There is too much separation between story and group content

Iccotak

NOTE: The goal of this post is Not to enforce a veteran overland and/or Group Mandatory for Story - but to find a middle ground between the easy and endgame for content like Story bosses in order to make them challenging because they are currently a lackluster anti-climatic experiences when we know that ZOS can make better designed Solo content.
Listen to each other to understand both sides of the conversation.

POST
The truth is that, in its current state, the solo and group experiences in Elder Scrolls Online might as well be two different games and this has resulted in a split of the PvE player base.

I understand that ZOS wants players who are interested in the latest expansion to be able to play that. If people see advertisements for Dragons then they’re going to want to be able to fight dragons.
They do not want players to feel gated to those experiences so they have made it a goal to make the story content as accessible as possible.

The problem is that the main story antagonist becomes boringly easy as consequence of this design choice which can make for a lackluster experience.

That’s why there have been a dozen threads from Vets asking that Overland and Story content have hard modes, just as group content does.

(EDIT: I am not necessarily saying that is the solution; the point is that overland and questing should to some extent better prepare players for harder content. Through more challenging Story bosses, as well as introducing more varied mechanics for harder enemies and larger mobs.
Because right now we are in a situation where players are asking for easier Dungeons & End game because they weren't ready for how difficult those activities would be.)

This is why there are already people who have stated they’re not invested in Greymoor because they know the main boss is going to be easy and therefore not worth playing. You can't take the next threat to Tamriel seriously if there is no meaningful challenge, in the slightest, to defeat them.
EDIT: videos of main antagonists in box

If the main antagonist that they show off turns out to not be tough to defeat (with no difficulty options) then it kills the hype and excitement of fighting them.
Elsweyr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcDY-5GjGaE&t=107s

Greymoor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRmHCJz86c4

But they are told that if they want a challenge then they should just play public dungeons, group dungeons, trials, etc.

Here’s the thing though; it’s Not that players just want a challenge.

Players want their efforts to feel necessary as well as their rewards & praise to feel earned.
When you make the final antagonist too accessible or easy it removes the tension of the challenge and thus removes any feeling of accomplishment when beating it.
This consequently leaves many players considering the final boss to be a joke that can’t be taken seriously. Which makes the experience not memorable, let alone worth a title.
Making the Main Antagonist easy to beat breaks immersion and hurts the overall story
The Ending experience of a Story matters.


I remember when I beat Molag Bal because of the journey it took from me to get there, the characters I met, as well as how difficult it was to beat him at the time (before One Tamriel) sure I am more experienced now but that does not mean that One Tamriel doesn't need balancing.

EDIT #2: it's also pure immersion. When you have a great quest chain that leads up to an epic fight with a legendary enemy, you don't want him to die before he even has a chance to show of his abilities. That's just bad game design and is destroying the immersion instead of improving it.
Doing the story as End-game players can simply be too easy to be fun.

So when we want a challenge but are told by the devs to go play the other content, or by the community to just unequip their gear and turn off CP - what we hear is that the Main Story of the Year is not for us but for New Players. All the story content is the same difficulty, everyone is a winner for just playing and so no one actually feels like they are winning.
ZOS wants us to enjoy the new story, but then they don’t account for variables that could make the story fun for many of the long term players.

Then there are the Dungeons & Trials which actually increase in difficulty as you continue to complete them, these actually make the players feel like they accomplish something because they are increasingly difficult.
Fungal Grotto is clearly not the same difficulty as Direfrost Keep nor is Direfrost as difficult as many of the DLC dungeons like Scalecaller or Moon Hunter Keep.

ZOS tries to give more to Vets by making the DLC dungeons more relevant to the main story but those dungeons are not needed to understand what is going on at all. However, the skill gap is very prevalent as new or inexperienced players who have been heroes of Tamriel are put into a dungeon they suddenly find themselves actually having difficulty but that is more to do with the fact that the game doesn't bridge the gap between low and top tier difficulties.

This could be potentially addressed if ZOS took their dungeons philosophy (i.e. introduce new mechanics over the course of the dungeon to prepare players for the final boss) and applied it the Main Story as well as some of the overland content.

Essentially ZOS has separated the PvE community between Solo & Group with no middle ground or guide. What about Maelstrom Arena - why can't there be a middle ground between Maelstrom difficulty and Overland difficulty?

