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How the LA/HA changes fail to fulfill ZOS's stated goals and what could be done instead?

  • Draxys
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    Amazing. Fully agree.
    2013

    rip decibel
  • Narvuntien
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    Great post! constructive criticism horray.

    I am defending the changes in the general chat, because I despise the sky is falling types, but I agree with this measured response.

    I have 350 ping so I am in that middle class, even practice can't prevent me from missing light attacks or worse, double casting spells and burning all my resources.
  • RaptorRodeoGod
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    I would argue that the damage lost from light attacks should be funneled to ALL skills, rather than spammables. It would be better for build diversity, because not all builds run spammables.
    Add a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
    ---
    Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
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  • Athrael
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    @code65536 Thank you kindly for this constructive and well thought out feedback!

    Good to see the dev team acknowledge good feedback.

    How about you(the team) build what code65536 suggested over the next few days(if it can be done this quick) and have us test it on the PTS next week(again if it can be done this quick).

    Would be the best course of action to determine if code's proposal is a good one, because its one thing to read about it on the forums and another to be actually able to try it out.

    Plus it shows the community that the combat changes aren't set in stone and they can have an impact if their ideas are good enough.
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  • relentless_turnip
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    @code65536 brilliant post mate.
    The best feedback I've read to this change so far. I'm glad Brian has read it and sees that.

    It 100% softens the change, makes heavy and light more intuitive and does close the skill gap, more than what is currently suggested by the Devs.

    I hope they implement your idea and acknowledge you for it!
  • Shantu
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    @code65536 brilliant post mate.
    The best feedback I've read to this change so far. I'm glad Brian has read it and sees that.

    It 100% softens the change, makes heavy and light more intuitive and does close the skill gap, more than what is currently suggested by the Devs.

    I hope they implement your idea and acknowledge you for it!

    I'm not sure what these guys see anymore. Even if they don't implement these changes, you have to seriously wonder, once again, where their collective head is at. It's exhausting.
  • Hotdog_23
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    Excellent feedback. Probably the best I have ever read on this forum about proposed changes and what really should be done. Encouraged that ZOS read it and thought it too was good feedback.

    As a console player one thing I wish ZOS would do is make it easier to track off-balance because it is a pain to track. Plus, give us some kind of some gage or meter to help show what is a light, medium and heavy attack.

    Example, .__i__. So, the first dot is light attack the middle of the gage is medium and last dot is heavy when the skill goes off. Place it above the skills bar and make it a toggle for those that want it and those that don’t or learn the difference can turn it off. Something like this would help teach new and old players to better effectively weave.

    Personally, I wish all staff attack were a channel attack such as the resto and lightning staff. Believe this would help out the most in PVP with the medium and heavy attacks of the flame and ice staff.
  • Tanis-Stormbinder
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    Love the OP this make sense and it's the easiest fix to the current PTS
    Edited by Tanis-Stormbinder on March 25, 2020 9:32AM
  • Flaminir
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    Just want to add my voice to this as well... Brilliant post!

    Zos... Just implement this! Seriously! It's simple, elegant, hits your brief and will get broad player support.
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  • Rianai
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    code65536 wrote: »
    [*]Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
    I don't get what's the purpose of buffing sheer basic attack spam. All it would do is make easy content even easier and take away any incentive to learn and improve. And when then players who have happily one button spammed their way through the game actually try a bit more difficult content they will still get destroyed by mechanics. Not so much because they lack dmg, but because they never had any reason to aquire even the most basic knowledge and practise with their skills.

    The game needs to encourage players to get better, not do the opposite, because lack of knowledge and unwillingness to learn are the main reasons for the skillgap, not a physical inability to perform a perfect light attack rotation.
    Edited by Rianai on March 25, 2020 10:22AM
  • elinien
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    code65536 wrote: »
    But what does this do for the power gap between the "middle class" and the "upper class". Both groups will be hit hard by this, and it's not clear that they will be affected in a way that reduces the relative power gap.

