" meant.

It's a "relatively" recent change, within the last year, or a bit less, not sure exactly. I'm as sporadic there as I am here... For me, I sort of like the new system, it allows everyone to get that gear, eventually. The set pieces that are now tied to skins, instead of the armorings, as the old system was, can, for the most part, be purchased from vendors on the fleet even. Just shells, so you're free to upgrade them to whatever you have currently, and still get the full set bonuses, once you have the full set.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

and no, I'm not playing for rewards - I earn my money doing writs and have a quite good life in ESO due to it - I don't care about rewards, i sell that stuff to a npc trader to get rid of it. I craft what I need and make it blue - that is good enough.

You say you don’t do things for rewards then proceeds to describe doing an activity for the reward.

Lysette wrote: »

I would even say a key to enjoyable game play is to not overpower oneself - in any game - in sykrim for example one could easily become a god at level 20 and then the rest of the game is pointless. The key to enjoy a game is to stay mediocre to keep it a challenge.

If you’re playing on novice sure you’d be a god by level 20. Don’t forget that your Skyrim play style was a very niche modded experience and does not cover the vast majority of players as others have pointed out.

Lysette wrote: »

I try to advance very slowly to not get to higher levels quickly - I distribute quests among my characters therefore to advance very slowly and stay mediocre. A result of it is that the content is always appropriate and feels good as it is.

Looking at your ESO play style I would say that it definitely doesn’t align with the majority as it’s purposefully limiting yourself from a good percentage of the existing content.

You purposefully limit yourself to make the existing content still somewhat challenging and not boring, when the game’s systems shouldn't force you to have to gimp yourself to that extent just to make the overland/story more engaging.
People generally don’t want their characters to be mediocre as they would find that experience...mediocre.

Lysette wrote: »

as for me - I'm not playing for being a hero - i'm an adventurer doing stuff I like to do and stay away from things I don't like. I'n more a vistor to Tamriel and enjoy the landscape and some of the story content - but i couldn't care less about being a heroine.

To refer to earlier..

then again i don't want to die once -- a hero who died is not a hero - so permadeath game play. i either get through it in total without to die or I start a new game

Lysette wrote: »

btw the gap between casuals and elite players can never be bridged anyway. casuals have like 10-15hrs max per week to play, an elite player does that nearly on a daily base. This does not allow for grinding or gear farming - casuals can't do that and it would be incredibly boring as well.

Doesn’t mean ZOS shouldn’t try to help players who do want to get into that content.
I’m not an elite, I usually play on end of weekdays and through the weekend.
I could still manage to get this content done.

Now if you can’t we know that’s two factors
1. Poor internet
2. How you built your character, which you did purposefully.

There’s more trials and vet dungeons I haven’t done sure I want the gear to make my characters better / look cooler but I’m motivated to beat them because I want that experience I want the satisfaction of beating a challenge. But I know it’s not unreachable or unreasonable, you just have to put in the time & effort.

Lysette wrote: »

you see from this discussion how it goes -first claim to just want more challenge and then later they come up with more reward for more effort - you guys do not fool me with it, it is just about better rewards and easier farming.

So far you’re argument has been that ZOS should cater to your specific play style and situation of poor internet at the expense of other players.
But then you have shown throughout this thread to blatantly ignore what people are telling you because it suits your narrative.

EDITED for Spelling & Grammar

Iccotak

I'm too old to fall for this. I remember how Blizzard had to dumb down Vanilla WoW. Their willingness to do so was what drew 10s of millions of players, and retained a large portion of that. You read what I say, but you miss the subtext: I've been around the block in MMOs quite a few times.

Well I don’t know what to tell you because one of the top 10 reasons but I keep hearing that long time players love vanilla WoW is because it’s harder and provides more challenge.

You say you didn't claim that everyone isn't looking for additional rewards, but the problem is that, as I said, you're already laying the ground work for additional rewards with "the harder I work, the more I should be paid". Here's the real kicker: I don't disagree with the sentiment, I feel much the same way, but I do disagree with trying to hide it behind "but I just want more "balance".", because "balance" has very little to do with what you're looking for. "Feeling like I earned it" isn't "balance".

Working to find a way to make story content more difficult in a way that satisfies people of varying play styles is not trying to “hide it”.
I’ve said that I felt that the rewards & praise from the story are greater than the effort I effort I put in so it doesn’t actually feel earned.
In contrast when I beat Molag Bal I got some reward but it felt appropriately difficult in solo for a “Savior of Tamriel” moment.
So to me there’s an imbalance in the story.