Where is the middle ground? Why should all Solo content be as accessible and easy as possible? Why shouldn’t more skill or help from other players be needed to complete the Main Story?

EDIT #3: what the developers had to say
From Reddit about 1 year ago
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/comment/epwrb9x
Text of answer

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

FINAL EDIT
After review of the discussion I had this idea

let's say ZOS makes a Veteran Instance of Tamriel
This veteran instance takes some cues from Craglorn, taking aspects of Adventure Zones and applying it to the existing zones.
Meaning;
- More enemies in a mob
- Enemies have more health & deal more damage
- Enemies have more mechanics/tactics/abilities
- Veteran Delve Bosses
- Veteran World Bosses that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Dolmens that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Story Bosses are harder (more health & damage dealt, more mechanics + a HM)

Player of any level can enter this instance but are warned the content is harder and might need friends to help complete content.
So if a new/casual player feels that the current content is too easy and/or want to try out a zone with more challenge well they can switch over to Veteran to try it out.
Solo & Group are still valid play styles.

a question is rewards
People have brought up that a possible problem is people using Vet mode for farming gear more efficiently.
In my opinion the current gear reward system is in a good spot and if the goal is challenge, then increased monetary reward should not the priority.
Also long time players who have already completed the zones & quests have no reason to return so, besides gear, what would make players interested in going back with their existing characters? Add things that allows players to show off their achievements

Just like Veteran Dungeons & Trials - Add Achievements & Cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
The reason for this is so then if their goal is to farm gear then it doesn't matter which one they play in. If they want a faster gear grind then Normal would be more efficient and thus this doesn't split the players as much as if Vet Zones offered more gear rewards.

Make a list of achievements for each Boss & group content of each zone.
- Beat all Vet Delves
- Beat the Vet Public Dungeon
- Beat all Vet World Bosses
- Beat all Vet Dolmens (or beat them X number of times)
- Beat the Vet Story Boss

Add achievements for the Story Boss to make players want to go back and repeat the fight
- Speed run
- No Death
- Hard Mode
Something like we see in dungeons
Image Example of achievement challenges for the Fang Lair Dungeon

NOTE: The Story Boss encounters in Vet mode would have to be re-done to some extent to introduce new mechanics & challenges.

What kind of cosmetics? Like Dungeons & Trials
- Titles
- Colors
- Head items (hat, hair, facial hair, face markings, adornments, etc)
- Skins
- Costumes
- Collectibles
- Pets
- Personalities
- Mounts
- House

Aliyavana

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

Iccotak

Just because the final boss in Elsweyr was a dragon doesn’t mean it was a cool fight.

Mulaamnir, Laatvulan, and Kaalgrontiid were all clearly designed for new players in mind, the problem with that is that I lose any sense of accomplishment defeating them. Your victory feels handed to you and your praise feels like patronize; “You saved Tamriel” starts to sound like “Who did such a good job? You Did!”

Just because the Main Story isn’t endgame content doesn’t mean it has to be easy.

ZOS tried to have each main boss of Craglorn in a Trial which was met with little success but then again that was because you had to have a party to do anything there, including each quest step to reach those Trials.

In my opinion, this is an MMO and as consequence the threat of the year should take effort to defeat, for both solo or group play styles, otherwise it doesn’t feel earned and I lose any sense of investment and engagement.

Sylvermynx

Well.... I didn't find Mulaamnir a pushover, or "easy as possible". I can hardly wait to get into the story in S Elsweyr (that's sarcasm, btw).

Chilly-McFreeze

Aliyavana wrote: »

Ya, I wish there was a overland hardmode debuff. Make it a momento we could use to debuff ourselves

And then there comes Norbert Newbie, fresh into the game at level 20, pushing over everything that could be a challenge while you stand there, debuffed and watching how he facerolls your adventure.

Just give us a seperate veteran instance already. This isn't a single player game, your suggestion would only work if everyone goes along with it. We already have many shards if there are too many players in a zone at once. So adding some with + X% to health and damage done on enemies shouldn't be asked too much.

Iccotak

This isn't a single player game

I wish the Devs considered this more often when making the story content

mavfin

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. World Bosses and Dolmens are 'easy grouping' that take no real preparation, and can be skipped if the player doesn't want to bother, so they are exceptions, but main quest line forced to group to complete it? No, they won't like that, and will leave.

