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Low Population Bonus Is Too High
dragonesti
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The Low Population Bonus is way too high. There should never be a situation where you are effectively penalized competitively for actually playing the game. Where there may be some need for a low population bonus, a player should never face a situation where they're out working for their Faction, control 40% or more of the map, and be losing to a guild by 50 points/tick just because another faction has fewer players. It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction whenever you start losing. This needs to be adjusted when the new campaign begins especially on the Ghost Host campaign.
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Q_Q✭✭✭Low pop ap bonus stacked with low score/ mid year mayhem 80k pv door keep captures is op
Edited by Q_Q on April 27, 2020 9:10PM0 -
nsmurfer✭✭✭✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Still part of nightcapping, the vast majority of people dont start playing before afternoon because they have work/school/etc.5 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The alternative is for ZOS to introduce siege that gets stronger on population imbalance, guards that turn to gods when PvDoor, and cut the buffs that an alliance gets for owning every scroll in Cyrodiil when there is a huge population imbalance.
Wait, all of that would turn off this game's ez-mode for a lot of players that get carried by those things, so I better stop talking ...5 -
Taylor_MB✭✭✭✭✭
✭The alternative is for ZOS to introduce siege that gets stronger on population imbalance, guards that turn to gods when PvDoor, and cut the buffs that an alliance gets for owning every scroll in Cyrodiil when there is a huge population imbalance.
Wait, all of that would turn off this game's ez-mode for a lot of players that get carried by those things, so I better stop talking ...
Actually insane that the game is designed to make the team already winning even stronger. 100% reward people for taking scrolls and keeps and such, but to give rewards that make the already winning team stronger is the craziest game design I have seen.PvP Defensive Set Comparison
Firestarter MagDK 1vX - build and gamplay!
LagPlar Ranged Lag Proof(ish) Magplar - build and gamplay!
ShadowGaurd MagBlade Group Utility Tank - build and gamplay!
Oncoming Storm No-CP 11.6k Ward MagSorc - build and gamplay!
My YouTube Chanel1 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.5 -
Q_Q✭✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Don’t be silly. No one “plays” prime time. We slideshow around and crash.3 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Still part of nightcapping, the vast majority of people dont start playing before afternoon because they have work/school/etc.
This is the typical response of people unfortunately when you bring up an issue such as this. The problem with your whole "night-capping" thing is that the bonus has been bestowed even during primetime, so your theory doesn't work here. Not only that but I am well aware, and others who have been around for a long time, that the low pop bonus has been exploited before by mass log offs. This is probably the case again because everyone has been touting that they always go do the faction that is the "underdog". So which is it? They need the low pop bonus or people are moving there to play for the underdog?0 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Still part of nightcapping, the vast majority of people dont start playing before afternoon because they have work/school/etc.
You have some data to back that up, correct? Or is this just 'my feeling is' kind of post?0 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭The alternative is for ZOS to introduce siege that gets stronger on population imbalance, guards that turn to gods when PvDoor, and cut the buffs that an alliance gets for owning every scroll in Cyrodiil when there is a huge population imbalance.
Wait, all of that would turn off this game's ez-mode for a lot of players that get carried by those things, so I better stop talking ...
Actually insane that the game is designed to make the team already winning even stronger. 100% reward people for taking scrolls and keeps and such, but to give rewards that make the already winning team stronger is the craziest game design I have seen.
Not at all. the PVP in Lord of the Rings Online actually had something very similar. The higher rank you get in pvp, the better gear opens up for you. You actually get more powerful for ranking than sitting at a lower rank. Of course, their ranks were much more difficult to get than the easy mode in ESO, but still the same principle.0 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.1 -
gabriebe✭✭✭✭✭The problem isn't people playing at night. The problem is the disparity where you have a poplocked AD against 1 bar DC at night.Former Empresses: Saliva Bortschion (MagBlade), Janet From Finance (PvP MagSorc), Carla Swagan (Tank DK), Estelle Born (StamBlade), Enya Arsenal (MagPlar), Anita Nurse (Magplar Healer), Bearback Brigitte (Magden), Rachel Justice (MagDK), Nicole From Payroll (Stamden), Bailiff Belinda (PvE MagSorc), Féline Dion (StamDK), Septic Tank Tina (Necro Tank)
The runts: The Trolly Spirit (Tank Sorc), Floods-Your-Basement (Warden Healer) Dinah Asthma (Magcro), Total Top Tony (Stamcro)
The traitors: Janis Javelin (Stamplar, EP), Barbecue Becky (Magblade Healer, AD)
PvE: Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer, Flawless Conqueror
GM: Animal Control2 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.
