The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
STAY AWAY FROM BOSSES! Report system trolled.
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atwon23✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »While manually farming bosses in public spaces where others are clearly also trying to get a chance at them may not be the most polite thing to do, it is not a violation of our Terms of Service nor is it something you should report people for. Now, if you're using a bot program to farm, yes that behavior should be reported, and yes we will ban those individuals to Oblivion. If you're found to be deliberately abusing our report system, we may take action on you, so please don't. Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act.
Thanks for clearing this up once and for all.
Edited by atwon23 on April 17, 2014 10:08PM0 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »While manually farming bosses in public spaces where others are clearly also trying to get a chance at them may not be the most polite thing to do, it is not a violation of our Terms of Service nor is it something you should report people for. Now, if you're using a bot program to farm, yes that behavior should be reported, and yes we will ban those individuals to Oblivion. If you're found to be deliberately abusing our report system, we may take action on you, so please don't. Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act.
So.. now you have me asking what is botting that I can report? I would just as soon report characters who appear to be botting and let the GMs sort it out. From the following situations I saw last night that I reported:
1. 10 characters, all with different variations of spelling of their names standing on top of the spawn spot of the boss in a public dungeon. As soon as the mob spawned, they ALL attacked him and he died in under 15 seconds. This was repeated 5/6 times before we finally got a hit in. Made it almost impossible for any in my group of four to get a hit in and complete the achievement for the dungeon.
2. 5 characters also standing on top of the final boss of a smaller public dungeon. When he/she/it spawned, (could not tell, as it died to fast to even see), any in the area literally went into combat and back out it died so fast. On that one, the only reason my group got the kill was because, after three attempts, I put a HoT on the guys, before it spawned, so we got kill credit.
Threatening those of us who take our game time, that we could be playing and try and make the game better by combating botting by reporting potential bots, with bans if we report people who say they are not botting but who appear to be, will just make it so no one wants to report them. This will lead to more player frustration than we are already experiencing.
How about instead, you can only get XP and loot from a dungeon boss once every hour or so, so they get no reward from the experience? I see you are addressing loot in the post, but handicapping the XP would also help discourage it.Edited by Darlgon on April 17, 2014 11:49PMPower level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.1 -
atwon23✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »While manually farming bosses in public spaces where others are clearly also trying to get a chance at them may not be the most polite thing to do, it is not a violation of our Terms of Service nor is it something you should report people for. Now, if you're using a bot program to farm, yes that behavior should be reported, and yes we will ban those individuals to Oblivion. If you're found to be deliberately abusing our report system, we may take action on you, so please don't. Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act.
So.. now you have me asking what is botting that I can report? I would just as soon report characters who appear to be botting and let the GMs sort it out. From the following situations I saw last night that I reported:
1. 10 characters, all with different variations of spelling of their names standing on top of the spawn spot of the boss in a public dungeon. As soon as the mob spawned, they ALL attacked him and he died in under 15 seconds. This was repeated 5/6 times before we finally got a hit in. Made it almost impossible for any in my group of four to get a hit in and complete the achievement for the dungeon.
2. 5 characters also standing on top of the final boss of a smaller public dungeon. When he/she/it spawned, (could not tell, as it died to fast to even see), any in the area literally went into combat and back out it died so fast. On that one, the only reason my group got the kill was because, after three attempts, I put a HoT on the guys, before it spawned, so we got kill credit.
Threatening those of us who take our game time, that we could be playing and try and make the game better by combating botting by reporting potential bots, with bans if we report people who say they are not botting but who appear to be, will just make it so no one wants to report them. This will lead to more player frustration than we are already experiencing.
How about instead, you can only get XP and loot from a dungeon boss once every hour or so, so they get no reward from the experience? I see you are addressing loot in the post, but handicapping the XP would also help discourage it.
I think reporting players who appear to be botting and reporting farmers are two different things. I also think its fairly easy to tell a bot from a farmer. Unfortunately Ive seen post after post by people stating they will report anyone who farms bosses, even if they know their not bots. This is a clear abuse of the report system as stated by ZOS.
There is no mistaking this statement: Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act.
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MonkofDoomSoul ShrivenAs one of those "self proclaimed white knights" when I come across a botswarm, I notify in say "if you don't want to be reported as a bot, take a lap around the room" I do get some less than cordial responses sometimes but that's good enough to not be reported. I couldn't care less if someone is actively farming the boss but people running bots can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned.0 -
J3K✭It's the perfect system. Instead of speaking up to join a group of farmers and getting credit, people just nerdrage and mindlessly report everyone present for not playing the game toward their explicit benefit. Optionally, the bots report all their competition and the legitimate players get banned instead.
Awesome.
So can you turn my account back on now?0 -
theres no "think" about it- bots are illegal and people looking to make a buck (farming) is considered legitimate activity. bots are too obvious in my opinion to say you can't tell one from the other. who in the world can have split second reaction to a massive body mass of that very same boss which in turn dies and contributes to that body mass. i would say the bots are even in violation of griefing now that i think about it, since leaving a million corpses couldnt really be that much of an accident and just a way to hinder others from tagging and killing first.
get a range ability if you can thats instant cast and point at the center of the mass of corpses. in most cases, you can safely spam the ranged ability at the target location and not aggro others. using heals will help also. its not a fix but it may help ya in the tag race. i guess this is the downside of no "target forwarding" or auto attack =/.I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.
Martin A. Treptow
1894-19180 -
zakugm✭"Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act." Im not taking time from my play time to do your job.1
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J3K✭"Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act." Im not taking time from my play time to do your job.
Then don't take the time to report them either. Do it right or don't do it at all. This half-ass attitude is the reason I'm missing even more play time for no legitimate reason.
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Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭No because Zenimax does not agree and told me directly to report these people gives me the right to do so. Did you miss that part or something? To be fair I Lways /say I am doing so, most people just sling insults at that point.
To be perfectly blunt if they go rid of everyone wjo thought this was cool and the way the game was intended to be played my game could only improve. What you seem to refuse to realize if you are hurting my game by playing like that. .. but you know you are you just do not care about other players. So why even play online? Yo can farm for years in Skyrim why not just play single player or farmville if all you want to do is farm... you certainly do not need to be online ruining my gameplay to achieve this but for some reason made the conscious decision to do so.
Who told you this? Show your proof. Because boss farming is NOT against Zenimax's TOS.
"...farming these bosses, while possibly not very courteous of others who are trying to have a shot at the content too, is not against our Terms of Service.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/597542/#Comment_597542
So whoever told you that, if anyone, is not only wrong, but has told you to do something that will probably get you banned in the long run. Reporting someone and getting them banned or suspended is a big deal. And to do it to players that aren't even bots just because you don't like how they play is repulsive, and I hope you get what's coming to you.
I kill the boss for the quest (if it has one), and for loot after, for items to deconstruct to level my crafting profession, and to get a few soul gems and potions, and it is just as valid a reason as any other, including killing the mob for a quest. Nobody can tell me their way of playing is more important than mine, or that their time comes before mine, that I have to defer to you, the "holy" immersive quest completer, because your priorities are more important than mine. I have just as much right to kill the mob as anyone else, as many times as I want, and Zenimax said so; "...The act of manually farming these bosses, while possibly not very courteous of others who are trying to have a shot at the content too, is not against our Terms of Service." Killing a boss faster than another does NOT equal "blocking" or griefing. It's PUBLIC dungeon. It's not your dungeon, and it certainly isn't your mob/boss. You (and your style of gaming) aren't more important than anyone else. It's a public dungeon in an MMO for crying out loud! Get over yourself. You can't impose restrictions on gameplay, whether farming or gathering or whatever. If a person is so inclined, and has the time, they can, and should, be able to play as they see fit. And if that means gathering for ten hours, or killing dungeon bosses for ten hours, it doesn't matter, and it doesn't make it wrong. And Zenimax agrees.
You don't get to dictate how I choose to play this game. A mob/boss belongs to everyone, to kill whenever, and however many times, they want.
You sir/madam are currently my Hero of the Forum. Well Said
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Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭What is with the whack-a-moles?
It is not about farming people and NO ONE has an issue with that. What we do take serious issue with is hinderinv other peoples gameplay.
Seriously what do these types just not understand about that? Are they miasing tue basic concept or something? You can still farm perfectly well In the overland go hard and have it.
You are NOT allowed to hinder another player which is exactly what was happening and for god sakes. this is AGAINST your precious TOS and no amount of bold will change that. Get over yourselves already.
Additionally as they are changing bosses to not be farmable it turns out I and everyone else which is a large number can very much dictate how you play thee game or more precisly how you may not.
Actually not getting to hit the boss does not hinder your progress, I get credit for being there when the boss dies. Thus I complete the dungeon without having to compete for a hit.
I do however compete for a hit and it's very rare that I miss. I've also never seen a bot!
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Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭
9. It is not my job to determine who is bot and not if your standing in the corpse humping pile and dont move you get reported. Do not care you are a bot and interfering. ZOS is welcome to tell me not too but they wont because they agree duh.
I would appear they don't agree and are telling you not to. Have fun , keep smiling.
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MagickeSoul ShrivenIt is absurd to suggest that this behaviour is not affecting gameplay. I wasted hours on a couple of alts standing around watching bots to try to tag various bosses, I got 1 hit in all evening and 1 soulgem. The bots are on every boss after late evening.What is with the whack-a-moles?
It is not about farming people and NO ONE has an issue with that. What we do take serious issue with is hindering other peoples gameplay.
Seriously what do these types just not understand about that? Are they miasing tue basic concept or something? You can still farm perfectly well In the overland go hard and have it.
You are NOT allowed to hinder another player which is exactly what was happening and for god sakes. this is AGAINST your precious TOS and no amount of bold will change that. Get over yourselves already.
Still waiting on your proof that they told you to report people, NOT bots, farming dungeon bosses.
Here's mine again,
"...farming these bosses, while possibly not very courteous of others who are trying to have a shot at the content too, is not against our Terms of Service.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/597542/#Comment_597542
Now you're talking about hindering, but nobody is doing that that I've noticed, and certainly not me. I'm not killing the boss to "block" someone else from completing something. I'm not some high level camping a level 15 dungeon boss and one-shotting it the instant it spawns for the sole purpose of preventing other players from completing it, all the while gloating about it to them. Intent is everything. My intent is to kill the boss for loot, for items to deconstruct to level my crafting profession, and to get a few soul gems and potions, to progress my character, and it is just as valid a reason as any other, including killing the mob for a quest. I'm progressing my gameplay, my crafting. Nobody can tell me their way of playing is more important than mine, or that their time comes before mine, that I have to defer to these "holy" quest completers, because their priorities are more important than mine. I have just as much right to kill the mob as anyone else to progress my character as I see fit, as many times as I want, and Zenimax said so; "...The act of manually farming these bosses, while possibly not very courteous of others who are trying to have a shot at the content too, is not against our Terms of Service." Killing a boss faster than another does NOT equal "blocking" or griefing.