If you want difficulty, don't expect it there. That content is for the masses who wish to relax and have a non-stressful time.

Anything marked 'veteran' is there for those who want more difficulty.

Basically, you are not going to get to make overland harder. That's the quickest way for the playerbase to melt away and disappear, leaving the 'difficult' parts of the game w/o funding, and they'll be the first things cut if that happens.

NoodleESO

Tougher enemies, better rewards, an actual need for companionship in an online game?! Well, what are we waiting for? Zos make it happen pls!

Iccotak

@mavfin

Basically, you are not going to get to make overland harder

My focus is on The Main Story Boss that the Season hypes up as the big bad but ultimately is very easy

xXMeowMeowXx

If there are Vets asking that, than I truly wonder what they have not done....I watch noobs die all the time.

I have been playing since beta and overland is fine for what it is supposed to be. It was designed for a causal crowd, not tryhards....

If you’re not getting the harder achievements, skins, mount {still trying on this one }, playing PvP, grabbing those polys solo in IC earned to sell, then you have not really hit any true Vet content.

Sorry but when I look at the statistics of completion on certain achievements it is low.

The endgame community is small and I have never heard any of them ask for a hard mode. We have asked for harder arenas and trials, though.

Hey, you can make an alt account if you need but you still have 5+ years of experience.

The new trial is out and PvP has experienced a pretty interesting change. If you have not completed it and competed in PvP, you’re not doing Vet content, simple.

And I don’t mean Zerging garbage in PvP but 1 v X or small small....

Yamenstein

If ZOS has stated that we should just play the harder content. Then they just don't see the problem and/or don't care to fix it.

Glurin

Iccotak wrote: »

Here’s the thing though; it’s Not that players just want a challenge.
Players want their efforts to feel necessary as well as their rewards & praise to feel earned. When you make the final antagonist too accessible or easy it removes the tension of the challenge and thus any feeling of accomplishment when beating it. This consequently leaves many players considering the final boss to be a joke that can’t be taken seriously. Which makes the experience not worth remembering at all.

Bingo.

Every time this subject comes up, several people inevitably start presenting the false dilemma that we must choose between rip out your soul difficult and giving faceroll a bad name easy. But it's not really about that. It's about giving the obstacles present in the game some actual presence so you don't feel guilty about wiping out half an army just by sneezing in their general direction. You need some degree of challenge for the fight to be meaningful. Otherwise, it's just kind of, you know, an average Monday.

In fact, there's even a super hero that was built entirely around this very concept.

AcadianPaladin

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Iccotak

Glurin wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Here’s the thing though; it’s Not that players just want a challenge.
Players want their efforts to feel necessary as well as their rewards & praise to feel earned. When you make the final antagonist too accessible or easy it removes the tension of the challenge and thus any feeling of accomplishment when beating it. This consequently leaves many players considering the final boss to be a joke that can’t be taken seriously. Which makes the experience not worth remembering at all.

Every time this subject comes up, several people inevitably start presenting the false dilemma that we must choose between rip out your soul difficult and giving faceroll a bad name easy. But it's not really about that. It's about giving the obstacles present in the game some actual presence so you don't feel guilty about wiping out half an army just by sneezing in their general direction. You need some degree of challenge for the fight to be meaningful. Otherwise, it's just kind of, you know, an average Monday.

BINGO

EDIT: you can't take these Stories about the next threat to Tamriel seriously if there is no meaningful challenge in the slightest

Lysette

Iccotak wrote: »

This isn't a single player game

I wish the Devs considered this more often when making the story content

i bet that about 2/3 of the player base is definitely seeing it as such - a single player game with optional ability to group up with others on rare occasions or with specific friends - otherwise played as an RPG where the elder scrolls came from. If the game converts into mandatory group play the game will loose part of it's player base - I would certainly say, ok, this was it with elder scrolls, was nice for how long it lasted - it filled nearly 2 decades of my life, but now it is over for good.

ESO plays just like the single player on "normal" - there never was a challenge in TES, one could get through it without to die or very rarely ever die at all. And this experience is delivered with One Tamriel and that is why it is good as it is. Harder content is available, but not mandatory and that is as well good as it is - I don't want a challenge, I want to see and experience Tamriel just like it has been for decades on "normal" dificulty - a fantasy cake walk and fun.