No, you don't get it. Everyone is free to decide when to play, but OP is also complaining about the low population bonus, so it looks like he wants to PvDoor and also get rewarded by doing that.
OP also said "It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction", so assuming that that is true then he just needs to pvp in Cyro during primetime and do something else during the morning, BGs maybe?
If people want to go to a PvP area and fight NPCs instead then so be it, but please, don't ask to be rewarded for doing that.1 -
dragonesti✭✭✭You simply don't understand what I am trying to say. I'm not saying that there should not be a low-pop bonus. I'm saying it is too high. I don't want to Zerg the map. In fact when my guild notices another faction is low pop, we generally attack the other faction. We look for good fights. All your assumptions about my style of play and desires couldn't be more incorrect.1
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Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.
No, you don't get it. Everyone is free to decide when to play, but OP is also complaining about the low population bonus, so it looks like he wants to PvDoor and also get rewarded by doing that.
OP also said "It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction", so assuming that that is true then he just needs to pvp in Cyro during primetime and do something else during the morning, BGs maybe?
If people want to go to a PvP area and fight NPCs instead then so be it, but please, don't ask to be rewarded for doing that.
Are you really saying that scoring points by taking keeps is bad while gaining points for NOT playing is good here? Can you flesh out that thought for me on how that is a good thing. To me, its like paying people to NOT work ....and then wondering why no one shows up to work and do the job......0 -
Ankael07✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭dragonesti wrote: »You simply don't understand what I am trying to say. I'm not saying that there should not be a low-pop bonus. I'm saying it is too high. I don't want to Zerg the map. In fact when my guild notices another faction is low pop, we generally attack the other faction. We look for good fights. All your assumptions about my style of play and desires couldn't be more incorrect.
Low pop bonus is there to encourage more players to join weaker factions. If youre really after pvp you'd want the bonus to be buffed instead
Also it doesnt come until youre well over 3-4 times the size of the enemy faction so you might wanna tell your guys to step up your game if youre still losingIf you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.2 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.
No, you don't get it. Everyone is free to decide when to play, but OP is also complaining about the low population bonus, so it looks like he wants to PvDoor and also get rewarded by doing that.
OP also said "It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction", so assuming that that is true then he just needs to pvp in Cyro during primetime and do something else during the morning, BGs maybe?
If people want to go to a PvP area and fight NPCs instead then so be it, but please, don't ask to be rewarded for doing that.
Are you really saying that scoring points by taking keeps is bad while gaining points for NOT playing is good here? Can you flesh out that thought for me on how that is a good thing. To me, its like paying people to NOT work ....and then wondering why no one shows up to work and do the job......
Scoring points by taking EMPTY keeps is bad, yes. That is NOT PvP.2 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.
No, you don't get it. Everyone is free to decide when to play, but OP is also complaining about the low population bonus, so it looks like he wants to PvDoor and also get rewarded by doing that.
OP also said "It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction", so assuming that that is true then he just needs to pvp in Cyro during primetime and do something else during the morning, BGs maybe?
If people want to go to a PvP area and fight NPCs instead then so be it, but please, don't ask to be rewarded for doing that.
Are you really saying that scoring points by taking keeps is bad while gaining points for NOT playing is good here? Can you flesh out that thought for me on how that is a good thing. To me, its like paying people to NOT work ....and then wondering why no one shows up to work and do the job......
Scoring points by taking EMPTY keeps is bad, yes. That is NOT PvP.
But, according to you NOT playing at all ....is PvP? You will have to explain this thinking a bit better to me as I fail to understand how one encourages play by rewarding NOT playing.
Do you really think that by taking first or second place in a game by NOT playing at all, will in any way encourage players to change over to the side that is winning by not playing (due to ZOS) and play MORE PvP? If the winning side is the side that doesn't play the end result is EVERYONE stops playing at all. That is the end point.
Edited by Soul_Demon on May 13, 2020 2:25PM0 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »Soul_Demon wrote: »dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.
No, you don't get it. Everyone is free to decide when to play, but OP is also complaining about the low population bonus, so it looks like he wants to PvDoor and also get rewarded by doing that.
OP also said "It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction", so assuming that that is true then he just needs to pvp in Cyro during primetime and do something else during the morning, BGs maybe?
If people want to go to a PvP area and fight NPCs instead then so be it, but please, don't ask to be rewarded for doing that.
Are you really saying that scoring points by taking keeps is bad while gaining points for NOT playing is good here? Can you flesh out that thought for me on how that is a good thing. To me, its like paying people to NOT work ....and then wondering why no one shows up to work and do the job......
Scoring points by taking EMPTY keeps is bad, yes. That is NOT PvP.
Do you really think that by taking first or second place in a game by NOT playing at all, will in any way encourage players to change over to the side that is winning by not playing (due to ZOS) and play MORE PvP? If the winning side is the side that doesn't play the end result is EVERYONE stops playing at all. That is the end point.
Are we playing the same game? Because in my game the alliance which night/morning caps or simply zergs the most is the one which ends up taking the first place. No alliance gets to 1st place by not playing at all, that's just dumb.1 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »Soul_Demon wrote: »dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.
No, you don't get it. Everyone is free to decide when to play, but OP is also complaining about the low population bonus, so it looks like he wants to PvDoor and also get rewarded by doing that.
OP also said "It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction", so assuming that that is true then he just needs to pvp in Cyro during primetime and do something else during the morning, BGs maybe?
If people want to go to a PvP area and fight NPCs instead then so be it, but please, don't ask to be rewarded for doing that.
Are you really saying that scoring points by taking keeps is bad while gaining points for NOT playing is good here? Can you flesh out that thought for me on how that is a good thing. To me, its like paying people to NOT work ....and then wondering why no one shows up to work and do the job......
Scoring points by taking EMPTY keeps is bad, yes. That is NOT PvP.
Do you really think that by taking first or second place in a game by NOT playing at all, will in any way encourage players to change over to the side that is winning by not playing (due to ZOS) and play MORE PvP? If the winning side is the side that doesn't play the end result is EVERYONE stops playing at all. That is the end point.
Are we playing the same game? Because in my game the alliance which night/morning caps or simply zergs the most is the one which ends up taking the first place. No alliance gets to 1st place by not playing at all, that's just dumb.
In the one I am playing DC has gone from last to second and within 50 pts of first several times now 100% only due to low pop bonus. Worse yet, when the low pop bonus pops up on the score, almost immediately a group of 40-50 DC start pushing map for emp each time. It almost seems as though they trigger it waiting and maximize the total "I dont play" points ZOS awards to non players in PvP.0 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »Soul_Demon wrote: »Soul_Demon wrote: »dragonesti wrote: »
Yup, you are a morningcapper. Map is still empty during the morning, but i love how you didn't mention that.
Again, it sounds like people are supposed to only play when you want them to. How does that work? Let's just disparage all the people who can play at "night", then let's disparage all the people who play in the "morning". Oh yeah, let's just disparage anyone that plays at a different time than "everyone else".... just who is everyone else, btw.
No, you don't get it. Everyone is free to decide when to play, but OP is also complaining about the low population bonus, so it looks like he wants to PvDoor and also get rewarded by doing that.
OP also said "It is now competitively advantageous to log out your faction", so assuming that that is true then he just needs to pvp in Cyro during primetime and do something else during the morning, BGs maybe?
If people want to go to a PvP area and fight NPCs instead then so be it, but please, don't ask to be rewarded for doing that.
Are you really saying that scoring points by taking keeps is bad while gaining points for NOT playing is good here? Can you flesh out that thought for me on how that is a good thing. To me, its like paying people to NOT work ....and then wondering why no one shows up to work and do the job......
Scoring points by taking EMPTY keeps is bad, yes. That is NOT PvP.
Do you really think that by taking first or second place in a game by NOT playing at all, will in any way encourage players to change over to the side that is winning by not playing (due to ZOS) and play MORE PvP? If the winning side is the side that doesn't play the end result is EVERYONE stops playing at all. That is the end point.
