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Time to speak about balance.Shield bash spam.
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Tweek✭✭✭Little wall of text:
In current state, when you are fully specced in a sword/shield line:
-You have better dmg with one bash (which takes about ~1 sec or less), than with fully charged (bow etc.) attack (~2 sec).
-Because you are constantly blocking, all offensive abilities with defensive mechanisms (like scatter shot) don't work. Furthermore using one will be propably interrupted, and cause mini-stun on you.
-My attacks are gimped because you are constantly blocking.
-Even if you start to block (with bow/2h/dual), your stamina will be eaten on blocking-only long before shield-spam user run out from his .
-You can't runaway from it, because nearly every shield user have at least one gap closing ability (charge or grab).
So against shield bash:
-you can't run
-you can't sustain
-you can't fight back
-opponent have full defensive potential
And for people, who are saying PvP shouldn't be around 1v1:
I saw shield bashers eating 3 and even more people with this "tactic". More than once or twice, in fact it's more common than the other way. Heck, the only situation when shield basher is eaten, where when he is big outnumbered (1vs4+), or other person has ininitiation bonus (from stealth) and eat him before he reacts and turns face to him to spam till victory.
In fact, whenever i see shield vs anybody: It's safe to assume shield will prevail in like 9 out of 10.
=====
What is problem?
We have too many benefits for no risk, and low cost. Shield bash:
-low cost in stamina
-quick to execute
-quick to repeat
-big damage
-reducing incoming damage (because of blocking stance)
-resisting most incoming cc effects (because of blocking stance).
As far as i understand, this skill is designed mainly as interrupting ability with some damage tied to it. Now it's main role is pure DPS.
How to fix it?
-rising cost im stamina.
With higher cost, user can execute less attacks. Problem with this approach is that, if the cost will be set too high, benefits from interrupting will be too small.
-rising execution time.
With increased "cast time", user can execute less attacks. Problem with this approach is that, we limiting amount of reaction time for interrupting.
-adding post-execution time.
With added delay, user can bash less times. Problem with this approach is bit complex: if we render user unable to attack, gains from interrupting are gimped. Adding any sort of CD will be wrong from "anti-cd" design point-of-view. spammability can be fixed also with little knock-back, so tank will waste some time to close that gap, and not stuned target will have window to act.
-cutting damage
With less damage, spam will deal...less overall damage(Cpt. Obvious!). It's one of safest way to cure problem with shield spamming. I think if regular bash will deal less/equal damage to quick attack (with stamina cost), and with interrupting bash high-damage left, situation will be fixed, without rendering whole mechanic useless/OP.
This is fine, but if shield bash is nerfed than there should/will be stronger one handed skill tree attacks such as puncture and low slash. TBH make puncture do another 150 damage and cost 10 less stamina, and then implement your fix on top of it.
Not that is needs to be nerfed at all mind you.
EDIT: Yeah I guess it needs to be nerfed and this is the best way...make it cost more stamina....instead of 50% less make it 25% less, and then make puncture or low slash a bit better offensively(dps).Edited by Tweek on April 18, 2014 8:35AM0 -
Zeeed✭✭✭Besides that OP sounds like he was one of those *** rogues in wow that sit in stealth all day long on wsg and burn other players only when off cooldowns...0 -
Sleepydan✭✭✭And stop acting like 1button kill is fine.
Just for clarity. Aren't most things one button kills? crystal frag spam? critical charge spam? force spike spam? etc.
I mean nothing has a cooldown. It's 5 button whack a mole. Which brings me to my point. I think the only part about your entire 2.5sec zerg super-kill is that it can be done with 5 other abilities on the bar.
Although, I feel like I wish more melee moves were actually LIKE shield bash, in that you didn't need to push a button for them to work. I wish that moving forward when you attacked did a poke attack, and sideways did a sweep. You know, like every other TES game did. The game that I wished had pvp so I could do THAT SAME STUFF in against other people.
But I digress. That's not the way they build the world, and that's the part that stands out as different and stronger than anything else. I say if any change, give it something that has to be on your bar to work, like concealed weapon in NB as an example.0 -
Rhythmic✭✭✭Besides that OP sounds like he was one of those *** rogues in wow that sit in stealth all day long on wsg and burn other players only when off cooldowns...
Nope,i was actually one of the top arena players,but u can enjoy ur dreams about how skillful spambasher you are.
I mean nothing has a cooldown. It's 5 button whack a mole. Which brings me to my point. I think the only part about your entire 2.5sec zerg super-kill is that it can be done with 5 other abilities on the bar.
Nope it cant.Only with spambashing.
And again,only spambash abusers,defending their imbalance style of the game,in this thread.Edited by Rhythmic on April 18, 2014 9:27AM1 -
Zeeed✭✭✭Rhythmic i dont even do pvp in this game cause it sucks so dream on. For proper pvp fix they should move servers to EU for starters.0
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Reavan✭✭✭I love how people run here defending their broken style of play without thinking of the consequences.