XomRhoK

There were many similar threads, so i just repost my suggestion from another thread:

First of all players, the ones who choose Hard mode and who don't, must play together at same instance, to not divide player population, and experienced players still could help new ones.
Secondly, taking into account, previously voiced, concerns about AOE damage to players who don't chose Hard mode and simplicity of calculations and implementation, best solution, in my opinion, will be to place debuff on players who chose Hard mode, which decrease their damage done and increase damage recieved. But no one want to be weaker, so important part is right wording in description and rewards.
For example, two options in menu:
- Overland Veteran: Rumors about your adventures are widely known, all enemies will fight against you with additional fervor, they will deal double damage against you and resist against your attacks twice as good (+100% damage done and +50% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Menace of Tamriel or Hero of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.
- Overland Veteran Hard Mode: Every citizen of Tamriel know your name and deeds, all enemies will fight for their lives against you, they will deal quadruple damage against you and resist against your attacks four times better (+300% damage done and +75% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Terror of Tamriel or Champion of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.

Technicaly it's a debuff, but presented like achievment. The only doubtful moment is that Orc in pink towel, who didn't turn on Veteran mode, still can run and kill your boss in two hits, but at least he has no frame
Option purely for those who want additional challenge in overland and questing, no additional loot, gold or achievements, because this option easy to abuse.

And returning to quest and delve bosses, their health must be buffed anyway even for new players, becase it's too low, and players often even do not have time to see their mechanics and skills, there are some interesting ones. Recently i started do nothing in combat with quest/delve bosses just to see what they capable off.

Lysette

XomRhoK wrote: »

There were many similar threads, so i just repost my suggestion from another thread:

First of all players, the ones who choose Hard mode and who don't, must play together at same instance, to not divide player population, and experienced players still could help new ones.
Secondly, taking into account, previously voiced, concerns about AOE damage to players who don't chose Hard mode and simplicity of calculations and implementation, best solution, in my opinion, will be to place debuff on players who chose Hard mode, which decrease their damage done and increase damage recieved. But no one want to be weaker, so important part is right wording in description and rewards.
For example, two options in menu:
- Overland Veteran: Rumors about your adventures are widely known, all enemies will fight against you with additional fervor, they will deal double damage against you and resist against your attacks twice as good (+100% damage done and +50% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Menace of Tamriel or Hero of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.
- Overland Veteran Hard Mode: Every citizen of Tamriel know your name and deeds, all enemies will fight for their lives against you, they will deal quadruple damage against you and resist against your attacks four times better (+300% damage done and +75% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Terror of Tamriel or Champion of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.

Technicaly it's a debuff, but presented like achievment. The only doubtful moment is that Orc in pink towel, who didn't turn on Veteran mode, still can run and kill your boss in two hits, but at least he has no frame
Option purely for those who want additional challenge in overland and questing, no additional loot, gold or achievements, because this option easy to abuse.

And returning to quest and delve bosses, their health must be buffed anyway even for new players, becase it's too low, and players often even do not have time to see their mechanics and skills, there are some interesting ones. Recently i started do nothing in combat with quest/delve bosses just to see what they capable off.

sounds reasonable to me.

DaveMoeDee

As someone who switched their tank main to a DPS last week to clear Greymoor content and my outstanding zone content from last year, buy I'm loving enemies just melting. I love that bosses die in a few seconds. I've never really DPSed before and boy does it make life easy.

The problem isn't just power level. Are we going to make this vet version such that everything takes a tank build all day to clear while DPS still burn things down?

DaveMoeDee

XomRhoK wrote: »

There were many similar threads, so i just repost my suggestion from another thread:

First of all players, the ones who choose Hard mode and who don't, must play together at same instance, to not divide player population, and experienced players still could help new ones.
Secondly, taking into account, previously voiced, concerns about AOE damage to players who don't chose Hard mode and simplicity of calculations and implementation, best solution, in my opinion, will be to place debuff on players who chose Hard mode, which decrease their damage done and increase damage recieved. But no one want to be weaker, so important part is right wording in description and rewards.
For example, two options in menu:
- Overland Veteran: Rumors about your adventures are widely known, all enemies will fight against you with additional fervor, they will deal double damage against you and resist against your attacks twice as good (+100% damage done and +50% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Menace of Tamriel or Hero of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.
- Overland Veteran Hard Mode: Every citizen of Tamriel know your name and deeds, all enemies will fight for their lives against you, they will deal quadruple damage against you and resist against your attacks four times better (+300% damage done and +75% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Terror of Tamriel or Champion of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.

