Why are players dropping like flies?
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Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭lordrichter wrote: »The reason nerfs happen is that lots of players use the skills that OP, and in doing so, attract the attention of ZOS. An OP skill that no one used, if such a thing could exist in nature, would not get nerfed unless something else caused it to be adjusted.
Bottom line is that the people who follow the "meta", those who attempt to maximize DPS, are the ones who cause nerfs. That is how this studio seems to work.
Well duh, obviously for pve ZOS looks at their metrics and if they see trials top scores be done by groups with certain group composition they eventually start nerfing it, running something super popular - you are bound to be on the nerf radar in the next big patch. Or it stays like that, until a new Chapter/DLC will bring the next big thing, then the oldies get often adjusted be the 2nd picks.
What comes to PVP balance and nerfs.. it often is clearly affected also by the "cry-0-meter", things that get crying especially from people that have a main or just playing class or 2 at most since they usually copy paste their build from a streamer, but unlike the possibly decent streamer they are not capable of dealing with good opponents, thus nerf cries start after they realize their meta build does not win against better opponents, and thus means some skill then must be "OP" and the whole reason they lost or keep dying - instead of adapting their own play.
Not saying it is always wrong to ask something to be adjusted, but you all know how those nerf requests are: "____ needs to be nerfed to the ground!" when that _____ is the only thing that counters their build. But for sure are they fast to come defend their own classes strong points if someone else dares to do same request on theirs. It would be comical if was not so harmful for the entire game imo.
Edited by Moonsorrow on November 13, 2019 12:59PM0 -
apri✭✭✭✭
ESO has leaderboards. It has achievements. It has an overwhelming lot of title unlocks (which would be even better if it came along with more cosmetics and mount unlocks). So there is an incentive to keep on playing the content that is in-place or is added for those who are into PVE endgame. They have a lot of reasons to keep on playing to push for better and better scores or other achievements.I’m not sure any game can sustain endgame raid players. ESO produces 1 new trial and 4 DLC dungeons a year, which seems like a lot for most players, but if you’ve completed the trial, and got all the achievements in, say, 2 months, and that’s your thing, you are going to move on because there really isn’t anything else for you until the next trial comes along.
However, and here is the catch, it is less a matter of skill at some point but a matter of the game's performance how likely or not it is to achieve what you are going for in the end. How can you get a no death in a dungeon or a trial if everytime someone crashes or disconnects? Or if something stupid happens like mobs not rendering on-screen and basically causing a wipe. This is where frustration kicks in. On top comes frustration which is way easier to control and therefore to avoid with the constant buff/nerf updates.
There is a couple of things that make achievements a lot harder on console than on PC. You named easy skill and set switches but even more prominent are the timers and potent buff trackers on PC. The game basically tells anyone the mechanics, it makes call-outs obsolete or at least easier by a grand mile and everyone gets to see what is of individual importance. That is like having a personal trainer on your side during the trial while console players don't have anything else but general awareness and basic call-outs.Is that not because PC players have the advantages of quick set and skill change options, so they can more easily adapt/prepare before any fight?
I would assume that the fighting abilities of console players matches that of PC ones, so it’s not that PS players are doing less damage or have worse strategies than PC ones. It’s that the time limit, which is tight for PC, is the issue.
This makes trials more accessible for starters and achievements easier to accomplish for endgamers on PC. Also lag is less prominent and some of the bugs seem to be worse on console than on PC. At least this is the feedback we console players get from people who did the switch to PC and get a feeling of almost godlike play. Therefore the same achievement on console is a lot harder to get than on PC. If you want another layer of difficulty on top of HM, hop over to console.
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martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭All I know is
- PvP is less enjoyable for some - world of tanks
- Overland is too easy to keep the attention or anyone but new players and people who like the story
- Too many meta changes in quick succession
- Performance issues e.g. EU server, BG queues, Cyrodil lag
- People like me disgruntled with 'class identity' - I basically have to play a tank brawler now in pvp for nb to be competitive - not how I want to play
- Harder to get groups for vet trials, whilst normal is just pug easy
- Lack of trust between players and Zos e.g. multibidding
Although I am seeing new players in my guilds a lot of longstanding and loyal players fading away, more-so than usual. New players don't always stay long.