    Cannot stress this enough. As a "middle class" player, the changes as they are on PTS do not bring me closer to the high dps players, but make my performance (even after fiddling with everything and trying a bunch of different things) even worse than live and far less enjoyable.

    This is a really good post and I'd love to see something similar to the suggestions on the PTS to try out.
    PCNA/EU since 2015
  • JTD
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    Great post and thread glad to see that ZOS noticed it.

    I wanna add to this that bashing without a sword and shield should do no damage at all as the intent is to interrupt with it (and cancel quick) and should cost more stamina to make bash weaving a bit less attractive but still viable as its a skill based thing.
  • code65536
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    JTD wrote: »
    Great post and thread glad to see that ZOS noticed it.

    I wanna add to this that bashing without a sword and shield should do no damage at all as the intent is to interrupt with it (and cancel quick) and should cost more stamina to make bash weaving a bit less attractive but still viable as its a skill based thing.

    I'm not sure what ZOS's intended vision for bashing is. Is it utility, intended only to interrupt? Or is it meant to be damage?

    One of the concerns that I've seen people raise is that with the amount of sustain that people are getting from light attacks on the PTS, that it becomes easier to sustain bash-weaving. And with the amount of damage lost from light attacks, clawing some of that back by adding bash seems rather attractive.

    The problem, though, is that bash-weaving is even higher-APM than light-attack-weaving, and it's presents an even higher skill gap. I can LA-ability weave (2 actions per second). I cannot LA-ability-bash weave (3 actions per second) with any semblance of consistency. So if the goal is to reduce the amount of power gap, it seems that further encouragement for people to bash-weave would be an unintended consequence.

    If bashing is meant mostly to be for utility--for interrupting--then reducing its damage (while adjusting the Deadly Bash passive for 1H&S to preserve the damage level for that weapon type) seems like it could help.
    Edited by code65536 on March 25, 2020 11:00AM
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  • Czekoludek
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    I hope that the devs will also acknowledge that some classes are more dependent on light attacks then others. Nerf to LA will hurt stamplars definitely less then magblades for example. The difference should be included if they gonna change how light attacks works/how much damage they do
  • Faulgor
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    The more I think about it and rearrange the deck chairs in my mind, the major stumbling block for an intuitive solution seems to be where to put active resource gain currently provided by heavy attacks. I'll take ZOS' change to increase resource gain via consecutive light attacks as a sign that they want to keep that aspect in the game, probably mainly for tanks and healers.

    Trouble is, as pointed out in the OP, it doesn't really make a lot of sense why light attacks would restore resources but other basic attacks don't, and myself and others have added that it doesn't feel intuitive on any kind of basic attack to begin with.
    So I find it really tough to combine ZOS' stated goal of an intuitive setup ("especially for less experienced players") with the apparent desire or even need to keep active resource gain on a universal combat ability ...

    Unless a completely new one was added. Something that pauses combat/blocking/sprinting for a moment like heavy attacks did, just without actually attacking. Conceptually, we might think of it as catching your breath to regain stamina/magicka, which seems much more intuitive to me.
    There are undoubtedly issues I'm not seeing right now, but would people be theoretically open to that?

    E.g. I can foresee issues with button placement on a gamepad, playing with one myself, but if they found something for dodge roll and synergy use, I'm sure something can be found for ... "catch-breath".
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  • Ek1
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    While Code's idea of resource returning from all kind of attacks is best that I have read for a long time, I would encourage for more bolder change in how weapons are represented in the game. Now they are maybe 10% of the damage but represent 50% of the actions made by high level DPS. keyboard1, mouse1, keyboard2, mouse1, keyboard3, mouse1...

    Those sharp things hold in hand to actually represent something
    There is only one effect in the game that increases the damage of your weapon, empower. Then yet that weapon in hand can create effects that increases its damage for a short while but its and effect that no one really uses because the weapon was coated with poison so the magic cant penetrate it. Now, if you could coat a whole person to that super poison you would be immune to magic...
    Same time you magically summon spears, daggers, hammers, bows, whips and whatnots that have potent equal to the characters totally something else than the actual item in his hand. If there are hugely better weapons in that magical pocket, why bother carrying weapons at all and how should this bar swap thingy represent this?

    This might seem going of the rails in light of the opening post but like said the thing your character is holding in his hand is the only thing affect things in every other game there is, ESO is the only game where the weapon your character is holding has least causality. Even less than EVE and everyone sees that as graphical representation of a excel sheet.

    I would remove resource gain from weapon swinging totally or even add a cost for heavy attacks but then again, I would also add some more interactions to weapons than 'heavy attack a off-balanced enemy and he falls'. Uuu, the mechanics are so stuck-at-tutorial level.

    I mean, look at the game series. Just one hop backwards and you could take a wooden sword and if you were grandmaster alchemist, smith, enchanter & weapon master with expensive top the notch gear you would get 1500% more out of that item.

    For those ZOS marketing and developer people I would like to ask: When a new player joins the game, how do you justify/explain the weapons the character is using? Are they way to focus power? Some kind of cosmetic things? If so, why there is only ten things the character remembers when entering combat? Are the characters cognitive abilities stuck in a level of a rat? Why the helmet and shoulders a character is wearing has more impact in his combat than the weapon he is holding?

    A new player has literally nothing else than a sword in his hand and his abilities seem to be mysterious with no representation/link of his weapon or skill set. I have watched several new players and cp 6000 players to play in such way that they think their DPS comes from basic attacking.

    This would be opportunity to take step from prop items to some real valued and sought weapons.
    Ek1@EU@PC.
  • Dracane
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    @code65536 brilliant post mate.
    The best feedback I've read to this change so far. I'm glad Brian has read it and sees that.

    It 100% softens the change, makes heavy and light more intuitive and does close the skill gap, more than what is currently suggested by the Devs.

    I hope they implement your idea and acknowledge you for it!

    But it does not. Nerfing light attack damage does not close the gap, just makes it wider.
    Using light attacks for damage is intuitive and what everyone does when they lack the experience.

    Especially since it works the same in most other games (base attacks) and any pug I have ever seen in dungeons spammed light attacks. And that is fine. It is easy, it is fast and it rewards new players with a reasonable amount of dps. Light attacks should not be touched at all. Maybe even buffed honestly. They can buff heavy attacks, that is appreciated. But they need to maintain their ressource gain. When they buffed the damage of light attacks a while ago, they helped new players much more because that is literally what new players do for damage. They do not heavy attack when they want damage. Even with these changes, heavy attacks remine unloved by nearly everybody.


    So obviously, reducing their damage will hurt new players more than veteran players. It widens the gap. Light attacks should remain as they are or be improved even to help newer players.
    Edited by Dracane on March 25, 2020 12:17PM
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  • IrishOphidia
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    Thank you Code. You put into words what a lot of us have been discussing over that last few days and I 100% agree. To those who disagree because of “lore,” just no. This is first and foremost an MMO and lore should have minimal impact on how the combat system fundamentally operates.
  • kylewwefan
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    Sustain

    Lot of great points in this topic!

    There is a big one here by few, “Why should any attack give back resources?” I kind of agree with that. It’s really not very intuitive at all imo. It just is what it is kind of.

    There’s another one, “Resources should be given back through soul gems” well, they kind of already are if you use an absorb enchant, but that can be changed to whatever enchant you want. Let’s leave the heavy thinking to the big boys on this.

    Then one other thought “Raise the base regen” now, this would be logical right? All these other methods to regain resource are basically to compensate for there not being enough regen built in, in the first place.

    It’s structured to promote using both light attacking and skills I think. I could be wrong?

    Primary Attacks

    Codes breakdown of primary attacks and skills being used to augment total damage...well I can’t re iterate that in any kind of meaningful way, but I gathered perhaps primary attacks should be our main source of damage and skills should support that, not the other way around.

    Where as now on live, primary attacks are the most damage from light attacks, but skills generally make up the other %75+ of total damage.

    Now on the pts it took your primary attack and dropped that down to less than %10 of total damage. That’s probably not good for anyone.

    Ive no idea what a heavy attack build looks like number wise.


    What About Synergies?

    This has been a constant theme in game for quite some time. We even have jewelry traits to enhance what synergies can do for us. The developers have spent time trying to make them actually work somewhat reliable. Heck we even have a new class that can use it’s own synergy.

    The problem is in small group stuff where there’s often no synergies to be found. They are there and can do great things, but cant really be factored in to account for things in any kind of reliable way.

    Why is this still an issue 6 years later?

    That’s a great question, glad you asked! I’ve no idea. This should had been figured out in beta, but here we are on the cusp of the next chapter coming, still tinkering away with core game schematic.

    They need to make this so there’s not enough sustain to just spam skills, and not enough damage to just primary attack. The developers want us to use both to maximize our output and have to think about sustain

    So we have this new wheel invented to get resources back through attacking to be able to sustain through a fight.

    You guys are on your own, I’m not smart enough to figure this thing out. Lol

  • Elsonso
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Unless a completely new one was added. Something that pauses combat/blocking/sprinting for a moment like heavy attacks did, just without actually attacking. Conceptually, we might think of it as catching your breath to regain stamina/magicka, which seems much more intuitive to me.
    There are undoubtedly issues I'm not seeing right now, but would people be theoretically open to that?

    I thought about that, but one of the problems I had with the sustain nerfs a while back is that all my characters started acting like they were 90 years old. Until I learned different resource management skills, I was "huffing and puffing" while I caught my breath. I was used to this for lower end characters, but not for the higher end ones.

    Anything that stops combat so that the character can pause to "catch their breath" is going to slow down the combat and make the characters feel weaker.

    A dynamic regeneration method might help. When the character runs out of stamina/magicka, they are basically taking a break from combat anyway. Light and heavy attacks are all that can be done. Have the regen rate react inversely to the level of the resource. When the character is out, regen is boosted to help them "catch their breath". When the character is full resource, regen is "normal".
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  • Irfind
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    I think there are two major reasons players don’t like heavy attacks. First is cause they are slow and can snare you. Second is that the reward for that long animation and snare is a piddly amount of damage.

    It sucks to channel a 2 second heavy attack that cannot be canceled only to deal less damage than a 1 second Snipe that can be canceled.

    As long as they are so much slower for such lower damage virtually no one will want to use them outside of those with hand issues. Players tolerate them now cause you rarely have to use them for resources.

    Uhm they get rid off the snere no ? They even speed up HA on bow and staves ? (from patch notes, below)

    Bow Heavy Attacks now deal approximately 12% more damage, and reduced their cast times by 550ms. Bow Heavy Attacks no longer reduce your movement speed while charging.

    Inferno and Frost Staves Heavy Attacks now deal approximately 12% more damage, and reduced their cast times by 300ms. They also no longer reduce movement speed while casting.

    (edit for tipo)
    Edited by Irfind on March 25, 2020 12:39PM
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  • ricklaverd
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    I AGREE with all he proposed
  • relentless_turnip
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    Dracane wrote: »
    @code65536 brilliant post mate.
    The best feedback I've read to this change so far. I'm glad Brian has read it and sees that.

    It 100% softens the change, makes heavy and light more intuitive and does close the skill gap, more than what is currently suggested by the Devs.

    I hope they implement your idea and acknowledge you for it!

    But it does not. Nerfing light attack damage does not close the gap, just makes it wider.
    Using light attacks for damage is intuitive and what everyone does when they lack the experience.

    Especially since it works the same in most other games (base attacks) and any pug I have ever seen in dungeons spammed light attacks. And that is fine. It is easy, it is fast and it rewards new players with a reasonable amount of dps. Light attacks should not be touched at all. Maybe even buffed honestly. They can buff heavy attacks, that is appreciated. But they need to maintain their ressource gain. When they buffed the damage of light attacks a while ago, they helped new players much more because that is literally what new players do for damage. They do not heavy attack when they want damage. Even with these changes, heavy attacks remine unloved by nearly everybody.


    So obviously, reducing their damage will hurt new players more than veteran players. It widens the gap. Light attacks should remain as they are or be improved even to help newer players.

    You misinterpreted what I said, I am praising and whole heartedly agreeing with the OP's suggestion.
    I am happy the way things are, but if they want to change how this functions.

    If it goes live the way it is currently suggested, I won't effect me at all.
    I mainly PVP and this only increases my advantage against a new player IMO.

    Light attacks should take small reduction i.e 30-40% not the 78% suggested.
    They can increase heavy attack's to where they have I would be worried if they changed it anymore.
    Due to highly unskilled ganking being a real possibility. snipe is bad enough :lol:
    if they want to add resource return on all forms of basic attack that's fine too.
    It should be a ramping amount dependent on how long the basic attack is charged.

    If you haven't read the OP I would suggest it, he put it a lot better than I do.
  • Tanis-Stormbinder
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    I can't reiterate enough now simple it will be to make the OP changes to PTS then to change skills or passives, all which may affect game balance. Excellent post!
  • Dracane
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    Dracane wrote: »
    @code65536 brilliant post mate.
    The best feedback I've read to this change so far. I'm glad Brian has read it and sees that.

    It 100% softens the change, makes heavy and light more intuitive and does close the skill gap, more than what is currently suggested by the Devs.

    I hope they implement your idea and acknowledge you for it!

    But it does not. Nerfing light attack damage does not close the gap, just makes it wider.
    Using light attacks for damage is intuitive and what everyone does when they lack the experience.

    Especially since it works the same in most other games (base attacks) and any pug I have ever seen in dungeons spammed light attacks. And that is fine. It is easy, it is fast and it rewards new players with a reasonable amount of dps. Light attacks should not be touched at all. Maybe even buffed honestly. They can buff heavy attacks, that is appreciated. But they need to maintain their ressource gain. When they buffed the damage of light attacks a while ago, they helped new players much more because that is literally what new players do for damage. They do not heavy attack when they want damage. Even with these changes, heavy attacks remine unloved by nearly everybody.


    So obviously, reducing their damage will hurt new players more than veteran players. It widens the gap. Light attacks should remain as they are or be improved even to help newer players.



    If you haven't read the OP I would suggest it, he put it a lot better than I do.

    Of course I have read it. :) But I do not agree with the longing to reduce light attack damage by such a hefty amount. 78% is insane and 30% is still massive. It would do new players any good, at all.
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  • Olauron
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    code65536 wrote: »
    PART 3: WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS A COMBAT DESIGNER
    1. Reduce light attack damage. Not by 78%. But by something more modest. 30%?
    2. Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
    Random thought about the quoted part: if you implement increasing damage of consecutive light attacks the same way as Zaan increases damage of procs (up to a certain threshold), you don't need to make reduction more modest. Players who are in your 1st category will raise their damage to good numbers. At the same time damage from LA-weaving will not be significant compared to skills.
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  • Jarrods32
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    code65536 wrote: »
    Note: This a repost of post #222 of the official discussion thread.

    I want to start off by saying that I am in complete 100% agreement with the "mission statement" of these PTS changes. Specifically, the following paragraph:
    There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.
    I agree with all of this, and I agree that something needs to be done, and I applaud ZOS for taking action. But I strongly dislike the solution that is being tried out here.

    I consider that the two overall goals here are:
    1. Reducing the effect of the skill gap. To be clear, it is good to have a skill gap. The amount by which that skill gap translates into power is the thing that needs some adjustment.
    2. Making light and heavy attacks more intuitive.


    PART 1: ADDRESSING THE POWER GAP

    First, as a broad generalization, I like to think about players being put into three categories.
    1. Players who mostly use their basic weapon attacks. The so-called "light-attack spammers" or "heavy-attack spammers".
      • Keep in mind that in most games, your basic weapon attacks--e.g., pointing and shooting your gun--is the primary way you do damage and that abilities are things that you cast every now and then to augment that damage or for utility. In ESO, abilities make up most of your damage and basic weapon attacks augment that damage, which can be counter-intuitive for someone who's used to, say, shooters, but is new to ESO, so it's perfectly understandable to see a new player just doing "light-attack spam" because that's kinda natural, if you think about it.
    2. Players who use abilities and try to weave them, but aren't very good at it. This might be due to a lack of practice. Or, in many cases, people simply aren't able to; e.g., for older players, it can even be a little physically painful. When we look at people's DPS parses, the first thing we look at is their LA/s rate. And if it's something like 0.5, we'd say, "You need to light-attack more"; i.e., get better at weaving. I myself am only around 0.7 LA/s. I can't hit the 0.8 or 0.9+ LA/s that elite players can get, and I probably will never get there; I have my limits.
    3. Elite players who have very high APM, whose rotations are fast and fluid and who don't miss their LA-weaves.
    So how do the proposed changes affect each of these skill tiers?

    Based on my testing on the PTS, someone who just spams heavy attacks will get a modest boost to their damage. Heavy attack damage has been increased by a modest amount, and the cast times have been reduced a little. The end result, based on some quick casual testing on the PTS is a small increase in the ballpark of around 10-20%. For someone spamming light attacks, well, it's not pretty. The fight duration tripled, so the DPS was cut by around 2/3 (less than the 78% nominal nerf because of damage from things like weapon enchantments).

    I don't think that these changes help the proverbial "floor". On Live, both heavy-attack spam and light-attack spam does similar amounts of overall DPS. On the PTS, heavy-attack spam was mildly buffed, while light-attack spam was thrown into the gutter. I don't see how this helps the "floor". At all. If anything, I would argue that these changes hurt them more than it helps them, as it strips away combat options and forces these kinds of players into using only heavy attacks.

    But what about the "middle class"? What about the people who try to weave abilities, but aren't able to do so that well? The amount of resource return from light attacks is immense. Without the CP buff, it's equivalent to about 400 regen for someone who weaves perfectly. Obviously, it's more once you figure in Tenacity. So while missing light attacks won't result in as much of a direct loss of damage, it still represents a significant indirect loss of damage because that sustain can be translated into damage. Choosing bi-stat food over regen food. Picking a "damage" race like Orc instead of a "sustain" race like Redguard. Using a "damage" set like New Moon Acolyte instead of a "sustain" set like Vicious Ophidian. But these kinds of shifts away from other sources of sustain will be available only to people who can weave well.

    For the "upper class", yes, it's an outright nerf to power. That can be somewhat compensated for by shifting their builds further away from sustain.

    But what does this do for the power gap between the "middle class" and the "upper class". Both groups will be hit hard by this, and it's not clear that they will be affected in a way that reduces the relative power gap.

    And so I would like to take a moment now to talk about the Morrowind combat changes. Back when those changes were made, @ZOS_RichLambert said on ESO Live that they had two goals with the Morrowind combat changes. First, they wanted people to think about sustain again. And second, they wanted to reduce the power gap. Well, these changes seem to fly in the face of the notion that sustain should be relevant. But more importantly, the Morrowind combat changes increased the power gap between players. Yes, the sustain nerfs hit the power of the "upper class" hard. But it also hit the "middle class" even more. If you think about it, when resources are tight, then players who are more efficient at resource usage will have an advantage. Instead of using a dynamic rotation, are you using an easy static rotation that results in a couple of DoTs being recast a little early? That's wasted resources. Did you accidentally step into red and thus need to cast a self-heal to compensate for your mistake? That's wasted resources. Did you miss a light attack and thus miss out on its resource-free damage? That's less damage per resource spent.

    Can you say, without any doubt, that these light/heavy attack changes will hurt the "upper class" more than it hurts the "middle class"? If not, then you're not actually closing the power gap, and this will be a repeat of the Morrowind fiasco.

    But hey there's more to this game than just DPS! What about something like PvE tanking? A lot of tanking is about resource management. Wouldn't it be great if, as a tank, you could get stamina as you light-weave everything? It would trivialize resource management! Hooray! But oh wait, that means you have to drop block to weave every ability instead of block-casting, and if you're a new tank or even an experienced tank who's tanking new unfamiliar content, that's pretty darn risky. So what this means is that experienced tanks can get easy resource management, but beginner tanks who are told, "when it doubt, hold block" can't reap the benefits of this. And of course, if a tank needs an emergency injection of stamina, the old option of getting a burst of about 2.8K stamina from a single 0.8s heavy attack channel is gone. All of this simply punishes less experienced players and dramatically increase the effects of the skill gap.


    PART 2: LIGHT/HEAVY ATTACKS SHOULD BE INTUITIVE

    You're right: Heavy attacks restoring resources, while light attacks do not, is not intuitive. But... How on earth is the opposite intuitive?! A new player is going to be just as confused about light-attacks restoring resources as they are with the current arrangement on Live.

    So what would be intuitive?

    Simple: Stop treating light and heavy attacks differently!

    Both light and heavy attacks should restore resources. A light attack should restore a very small, token amount (50?). And heavy attacks should restore the same amount as they do now. And medium attacks should restore somewhere between the two, scaled with the duration of the channel.

    That's how you make intuitive mechanics. A heavy attack should just be a heavier, stronger light attack. Period. Don't have some silly nonsense where a light attack restores resources, but if a players holds onto the button for just a fraction of a second too long and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing. Don't have some silly nonsense where if someone is charging a heavy attack because they are out of resources, but if they let go of that attack just a fraction of a second too soon and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing.

    Light attacks should do a modest amount of damage and return a small amount of resources. And heavy attacks should do the same, except more: more damage, more resource return. And medium attacks should scale between the two and do a medium amount of damage and return a medium amount of resources. This is the logical, straightfoward thing to do, and it bewilders me that it doesn't work like this.

    A heavy attack is slow and requires a channel, so it should be more rewarding in all aspects. How does "hey, you do more damage as a tradeoff for this annoying channel, but oh no, you don't get any resources back" make any sense?


    PART 3: WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS A COMBAT DESIGNER
    1. Reduce light attack damage. Not by 78%. But by something more modest. 30%?
    2. Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
    3. All light attacks restore resources. Something small like 50. (So for someone weaving perfectly, this would be a modest 100 regen.)
    4. Keep the current Live levels of heavy attack resource return.
    5. Medium attack damage and resource return will be somewhere between that of a light attack and heavy attack, scaling with the duration of the channel.
    6. Make Empower affect all basic weapon attacks: light/medium/heavy.
    7. Edited to add: Increase the damage of spammable abilities by an amount comparable to the reduction to light attack damage. This would maintain the current power level for people who weave successfully (thus effectively shifting damage from the basic attack to the ability), while increasing the power level for those who miss weaves (they would still do less damage, but the gap would be smaller).
    If you look at the current lower-APM options--what people hawk as "easy" builds--they're often light-attack-spam (werewolf) or heavy-attack-spam builds. Let's reinforce these options and make them more effective. That's why I propose increasing the damage from consecutive, non-weaved attacks. Of course, these things should not be too effective that they outclass "high-APM" options (we still want a skill gap!), but they should be more effective than they are now (thus lowering the effect of the skill gap). The increase for non-weaved attacks should more than compensate for the 30% nerf to light attack damage that I am proposing.

    As for the "middle class" vs. "upper class", an outright nerf to light attack damage (without adding some secondary effect like a ridiculous 400 regen to perfect weavers) will slightly narrow the gap between the two because it will affect those with higher LA/s more than those with lower LA/s.

    And finally, on the consistency/intuitiveness front, it makes no sense to apply a resource return to light attacks but not heavy attacks, just as it makes no sense to do the opposite. What makes sense, though, is for a heavy attack to just be a stronger light attack in every way--in both damage and resource return--as compensation for it being a slow channel.

    Ultimately, the end result should be...
    1. A raising of the bottom floor, in which people who just spam basic attacks are better off than they are on Live. A buff to consecutive, non-weaved damage will help with this (and should more than compensate for the LA damage nerf) and reinforce the current popular low-APM options. ZOS's proposal doesn't help the floor at all, since a severe nerf to LA damage with no compensation simply serves to deprive the "lower class" of combat options and forces them into only using heavy attacks.
    2. A narrowing of the gap between the "middle" and "upper" classes. Reducing the damage of weaved light attacks is the key here. In contrast, ZOS's proposal just replaces the lost direct damage with indirect damage in the form of massive sustain.
    3. A system where heavy attacks are more desirable, but not so desirable that people who prefer high APM feel compelled into sluggish heavy-attack rotations. While ZOS's current proposal doesn't quite push people into a HA-meta, it does come dangerously close with that insane 78% damage nerf to LAs.
    4. Heavy and medium attacks should be rewarded for their cast times, which not only means more damage, but also more resource return. Be consistent.

  • Jarrods32
    Jarrods32
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    Any plans to raise the damage of spammable skills?
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    The fact that light and heavy attacks don't cost resources to cast is enough. No need to attach additional sustain to them.
  • Preechr
    Preechr
    Soul Shriven
    If players are actually trying to mouse click their way through dungeons without using their skills, they are not playing the game correctly (unless their build optimizes for that somehow I suppose) and shouldn't be catered to. If players expend the energy and time to optimize their actions, they should be rewarded for that effort with higher than average results. Those that aren't willing or are otherwise unable to play at that high level should get lesser results. Call it a skill gap or call it an effort gap, but whatever you call it doesn't change the fact that it exists and mucking around with stuff to devalue the effort expended to play well and reward lack of effort isn't a smart move.

    The OP is far better than the current PTS proposal for reworking basic attack, but that's mostly because what's being proposed on PTS makes no sense at all. The players that only light attack aren't worried about regen and the high level players have already built in the regen they need. Adding regen to light attacks won't help bad players and will allow great players to tweak their built in regen down and add more damage to their rotations.

    Its difficult to reconcile any of this with shrinking the skill/effort gap. In fact, it seems like when a game studio highlights a problem and proposes a solution that doesn't address the problem at all, either you're dealing with idiots or they aren't being honest about why they want to make certain changes.

    Then the players propose a better solution to the "problem" that makes more sense and has the added bonus of making the top end players even more powerful... also a bit disingenuous.

    There's a third way: Accept that having a skill/effort gap is not actually a problem. The age of E-Sports is coming, guys. Handing out participation trophies for bad gameplay isn't a good look, and neither is punishing effort and practice. There is nothing at all wrong with having a game that has a few parts that are so difficult that only those that can function at the top level can participate in it. Players suffering from a disability that doesn't allow for that level of play are generally OK with the idea that their disability limits what they can do, and players that aren't willing to work at something but still expect to be the best at everything simply need a reality check.

    Just build dungeons and arenas that are harder than veteran and stock them full of unique cosmetics that the elites can show off. Don't lock off anything important for people that can't get in. Embrace the fact that a small percentage of your players are willing to get really, really good at your game, then find a way to profit off that.
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