However, I understand the logic that if I’m going to ask that the story be harder or have a hard mode then people are going to want more reward as a consequence.
There’s no avoiding that and it’s reasonable, to some extent.

Then there’s the whole premise of the thread to begin with, right? Your solution to the gap between story and group content is to make story content require a group?

Nope, not once did I ever say that I would force or require a group to do story content. Stop putting words in my mouth.
There is a difference between encourage and force.

Here’s the problem: So we wind up in a group for some story content, but you struggled with Craglorn, I didn't, and I vote kick you because you're not skilled enough to be in my group. Am I being too harsh? Should I have to carry you through your story, or should you be able to complete it w/out having to worry about not meeting someone else's standards?

What I have said multiple times is that the reason craglorn failed, even according to the developers, is that because the game required you to have a group to play content a majority of people weren’t playing it.
That’s why they changed it to be more friendly for solo players.

If the developers changed the existing content in all zones, I would not like them to do their “adventure zone“ experiment because, as other players have stated, being forced to group would not make them want to play the game.

If the developers made a “veteran mode“ instance then maybe they could play around more with their Adventure zone concept.

all while talking about making story end bosses harder. Instanced content vs instanced content. Hmm, 2 + 2 = 4? Seems to add up to the same thing to me.

There is a difference between adjusting the baseline difficulty as opposed to making a completely different harder instance which is optional.
It’s the concept that much of this discussion has hinged on.

If the developers were to only change the baseline difficulty of overland and story content then I would hope that it’s not too difficult for players who just want to quest and have no interest in endgame.
It’s hard enough that it provides a challenge in some areas and people will group if they want to but it would also be a perfectly valid play style to do it on your own.
A balance between what we have in “One Tamriel” and how hard the game used to be.

There are people here that will kick someone for "not having enough CP" or for "you took too long to clear that trash". As I stated earlier, this is fine in endgame content, where the content is optional.

If a Veteran Overland is optional and, in that separate instance, you need a group to beat the final boss, then I accept that a risk is people having standards for members of their group. Same way that I accept that risk when doing endgame.

You tried to counter with "but I'm not trying to force grouping, just to make them maybe need a friend to do it", of course ignoring that this is, in fact, forcing a player into a grouping situation for story content.

This entire argument depends completely on the “veteran mode” hypothetical.
If people complained about about “Veteran mode” being too hard or needing a group then I’d say find a guild and/or get better because you chose to play Veteran.

What’s the target? Push it too far, and based on your own posts about Craglorn, you won't be able to complete storylines. Are you then going to be back here calling for nerfs, despite getting what you asked for?

Me personally? If it was a “Veteran Mode” then No, I would not be calling for nerfs because the underlying assumption is that I should just get better at the game as well as find a group of people to play with for the occasional help.

robertthebard

So nothing you're proposing does anything to close this gap your premise implies, because it's all optional. So this thread has been a gigantic waste of time, other than it did feed my daedric prince.

So Joe Casual plays the game all the way to endgame, tries to get into group content, and is met in exactly the same way they are now, meaning that the devs have wasted that development time to satisfy x % of players that may actually use it. A percentage that may not even include you, depending on where they set the bar. If I were sitting in my home office, contemplating this very scenario, I'd choose to ignore it, and I'd use what happened with Craglorn as an example of why.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

That served craglorn well didnt it

Iccotak

anyway let's say ZOS makes a Veteran Instance of Tamriel

This veteran instance takes some cues from Craglorn, taking aspects of Adventure Zones and applying it to the existing zones.
Meaning;
- More enemies in a mob
- Enemies have more health & deal more damage
- Enemies have more mechanics/tactics/abilities
- Veteran Delve Bosses
- Veteran World Bosses that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Dolmens that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Story Bosses are harder (more health & damage dealt, more mechanics + a HM)

Player of any level can enter this instance but are warned the content is harder and might need friends to help complete content.
So if a new/casual player feels that the current content is too easy and/or want to try out a zone with more challenge well they can switch over to Veteran to try it out.

a question is rewards
People have brought up that a possible problem is people using Vet mode for farming gear more efficiently.
In my opinion the current gear reward system is in a good spot and if the goal is challenge, then increased monetary reward should not the priority.
Also long time players who have already completed the zones & quests have no reason to return so, besides gear, what would make players interested in going back with their existing characters?

Just like Veteran Dungeons & Trials - Add Achievements & Cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
Make a list of achievements for each Boss & group content of each zone.
- Beat all Vet Delves
- Beat the Vet Public Dungeon
- Beat all Vet World Bosses
- Beat all Vet Dolmens (or beat them X number of times)
- Beat the Vet Story Boss

Add achievements for the Story Boss to make players want to go back and repeat the fight
- Speed run
- No Death
- Hard Mode
Something like we see in dungeons
Image Example of achievement challenges for the Fang Lair Dungeon

NOTE: The Story Boss encounters in Vet mode would have to be re-done to some extent to introduce new mechanics & challenges.

What kind of cosmetics? Like Dungeons & Trials
- Titles
- Colors
- Head items (hat, hair, facial hair, face markings, adornments, etc)
- Skins
- Costumes
- Collectibles
- Pets
- Personalities
- Mounts
- House

EDIT: The reason for this is so then if their goal is to farm gear then it doesn't matter which one they play in. If they want a faster gear grind then Normal would be more efficient and thus this doesn't split the players as much as if Vet Zones offered more gear rewards.

HowlKimchi

Iccotak wrote: »

anyway let's say ZOS makes a Veteran Instance of Tamriel

This veteran instance takes some cues from Craglorn, taking aspects of Adventure Zones and applying it to the existing zones.
Meaning;
- More enemies in a mob
- Enemies have more health & deal more damage
- Enemies have more mechanics/tactics/abilities
- Veteran Delve Bosses
- Veteran World Bosses that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Dolmens that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Story Bosses are harder (more health & damage dealt, more mechanics + a HM)

Player of any level can enter this instance but are warned the content is harder and might need friends to help complete content.
So if a new/casual player feels that the current content is too easy and/or want to try out a zone with more challenge well they can switch over to Veteran to try it out.

a question is rewards
People have brought up that a possible problem is people using Vet mode for farming gear more efficiently.
In my opinion the current gear reward system is in a good spot and if the goal is challenge, then increased monetary reward should not the priority.
Also long time players who have already completed the zones & quests have no reason to return so, besides gear, what would make players interested in going back with their existing characters?

Just like Veteran Dungeons & Trials - Add Achievements & Cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
Make a list of achievements for each Boss & group content of each zone.
- Beat all Vet Delves
- Beat the Vet Public Dungeon
- Beat all Vet World Bosses
- Beat all Vet Dolmens (or beat them X number of times)
- Beat the Vet Story Boss

Add achievements for the Story Boss to make players want to go back and repeat the fight
- Speed run
- No Death
- Hard Mode
Something like we see in dungeons
Image Example of achievement challenges for the Fang Lair Dungeon

NOTE: The Story Boss encounters in Vet mode would have to be re-done to some extent to introduce new mechanics & challenges.

What kind of cosmetics? Like Dungeons & Trials
- Titles
- Colors
- Head items (hat, hair, facial hair, face markings, adornments, etc)
- Skins
- Costumes
- Collectibles
- Pets
- Personalities
- Mounts
- House

EDIT: The reason for this is so then if their goal is to farm gear then it doesn't matter which one they play in. If they want a faster gear grind then Normal would be more efficient and thus this doesn't split the players as much as if Vet Zones offered more gear rewards.

This would be perfect. Having to have friends with you to be able to efficiently hunt down items in overland content is old school mmo and I love it.

Everest_Lionheart

Last night I had a great experience in two ways and it relates directly to challenging content. I was running through Alik’r last night soloing WB’s which I find can be a challenge on my stamwarden because I have to manage my rss, bar swap properly keep my buffs up, self heal and be aware of mechanics. To me it’s fun to do this, some bosses are easier than others because the mechanics are telegraphed or the bosses can be cheesed.

After running through I doubled back to pick up a few skyshards and decided to give another boss a second go for fun. A healer showed up, a damn good healer too keeping buffs and heals up the whole time which allowed me to go straight DPS on the WB. Turns out he was clearing a few more to get then achievement as well so we went through another 3 together. It was fun to do a battle fully buffed and even though the bosses felt like easy mode at that point it’s interesting to see how good players in their roles really change the game. It’s the most overland fun I’ve had in a while.

So contrast those battles against the regular OL stuff. I don’t really want to have much of a slog between the harder stuff. I actually find some of the OL stuff tedious for the sake of being tedious. Like half the towns you have to rescue full of zombies, bandits, etc. There is no making that stuff harder only more tedious. Though one of my characters is so AOE heavy I can cast and run through and everything just dies. Melee characters have to work a little at least.

Anyway if you are looking for more challenge, go seek the challenges, they are available and don’t necessarily require anyone to play veteran content.

Katahdin

HaruKamui wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

anyway let's say ZOS makes a Veteran Instance of Tamriel

This veteran instance takes some cues from Craglorn, taking aspects of Adventure Zones and applying it to the existing zones.
Meaning;
- More enemies in a mob
- Enemies have more health & deal more damage
- Enemies have more mechanics/tactics/abilities
- Veteran Delve Bosses
- Veteran World Bosses that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Dolmens that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Story Bosses are harder (more health & damage dealt, more mechanics + a HM)

Player of any level can enter this instance but are warned the content is harder and might need friends to help complete content.
So if a new/casual player feels that the current content is too easy and/or want to try out a zone with more challenge well they can switch over to Veteran to try it out.

a question is rewards
People have brought up that a possible problem is people using Vet mode for farming gear more efficiently.
In my opinion the current gear reward system is in a good spot and if the goal is challenge, then increased monetary reward should not the priority.
Also long time players who have already completed the zones & quests have no reason to return so, besides gear, what would make players interested in going back with their existing characters?

Just like Veteran Dungeons & Trials - Add Achievements & Cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
Make a list of achievements for each Boss & group content of each zone.
- Beat all Vet Delves
- Beat the Vet Public Dungeon
- Beat all Vet World Bosses
- Beat all Vet Dolmens (or beat them X number of times)
- Beat the Vet Story Boss

Add achievements for the Story Boss to make players want to go back and repeat the fight
- Speed run
- No Death
- Hard Mode
Something like we see in dungeons
Image Example of achievement challenges for the Fang Lair Dungeon

NOTE: The Story Boss encounters in Vet mode would have to be re-done to some extent to introduce new mechanics & challenges.

What kind of cosmetics? Like Dungeons & Trials
- Titles
- Colors
- Head items (hat, hair, facial hair, face markings, adornments, etc)
- Skins
- Costumes
- Collectibles
- Pets
- Personalities
- Mounts
- House

EDIT: The reason for this is so then if their goal is to farm gear then it doesn't matter which one they play in. If they want a faster gear grind then Normal would be more efficient and thus this doesn't split the players as much as if Vet Zones offered more gear rewards.

This would be perfect. Having to have friends with you to be able to efficiently hunt down items in overland content is old school mmo and I love it.

having to schedule the same four people to follow a story line and maybe get one day a week where youre all available sucks.
It never worked for Craglorn. THey had forced grouping and you all had to be at the same step in the story so you all could progress. Craglorn was a wasteland before they changed it. Veteran zones before One Tamriel were also deserted waste lands. Hardly anyone played them and most complainted bitterly about them and how there was hardly anyone in those zones. I dont see them doing another zone like that again.

Sylvermynx

Katahdin wrote: »

having to schedule the same four people to follow a story line and maybe get one day a week where youre all available sucks.
It never worked for Craglorn. THey had forced grouping and you all had to be at the same step in the story so you all could progress. Craglorn was a wasteland before they changed it. Veteran zones before One Tamriel were also deserted waste lands. Hardly anyone played them and most complainted bitterly about them and how there was hardly anyone in those zones. I dont see them doing another zone like that again.

This is why I got burned out on WoW and RIFT instances. Sure, it was all guild (MY guilds, my family, my friends) but we were at that time spread all over the world (no joke), and it was DAMNED hard to get enough of us together on any given day, night, weekend, whenever to actually DO the instance.

It wasn't the instances - it was the complications of getting people together to do them. I had people in 5 TZs in the US and Canada; people in Germany, people in Japan, people in Australia. It was NOT FUN. The instances were fun; wrangling bodies was the unfun part.

Iccotak

Katahdin wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

anyway let's say ZOS makes a Veteran Instance of Tamriel

This veteran instance takes some cues from Craglorn, taking aspects of Adventure Zones and applying it to the existing zones.
Meaning;
- More enemies in a mob
- Enemies have more health & deal more damage
- Enemies have more mechanics/tactics/abilities
- Veteran Delve Bosses
- Veteran World Bosses that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Dolmens that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Story Bosses are harder (more health & damage dealt, more mechanics + a HM)

Player of any level can enter this instance but are warned the content is harder and might need friends to help complete content.
So if a new/casual player feels that the current content is too easy and/or want to try out a zone with more challenge well they can switch over to Veteran to try it out.

a question is rewards
People have brought up that a possible problem is people using Vet mode for farming gear more efficiently.
In my opinion the current gear reward system is in a good spot and if the goal is challenge, then increased monetary reward should not the priority.
Also long time players who have already completed the zones & quests have no reason to return so, besides gear, what would make players interested in going back with their existing characters?

Just like Veteran Dungeons & Trials - Add Achievements & Cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
Make a list of achievements for each Boss & group content of each zone.
- Beat all Vet Delves
- Beat the Vet Public Dungeon
- Beat all Vet World Bosses
- Beat all Vet Dolmens (or beat them X number of times)
- Beat the Vet Story Boss

Add achievements for the Story Boss to make players want to go back and repeat the fight
- Speed run
- No Death
- Hard Mode
Something like we see in dungeons
Image Example of achievement challenges for the Fang Lair Dungeon

NOTE: The Story Boss encounters in Vet mode would have to be re-done to some extent to introduce new mechanics & challenges.

What kind of cosmetics? Like Dungeons & Trials
- Titles
- Colors
- Head items (hat, hair, facial hair, face markings, adornments, etc)
- Skins
- Costumes
- Collectibles
- Pets
- Personalities
- Mounts
- House

EDIT: The reason for this is so then if their goal is to farm gear then it doesn't matter which one they play in. If they want a faster gear grind then Normal would be more efficient and thus this doesn't split the players as much as if Vet Zones offered more gear rewards.

This would be perfect. Having to have friends with you to be able to efficiently hunt down items in overland content is old school mmo and I love it.

having to schedule the same four people to follow a story line and maybe get one day a week where youre all available sucks.
It never worked for Craglorn. THey had forced grouping and you all had to be at the same step in the story so you all could progress. Craglorn was a wasteland before they changed it. Veteran zones before One Tamriel were also deserted waste lands. Hardly anyone played them and most complainted bitterly about them and how there was hardly anyone in those zones. I dont see them doing another zone like that again.

Unlike Craglorn you would not need a group for every single story step. The journey would still be difficult and friends could join.
The final boss could have either a Vet Solo or Group mode

willjones1122

Just spitballing here. So bear with me.
What if zos tied difficulty to CPs spent? Here's what i mean:
When you create a new character you get a huge buff that disappears as you level. Well why not do something similar in reverse? Say starting at 160 cp(remember this is spent not earned, that's important) you slowly get a bit of a debuff that gets stronger the more CP you assign. This debuff is only active in overland so you dont accidentally queue for super hard mode dungeons or gimp yourself in pvp. Give everybody a free cp respec once per day then you can charge gold after that.
Base game now would be 160 (or maybe higher with play testing). Too easy? crank up your cp for the extra boosts and get a harder mode as well. Too difficult or no time to find a group? Scale down your cp to where you feel comfortable and head out. Every one gets to control their own level of difficulty, player base isn't split, and zos doesn't have to create a new game mode with better rewards. Obviously this needs some fine tuning and testing but i welcome feedback and thoughts

HowlKimchi

Katahdin wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

anyway let's say ZOS makes a Veteran Instance of Tamriel

This veteran instance takes some cues from Craglorn, taking aspects of Adventure Zones and applying it to the existing zones.
Meaning;
- More enemies in a mob
- Enemies have more health & deal more damage
- Enemies have more mechanics/tactics/abilities
- Veteran Delve Bosses
- Veteran World Bosses that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Dolmens that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Story Bosses are harder (more health & damage dealt, more mechanics + a HM)

Player of any level can enter this instance but are warned the content is harder and might need friends to help complete content.
So if a new/casual player feels that the current content is too easy and/or want to try out a zone with more challenge well they can switch over to Veteran to try it out.

a question is rewards
People have brought up that a possible problem is people using Vet mode for farming gear more efficiently.
In my opinion the current gear reward system is in a good spot and if the goal is challenge, then increased monetary reward should not the priority.
Also long time players who have already completed the zones & quests have no reason to return so, besides gear, what would make players interested in going back with their existing characters?

Just like Veteran Dungeons & Trials - Add Achievements & Cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
Make a list of achievements for each Boss & group content of each zone.
- Beat all Vet Delves
- Beat the Vet Public Dungeon
- Beat all Vet World Bosses
- Beat all Vet Dolmens (or beat them X number of times)
- Beat the Vet Story Boss

Add achievements for the Story Boss to make players want to go back and repeat the fight
- Speed run
- No Death
- Hard Mode
Something like we see in dungeons
Image Example of achievement challenges for the Fang Lair Dungeon

NOTE: The Story Boss encounters in Vet mode would have to be re-done to some extent to introduce new mechanics & challenges.

What kind of cosmetics? Like Dungeons & Trials
- Titles
- Colors
- Head items (hat, hair, facial hair, face markings, adornments, etc)
- Skins
- Costumes
- Collectibles
- Pets
- Personalities
- Mounts
- House

EDIT: The reason for this is so then if their goal is to farm gear then it doesn't matter which one they play in. If they want a faster gear grind then Normal would be more efficient and thus this doesn't split the players as much as if Vet Zones offered more gear rewards.