Are we playing the same game? Because in my game the alliance which night/morning caps or simply zergs the most is the one which ends up taking the first place. No alliance gets to 1st place by not playing at all, that's just dumb.
In the one I am playing DC has gone from last to second and within 50 pts of first several times now 100% only due to low pop bonus. Worse yet, when the low pop bonus pops up on the score, almost immediately a group of 40-50 DC start pushing map for emp each time. It almost seems as though they trigger it waiting and maximize the total "I dont play" points ZOS awards to non players in PvP.
Then you admit that they are actually playing and not getting to 1st/2nd place by not playing at all as you were saying before, right?
Low population bonus helps to reduce the gap on the scoreboard between alliances, giving a chance to the ones with less players to compete. If they removed or nerfed the bonus this gap would be bigger, making more people to just give up or move to the alliance which dominates the most, making things even worse.
About those 40-50 DC... The way you describe it it's probably one of those not so active campaigns (Blackreach if i had to guess) and they are probably doing it for the extra AP, not for the score.0 -
Matchimus✭✭✭✭✭You push hard & a faction with a handful of keeps is outscoring you. Pays to be a quitter.Edited by Matchimus on May 16, 2020 10:02AM0
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Matchimus✭✭✭✭✭Let me clarify...
Your faction is in last place and has been by a fair margin for most of the time.
One night it is bleak. You dont own a Keep and you keep getting smashed as you try to get one; they wont let you get up off the floor. You faction is at its lowest and your personal resolve is tested. Eventually you get a keep and begin rebuilding.
Two nights later you have the momentum and the tables have turned. Your faction is dominating. Got 6 scrolls and are dominating the map but a faction with a few Keeps is outscoring you because of a low population bonus. All that effort for nothing.
Curse the Tamriel Gods!0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, it is not. The problem is potential point gain during night / morning capping. When 1 faction basically does PvE (or PvDoor), fighting only NPCs with no actual players defending and "paints" the map, grabs all the scrolls and effectively accumulate s**t ton of points, making them win a PvP campaign.
It should be less impactful on the final score. Because, basically doing PvE stuff makes you win a PvP campaign.
I think the way to fix it would be to make potential points scale with population. If you capture enemy objective when they had 1 bar population, you will get less points per objective. The penalty would be greater if population differences (attackers vs defenders) are greater. Something like 2x, 3x 5x or even 10x less potential points if you for example had full population and enemy had 1 bar (late at night for example).
To have no penalty, it would require to re-take the objective (keep, resource, outpost, town etc.) when populations are more or less equal.
AP for taking objectives would remain unchanged.1 -
Joinovikova✭✭✭✭low pop bonus is too low.. all campaings are deciced on morning cap by 10 expert PVD playres...1
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JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭In a perfect world, I'd love for the low-pop bonus to not be just a point bonus at all, but instead be a dynamic affect on both the players and the NPC's. So for starters instead of being based simply off of 1-2-3 bars, the scaling would take effect based on the actual number of players, and for NPC's, the number of players + keeps held. Maybe not per individual actually, but perhaps for every 10 or so players your faction is short.
The NPC's would change based on the population of your faction vs. the other faction, and would change enough to actually be useful to the defending/outnumbered faction. I've never been accused of being good at math, but just imagine an equation something like (assuming the player is an AD and the highest pop faction is EP)(also all these numbers are made it and not intended to be accurate):
NPC damage = [(EP population - AD population) x 0.025%] + (current NPC damage)
NPC health = 1,250 x Y (where Y = the deficit in players for AD)
#of NPC's present = (can just be a hard number, something like 1 more per resource and 2 more per keep door per home keep owned by the enemy when at a population disadvantage)
Hell when you're 3 bars to 0 and down to your last home keep(s) the NPC's could even start manning siege on the walls, pouring oils, whatever. By that point they'd probably be OP as hell, but if you're population locked and facing a faction with, maybe, 15 players on total, you'd break through eventually anyway.
Unfortunately this type of dynamic world would never work. I don't know how you could balance it, especially as you'd be reaching for a place of "balanced unbalanced". Plus, people cry about OP guards and doors taking too long already, so I imagine it would probably be an full blown riot if the night-cappers and such had to actually work to take those keeps instead of just steamrolling the guards and 1-2 players left. Fun to dream though.Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
AD PvP
Trying to main a magcro. This is awful.0