At least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*4 -
StormChaser3000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because the game becomes pointless to play after all quests are done. I've been playing for 1.5 years and I've finished all but a few side quests and there is nothing for me to do anymore.
1. PVP was fun for about a month. Then it turned out that it's actually repetitive and large scale PvP turned out to be laggy.
2. Ganking in IC was fun only for a week. Then it got boring too.
3. Dungeons and trials? Why would I run the same stuff all over again after getting the gear I need? I'm not interested in flashy bad designed skins or mounts.
4. Housing? I know some people really like that, but I furnished one notable house up to 70% and now I feel sick of that activity. Well, maybe that's just not for me.
5. The game lacks a lot of features and content for me. I dislike ingame physics. There is no real freedom of movement. You can't dive, you can't glide. Your mount disappears if you walk into 3 inch deep water... Standing on a 30 degrees roof cause sliding down... Can't climb over a 3 foot fence... No sailing, no sea battles, no ocean content. Fishing is boring as maximum as they could make it. 3D models aren't designed well and in certain poses and outfits body parts can look extremely deformed (that's a shame for such serious game company). That's just some of the examples.
Don't get me wrong. Those were quite nice 1.5 years thanks to questing, testing new builds and fun experience with the community. But now it's time to take a very long break. Maybe I'll come back if they introduce a new chapter with a cool story and interesting new features. Until then.. well there are plenty of other games I'm exited to try.2 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »I'm reading all this.....
and I'm thinking.... Aren't you guys (generic term) the same people who volunteered to have NO additional Anything if they would just focus 100% on improving the tech side of the game, fix the bugs, and get rid of the lag, make everything run smooth?
And now its- We Must have something brand new every 6 months or all the players will leave!
Can we please pick a stance and stick with it?
For the a billionth time. It’s not a choice. It’s a totally false argument.
The content development team do not do the debugging.
The performance enhancement team do not do content.
Their work only coincides because there are 4 annual updates, which provide testing, QA and delivery target dates.
They are separate teams. They both need to get paid whether they produce anything or not, otherwise the individuals responsible will simply leave. You get zero benefit by having the content developers sitting on their hands not creating content. That solves nothing. And it gives ZOS nothing new to push and contributes to a misperception that ESO is somehow ‘dying’.
Should ZOS spend a load more money improving performance.? Undoubtedly yes.
However, the reality is that it is much, much harder to produce performance improvements that work on PC, Mac, PS4 and Xbox than it is to produce a new DLC dungeon pack.
In terms of players leaving, they leave for many reasons, but a lack of new content and/or a lack of performance would be equally damaging for player retention.
True, and I have been on this side of the discussion.
However, they can simply put the development staff on holiday, save some cash and fix bugs etc.
The one point of rationale I would have on this is any bugs in base code that are causing issues, will continue to cause issues in new content. And thus you end up with an entirely new list of bugs to fix when new content is added because it 'appears' to be new bugs.
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FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ybarney2525 wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »I'm reading all this.....
and I'm thinking.... Aren't you guys (generic term) the same people who volunteered to have NO additional Anything if they would just focus 100% on improving the tech side of the game, fix the bugs, and get rid of the lag, make everything run smooth?
And now its- We Must have something brand new every 6 months or all the players will leave!
Can we please pick a stance and stick with it?
For the a billionth time. It’s not a choice. It’s a totally false argument.
The content development team do not do the debugging.
The performance enhancement team do not do content.
Their work only coincides because there are 4 annual updates, which provide testing, QA and delivery target dates.
They are separate teams. They both need to get paid whether they produce anything or not, otherwise the individuals responsible will simply leave. You get zero benefit by having the content developers sitting on their hands not creating content. That solves nothing. And it gives ZOS nothing new to push and contributes to a misperception that ESO is somehow ‘dying’.
Should ZOS spend a load more money improving performance.? Undoubtedly yes.
However, the reality is that it is much, much harder to produce performance improvements that work on PC, Mac, PS4 and Xbox than it is to produce a new DLC dungeon pack.
In terms of players leaving, they leave for many reasons, but a lack of new content and/or a lack of performance would be equally damaging for player retention.
True, and I have been on this side of the discussion.