Technicaly it's a debuff, but presented like achievment. The only doubtful moment is that Orc in pink towel, who didn't turn on Veteran mode, still can run and kill your boss in two hits, but at least he has no frame
Option purely for those who want additional challenge in overland and questing, no additional loot, gold or achievements, because this option easy to abuse.

And returning to quest and delve bosses, their health must be buffed anyway even for new players, becase it's too low, and players often even do not have time to see their mechanics and skills, there are some interesting ones. Recently i started do nothing in combat with quest/delve bosses just to see what they capable off.

How exactly does resist work? Will my low damage tank end up with 3 hour fights?

Lysette

hm,, yes, this is another issue when played solo - my characters are neither dps nor tank nor healer, they are a bit of everything and good in nothing really - but i need to do it like that to be able to play on my own and not rely on others. I have a hard time to play with others, because due to my high ping all my actions are delayed and I see everything happening as well delayed and have therefore problems to target anything what doesn't move in a straight line towards me, because it won't be where I see it in the moment when I am finally able to see it - so group content is very hard for me to even try, because what I see is how it was 0.5-2 seconds before and not how it actually is, so targeting fails often enough - I rely on single player.

Sylvermynx

Lysette wrote: »

hm,, yes, this is another issue when played solo - my characters are neither dps nor tank nor healer, they are a bit of everything and good in nothing really - but i need to do it like that to be able to play on my own and not rely on others. I have a hard time to play with others, because due to my high ping all my actions are delayed and I see everything happening as well delayed and have therefore problems to target anything what doesn't move in a straight line towards me, because it won't be where I see it in the moment when I am finally able to see it - so group content is very hard for me to even try, because what I see is how it was 0.5-2 seconds before and not how it actually is, so targeting fails often enough - I rely on single player.

Oh yeah. Absolutely a major issue with mega satellite ping.

tinythinker

Glurin wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Here’s the thing though; it’s Not that players just want a challenge.
Players want their efforts to feel necessary as well as their rewards & praise to feel earned. When you make the final antagonist too accessible or easy it removes the tension of the challenge and thus any feeling of accomplishment when beating it. This consequently leaves many players considering the final boss to be a joke that can’t be taken seriously. Which makes the experience not worth remembering at all.

Bingo.

Every time this subject comes up, several people inevitably start presenting the false dilemma that we must choose between rip out your soul difficult and giving faceroll a bad name easy. But it's not really about that. It's about giving the obstacles present in the game some actual presence so you don't feel guilty about wiping out half an army just by sneezing in their general direction. You need some degree of challenge for the fight to be meaningful. Otherwise, it's just kind of, you know, an average Monday.

In fact, there's even a super hero that was built entirely around this very concept.

I will take the discussion to another MMO for comparison. In FFXIV, a sub-only game, you do have to run some dungeons and trials (which for that game is an 8-player fight against a boss) for the story, which does make it feel more like you are overcoming obstacles. But, that's not the part I am going to focus on. They also have solo instances along the way. These exist for some of the bigger job quests (jobs are basically classes in that games and each job gets unique questlines) and for the Main Scenario Questline, a.k.a. MSQ.

So let's say you are going through the MSQ and get to an encounter that is supposed to mean something. A solo instance appears and you (and possibly some friendly NPC allies) go and do an encounter. Finding things, clicking things, fighting, or just fighting. The fights often have different waves of enemies or phases. If you get knocked out, you can re-queue to start over.

To accommodate people who can't do normal difficulty encounters, they added the options "normal", "easy", and "very easy". Easy mode works by "increasing your maximum HP, damage dealt, and healing magic potency by 50%." Very Easy mode works the same way except the increase is 100%. Personally I find normal fine for me as a challenger, some find it boring. People who get knocked out often just need to see the fight a few times to figure out what is happening. The only I thing that was ever an issue for me is when you have to go through the entire long-ass fight again after beating all but the last stage.

Now, look at ESO. If you are going to fight a mini-boss or final boss for the story, it typically has you in a solo instance anyway for immersion. So, just make the mobs and boss(es) move faster, hit harder, and/or have some extra mechanics if your group setting (i.e. Dungeon Mode) is listed a Veteran. A real challenge for people with 4 or 5 star gear rating and at the CP cap. Sure players under that might still like and beat Veteran mode but it's a choice. Otherwise, for Normal Mode it's the same as it is now. Anyone, whatever their gear, CP level, etc., can choose to leave their setting to Normal Mode if they wish.