This would be perfect. Having to have friends with you to be able to efficiently hunt down items in overland content is old school mmo and I love it.

having to schedule the same four people to follow a story line and maybe get one day a week where youre all available sucks.
It never worked for Craglorn. THey had forced grouping and you all had to be at the same step in the story so you all could progress. Craglorn was a wasteland before they changed it. Veteran zones before One Tamriel were also deserted waste lands. Hardly anyone played them and most complainted bitterly about them and how there was hardly anyone in those zones. I dont see them doing another zone like that again.

I dont want story content as a group. Sorry should have clarified. I just want overland content to be harder.

Lysette

Iccotak wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

and no, I'm not playing for rewards - I earn my money doing writs and have a quite good life in ESO due to it - I don't care about rewards, i sell that stuff to a npc trader to get rid of it. I craft what I need and make it blue - that is good enough.

You say you don’t do things for rewards then proceeds to describe doing an activity for the reward.

Lysette wrote: »

I would even say a key to enjoyable game play is to not overpower oneself - in any game - in sykrim for example one could easily become a god at level 20 and then the rest of the game is pointless. The key to enjoy a game is to stay mediocre to keep it a challenge.

If you’re playing on novice sure you’d be a god by level 20. Don’t forget that your Skyrim play style was a very niche modded experience and does not cover the vast majority of players as others have pointed out.

Lysette wrote: »

I try to advance very slowly to not get to higher levels quickly - I distribute quests among my characters therefore to advance very slowly and stay mediocre. A result of it is that the content is always appropriate and feels good as it is.

Looking at your ESO play style I would say that it definitely doesn’t align with the majority as it’s purposefully limiting yourself from a good percentage of the existing content.

You purposefully limit yourself to make the existing content still somewhat challenging and not boring, when the game’s systems shouldn't force you to have to gimp yourself to that extent just to make the overland/story more engaging.
People generally don’t want their characters to be mediocre as they would find that experience...mediocre.

Lysette wrote: »

as for me - I'm not playing for being a hero - i'm an adventurer doing stuff I like to do and stay away from things I don't like. I'n more a vistor to Tamriel and enjoy the landscape and some of the story content - but i couldn't care less about being a heroine.

To refer to earlier..

then again i don't want to die once -- a hero who died is not a hero - so permadeath game play. i either get through it in total without to die or I start a new game

Lysette wrote: »

btw the gap between casuals and elite players can never be bridged anyway. casuals have like 10-15hrs max per week to play, an elite player does that nearly on a daily base. This does not allow for grinding or gear farming - casuals can't do that and it would be incredibly boring as well.

Doesn’t mean ZOS shouldn’t try to help players who do want to get into that content.
I’m not an elite, I usually play on end of weekdays and through the weekend.
I could still manage to get this content done.

Now if you can’t we know that’s two factors
1. Poor internet
2. How you built your character, which you did purposefully.

There’s more trials and vet dungeons I haven’t done sure I want the gear to make my characters better / look cooler but I’m motivated to beat them because I want that experience I want the satisfaction of beating a challenge. But I know it’s not unreachable or unreasonable, you just have to put in the time & effort.

Lysette wrote: »

you see from this discussion how it goes -first claim to just want more challenge and then later they come up with more reward for more effort - you guys do not fool me with it, it is just about better rewards and easier farming.

So far you’re argument has been that ZOS should cater to your specific play style and situation of poor internet at the expense of other players.
But then you have shown throughout this thread to blatantly ignore what people are telling you because it suits your narrative.

EDITED for Spelling & Grammar

well, a lot of what you said is correct, I give you that. But I think that ZOS knows pretty well how the majority of players is playing the game and that is why it is like it is.I really doubt that the majority is ignored, but rather that you are in the wrong boat when you think of yourself as being part of the majority - it is rather me who is part of the majority.

I'm not gimping myself - i am roleplaying normal guys with a tendency to go out and see what they can find, some adventuring and enjoying their lives with no intention to be a hero(ine). They sometimes run into things and become a hero(ine) unintentionally or because they can align with the cause - most of the time they couldn't care less and so they won't help out. It is my way to roleplay and play mediocre characters and that is fine this way. I like to play like this. I don't think that playing a mediocre character is a mediocre experience at all. It is harder to play someone with limited abilities than to max out everything and play a hero in a hero-intended game - the better roleplay is to be an anti-hero in such a game. Given that I just cannot be good in this game, I do not even see the red in time due to ping issues.

And as far as group content goes - I don't play with random people, just with those I know well. I tend as well to play slow paced and want to listen to dialogue and look around - running through a dungeon and do speed runs is not for me nor would I fit into the dd, tank and healer roles. It is just not for me and I'm missing nothing here - I don't like this content at all.

As far as TES.Skyrim goes - you can be a god at level 20 on any difficulty level - because the game mechanics allow with a combination of alchemy and enchanting to create weapons which can kill everything with a single blow. just when you limit yourself not to max out game mechanics and be somewhat mediocre the game is enjoyable. You guys do something similiar in ESO, maxing out yourself and use game mechanics to the most and then wonder why content is too easy - it's your fault by not being mediocre enough.

Mr_Wolfe

Jumping back in because I had an idea: What if ZOS could implement a difficulty setting that only affected your character's stats rather than mobs/bosses? So the higher you set your difficulty, the more of a penalty you take to your resources/damage/resistances?

That could serve as a voluntary debuff or 'handicap' for those who want more of a challenge, without affecting the difficulty of enemies for players who like things the way they are. You could even adjust rewards so that you get more xp/gold/improved drop rate (similar to the Treasure Hunter CP passive) the higher you set your difficulty--though to be honest, plenty of games have harder difficulty modes with no added reward besides maybe an achievement.

Seems like it would be a relatively easy fix.

Jack_Of_Shades

An optional "Hard Mode" would be a really neat addition to boss fights etc. I'd be behind that, I wouldn't use it. But I'd support it.

Iccotak

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Jumping back in because I had an idea: What if ZOS could implement a difficulty setting that only affected your character's stats rather than mobs/bosses? So the higher you set your difficulty, the more of a penalty you take to your resources/damage/resistances?

That could serve as a voluntary debuff or 'handicap' for those who want more of a challenge, without affecting the difficulty of enemies for players who like things the way they are. You could even adjust rewards so that you get more xp/gold/improved drop rate (similar to the Treasure Hunter CP passive) the higher you set your difficulty--though to be honest, plenty of games have harder difficulty modes with no added reward besides maybe an achievement.

Seems like it would be a relatively easy fix.

Take into account you’d be in the same player space as people without the debuffs who’d come in and faceroll whatever you were fighting.
This would discourage players from a “hard mode”.

Also as other people have stated they don’t just want enemies with more Heath that deal more damage. They want enemies & bosses that do more mechanically.

Mr_Wolfe

Iccotak wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Jumping back in because I had an idea: What if ZOS could implement a difficulty setting that only affected your character's stats rather than mobs/bosses? So the higher you set your difficulty, the more of a penalty you take to your resources/damage/resistances?

That could serve as a voluntary debuff or 'handicap' for those who want more of a challenge, without affecting the difficulty of enemies for players who like things the way they are. You could even adjust rewards so that you get more xp/gold/improved drop rate (similar to the Treasure Hunter CP passive) the higher you set your difficulty--though to be honest, plenty of games have harder difficulty modes with no added reward besides maybe an achievement.

Seems like it would be a relatively easy fix.

Take into account you’d be in the same player space as people without the debuffs who’d come in and faceroll whatever you were fighting.
This would discourage players from a “hard mode”.

That's what overworld content is like now. The only difference is the ones doing the facerolling are usually max-cp players farming for gear, and it's newer players and folks trying to experience the story for the first time who have to deal with the murder-trains interrupting them--instead of folks who opted-in for a more challenging experience.

Iccotak wrote: »

Also as other people have stated they don’t just want enemies with more Heath that deal more damage. They want enemies & bosses that do more mechanically.

To be honest that's part of what PvP is there for. I realize that's not a perfect solution, but it's just not reasonable to expect super-complex tactics and behavior from npc enemies in a game like this. It's too much work/expense just to satisfy a small segment of the player base.

Personally I think the PVE mechanics in this game are pretty impressive. You've got a whole host of skills, effects, and interactions (like off-balance, interrupts, executes, synergies, enemies that try to flank or reposition you, etc) that make the gameplay and opponents in most single player TES games (and most action RPGs in general) look brick-stupid and fairly shallow by comparison.

Lysette

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Jumping back in because I had an idea: What if ZOS could implement a difficulty setting that only affected your character's stats rather than mobs/bosses? So the higher you set your difficulty, the more of a penalty you take to your resources/damage/resistances?

That could serve as a voluntary debuff or 'handicap' for those who want more of a challenge, without affecting the difficulty of enemies for players who like things the way they are. You could even adjust rewards so that you get more xp/gold/improved drop rate (similar to the Treasure Hunter CP passive) the higher you set your difficulty--though to be honest, plenty of games have harder difficulty modes with no added reward besides maybe an achievement.

Seems like it would be a relatively easy fix.

it would be if people would be truthful with what they want - it is not the challenge alone, they want better and easier farming in overland with better rewards - if it would just be the challenge, i doubt they would even use this feature.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Jumping back in because I had an idea: What if ZOS could implement a difficulty setting that only affected your character's stats rather than mobs/bosses? So the higher you set your difficulty, the more of a penalty you take to your resources/damage/resistances?

That could serve as a voluntary debuff or 'handicap' for those who want more of a challenge, without affecting the difficulty of enemies for players who like things the way they are. You could even adjust rewards so that you get more xp/gold/improved drop rate (similar to the Treasure Hunter CP passive) the higher you set your difficulty--though to be honest, plenty of games have harder difficulty modes with no added reward besides maybe an achievement.

Seems like it would be a relatively easy fix.

it would be if people would be truthful with what they want - it is not the challenge alone, they want better and easier farming in overland with better rewards - if it would just be the challenge, i doubt they would even use this feature.

This is why the proposed idea doesn’t give any advantage in farming

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Jumping back in because I had an idea: What if ZOS could implement a difficulty setting that only affected your character's stats rather than mobs/bosses? So the higher you set your difficulty, the more of a penalty you take to your resources/damage/resistances?

That could serve as a voluntary debuff or 'handicap' for those who want more of a challenge, without affecting the difficulty of enemies for players who like things the way they are. You could even adjust rewards so that you get more xp/gold/improved drop rate (similar to the Treasure Hunter CP passive) the higher you set your difficulty--though to be honest, plenty of games have harder difficulty modes with no added reward besides maybe an achievement.

Seems like it would be a relatively easy fix.

Take into account you’d be in the same player space as people without the debuffs who’d come in and faceroll whatever you were fighting.
This would discourage players from a “hard mode”.

That's what overworld content is like now. The only difference is the ones doing the facerolling are usually max-cp players farming for gear, and it's newer players and folks trying to experience the story for the first time who have to deal with the murder-trains interrupting them--instead of folks who opted-in for a more challenging experience.

Iccotak wrote: »

Also as other people have stated they don’t just want enemies with more Heath that deal more damage. They want enemies & bosses that do more mechanically.

To be honest that's part of what PvP is there for. I realize that's not a perfect solution, but it's just not reasonable to expect super-complex tactics and behavior from npc enemies in a game like this. It's too much work/expense just to satisfy a small segment of the player base.

Personally I think the PVE mechanics in this game are pretty impressive. You've got a whole host of skills, effects, and interactions (like off-balance, interrupts, executes, synergies, enemies that try to flank or reposition you, etc) that make the gameplay and opponents in most single player TES games (and most action RPGs in general) look brick-stupid and fairly shallow by comparison.

New players having vets come in and destroy enemies is more like a goal, you want to get as powerful as they are.
Putting a handicap on yourself resulting in new players destroy things would not make sense as incentive or even a mechanic for a group.
You would be making yourself less useful to a group - doing less damage and taking more damage in comparison to your novice teammates.

That would just suck.

If it was a harder instance where you and a couple friends worked together because the circumstances you all chose were difficult then I think that would be more attractive.

Also considering the harder content ZOS has made I’m sure they could make the mobs more mechanically interesting

Wolf_Eye

Iccotak wrote: »

New players having vets come in and destroy enemies is more like a goal, you want to get as powerful as they are.
Putting a handicap on yourself resulting in new players destroy things would not make sense as incentive or even a mechanic for a group.
You would be making yourself less useful to a group - doing less damage and taking more damage in comparison to your novice teammates.

That would just suck.

If it was a harder instance where you and a couple friends worked together because the circumstances you all chose were difficult then I think that would be more attractive.

Also considering the harder content ZOS has made I’m sure they could make the mobs more mechanically interesting

Hey I just wanted to jump back in and say I like your idea, Iccotak.

A completely optional hardmode instance with more difficult AI enemies would satisfy both the people looking for thrills and the people who want things to stay the way they are; a win-win situation. Presumably you can go in and out of this hardmode instance at will, yes? I don't necessarily think it will split the playerbase either, because most of the people wanting hardmode are probably not doing a lot of questing right now as it is likely not enjoyable enough for them at the moment.

Besides, we already have several instances splitting the playerbase as we speak; every time I enter a group with my friends, it always asks me to warp to the instance they happen to be in because I always end up in an alternative reality of the same city they are in. The amount of players we see today will probably be the same if there was a hardmode instance.