Do you guys really think eso would be successful if such broken abilities remain?
The answer is no and while you think its fun to smash people 1v1 with impunity imagine only one campaign being avaliable to do that in after 3 months.
Ive seen lesser things destroy new mmos.
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The_Emproer✭✭while i've seen a LOT of shield bash spammers lately, I havent died to any of them. it's not overpowered if you exercise some awareness, and realize you need to back off and spam the blocker with quick attacks to wear down their stamina. without Deadly Bash 1h/shield really just doesnt do much damage at all, i think it's fine that they have this little trick up their sleeves0
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Branbran✭✭Alright, I saw that video. And it looks like it's balanced for PVE group content. Guy's stamina was draining pretty fast and that's not sustainable in an actual boss fight.
Since ESO is most likely not going to split what something (it's not even an active skill, it's a passive plus the blocking/bash mechanic) does for PVP and PVE and you call for a nerf for PVP it's pretty much going to trash it for PVE.
So, ultimately you either come down on this mechanic on either the PVE or PVP side. Which is more important? Which group of players does Zenimax want to cater to?Winter-Time
by Robert Louis StevensonLate lies the wintry sun a-bed,
A frosty, fiery sleepy-head;
Blinks but an hour or two; and then,
A blood-red orange, sets again.
Before the stars have left the skies,
At morning in the dark I rise;
And shivering in my nakedness,
By the cold candle, bathe and dress.
Close by the jolly fire I sit
To warm my frozen bones a bit;
Or with a reindeer-sled, explore
The colder countries round the door.
When to go out, my nurse doth wrap
Me in my comforter and cap;
The cold wind burns my face, and blows
Its frosty pepper up my nose.
Black are my steps on silver sod;
Thick blows my frosty breath abroad;
And tree and house, and hill and lake,
Are frosted like a wedding cake.0 -
VileIntent✭✭✭✭"Deadly bash" skill should be nerfed/redesigned.
2.2k damage bursts for 2-3seconds,with almost no stamina cost.It deals more damage in PvP than 2h sword,DW or bow.
If you meet shielded enemy 1v1 you can run,or being shieldspammed to the death.You can't stun/share/immobilize bash spamming enemy,because he's holding block,and ALL he need to do,to kill you is spamming shieldbash (300,500crits vr1 dk/templar).
That ability should be nerfed/redesigned ASAP.
I asked couple(16persons to be honest) of veteran PvP/Sologankers , (including fame PvP'ers like Kesil),and they completly agree with it.(most of them says its is a kind of bad joke,or "it will be nerfed sooner than bolt escape")
Press RMB to win or interesting PvP?
Increasing shield bash GCD(global coolodwn) would be a good solution.So u cannot spam anyone to death for 2sec charge stun.
roflmao, good luck dragon talons is broke to hell and back and still hasn't been added to the CC break list to give you an immunity to it.
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Veakoth✭✭✭Shield Bash is NOT OP
I'll explain
1. The stamina drain is heavy and leaves you unable to attack if you run out
2. Simply CC breaking a shield charge and blocking will leave your opponent empty of stamina costing you nothing with them sitting there useless and ready to die.
3. My friend and i tested this build with full legendary Vet 10 gear, legendary enchants on all of his gear, shield, jewelery, food buffed and found its average damage is 400-500 with 1.7k sneak hit being the absolute max damage, not going to talk crit because crystal shards can out do this sneak damage with ease.
4. After finding out how lack luster this build is and noticing that people only die to it out of ignorance and noobness he returned to his powerhouse build that unlike shield bash won't run out of usefulness after 10 seconds of a fight when your stamina is drained to 0.
5. The Only way i see this build being viable for OP posts is 2-4 sets of the medium vet dungeon gear giving 25% stamina regen to your group and that's if the set bonus even stacks with itself.
I also need to add, whoever came up with the 2k or 2.2k damage per bash needs to put up or shut upEdited by Veakoth on April 18, 2014 1:43PM3 -
twistedmonk✭✭✭@Veakoth - thanks for the real information.
Edited by twistedmonk on April 18, 2014 2:17PM0 -
alsaud_✭"Deadly bash" skill should be nerfed/redesigned.
2.2k damage bursts for 2-3seconds,with almost no stamina cost.It deals more damage in PvP than 2h sword,DW or bow.
If you meet shielded enemy 1v1 you can run,or being shieldspammed to the death.You ca
Increasing shield bash GCD(global coolodwn) would be a good solution.So u cannot spam anyone to death for 2sec charge stun.
I am a DK tank , i totally agree with you
however nerf should be done but not in pve mode ....
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Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
You don't get you are the ONLY one in this thread arguing for a nerf.