There is no change to overland or the open world experience. Beating story bosses now have optional challenge to make defeating them feel more impactful. Easy peasy.

@Iccotak

Noxavian

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

Noxavian

Lysette wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This isn't a single player game

I wish the Devs considered this more often when making the story content

i bet that about 2/3 of the player base is definitely seeing it as such - a single player game with optional ability to group up with others on rare occasions or with specific friends - otherwise played as an RPG where the elder scrolls came from. If the game converts into mandatory group play the game will loose part of it's player base - I would certainly say, ok, this was it with elder scrolls, was nice for how long it lasted - it filled nearly 2 decades of my life, but now it is over for good.

ESO plays just like the single player on "normal" - there never was a challenge in TES, one could get through it without to die or very rarely ever die at all. And this experience is delivered with One Tamriel and that is why it is good as it is. Harder content is available, but not mandatory and that is as well good as it is - I don't want a challenge, I want to see and experience Tamriel just like it has been for decades on "normal" dificulty - a fantasy cake walk and fun.

Excuse me? I don't know if we've been playing the same TES games, friend.

Then again I typically play on Adept/Expert where as you probably stick to novice as your 'normal' level, huh?

TES games are by no means a cake walk. Fights are challenging and you need to use your brain on Adept+ difficulty. To assume the games are easy just because you play on such a low difficulty has to be the most backwards thing I've seen in a while. (By no means am I suggesting playing on like, legendary makes the game uber hard, but I am saying Adept is probably the level one would consider 'normal' and even then that's challenging.)

Very strange flex. People don't play TES to just frolick about in the roses..... They play for adventure, fun, exploration, and challenge. The game isn't dark souls, but the games are difficult. Kinda mind boggling you apparently think TES is easy.

Lysette

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

see, elder scrolls comes from single player - for decades it was just that - and therefore a large part of the player base just wants elder scrolls as it has been with the option of occasionally play with a friend - ESO is not supposed to be the typical MMO and that is why it is how it is - mainly playable as what it always has been - a single player experience.

Lysette

Noxavian wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This isn't a single player game

I wish the Devs considered this more often when making the story content

i bet that about 2/3 of the player base is definitely seeing it as such - a single player game with optional ability to group up with others on rare occasions or with specific friends - otherwise played as an RPG where the elder scrolls came from. If the game converts into mandatory group play the game will loose part of it's player base - I would certainly say, ok, this was it with elder scrolls, was nice for how long it lasted - it filled nearly 2 decades of my life, but now it is over for good.

ESO plays just like the single player on "normal" - there never was a challenge in TES, one could get through it without to die or very rarely ever die at all. And this experience is delivered with One Tamriel and that is why it is good as it is. Harder content is available, but not mandatory and that is as well good as it is - I don't want a challenge, I want to see and experience Tamriel just like it has been for decades on "normal" dificulty - a fantasy cake walk and fun.

Excuse me? I don't know if we've been playing the same TES games, friend.

Then again I typically play on Adept/Expert where as you probably stick to novice as your 'normal' level, huh?

TES games are by no means a cake walk. Fights are challenging and you need to use your brain on Adept+ difficulty. To assume the games are easy just because you play on such a low difficulty has to be the most backwards thing I've seen in a while. (By no means am I suggesting playing on like, legendary makes the game uber hard, but I am saying Adept is probably the level one would consider 'normal' and even then that's challenging.)

Very strange flex. People don't play TES to just frolick about in the roses..... They play for adventure, fun, exploration, and challenge. The game isn't dark souls, but the games are difficult. Kinda mind boggling you apparently think TES is easy.

i referred to "normal" as in supposed to be played like this - if you choose something else your experience is different of course especially with mods - but "normal" is the mode the game is supposed to be played at - and that has never been a challenge. and yes in normal it is easy, i played them in permadeath and dying once is end of game - and i got through them without to die.

Iccotak

@tinythinker

Made a post proposing much the same thing, responses I got were mostly two catagories.
- "Just play Vet content"
- "What about solo dungeons?"

However I like your simplified explanation so I will have to do another write up update of the old idea with what you added.