However, they can simply put the development staff on holiday, save some cash and fix bugs etc.
Except unless you pay them and provide them with something to do that they find creatively engaging, they won’t be coming back.
And all you’ve done is spent the same money (cos you do want them to continue being paid, right) and lost your dev team.
Nicely played there1 -
Huyen✭✭✭✭✭
✭When it comes to raiding end game, yes that player base has been decimated by ZOS, there are only a couple “full” end-game groups still raiding seriously across both PCEU and NA. This is where the player base has been hit the hardest and where ZOS has cut its losses. It is a real problem and ZOS has to decide if it wants a game with a serious end game when it comes to raids or not.
There is little new content, basically a couple of new raids a year at best, DPS has been nerfed so there is less motivation to push scores since you are always competing against last patch DPS.
It’s purely down to poor combat management by ZOS and a lack of content. Maybe some people would return if a new raid were to come out soon, but for now this group of players have no content to do that they find interesting so they move onto Destiny 2 or something else.
Edit: Forgot to mention long reported but ignored bugs and the worsening server performance of late, that has also been the last straw for a number of veteran players, and this especially should be of concern to current and new players.
There is no real incentive to do end-game trials.Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank - PS4 (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, nightblade dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Lightpaw, templar healer - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, necromancer dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, dragonknight (no defined role yet)
"Failure is only the opportunity to begin again. Only this time, more wisely" - Uncle Iroh0 -
apri✭✭✭✭
In theory it's achievements, titles, scores and such. Then again with the lousy state of the game quite a bunch of desirable achievements are painful to tackle and scores aren't really comparable when you don't compare performance of a group but rather the number of bluescreens or the lucky lack of those. The game's performance basically defeats the content that was created with quite some effort. On top of that the combat team's nerfs make it more difficult so basically ZOS kills the incentive with bugs and nerfs. Bottom line: You're right, there's no real incentive. lolThere is no real incentive to do end-game trials.0 -
Nordic__Knights✭✭✭✭✭
✭I STOPPED PLAYING DUE TO 15 BLUESCREENS AN HOUR AFTER DRAGON WAS RELEASED JUST DONE WITH DEALING WITH *** AFTER 13,000 HRS AND 4 1/2 YEARS IVE MOVED ON AND I KNOW ALOT THATS DONE THE SAME IN THE LAST 2 MONTHS ALSO6 -
OG_Kaveman✭✭✭✭✭Nordic__Knights wrote: »I STOPPED PLAYING DUE TO 15 BLUESCREENS AN HOUR AFTER DRAGON WAS RELEASED JUST DONE WITH DEALING WITH *** AFTER 13,000 HRS AND 4 1/2 YEARS IVE MOVED ON AND I KNOW ALOT THATS DONE THE SAME IN THE LAST 2 MONTHS ALSO
And yet, you are still here.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OG_Kaveman wrote: »Nordic__Knights wrote: »I STOPPED PLAYING DUE TO 15 BLUESCREENS AN HOUR AFTER DRAGON WAS RELEASED JUST DONE WITH DEALING WITH *** AFTER 13,000 HRS AND 4 1/2 YEARS IVE MOVED ON AND I KNOW ALOT THATS DONE THE SAME IN THE LAST 2 MONTHS ALSO
And yet, you are still here.
It's like Hotel California in here. Nordic's checked out, but he isn't allowed to leave.6 -
martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭barney2525 wrote: »
True, and I have been on this side of the discussion.
However, they can simply put the development staff on holiday, save some cash and fix bugs etc.
1. Employment law
2. Employment contracts
3. Responsible employers have a duty of care
via Imgflip Meme Generator
At least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*1 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Are they really dropping like flies or just unsubscribing? Seems like a medical issue to me.1 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Canned_Apples wrote: »the game is livelier than ever.
the devs have done a great job,
Lol no. Not only have I seen a huge drop off in every guild I'm in, but I'm actually starting to recognize names of people I see in the open world. In regards to the latter, in a game with one regional server and no population split outside of chapters, this is a problem.1 -
It's normal for people who have played a game a long time to quit when there are changes (or when they simply get tired of the game). It's also normal for new players to join the game. That's what's happening. Sure, if you've been around for a while, you're going to have a skewed idea of the state of the game when you see a new patch roll out with unpopular changes and several veteran players leaving the game. But that's because you're one of the older players who has decided to stay. There's a LOT of new players here as well.