Open your eyes ,and read the thread before posting.
I'd say,only persons who use shield bash spam argue against me and my arguments.Jim_McMasterub17_ESO wrote: »"Time to speak about balance, shield bash spam..."
*facepalm*
Are you serious?
Suggesting nerfs to powers you & everyone else has had less than two weeks to learn & implement tactics for or against?
...I knew this would happen, I knew as soon as people hit 10 & were in PvP mode they'd want to start altering every fraking power in the game to match their particular playstyle.
1.I am vr2.
2.I am hanging in cyrodiil and sologanking since level 10 (march 31).
3.I have 4years competive PvP experience from game,with(possibly) most hardest and competive PvP system.World of...game we dont name here.
4.And yes i believe i can argue and tell about obvious imbalance,when i have tryed MANY ways to defeat it,with 2 different classes,with different weapons and playstyles,while having a decent PvP exp from ESO and...that game.
5.And i every person with vr3 or more,which i duo gank with(ex WoW and SWTOR players),tell me same things about shield bash.That things include 1 common word.That word is : "broken".
[/quote]
Let me make this as clear as possible in light of the events that are currently ongoing in the game...
We...Don't...CARE
..about power balance in PVP at the moment;
the game is BROKEN less than two weeks after launch, & personally I want every developer that had anything to DO with this game called to task, & standing tall before the man making this RIGHT.
Go back to WoW & have fun in their nerfed-tohell class system & PvP your little heart out until you feel this game is worthy. ...while you're gone, when there's time, we'll be looking into the player power set issues.
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Rhythmic✭✭✭Shield Bash is NOT OP
I'll explain
1. The stamina drain is heavy and leaves you unable to attack if you run out
2. Simply CC bre....
Yeah no stamina cost,is "heavy".
Let me show u again an example of "HUGE HEAVY AS MOON STAMINA COST".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPoKHYhigII
Pls stop posing urself like selfish noobs,who cares only about pwning ppls with one buttons.
Peopls like you are killing MMO's since 2009.1 -
1) this guy is lvl 30 fighting lvl 28 weak quest mobsShield Bash is NOT OP
I'll explain
1. The stamina drain is heavy and leaves you unable to attack if you run out
2. Simply CC bre....
Yeah no stamina cost,is "heavy".
Let me show u again an example of "HUGE HEAVY AS MOON STAMINA COST".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPoKHYhigII
Pls stop posing urself like selfish noobs,who cares only about pwning ppls with one buttons.
Peopls like you are killing MMO's since 2009.
2) Shield bash cost about 130 stamina + extra cost for blocking the hit at the same time
3) Shield bash isnt the best dps option by far so you wont see dps running around shield bashing bosses in dungeon
4) a tank based character wont shield bash spam in dungeon because that stamina is used for blocking hits
Shield bash is tank's only damaging attack giving them an option to level by themself at reasonable speed. If pvper cry babies care that much about their zerg vs zerg balance then change deadly bash to only proc the extra damage against npc and call it a day0 -
Veakoth✭✭✭Sounds to me like Rythmic got butt hurt at some stage and can't let it go. What you have failed to realize is stamina regen isn't percentage based but your cost is, you gain tons of stamina while you level, have fun using it at lvl 28 or whatever, at VR1 your screwed. This is a TWINK BUILD ONLY.0
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Rhythmic✭✭✭at VR1 your screwed. This is a TWINK BUILD ONLY.
I just *** facepalmed here.
Sounds like me and other,adecvate peoples in that thread who agrees with me,is just playing on twinks,and against twinks only.
You dont even know what you are talking about,and i am 100% sure you are another kid who can play only with spamming shield bash and proudly call it "TACTIC".
See that kind of rage,against simple guessing to "redesign" and "investigate",proves u are cant do anything in this game instead of pressing shieldbashes to the win.
Go away.2 -
at VR1 your screwed. This is a TWINK BUILD ONLY.
I just *** facepalmed here.
Sounds like me and other,adecvate peoples in that thread who agrees with me,is just playing on twinks,and against twinks only.
You dont even know what you are talking about,and i am 100% sure you are another kid who can play only with spamming shield bash and proudly call it "TACTIC".
See that kind of rage,against simple guessing to "redesign" and "investigate",proves u are cant do anything in this game instead of pressing shieldbashes to the win.
Go away.
Oh shut up, most effective build are about spamming 1-2 buttons
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Sirmati✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Prospero_ESO wrote: »What you need to understand is, this isn't OP at all. It is what One handed and shield was meant to do.
Dude, i have seen people attacking from stealth with shield bash one shotting people, this is one of the most ridiculous skills together with bolt escape. There is no question that the offensive part of the skill has to be adjusted.
And leave sword and shield the weakest weapon in the game? You do realize it has crap for attacks?