@Daverios I agree entirely.
@Dracovar Nobody is suggesting to report everybody boss camping. If you read, there is clear advice to check to see if a player is just behaving like a bot. Daverios is right to report players indistinguishable from bots, and persistent and abusive campers are also fair game. This is not an abuse of the system imho.
Anyone can /s or move or indicate that they are behind the keyboard. It takes a human brain to judge when refusal to communicate, group up or just sit back for a spawn or 2 to let the crowd have a go turns from selfishness into griefing. That is what customer services wants us to do. By reporting a player who is not reading chat, eating and drinking, or in a bad mood and doesn't care you give them time to think. That should be unlikely but maybe they need to think about what they are doing more? Crumbs are bad for your keyboard and so is coffee
Furthermore, while boss camping may be within TOS it is not playing the game. It is self-entitlement from people who think they should have more and better loot faster than anyone else at the sacrifice of enjoyment. That is not a "play style". Therefore anyone wishing to experience game content they are paying money and time for does have the right to tell you their way of playing is more important than yours. (@Dracovar still) I do agree with most of your posts, clearly MMO is all about knowing the best spots and farming is the key to crafting for fun and profit.
The real issue here is about the bots and accepting that griefing and blocking players is not always deliberate. Courtesy and consideration is the solution, not banning players working to clean up the game. Therefore ESO customer support need this cooperation. I would suggest that while bots are on every boss your "play style" is verging on exploit riding on multiboxing bots' backs, and unresponsive selfish players who block any chance of a tag are just begging to be caught in the report crossfire... repeatedly...
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Daverios✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Folks, we've said this other places on the forums but there seems to be some misinformation floating around so we'll say it again. While manually farming bosses in public spaces where others are clearly also trying to get a chance at them may not be the most polite thing to do, it is not a violation of our Terms of Service nor is it something you should report people for. Now, if you're using a bot program to farm, yes that behavior should be reported, and yes we will ban those individuals to Oblivion. If you're found to be deliberately abusing our report system, we may take action on you, so please don't. Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act.
When we see something we feel could work a little better, we do welcome your feedback, and will make a change on our side if we feel it's necessary. For example, we are making some changes to how often people can get loot off of bosses in public spaces, as explained in this post.
Hi Jessica.
Please go speak with Daniel your direct boss whom told me to do this. He is welcome to call me back personally and tell me not to, he has my phone number and personal email. But quite plainly as we discussed I will continue to report ANYONE standing in the 'corpse humping pile'.
Also to note I own multiple accounts because I have the money and like having my alts on a different account. My main account (one associated with this forum id) was hit with the lovely bank bug, which is the only bloody reason I am on your forums again. So most of these reports I have filed of late have NOT came from this account anyway.
As we discussed it is not my fault every single time I get to a cave 50 people are standing in a 'corpse humping pile'. As discussed with Dan he wished me to report those ones and so I have been doing so and will continue to do so. Anyone running around and doing other stuff is obviously legit, I only report those standing in one place continually as THAT is to be reported, and when he asked me what my number one issue was this is exactly what we talked about. So hopefully this fix is in today will resolve any cave boss 'corpse humping' bot farming, player insulting piles as I for once just once oh please god just once I would love to enjoy a cave without all this garbage which is effecting MY game play. And cause a lot less headache all around and to you CS folks as well.
This was not at all how the game was intended to be played, again as we discussed. If ZOS would like to officially state this is how the game was envisioned and meant to be played I will gladly take my money back and file my grievances legally as that is not what was advertised nor expected upon purchase. It is up to you all to clean up this mess and sort out who is legit and who is a determent to the game. If you believe I am the determent because I play legit, do not camp anything, teach other players in game about researching and crafting, hand out items to new players and generally try to get along except for strongly raising a few issues I see as truly 'game breaking' then I am happy to discuss that with your personally. Why don't we get a conference call going?
Thanks and have a nice day.
Here is an example of players Dan wished me to reported who were clearly not using any automated program (like that should matter and it does not when you stand there and press 1 button) yet still having an obvious negative effect to other players.
"140414-007394"
"Just following up on this.
Player and their partner who was also reported were set up immediately behind the boss at end of cave crouched and sneak attacking and insta gibbing as soon as boss spawned like 0.03 seconds no joke, as well as laughing at and giving attitude to anyone trying to complete the cave.
Poor behavior. If they want to pay a sub to farm thats their business but they by no means needed to exploit sneak attacks with strongest attacks in game if all they wanted was kill credit each time. Insulting and giving attitude was just bad form on top of the rest."
If you do not think this is happening in every single instance of every single cave or public dungeon in the game then you seriously should log in some time..Edited by Daverios on April 18, 2014 5:22PM1 -
LocnarSoul ShrivenYou can go to just about any closed dungeon and find bots on the boss. I've reported a few with the exact location and names.
These bots will follow the Boss NPC if you use a knock back on it. Once they kill the Boss NPC they all move back to the spawn point and stand right on top of one another.
It's happening in every single dungeon. We report them but really, just have the GM port to any fast spawning Boss NPC in any dungeon and you will see between 10 and 15 paid for bot grinding service toons.
It's bad enough they are botting but the outcome was to remove loot from these mobs which just screwed rest of the paying customers.0 -
Dracovar✭✭✭It is absurd to suggest that this behaviour is not affecting gameplay. I wasted hours on a couple of alts standing around watching bots to try to tag various bosses, I got 1 hit in all evening and 1 soulgem. The bots are on every boss after late evening.
@Dracovar Nobody is suggesting to report everybody boss camping. If you read, there is clear advice to check to see if a player is just behaving like a bot. Daverios is right to report players indistinguishable from bots, and persistent and abusive campers are also fair game. This is not an abuse of the system imho.
Anyone can /s or move or indicate that they are behind the keyboard. It takes a human brain to judge when refusal to communicate, group up or just sit back for a spawn or 2 to let the crowd have a go turns from selfishness into griefing. That is what customer services wants us to do. By reporting a player who is not reading chat, eating and drinking, or in a bad mood and doesn't care you give them time to think. That should be unlikely but maybe they need to think about what they are doing more? Crumbs are bad for your keyboard and so is coffee
Furthermore, while boss camping may be within TOS it is not playing the game. It is self-entitlement from people who think they should have more and better loot faster than anyone else at the sacrifice of enjoyment. That is not a "play style". Therefore anyone wishing to experience game content they are paying money and time for does have the right to tell you their way of playing is more important than yours. (@Dracovar still) I do agree with most of your posts, clearly MMO is all about knowing the best spots and farming is the key to crafting for fun and profit.
The real issue here is about the bots and accepting that griefing and blocking players is not always deliberate. Courtesy and consideration is the solution, not banning players working to clean up the game. Therefore ESO customer support need this cooperation. I would suggest that while bots are on every boss your "play style" is verging on exploit riding on multiboxing bots' backs, and unresponsive selfish players who block any chance of a tag are just begging to be caught in the report crossfire... repeatedly...
You "wasted hours standing around watching bots to try to tag various bosses"? So you were trying to farm bosses as you already had credit for the kill... Careful, Daverios will falsely report you. And no, there are not bots on every boss. As a matter of fact I have only seen one player I found suspicious, and then only because they had a name like, "ffsddhvvn", or something similar. BUT, I don't think they were botting because they would run around killing trash while waiting for the boss to spawn. I farmed a boss yesterday for a while. The whole time there were no more than seven of us there and zero bots. It seems like you're purposely exaggerating. Why would you "waste hours" for one soulgem? That's way more dedicated farming than most any farmer would commit to.
No there is not clear advice to check if a player is "just behaving like a bot." She said to MAKE SURE. Boss farming is NOT against TOS. It is perfectly okay to do so. You, or Daverios, have no right to report someone for just boss farming and you will get yourself into trouble for doing this, as Jessica said. Let's look at what she said:
"While manually farming bosses in public spaces where others are clearly also trying to get a chance at them may not be the most polite thing to do, it is not a violation of our Terms of Service..."
NOT a violation to FARM bosses.
"nor is it something you should report people for."
You're NOT to report someone for farming a boss.
"Now, if you're using a bot program to farm, yes that behavior should be reported, and yes we will ban those individuals to Oblivion."
Yes, I agree, ban those bots.
"If you're found to be deliberately abusing our report system, we may take action on you, so please don't."
If you deliberately abusing our report system, something which some in this thread have admitted to doing by reporting people that they knew were only boss farming and not bots, you will get yourself into trouble, as you should. She says DON'T do this. DO NOT report people for farming bosses. It is NOT against the TOS.
"Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act."
Make SURE the person is an actual BOT, NOT just a player FARMER.
It's not hard to understand. She spelled in out in very clear language. People can farm all they want. YOU can't report people for doing so. If you do YOU will get into trouble because it's false reporting. Bots can be reported, but you must be SURE they are a bot. And no, what you call "persistent and abusive campers" are NOT fair game. Zenimax has stated in more than one place that boss camping/farming is NOT a violation of their TOS. I can stand there all day and kill any boss I want over and over and there is NOTHING wrong with it. Got it? Just because you don't like it, you don't have the right to falsely report someone. On the contrary, if you do report someone for this, YOU could be the one getting in trouble. And I sincerely hope people that deliberately abuse the system are delt with harshly.
A couple of other things. I am under NO obligation to respond to your, or anyone's, attempted communication with me in game. Who do you think you are? Who are you that I have to "prove" something to you? That I'm a real person and if you command I prove my humanity I have to jump when you say jump? Nobody, that's who. Please show me in the TOS where it says I'm at the mercy of over-zealous false reporters unless I do what they say. You people are crazy. With you false reporters, it's always guilty until proven innocent. You take the dispicable tactic of marching into a room, declaring everyone has to do what you say they have to do, or you'll report them as bots, and then when players ignore you (as is their right) you falsely report them as bots. I truly hope that when Zenimax gets caught up and they start looking into all this nonsense, that all of you that engage in this type of repulsive behavior get what's coming to you. Zenimax does NOT want you false reporting someone whose only "crime" was refusing to communicate and react to the ridiculous demands of arrogant, entitled, crybaby, self-important, over-zealous annoyances. I don't have to prove anything to any of you.
Again, YOU don't define what is, or isn't, playing the game for other players. I pay to play this game too, and I WILL play it how I want. YOU don't get to define a "correct" play style, lol. Do you even know how ridiculous that sounds? There ISN'T one correct play style. Your play style is NOT more important than mine and I don't have to defer to you. Get over yourself.
Lastly you say that griefing is not always deliberate. THAT is the very definition of griefing: Deliberate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer
Intent is everything. It is not my intent to grief or block, therefore I am not a griefer. I go in to a public dungeon, kill the trash, kill the boss for the achievement. Then I stick around and kill the boss some more for the blue item, some potions, some soulgems, some items to deconstruct for crafting, and possibly some set pieces. And there is NOTHING wrong with that.
Zenimax doesn't need you to spam them with false reports. You're not a Zenimax employee. It's like some of these people are like those lunatics that impersonate a cop. I know some of you want to believe that you're a special snowflake, and that Zenimax "needs" you be an off the books vigilante ESO cop of virtue, but they don't, and that delusional belief is leading many of you to engage in behavior - illicit, against the TOS type behavior - that will ultimately get you in trouble.
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Dracovar✭✭✭
Here is an example of players Dan wished me to reported who were clearly not using any automated program (like that should matter and it does not when you stand there and press 1 button) yet still having an obvious negative effect to other players.
"140414-007394"
"Just following up on this.
Player and their partner who was also reported were set up immediately behind the boss at end of cave crouched and sneak attacking and insta gibbing as soon as boss spawned like 0.03 seconds no joke, as well as laughing at and giving attitude to anyone trying to complete the cave.
Poor behavior. If they want to pay a sub to farm thats their business but they by no means needed to exploit sneak attacks with strongest attacks in game if all they wanted was kill credit each time. Insulting and giving attitude was just bad form on top of the rest."
If you do not think this is happening in every single instance of every single cave or public dungeon in the game then you seriously should log in some time..
LOL! Yeah, they were GRIEFING. First of all, it doesn't say anywhere in there for you to report anyone. Second, even if it did, it would be for griefing, NOT boss farming! This is what you've failed to mention/realize this whole time and the very thing that matters most. They were purposely killing the boss so nobody else could kill it and "laughing and giving attitude to anyone trying to complete the cave." THAT isn't boss farming. THAT is griefing and is against the TOS. If anything this only bolsters and meshes with everything Jessica and the rest of us have said.
So again. show us where Zenimax told you to report people for boss farming ONLY. NOT griefing, FARMING. Show us.
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Dracovar✭✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »
You sir/madam are currently my Hero of the Forum. Well Said
Thank you...and it's "sir."
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J3K✭To further degrade the reporting process, there's a mod to fill out a report of the last person you targeted with a single keybind. No pop up windows or having to type other than 1 key press. You can falsely report the whole dungeon in seconds. I say again:
Awesome.2 -
Here is an example of players Dan wished me to reported who were clearly not using any automated program (like that should matter and it does not when you stand there and press 1 button) yet still having an obvious negative effect to other players.
"140414-007394"
"Just following up on this.
Player and their partner who was also reported were set up immediately behind the boss at end of cave crouched and sneak attacking and insta gibbing as soon as boss spawned like 0.03 seconds no joke, as well as laughing at and giving attitude to anyone trying to complete the cave.
Poor behavior. If they want to pay a sub to farm thats their business but they by no means needed to exploit sneak attacks with strongest attacks in game if all they wanted was kill credit each time. Insulting and giving attitude was just bad form on top of the rest."
If you do not think this is happening in every single instance of every single cave or public dungeon in the game then you seriously should log in some time..
LOL! Yeah, they were GRIEFING. First of all, it doesn't say anywhere in there for you to report anyone. Second, even if it did, it would be for griefing, NOT boss farming! This is what you've failed to mention/realize this whole time and the very thing that matters most. They were purposely killing the boss so nobody else could kill it and "laughing and giving attitude to anyone trying to complete the cave." THAT isn't boss farming. THAT is griefing and is against the TOS. If anything this only bolsters and meshes with everything Jessica and the rest of us have said.
So again. show us where Zenimax told you to report people for boss farming ONLY. NOT griefing, FARMING. Show us.
read the above.
i havent had to explain this since EQ lol. farming a boss/spawn cant be something to get banned for due to the problem of how would the GMs even begin to TRY to enforce it on ANY mob. it opens up a world of "well technically..." that only works in a world of circular logic- in order to collect 5 drop items for a quest, i have to kill a NPC at least 5 times, if i kill an NPC more than once i get banned for being a "farmer" which circles back to the initial problem of how to get 5 mob drop items. so how does one acquire the quest item? when is farming farming?
farming and griefing are two different things. the first is a personal problem and the second is a community problem.I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.
Martin A. Treptow
1894-19180 -
Daverios✭✭✭✭
Here is an example of players Dan wished me to reported who were clearly not using any automated program (like that should matter and it does not when you stand there and press 1 button) yet still having an obvious negative effect to other players.
"140414-007394"
"Just following up on this.
Player and their partner who was also reported were set up immediately behind the boss at end of cave crouched and sneak attacking and insta gibbing as soon as boss spawned like 0.03 seconds no joke, as well as laughing at and giving attitude to anyone trying to complete the cave.
Poor behavior. If they want to pay a sub to farm thats their business but they by no means needed to exploit sneak attacks with strongest attacks in game if all they wanted was kill credit each time. Insulting and giving attitude was just bad form on top of the rest."
If you do not think this is happening in every single instance of every single cave or public dungeon in the game then you seriously should log in some time..
LOL! Yeah, they were GRIEFING. First of all, it doesn't say anywhere in there for you to report anyone. Second, even if it did, it would be for griefing, NOT boss farming! This is what you've failed to mention/realize this whole time and the very thing that matters most. They were purposely killing the boss so nobody else could kill it and "laughing and giving attitude to anyone trying to complete the cave." THAT isn't boss farming. THAT is griefing and is against the TOS. If anything this only bolsters and meshes with everything Jessica and the rest of us have said.
So again. show us where Zenimax told you to report people for boss farming ONLY. NOT griefing, FARMING. Show us.
No no, I did not misunderstand anything. And I agree it if the griefing and not farming that is the problem. All I was saying is that 'acting exactly like a bot' whether you are at the keyboard or not is detrimental to others around you aka griefing.
The real issue is peoples desire and need to attack others on these forums and the community for having an opinion, quite plainly I will not stand for it and I am perfectly capable of going right over moderators heads if I feel I am being attacked on a personal level because of said opinions.
I could dig up many a post where I say farming is fine just do it outdoors where you are NOT INTERFERING WITH OTHERS PEOPLE GAMEPLAY AND GIVING A NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE. That is griefing whether intentional or not, and you can be reported for such. Do I think they should just mass ban everyone? No, but I also do not think it is my job to figure out who is legit and who should maybe get a warning, and who should get outright banned. Shockingly this is exactly how they are making the change, so I am totally on board with ZOS in this regards.
Edited by Daverios on April 18, 2014 8:17PM2 -
Dracovar✭✭✭
No no, I did not misunderstand anything. And I agree it if the griefing and not farming that is the problem. All I was saying is that 'acting exactly like a bot' whether you are at the keyboard or not is detrimental to others around you aka griefing.
I could dig up many a post where I say farming is fine just do it outdoors where you are NOT INTERFERING WITH OTHERS PEOPLE GAMEPLAY AND GIVING A NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE. Shockingly this is exactly how they are making the change, so I am totally on board with ZOS in this regards.
Nothing short of a direct phone call, would change my mind one way or the other as well I got my info straight from them already. .
How does one "act" like a bot? If you mean farming a boss, then you are wrong. There is no "acting" like a bot. Either you are one, or you are not. It is not griefing per the definition of griefing. Farming is NOT griefing.
And thank you so very much for giving us your approval and permission to farm "outdoors." How is farming "outdoors" any different than farming in a public dungeon? Everything that can be found in a public dungeon is also found "outdoors." Quest mobs? Check. Chests? Check. Trash mobs? Check. Sky Shards? Check. Bosses? Check. Etc., etc.
You may be shocked to believe that you once again believe you and Zenimax are in agreement when you're actually not, but I am not. First of all, they haven't made any changes and there have been two patches. Second, when/if they do, they still have not said you can't farm dungeon bosses! They are doing this to discourage botters, not actual players that are farming. And when/if they do implement it, there will be a huge backlash and my bet is that it will be taken back out. In the mean time, what will happen is people will kill the boss, run around kill trash for however long they're on cooldown, then rinse and repeat. The boss will be the only thing on cooldown, and only for loot, not exp. There will still be lots of people farming the dungeons, including bots. Trash in public dungeons give good loot too. The only reason people mainly kill the boss is because they can stand in one place and it's easier. Put the boss on a loot timer and people will just run around killing all the trash mobs until they can kill the boss again. Not to mention you still get experience for killing the boss, so people may just continue on killing the boss even though they aren't getting loot. Maybe they like to level by grinding mobs. Not against the TOS.
You still have offered NO proof of anything you supposedly were told. What did they tell you exactly? What you posted earlier doesn't back you up. It backs everyone else up and what Jessica has said. But no, you talked on the phone to the "boss." Right, and we have no way of knowing who you talked to or what was said. It's hearsay. But we don't have to go on hearsay, do we? We have proof, in writing, in more than one place, right here on the forums for everyone to see, including yourself.
"Nothing short of a direct phone call..." Do you hear yourself? Seriously, get over yourself, you're not that important. Do you hear that Zenimax? Get your "boss" on the phone asap, how dare you keep Daverios waiting!
What do you think they're going to stand behind? Something a CS rep supposedly said during a phone call that you took out of context and cannot be proven, or something a Zenimax rep has put in writing on their official forums for everyone to see? Exactly.
4 -
Daverios✭✭✭✭@Dracovar Sorry but I owe you no proof. I do however refuse to fight or argue any further and apologize for getting sucked in. I did say I would try to not do so, and really desire to avoid the forums because of this kind of toxicity. I really wish there was another route for getting information on the current issues effecting me in game. All I want is to enjoy a game in peace with my friends online without being abused, molested, taunted and otherwise steamrolled by the likes of these people.
If that is not a product that Zenimax wishes to deliver I am happy to part ways but I made a compromise and a deal with the business to stick it out and I would still like to see this game become better and more enjoyable for everyone regardless of their play style and I got the distinct impression so do they. I do not understand why so many and those replying here believe theirs is the only play style that matters, but I guess that is something for ZOS to sort out as a business and decide whom they want to keep around long term.
I hope you have a pleasant weekend and it all swings your way.
FYI not sure if you seen this, it was suppose to be pushed in today: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/78524/upcoming-patch-highlights-in-progress-updates/p1
Public Dungeon & Delve Boss Monsters – Also based on feedback, we will be placing a timer on how often you can get loot from public dungeon and delve boss monsters. This timer is shared across all boss monsters in public dungeons and delves. This will not impact loot timers for quest-specific monsters or overworld group bosses. Watch the patch notes for news on when this change will go live.
Edited by Daverios on April 18, 2014 9:40PM2 -
Dracovar✭✭✭@Dracovar Sorry but I owe you no proof. I do however refuse to fight or argue any further and apologize for getting sucked in. I did say I would try to not do so, and really desire to avoid the forums because of this kind of toxicity. I really wish there was another route for getting information on the current issues effecting me in game. All I want is to enjoy a game in peace with my friends online without being abused, molested, taunted and otherwise steamrolled by the likes of these people.
If that is not a product that Zenimax wishes to deliver I am happy to part ways but I made a compromise and a deal with the business to stick it out and I would still like to see this game become better and more enjoyable for everyone regardless of their play style and I got the distinct impression so do they.
I hope you have a pleasant weekend and it all swings your way.
FYI not sure if you seen this: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/78524/upcoming-patch-highlights-in-progress-updates/p1
Public Dungeon & Delve Boss Monsters – Also based on feedback, we will be placing a timer on how often you can get loot from public dungeon and delve boss monsters. This timer is shared across all boss monsters in public dungeons and delves. This will not impact loot timers for quest-specific monsters or overworld group bosses. Watch the patch notes for news on when this change will go live.
And I am sorry, but if you come in here saying you're going to report everyone you see for simply farming and not responding to your communication in game because that's what you were told to do by a Zenimax rep, then you are going to be asked to prove it. You can't expect to say those types of things without people calling you out and asking questions. I too, just want to enjoy the game with my friends and family without being "abused, molested, taunted, steamrolled by the likes of those people." But for me, I have to add to that list the constant worry of being falsely reported as a bot because of people like you. That is not cool. I farm sometimes, that is all, and that is not against the TOS.
Yes, I saw that post and referenced it in some of my posts. Like I said, they didn't say you couldn't farm still and you still get exp from killing the boss, you just don't get loot for however long the timer is, and people will just farm the surrounding trash mobs until they can kill the boss again, in my opinion. I also believe that when/if they implement the timer, there will be such a backlash that they will eventually take it back out. They put that in to discourage bots, not farming, as farm isn't against the TOS, and even though you wouldn't get loot, you can still stand there and kill the boss over and over as many times as you want for the exp.
I want nothing more than for this game I love to succeed and for everyone to be able to enjoy themselves, as best as can be expected.
Peace.
Edited by Dracovar on April 18, 2014 9:37PM2 -
Daverios✭✭✭✭@Dracovar Sorry but I owe you no proof. I do however refuse to fight or argue any further and apologize for getting sucked in. I did say I would try to not do so, and really desire to avoid the forums because of this kind of toxicity. I really wish there was another route for getting information on the current issues effecting me in game. All I want is to enjoy a game in peace with my friends online without being abused, molested, taunted and otherwise steamrolled by the likes of these people.
If that is not a product that Zenimax wishes to deliver I am happy to part ways but I made a compromise and a deal with the business to stick it out and I would still like to see this game become better and more enjoyable for everyone regardless of their play style and I got the distinct impression so do they.
I hope you have a pleasant weekend and it all swings your way.
FYI not sure if you seen this: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/78524/upcoming-patch-highlights-in-progress-updates/p1
Public Dungeon & Delve Boss Monsters – Also based on feedback, we will be placing a timer on how often you can get loot from public dungeon and delve boss monsters. This timer is shared across all boss monsters in public dungeons and delves. This will not impact loot timers for quest-specific monsters or overworld group bosses. Watch the patch notes for news on when this change will go live.
And I am sorry, but if you come in here saying you're going to report everyone you see for simply farming
Peace.
Just trying to make nice, but I really think this is where we got off on the wrong foot. I do have nothing against nor would report anyone for 'farming' if they are running around mindlessly just gathering, killing, and doing as they please. That is great I am 100% all for that.
I only take issue with those that would act like and take advantage of these bosses 'just like a bot' and then claim to not be doing anything wrong cause hey my key was pressed by a finger not a program. The distinction does not matter to those of us who are effected by it, the result is the same to us. And it is detrimental to the game and their business as a whole.
I was only attempting to point out the issue from the viewpoint of someone who is seeing negative effects, and having thoughts of not bothering to subscribe. And has already told others to 'wait and see what happens' specifically because of this issue. It is not just me many feel the same and the forums are littered with these posts. Something obviously needs to improve.
1 -
Night_Watch✭✭✭Hey all,
I'm a bit 'bugged out' just now!
I have nothing against multiboxers (and I know what the term means) and I have nothing against people farming loot - even from 'bosses'.
I would not report someone for getting to a kill before me or for farming loot or for multiboxing.
I do draw the line at apparent autoing or bot usage.
Thing is, it is easy to say "Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act.". How are we to make sure though? Do we have to sit and watch someone for an hour or more before we decide this?
Case in point and why I'm 'bugged out'; I have just logged out of the game as I was put of by what I thought of as someone botting. Before I logged out though, I reported a player as it looked like the player was botting then I left the low level area I was in (Stonefalls>Inner Sea Armature).
What made me think the player was botting? There is a mob / boss in the named area called 'guardian sphere' and there were several characters that seemed to be singles (one player one character) that tried, as I did, to get a 'kill' and thus loot from the 'guardian sphere'.
The player I reported appeared to be part of a group of four or five that all moved together around the same spot. At first I thought it could just be a multiboxer and that was just unfortunate for the singles. Then I noticed that the characters that seemed to be moving as one in a group all had random letters for their names - letters that made no words and no sense. After trying several times to get the 'kill credit' and loot, I had had enough. Every single time the mob / boss appeared it was 'insta-killed' by the group. This to me looked very much like automation.
Was the player I reported in the group? I was certain this was so.
Did the group look like a legitimate multiboxer? To me, no.
Was the group automated? This, in my view, was true.
Was the apparent automation unfair to others (singles). Certainly so - it looked like no one else could get the kill.
Was I right to report? Yes, I think so.
I'm now 'bugged out' because I may be accused of false reporting and then have action on my account and this seems unfair. I'm on a limited budget but have managed to buy ESO and put money aside for monthly subs. I cannot afford to be banned and just throw that money away. I feel any cheat that spoils my, or others, enjoyment of the game (as it seems in this case) ought to have action against their account(s).
Multibox away - no problem - just have consideration for others.
Farm an area or boss - no problem - just have consideration for others.
Auto / bot and ruin the game for others - get what you deserve - a ban.
If I make a genuine error in a report I expect to be chastised accordingly. However, when I see apparent cheating or deliberate deisruption of others enjoyment of the game and report such (backed up with screen shot), I think it would be unfair to chastise me - and that goes for anyone making a valid report."If there is an underlying oneness of all things, it does not matter where we begin, whether with stars, or laws of supply and demand, or frogs, or Napoleon Bonaparte. One measures a circle, beginning anywhere."
Charles Fort - Lo! (1931)1 -
Hey all,
I'm a bit 'bugged out' just now!
I have nothing against multiboxers (and I know what the term means) and I have nothing against people farming loot - even from 'bosses'.
I would not report someone for getting to a kill before me or for farming loot or for multiboxing.
I do draw the line at apparent autoing or bot usage.
Thing is, it is easy to say "Make sure the person you are reporting is actually botting before you act.". How are we to make sure though? Do we have to sit and watch someone for an hour or more before we decide this?
Case in point and why I'm 'bugged out'; I have just logged out of the game as I was put of by what I thought of as someone botting. Before I logged out though, I reported a player as it looked like the player was botting then I left the low level area I was in (Stonefalls>Inner Sea Armature).
What made me think the player was botting? There is a mob / boss in the named area called 'guardian sphere' and there were several characters that seemed to be singles (one player one character) that tried, as I did, to get a 'kill' and thus loot from the 'guardian sphere'.
The player I reported appeared to be part of a group of four or five that all moved together around the same spot. At first I thought it could just be a multiboxer and that was just unfortunate for the singles. Then I noticed that the characters that seemed to be moving as one in a group all had random letters for their names - letters that made no words and no sense. After trying several times to get the 'kill credit' and loot, I had had enough. Every single time the mob / boss appeared it was 'insta-killed' by the group. This to me looked very much like automation.
Was the player I reported in the group? I was certain this was so.
Did the group look like a legitimate multiboxer? To me, no.
Was the group automated? This, in my view, was true.
Was the apparent automation unfair to others (singles). Certainly so - it looked like no one else could get the kill.
Was I right to report? Yes, I think so.
I'm now 'bugged out' because I may be accused of false reporting and then have action on my account and this seems unfair. I'm on a limited budget but have managed to buy ESO and put money aside for monthly subs. I cannot afford to be banned and just throw that money away. I feel any cheat that spoils my, or others, enjoyment of the game (as it seems in this case) ought to have action against their account(s).
Multibox away - no problem - just have consideration for others.
Farm an area or boss - no problem - just have consideration for others.
Auto / bot and ruin the game for others - get what you deserve - a ban.
If I make a genuine error in a report I expect to be chastised accordingly. However, when I see apparent cheating or deliberate deisruption of others enjoyment of the game and report such (backed up with screen shot), I think it would be unfair to chastise me - and that goes for anyone making a valid report.
thankfully you answer your question in your question. what is being argued about is the machine-gun kelly style of just point and shoot reporting. if you in good faith, report someone for potential violations and they are found to be innocent (there are methods to confirm the violations) you will not be in danger of them disciplining you. an example would be you attempting to report a gold seller site ad, and accidentally reporting the name above theirs, you probably wont see any disciplinary action. that wont apply if you do it say 50% or more of the time.
just FYI i dont think there is an auto-follow command in this game. as someone that used to dual-box i used auto follow to make it work. no auto-follow means third party program, which means they may be botting or using an unauthorized mod. dont quote me on that though...I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.
Martin A. Treptow
1894-19181 -
Night_Watch✭✭✭ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »thankfully you answer your question in your question. what is being argued about is the machine-gun kelly style of just point and shoot reporting. if you in good faith, report someone for potential violations and they are found to be innocent (there are methods to confirm the violations) you will not be in danger of them disciplining you. an example would be you attempting to report a gold seller site ad, and accidentally reporting the name above theirs, you probably wont see any disciplinary action. that wont apply if you do it say 50% or more of the time.
just FYI i dont think there is an auto-follow command in this game. as someone that used to dual-box i used auto follow to make it work. no auto-follow means third party program, which means they may be botting or using an unauthorized mod. dont quote me on that though...
Thanks for the considerate reply.
I truly only reported because it looked very much like automation, I explained in the report that it looked like automation too. I really would not want an innocent player to be banned due to a bad / false report. I was just trying to point out that not everyone that submits reports of suspected cheating or such is doing so maliciously. I want to enjoy the game and want others to enjoy it but can easily see how some players are way to inconsiderate of others (this is on all sides of the current debate).
As for auto follow and third party apps / addons etc. I too used to multibox from time to time in other games. In one f2p game it was just to make my own guild! Yeah not good to some but it had no ill effect on other players. The other multiboxing I did was only short lived as an experiment to see if I could and again had no ill effect on others. So! (Not to quote as such ) I agree with you on that! Edited by Night_Watch on April 19, 2014 12:00AM"If there is an underlying oneness of all things, it does not matter where we begin, whether with stars, or laws of supply and demand, or frogs, or Napoleon Bonaparte. One measures a circle, beginning anywhere."
Charles Fort - Lo! (1931)1