I'm no fanboy, and I've only played this game for 5 months, but I've done most of the harder content in game and I'm still amazed at how much raw content there is (even if I'm not interested in it, like questing). There's a lot to do here, and once someone's done it all, they'll probably "leave" (take a break, play other games, etc).
I'm not a fan of some changes, and I'm a big critic of their stability issues and flip flopping on events, but the player numbers seem pretty fine to me.0 -
Heatnix90✭✭✭✭✭
✭barney2525 wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »I'm reading all this.....
and I'm thinking.... Aren't you guys (generic term) the same people who volunteered to have NO additional Anything if they would just focus 100% on improving the tech side of the game, fix the bugs, and get rid of the lag, make everything run smooth?
And now its- We Must have something brand new every 6 months or all the players will leave!
Can we please pick a stance and stick with it?
For the a billionth time. It’s not a choice. It’s a totally false argument.
The content development team do not do the debugging.
The performance enhancement team do not do content.
Their work only coincides because there are 4 annual updates, which provide testing, QA and delivery target dates.
They are separate teams. They both need to get paid whether they produce anything or not, otherwise the individuals responsible will simply leave. You get zero benefit by having the content developers sitting on their hands not creating content. That solves nothing. And it gives ZOS nothing new to push and contributes to a misperception that ESO is somehow ‘dying’.
Should ZOS spend a load more money improving performance.? Undoubtedly yes.
However, the reality is that it is much, much harder to produce performance improvements that work on PC, Mac, PS4 and Xbox than it is to produce a new DLC dungeon pack.
In terms of players leaving, they leave for many reasons, but a lack of new content and/or a lack of performance would be equally damaging for player retention.
True, and I have been on this side of the discussion.
However, they can simply put the development staff on holiday, save some cash and fix bugs etc.
The one point of rationale I would have on this is any bugs in base code that are causing issues, will continue to cause issues in new content. And thus you end up with an entirely new list of bugs to fix when new content is added because it 'appears' to be new bugs.
I seriously hope no one ever puts you in a management position for any business.3 -
imno007b14_ESO✭✭✭Canned_Apples wrote: »i dont know what any of you are talking about. the game is livelier than ever.
the devs have done a great job, and have allowed for a tremendous amount of diverse builds in scalebreaker and even more with the changes made in Dragonhold. I can now play how I want without having to worry about my build not being meta.
these new combat devs clearly know what they are doing and talking about.
I for one, cannot wait to see what they think up next.
Dude - or dudette - every iteration of the game will develop "meta" builds. They're simply the best builds that people can come up with within the current state of the game, and then they're adopted by others - because they're the best - and once enough other people start using them then they'll be certified "meta." So you haven't seen an end to them. These latest nerfs just mean that in the coming months a new batch of "meta builds" will be cemented and then you'll start to see (it's already started) more and more people complaining about all the "cheese" builds that supposedly self-respecting players shouldn't use because they're too easy, and others crying for nerfs because they've got their as**es handed to them too many times, and one day (probably not too far off) the devs will get tired of hearing it all and do yet another round of nerfs. And then it will start all over again, and again....2 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭Just sat in a vLoM queue as tank, during east coast Australia prime time, on the day it is the pledge for 35+ minutes (combined total). I can't be the only one who is noticing how dead the game is in Aus?I've hidden your signature.2 -
GlorphNoldorin✭✭✭✭✭Loki, I saw you logged on, I was in vLoM for 1hr, had to leave, we lost a dps, then couldnt get another through the finder.....very dead Aussie evening time2
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TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So, what's the plan? All the big guilds seem to be disbanding or have disbanded on PS4, I have heard of an exodus pre dragonhold on PC as well. All the veteran players seem to have lost interest or just stopped bothering.
It's getting harder to find a good group to even do vSS. Forget vCR. Yes, there are a few groups running around doing the hardest content but it seems a huge number of population has given way.
Is this the beginning of the end? I've played on PC since 2015 and on PS4 since 2018. Things haven't been so dismal in the past 4-plus years.
P.S, I understand dps dropped considerably this patch making the end game harder than before. But most of that content was being done with even less of a damage output when it came out.
Is it perhaps because of the absolute clueless attitude of ZOS? Like triggering people because they can't figure out what they are doing patch after patch?
I'm just trying to figure out if I should invest more time and money or maybe finally move on and wait for a new Elder Scrolls
Edit: no this is not a I quit thread. I still love this game and hope that I am wrong about my feelings.
It would make sense if it did because of the abysmal performance, but I don't see any drop off myself oddly enough.1 -
Tatanko✭✭✭✭
Weird. All I hear is how Aus/NZ need their own server. Doesn't sound like anyone would be using itI can't be the only one who is noticing how dead the game is in Aus? 1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭When it comes to raiding end game, yes that player base has been decimated by ZOS, there are only a couple “full” end-game groups still raiding seriously across both PCEU and NA. This is where the player base has been hit the hardest and where ZOS has cut its losses. It is a real problem and ZOS has to decide if it wants a game with a serious end game when it comes to raids or not.
There is little new content, basically a couple of new raids a year at best, DPS has been nerfed so there is less motivation to push scores since you are always competing against last patch DPS.
It’s purely down to poor combat management by ZOS and a lack of content. Maybe some people would return if a new raid were to come out soon, but for now this group of players have no content to do that they find interesting so they move onto Destiny 2 or something else.
Edit: Forgot to mention long reported but ignored bugs and the worsening server performance of late, that has also been the last straw for a number of veteran players, and this especially should be of concern to current and new players.
I’m not sure any game can sustain endgame raid players. ESO produces 1 new trial and 4 DLC dungeons a year, which seems like a lot for most players, but if you’ve completed the trial, and got all the achievements in, say, 2 months, and that’s your thing, you are going to move on because there really isn’t anything else for you until the next trial comes along. At which point you may or may not be back. You might snack on DLC dungeons when they come out, but fundamentally, once you’ve done the content, there isn’t anything to satisfy your need for gaming challenges. And that’s what drives you just as much as any love for a particular game.
That doesn’t mean ZOS has failed, rather that this playerset is very driven, highly promiscuous, and game mobile, just as many single player gamers are with single player games. You finish a game, you move on, you come back when the next instalment is out. It doesn’t mean you don’t like it, you have simply finished it.
Unless ZOS want to divert all their energies into satisfying a very small proportion of their playerbase, they’re never going to create enough trial content to keep them constantly challenged and there really isn’t a lot of point in making a mmorpg just for the top 1% of players because first, it’s not economically viable and second who wants to make a game that only appeals to 1% of their potential audience?.
In terms of recruitment of endgame guilds, maybe the perception that you need stupid DPS to even be considered is a factor.
I’m still not convinced that numbers are significantly lower than they were this time last year. I’m just seeing a natural turnover of players who outgrow the content for whatever reason and move on to be replaced by new players.
The main pinch point is horizontal progression sucks.how much overland rehashed garbage content does a game need. The story is mediocre ,progressive challenge is non existent and does nothing to engage the player to prepare them for group content. No eso found the market and ist the churn population it's why there is no community in this game it's a vapid cyclone of fledgling and failing guilds . And yes I dont think eso has its peak population but they are very good at selling garbage content to the casual.the sad thing is a game should not play worse then it did 4 years ago.11 -
Recon4thCav✭✭✭I hope every paid trading guild fails. Maybe then we can get an Auction House and stop this stupid ass guild trader crap.4
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Na0cho✭✭✭Pretty sure I’d get bored and quit if I did the same thing multiple times a week.
How many times do you need to do the same trials?
You have all the achievements, all the gear, all the laurels and oohs and ahhs of the community.
Insert nerd voice, “ guys if we swap this skill for that one and this guy stands here and does this when that happens, then we will finish the trial .075 seconds quicker than last time”
No wonder they are “dropping like flies” if that’s what my main focus was in eso I’d prob just delete the game, then myself.8 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭I wonder if PS4 population is low as true end game players may not see anything worth running ATM until the next content comes out. This happens in all other MMOs I have played. When content first comes out for the first 1-2 months the game is highly active and busy. Than by the 3rd or 4th month the game slowly starts to die down. Than the week or two leading up to the new content release players come back to the game.
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