You are troll or you just under 50 level and never play pvp...
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Sleepydan✭✭✭Besides that OP sounds like he was one of those *** rogues in wow that sit in stealth all day long on wsg and burn other players only when off cooldowns...
Nope,i was actually one of the top arena players,but u can enjoy ur dreams about how skillful spambasher you are.
I mean nothing has a cooldown. It's 5 button whack a mole. Which brings me to my point. I think the only part about your entire 2.5sec zerg super-kill is that it can be done with 5 other abilities on the bar.
Nope it cant.Only with spambashing.
And again,only spambash abusers,defending their imbalance style of the game,in this thread.
I am not a shield bash user. I'm a 2h critical surge critical charging bolt escaper. Get it together.
That "op" video you linked wasn't particularly op either. Oh no, a shield user killing an equal level mob in what like 10 hits? While magic users behind him in the same video were doing it in like 3?
Sidestepping an "elites" attacks while it got chipped down with the allegedly stupid high damage stam dump wasn't particularly impressive either.
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Sirmati✭Elmojito1000eb17_ESO wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Its called tactics, get behind him flank him etc. If your pissed because your getting stomped 1 v 1.......
I have 3 characters that use shields.
One of them has no skill points invested in any active skills, all into passive.
It is very powerful indeed, i do not even use my weapon at all with this character.
I am not saying, it needs a nerf, but for you to say "tactics" is just silly.
You can charge into the enemy, and keep bashing and deal huge damage.
It needs to be investigated is what i am supporting, it does more damage than a two handed character of mine with all attributes into stamina.
I don't think this is correct I use a dps calculator(Warlegend HUD Addon) and the two hander is about x1.6 more effective than shield bashing. As per damage per second....which is about right.
No need to nerf the only offense move tanks/one handers have.
Also if it is nerfed as said above, low slash and puncture need their damages boosted(dramatically) and stamina requirements lowered(somewhat)
Yea and you don't forget about shield immunity to dmg/effects??
Or you forget about one thing. Shield do dps with immortal stance. I mean (of course u play with shield dont you?) u can do dmg with shield but enemy dont have chance to deal dmg to you...0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the biggest issue with it right now is honestly the Damage Glyphs, They simply add way to much damage. Bash itself without them is fairly good damage, but its not to a point where its down right extreme.
For example, Imagine if you could equip a glyph that increased the of one of your abilities by a flat value of 26. So Puncture which hit for say 225 now hits for 251. Now imagine if you could equip 3 of those Glyphs, that basically what the Bash Damage ones do right now
What they should do is either remove those glyphs, or another option, Make those Glyphs increase the cost of Bash by an equal amount, so they do 26 more damage, but bash requires 26 more stamina.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
tossop✭✭shield bash stamina cost on lvl50 with stamina reduction jewellery and deadly bash passive is about 40-50, as NB with 1800 stamina and siphoning attacks on, u can spam shield bash infinite:
stamina:1800
bash cost:~ 40-50 stamina
siphoning attack : 10% chance to restore 15% stamina with every bash
1800*0.15*0.1= 27 stamina return per shield bash
stamina regen: 80 per 2sec = 40 per sec = 20 per 0.5sec
shield bash attack speed: 0.5s
27 +20= 47 stamina per shield bash.
Every time u use shield bash u get back 47 stamina, if your shield bash would cost 47 stamina, its free high damage ability.
As redguart u have another stamina reduction, so i dont see problem getting 50 stamina back with every shield bash, after all u can use endless shield bash spaming, what is bigger dps then infinite shield bash spam???0 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭Deadly bash should only deal its extra damage on an interrupted spellcast or channel. That'd be the fix i go with, then it rewards skilled gameplay but not spamming.0 -
No other class can spam anything forever. if anything the only thing you managed to prove with this post is siphoning being too goodshield bash stamina cost on lvl50 with stamina reduction jewellery and deadly bash passive is about 40-50, as NB with 1800 stamina and siphoning attacks on, u can spam shield bash infinite:
stamina:1800
bash cost:~ 40-50 stamina
siphoning attack : 10% chance to restore 15% stamina with every bash
1800*0.15*0.1= 27 stamina return per shield bash
stamina regen: 80 per 2sec = 40 per sec = 20 per 0.5sec
shield bash attack speed: 0.5s
27 +20= 47 stamina per shield bash.
Every time u use shield bash u get back 47 stamina, if your shield bash would cost 47 stamina, its free high damage ability.
As redguart u have another stamina reduction, so i dont see problem getting 50 stamina back with every shield bash, after all u can use endless shield bash spaming, what is bigger dps then infinite shield bash spam???
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Sleepydan✭✭✭You are aware siphoning strikes reduces all damage from everything you do by like 25% right?0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jzKJi_aCBg&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_BaTpZNpLY&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw