Rich Lambert's stance on perfected master and maelstrom weapons

carlos424 · May 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Hmmm. So if I have a "2018" item set, and in 2020 that item set gets nerfed, it won't automatically get updated to the "2020" version? I get to keep my 2018 version?

That’s awesome!! I get to keep my perfected 2-force pulse proccing asylum inferno!!!! Oh wait....

mav1234 · May 2020

This is a pathetic move on the part of ZOS. The car analogy is an awful one. In MMOs, I have never encountered a case where gear was upgraded but players had to farm the old content to get it. What a crazy scenario that is. Then on top of that, this is actually an item that Zenimax actually downgraded once...

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I am not saying they are the best at it but they are not the worst. Just my opinion though.

as I don't have experience with every mmorpg game company I guess calling them "the worst" is unfair. but they are the worst of any major game I've played, which is saying something. their comments don't get missed - they just rarely make any. there is a prominent dev tracker. This is legit the most we've heard from them on this issue - a private message on Discord. That is unacceptable.

The argument "this is a new item, why would you get it for free" is, imo, a bad one because the content is not new. The way I look at it is like this: Items are sometimes too strong, or too weak. When that is the case, they get adjusted. What the players have gets adjusted. When a set gets buffed, it isn't like they tuck away the new set in a Vet version and make you re-farm it. And this is why the car analogy does NOT fit here. If a company releases a model whose specs is too low for its price, but you buy it anyway, they don't just send you a new car to make up for it the way MMORPG companies buff sets.

That's what is happening here. Many of us HAVE this set, the same set that is being buffed. Why make us re-farm it?

The car analogy just doesn't make sense in this game.

edit: and to be clear, sets ARE tied to the content from which they come. there is no way around that. items don't spontaneously generate.

xXMeowMeowXx · May 2020

Didn’t know we are getting a car mount for clearing VMA again cool

MurderMostFoul · May 2020

They are new items, plain and simple. They may be similar to items you grinded for in the past, but that doesn't mean they are just buffs. Your items remain the same, and new items are being added. You want them, go get them. (Even though the are not that much better)

Does anyone remember when they added all new items the the PvP Rewards for the Worthy loot pool? No one complained,

"I've done so much pvp to get all the Rewards for the Worthy sets. I shouldn't have to do a bunch more to get these new sets! Just give them to me, I earned them!"

This is basically the same situation. New incentives (item rewards) for the same activity. It's just a way to make the same content feel more rewarding.

The widespread indignation over this is kinda pathetic.

Ratzkifal · May 2020

I think the worst thing about this is that someone had to leak a private discord conversation for us to learn about the opinion of ZOS' important people.

Why can't we just have a normal discussion with the Devs? It could go something like this:

GinaBruno posts a sticky to the forum with topics they want feedback on.
There are threads for each topic being made where feedback and arguments are collected
after time has passed the feedback gets condensed and properly written down by one person and the first reply of the thread gets edited so everyone can see the points that have already been made
then ZOS goes and looks at the forum thread's first replies and gives a quick statement on each of the points before going back to work
the forum then responds to the response by stating their counter arguments in the same fashion. This repeats until...
In the best case an agreement can be found that makes both sides happy which is then implemented. In the worst case it is exposed the two sides of the argument follow different mutually exclusive paradigms, in which case ZOS goes with what their own views tell them is right, since they are the ones making the game, but at least that way it is easier to understand for the community what the developers actually think and vice versa.

We have class reps. Why aren't they being made use of? They could be the moderators in this and be the ones gathering the feedback. A lot of them are also very qualified for this task already, seeing how a lot of them are well-spoken and have good game knowledge that allows them to understand the issues at hand better.

Vizikul · May 2020

Their car analogy really doesn't make any sense. They downgraded the current VMA weapons to NMA weapons, while introducing new VMA weapons. This is where their analogy is wrong.

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

They are new items, plain and simple. They may be similar to items you grinded for in the past, but that doesn't mean they are just buffs. Your items remain the same, and new items are being added. You want them, go get them. (Even though the are not that much better)

Does anyone remember when they added all new items the the PvP Rewards for the Worthy loot pool? No one complained,

"I've done so much pvp to get all the Rewards for the Worthy sets. I shouldn't have to do a bunch more to get these new sets! Just give them to me, I earned them!"

This is basically the same situation. New incentives (item rewards) for the same activity. It's just a way the make the same content feel more rewarding.

The widespread indignation over this is kinda pathetic.

Show me where the new content is. Thanks.

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

That's a hilariously unprofessional series of responses from the director of a major studio. I would have thought it was a hoax if it wasn't confirmed as real.

hamgatan · May 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

We have class reps. Why aren't they being made use of?

because they would have their heads chewed off for mansplaining things...

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

hamgatan wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

We have class reps. Why aren't they being made use of?

because they would have their heads chewed off for mansplaining things...

They've effectively killed the program. The class reps would tell them this is a bad idea, and ZOS would still do it.

Ratzkifal · May 2020

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

They are new items, plain and simple. They may be similar to items you grinded for in the past, but that doesn't mean they are just buffs. Your items remain the same, and new items are being added. You want them, go get them. (Even though the are not that much better)

Does anyone remember when they added all new items the the PvP Rewards for the Worthy loot pool? No one complained,

"I've done so much pvp to get all the Rewards for the Worthy sets. I shouldn't have to do a bunch more to get these new sets! Just give them to me, I earned them!"

This is basically the same situation. New incentives (item rewards) for the same activity. It's just a way the make the same content feel more rewarding.

The widespread indignation over this is kinda pathetic.

This is not basically the same situation.
If they added a new and different set in addition to the vMA weapons that drops there, nobody would complain. If the vMA weapons moved somewhere else (no, I am not talking about "moved to lower difficulty") and a completely new and different set took their place as the reward for vMA, nobody would complain.

The issue is that vMA and vDSA weapons have not been in line with vBRP and vAS+2 weapons. We completed the content on the hardest difficulty to obtain the weapons that are currently considered below the standard. Since we did the hardest content to obtain them, these items have the appropriate value of the hardest content and should be treated in a way that respects the time and effort put into them.
By making them obtainable on the lower difficulty in the exact same state as they are now on the harder difficulty but not granting the players who obtained them the harder diffculty reward as a replacement, is disrespectful of the effort put into it.

Since metaphors are huge in this thread imagine the olympics.

Usain Bolt is sitting at home and reading the news. He sees that the olympic committee has announced that all previous gold medals are now considered silver medals for all intends and purposes and that gold medals have actually never existed before now. And he checks in on the gold medal in his safe and sees that it is now covered in silver spray paint.

Leeched · May 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

We have class reps. Why aren't they being made use of? They could be the moderators in this and be the ones gathering the feedback. A lot of them are also very qualified for this task already, seeing how a lot of them are well-spoken and have good game knowledge that allows them to understand the issues at hand better.

The class reps were/are a farce, merely introduced by ZOS to act like they actually give a *** about their players opinion. This year was supposed to be "the year of performance improvements" and now take a look at the game - its in a WORSE state than ever before! They introduce changes and add stuff NO ONE asks for (ult cast times, block changes, *** mobile game grind minigames etc.) while blatantly ignoring every inch of feedback given. They do as they want and yet people still spend money and time on this game. I stopped playing early last year, came back end 2019 and immediately stopped playing again when they released the "block changes" aka step one on how to get rid of the ONE THING that made ESO combat different from all other games out there and actually enjoyable - animation cancelling.
Tbh everyone complaining in here should stop spending money on this company and/or playing, but lets be honest, most of you just complain but will still continue playing just to complain again about the next patch in a few months and guess what: ZOS WON'T LISTEN YET AGAIN!

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

The post telling Brian we don't like this idea has now been upvoted 226 times, on a forum that sees almost no traffic.

A poll with 300 votes show 84% of players are against the change.

But Rich would rather spend his time getting into petty arguments on Discord than actually listening to feedback.

Taylor_MB · May 2020

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

They are new items, plain and simple. They may be similar to items you grinded for in the past, but that doesn't mean they are just buffs. Your items remain the same, and new items are being added. You want them, go get them. (Even though the are not that much better)

Does anyone remember when they added all new items the the PvP Rewards for the Worthy loot pool? No one complained,

"I've done so much pvp to get all the Rewards for the Worthy sets. I shouldn't have to do a bunch more to get these new sets! Just give them to me, I earned them!"

This is basically the same situation. New incentives (item rewards) for the same activity. It's just a way the make the same content feel more rewarding.

The widespread indignation over this is kinda pathetic.

I know it's not the core issues here, but this is just so wrong.