What about rewards? Players are going to want rewards for doing it on harder difficulties

Noxavian

Lysette wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

see, elder scrolls comes from single player - for decades it was just that - and therefore a large part of the player base just wants elder scrolls as it has been with the option of occasionally play with a friend - ESO is not supposed to be the typical MMO and that is why it is how it is - mainly playable as what it always has been - a single player experience.

elder scrolls has never been a mindless face roll unless you play on Novice/Apprentice difficulty though.

And there's a large part of the player base that likes a bit of challenge. Not asking for every fight to be uber hard, but at the very least having to PLAN a strategy for the final boss of a chapter and/or main story bosses would add a sense of immersion to the game....

Not too sure how people are against this idea. People having to think on big bad evil /bosses/? How terrifying.

I remember in Skyrim having to spend times using trial and error on quest bosses to get a strat down to fight them. Those fights were epic and cool.

0 idea where you people are getting TES is meant to be a mindless face roll when it comes to story bosses.

tinythinker

Iccotak wrote: »

@tinythinker

Made a post proposing much the same thing, responses I got were mostly two catagories.
- "Just play Vet content"
- "What about solo dungeons?"

However I like your simplified explanation so I will have to do another write up update of the old idea with what you added.

What about rewards? Players are going to want rewards for doing it on harder difficulties

Well, you know, two things occur to me:

1. If you really want to feel the thrill of more challenging combat, then choose that option. It should be it's own reward. We aren't talking about a trial or dungeon or arena. We are talking about an upscaled boss fight for a solo instance in a major storyline.

2. If people still insist on the an additional reward, choose one more or of the following:

• The usual quest reward item is gold instead of purple
• An extra reward item of the same or a different set from that zone that is purple
• An extra reward item such as a motif page from that zone or a few gold crafting mats
• A small change in dialogue from an NPC about the fight after it's over

Those who insist on special titles or achievements for something as trivial as a suped up solo instance boss fight, then they were really not craving a challenge as much as the pleasure of stroking their epeen.

Lysette

Noxavian wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Other MMOs have found (and ESO knows as well), don't gate too much behind forced grouping. People will leave before grouping for overland content in many cases. ...

Raises hand. So much this, and thank Mara for it.

Imagine having to....group....in an online game to do some overland content.

Scary thoughts, I know. Maybe the people that want an easy face roll experience that don't want to play with others shouldn't be playing an online MMO game? Just a thought.

see, elder scrolls comes from single player - for decades it was just that - and therefore a large part of the player base just wants elder scrolls as it has been with the option of occasionally play with a friend - ESO is not supposed to be the typical MMO and that is why it is how it is - mainly playable as what it always has been - a single player experience.

elder scrolls has never been a mindless face roll unless you play on Novice/Apprentice difficulty though.

And there's a large part of the player base that likes a bit of challenge. Not asking for every fight to be uber hard, but at the very least having to PLAN a strategy for the final boss of a chapter and/or main story bosses would add a sense of immersion to the game....

Not too sure how people are against this idea. People having to think on big bad evil /bosses/? How terrifying.

I remember in Skyrim having to spend times using trial and error on quest bosses to get a strat down to fight them. Those fights were epic and cool.

0 idea where you people are getting TES is meant to be a mindless face roll when it comes to story bosses.

we might all have a very different experience with TES games - mine is more a survival style game because I use mods with harsh weather in Skyrim for example, which does not allow me to use other armor than fur, because it is simply too cold to survive otherwise. then again i don't want to die once -- a hero who died is not a hero - so permadeath game play. i either get through it in total without to die or I start a new game - and playing like this "normal" is enough challenge.

there is no trial and error with permadeath game play - you do it right first time around or you are dead - and start a new game. that is why i hate these trial and error approaches with lots of deaths - that is not the game i want to play.

Hexi

Most players can't even solo public dungeons, let alone world bosses. You see people asking for help for DOLMENS. Here's the problem. If they added VET overland similar to the difficulty that the old VET zones were, where missing a block meant you died, but you got nothing extra out of, no one would bother. If they DID add something extra for it, you would get massive whining from the people who can barely manage the current overland in addition segregating players.

I did VET rank 14 when the game launched, so no crafted sets cause no one had researched traits, no easy dungeons to farm cause they didn't scale, no CP, shockingly current overland content isn't challenging for me.