PvP is played for the content, not the reward (for majority of players). Maelstrom is the played for the reward (for majority of players), not the content. Endlessly dynamic gaming with your friends vs the same old boring solo garbage in an MMO.

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

mav1234 wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

the key difference being in games like that... you get new gear from new content.

they don't make you go farm the old content you did already to get the new gear you need.

Adding new content would require investing resources into the game. [snip]

I welcome our CDPR overlords. They are the only ones that can save us from gaming hell.

[Edited to remove Conspiracy Theory and Bashing]

mavfin · May 2020

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The post telling Brian we don't like this idea has now been upvoted 226 times, on a forum that sees almost no traffic.

A poll with 300 votes show 84% of players are against the change.

But Rich would rather spend his time getting into petty arguments on Discord than actually listening to feedback.

But 300 votes is still a drop in the bucket. 300 votes means *nothing.*

226 upvotes...means nothing. On a forum, where most of the people posting are complaining about something...it means *nothing.*

Let's not start thinking you have some kind of statistical proof of anything. You don't.

If this was as popular a viewpoint as you insist, my guilds in-game would be full of complaints about it. Nope. I mentioned it in-guild, as someone was running vMA. I pointed out they will get better weapons in less than a week. His answer? "Practice runs." Not a complaint. Not a rant. "Practice runs." That's been the only mention in my guilds.

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

mavfin wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The post telling Brian we don't like this idea has now been upvoted 226 times, on a forum that sees almost no traffic.

A poll with 300 votes show 84% of players are against the change.

But Rich would rather spend his time getting into petty arguments on Discord than actually listening to feedback.

But 300 votes is still a drop in the bucket. 300 votes means *nothing.*

226 upvotes...means nothing. On a forum, where most of the people posting are complaining about something...it means *nothing.*

Let's not start thinking you have some kind of statistical proof of anything. You don't.

If this was as popular a viewpoint as you insist, my guilds in-game would be full of complaints about it. Nope. I mentioned it in-guild, as someone was running vMA. I pointed out they will get better weapons in less than a week. His answer? "Practice runs." Not a complaint. Not a rant. "Practice runs." That's been the only mention in my guilds.

Forums are used to gather player feedback.

It's an unpopular change among the veteran endgame player base. That's the portion of the player base this affects.

It doesn't matter if your crafting/fishing/casual PvE guild doesn't care because they aren't consumers of this content.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

mavfin wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The post telling Brian we don't like this idea has now been upvoted 226 times, on a forum that sees almost no traffic.

A poll with 300 votes show 84% of players are against the change.

But Rich would rather spend his time getting into petty arguments on Discord than actually listening to feedback.

But 300 votes is still a drop in the bucket. 300 votes means *nothing.*

226 upvotes...means nothing. On a forum, where most of the people posting are complaining about something...it means *nothing.*

Let's not start thinking you have some kind of statistical proof of anything. You don't.

If this was as popular a viewpoint as you insist, my guilds in-game would be full of complaints about it. Nope. I mentioned it in-guild, as someone was running vMA. I pointed out they will get better weapons in less than a week. His answer? "Practice runs." Not a complaint. Not a rant. "Practice runs." That's been the only mention in my guilds.

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

Ratzkifal · May 2020

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The post telling Brian we don't like this idea has now been upvoted 226 times, on a forum that sees almost no traffic.

A poll with 300 votes show 84% of players are against the change.

But Rich would rather spend his time getting into petty arguments on Discord than actually listening to feedback.

The problem with the poll is that it reduces the situation too much that the message gets lost. You could ask the forum "who wants 50$" and most people would answer "Yes!" That poll is not going to convince anyone.

What needs to be achieved is getting the point across that we do not see the perfected version as an inherently new set as it just got slapped on old content we already completed, with no twist to it at all, meant to replace the set we already had by claiming to be a better version of it with no right to be such.
They don't deserve their extra punch if all the extra effort we have to put in to get them is the same we've been doing for years.
There is just no justification for this when viewed from the player perspective. At least not in a game that doesn't invalidate all of our efforts on the regular (although in that case it wouldn't come as a surprise to anyone making it alright again).

mavfin · May 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

You smell a double standard. I smell wishful thinking. So we disagree.

In the end, the owners of the game will do what they will. You can play...or not.

HowlKimchi · May 2020

The problem with a poll in the forums is that people with complaints are more likely to go to the forums than the ones who would just like to say “okay” or “thanks zos.”

Im not weighing in on the topic btw, just wanted to point this out.

Giljabrar · May 2020

This is by far the most traffic I've seen on a post in 24 hours. 125+ replies. I think that says something.

We're not happy lol

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

DarcyMardin · May 2020

Wow. A lot of arrogance on display here. Not very professional if it indeed happened in an ESO Discord channel. Certainly doesn’t give me faith in the idea that the Powers-That-Be actually care about what the players think...not that I‘ve had much of that for the last several years (since Morrowind).

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

Giljabrar wrote: »

This is by far the most traffic I've seen on a post in 24 hours. 125+ replies. I think that says something.

We're not happy lol

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

This seems to be Rich's decision, not Brian's. I've not been a fan of many of Brian/Gilliam's changes, but this change seemed so detached from what the players want that it had to have come from higher up. And the childish defensiveness coming from Rich definitely makes me think this was his idea.

silvereyes · May 2020

OtarTheMad wrote: »

As I have said on here I am not a fan of using a personal conversation against anyone. This wasn't a business conversation, it was a personal message, a back and forth.

How was a communication between a creative director at a software service company and a customer of that software service had about the software service that director is a part of running not a business conversation? It could have been written on the back of a napkin in a bar at a meetup event and it would still be a business conversation.

Just because a message is direct, there is no intrinsic right to privacy. As a software consultant, I have many private channels directly with customers, including Slack, Teams, email and phone. I am under no illusions that if I treat my customers poorly in any of those channels, that crap couldn't end up on Twitter. I doubt very much that Rich operates under such illusions either.

Maybe if ZOS had any sort of public dialog about the subject at hand that this conversation contradicted, I would feel differently. But there hasn't been any sort of communication at all, so we dig for the scraps.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

You smell a double standard. I smell wishful thinking. So we disagree.

In the end, the owners of the game will do what they will. You can play...or not.

I'm not the one who tried to depict own guilds - without even specifying what sort of guilds - as statistically sound, while painting forums as unsound. What's next, anecdotal evidence? And you're darn right I can, that's why ZOS won't see my coin for Greymoor.

mav1234 · May 2020

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

They are new items, plain and simple. They may be similar to items you grinded for in the past, but that doesn't mean they are just buffs. Your items remain the same, and new items are being added. You want them, go get them. (Even though the are not that much better)

Does anyone remember when they added all new items the the PvP Rewards for the Worthy loot pool? No one complained,

"I've done so much pvp to get all the Rewards for the Worthy sets. I shouldn't have to do a bunch more to get these new sets! Just give them to me, I earned them!"

This is basically the same situation. New incentives (item rewards) for the same activity. It's just a way the make the same content feel more rewarding.

The widespread indignation over this is kinda pathetic.

No way. Random drops are different. PvP is dynamic, different every time. Now, if they added the PvP sets to an achievement related to PvP, say related to specific objectives in a series, and then some patches later made you regrind the entire achievement - that would be comparable. That is NOT the same at all.

On the other hand, when they directly upgrade a set from PvP, everyone with the existing set gets it.

They aren't "adding a new set." It is the same set. If they had created a whole new set to add to maelstrom as weapons for Veteran content, I wouldn't mind. But that isn't wht is happening - these are the same sets. Want proof? These same sets *used* to have a 1 pc. Now they don't. Next patch they will - but not our versions, not like they used to.

mavfin · May 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

You smell a double standard. I smell wishful thinking. So we disagree.

In the end, the owners of the game will do what they will. You can play...or not.

I'm not the one who tried to depict own guilds - without even specifying what sort of guilds - as statistically sound, while painting forums as unsound. What's next, anecdotal evidence? And you're darn right I can, that's why ZOS won't see my coin for Greymoor.

If you wish to move the goalposts, you go right ahead. I already made my point, if people don't agree with it, fine. I didn't expect that from people in this thread who have already made up their minds that they're entitled to compensation for something, and really just want a free buff.

Vildebill · May 2020

I was going to make a comment on how catastrophic the leadership at ZOS is for how they are handling this situation [snip] So I'm just gonna ask for my old 2015 Viper set (car) since we obviously get to keep our old cars according to the logic in their argument.

heh

[Edited to remove Discussion Disciplinary Actions]

Vaoh · May 2020

Embarrassing ZOS.

Also 5.8K views and 150+ comments in about 12 hours which is huge.