Sancre Tor, this is how easy the game has become.

The Uninvited · February 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

I guess it was a miracle that a lot of us when we were new players before the serious dumb down of the game made it through content.

The Uninvited · February 2020

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

As some people still don't seem to understand what I am trying to say here, maybe this explains it better.

The blue line is where the difficulty is at right now, the red line is where I would like it to be. Not unable to complete by a new player, not overwhelmingly challenging, just a tiny bit more engaging.

But you are failing to take into account that new players often still struggle with these quests. How many times do people have to repeat "Just because you, a veteran player with years of experience, can easily complete content doesn't mean your success is magically transposed onto new players." We get it, you are great at this game with your excellent light attacks and frozen enemies who just do not seem to hit you. You are not the intended target of the difficulty of these quests.

And you are failing to take into account that experience does not matter if only light attacks are used, and that "frozen enemies who just do not seem to hit you" has nothing to do with being experienced or new. More likely that it's a bug.

Look at where I put the difference, between regular overland and public dungeons. Can you honestly tell me that it would be impossible for new players to complete that? Give me a break...

But this isn't about new players. This is about you, a very experienced player not understanding that your experience is what is making it easy.

Can you honestly say making the quest take longer is going to maximize the experience of new players? It isn't. Adding a stun or break free moment (your suggestion) isnt going to increase the difficulty either.

I'm also looking at your graph and the idea that you think vet dungeons are easier to clear than normal trials is absurd.

Your categories should be overland (which includes story/guild quests), delves, public dungeons, World Bosses, normal dungeons, normal trials, vet dungeons, vet trials.

I put those in just for comparison in relation to what I was trying to make clear. I was thinking of putting in an explanation as I was afraid that comment might come up, but I thought it wasn't needed. Apparently, I was wrong.

And you still didnt give an explanation of why you think a normal trial is more difficult than veteran trial. Just putting them in for comparison isn't really a reason to just include then especially when your point is about experienced player difficulty.

I put them in just for comparison, as I wanted to explain where I wanted the main story line difficulty to be (a lot lower).

Now stop with the argumentum ad hominem of "you made a mistake, so every thing else you say is untrue" please. It doesn't really help to make me see your point, you know?

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2020

This is why ZoS should put some more focus on end game PvP content in my opinion. Unless you want dark souls difficulty pretty much all games are easy if you're a decent player. PvP is always more difficult than PvE. However i do understand its not everyones cup of tea. Also, there has been many posts about content being too hard, so what should ZoS do? They are between a rock and hard place. Its either too easy or too hard, and its always subjective.

FierceSam · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

As some people still don't seem to understand what I am trying to say here, maybe this explains it better.

The blue line is where the difficulty is at right now, the red line is where I would like it to be. Not unable to complete by a new player, not overwhelmingly challenging, just a tiny bit more engaging.

Hey dude,

I appreciate the effort you’re making. But with all of that, I have to say, you’re wrong.

And yes, if you made the main questline any more difficult a pile of new, inexperienced players would fail it.

If you made it so that you, as a proficient long term player, would even notice it was more difficult, you’d have swathes of them failing to make it and no one want that. And even then you wouldn’t find it that challenging.

Your fundamental concept, that because Molag Bal is the evil centrepiece of the main quest he should be the hardest boss in the game, is only true if you’re playing a single player game and the main questline is the only quest in town. ESO is not that game.

ESO is a game where the main questline is the easiest part of the game. It’s the gateway drug, the skooma that draws people in and then before you know it they’re doing side quests and delves and World Bosses and public dungeons and dungeons and DLC dungeons and trials. And all of those are more difficult and challenging because they come after the story.

Make the story harder and that doesn’t happen for a pile of people.

You’ve been there and had that first time experience. Let the other people have their go. And when they’ve done it and are all still excited by the game you can say to them “hey champ... come over here.. how about a real challenge?”

TequilaFire · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I guess it was a miracle that a lot of us when we were new players before the serious dumb down of the game made it through content.

When I was new at level 8 at game launch and Doshia was hard I did fail at least twice, but when I finally beat her it felt good and I came out a better player for it.

Rave the Histborn · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

As some people still don't seem to understand what I am trying to say here, maybe this explains it better.

The blue line is where the difficulty is at right now, the red line is where I would like it to be. Not unable to complete by a new player, not overwhelmingly challenging, just a tiny bit more engaging.

But you are failing to take into account that new players often still struggle with these quests. How many times do people have to repeat "Just because you, a veteran player with years of experience, can easily complete content doesn't mean your success is magically transposed onto new players." We get it, you are great at this game with your excellent light attacks and frozen enemies who just do not seem to hit you. You are not the intended target of the difficulty of these quests.

And you are failing to take into account that experience does not matter if only light attacks are used, and that "frozen enemies who just do not seem to hit you" has nothing to do with being experienced or new. More likely that it's a bug.

Look at where I put the difference, between regular overland and public dungeons. Can you honestly tell me that it would be impossible for new players to complete that? Give me a break...

But this isn't about new players. This is about you, a very experienced player not understanding that your experience is what is making it easy.

Can you honestly say making the quest take longer is going to maximize the experience of new players? It isn't. Adding a stun or break free moment (your suggestion) isnt going to increase the difficulty either.

I'm also looking at your graph and the idea that you think vet dungeons are easier to clear than normal trials is absurd.

Your categories should be overland (which includes story/guild quests), delves, public dungeons, World Bosses, normal dungeons, normal trials, vet dungeons, vet trials.

I put those in just for comparison in relation to what I was trying to make clear. I was thinking of putting in an explanation as I was afraid that comment might come up, but I thought it wasn't needed. Apparently, I was wrong.

And you still didnt give an explanation of why you think a normal trial is more difficult than veteran trial. Just putting them in for comparison isn't really a reason to just include then especially when your point is about experienced player difficulty.

I put them in just for comparison, as I wanted to explain where I wanted the main story line difficulty to be (a lot lower).

Now stop with the argumentum ad hominem of "you made a mistake, so every thing else you say is untrue" please. It doesn't really help to make me see your point, you know?

It's not an "ad homenium," it's a fact. Your mistake is a key part of how your whole idea of difficulty scale functions. If you don't understand the hierarchy of difficulty of content then you shouldn't be the person asking for difficulty changes. I also hate to be the one to tell you but you can clear public dungeons with just light attacks so your point of using them as comparison doesn't really hold up. I've never attacked you, nor have I insulted you I've only asked you questions about your own points.

You have to be able to admit you're wrong before you start seeing the points made in the thread

The Uninvited · February 2020

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

FierceSam · February 2020

Well I did my first run through before 1 Tamriel.

Then simply doing the wrong quest in the wrong zone could put you off the game for ages. You couldn’t beat the mini, mini quest boss because you weren’t the right level and you couldn’t level up until you’d finished the quest. Being beaten like that didn’t teach me anything about the game except that it was a real pain in the arse and not much fun at all.

Your belief seems to be that if only the baseline content, the very easiest content in the game, was just a little harder that will encourage players to become better. I profoundly disagree. Based on my experience it will just encourage fewer players to continue.

Players who want genuinely hard content can find it in spades in this game. Very, very few have finished it all. But the main questline is absolutely the last place you want to put any kind of roadblocks.

exeeter702 · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

Well I did my first run through before 1 Tamriel.

Then simply doing the wrong quest in the wrong zone could put you off the game for ages. You couldn’t beat the mini, mini quest boss because you weren’t the right level and you couldn’t level up until you’d finished the quest. Being beaten like that didn’t teach me anything about the game except that it was a real pain in the arse and not much fun at all.

Your belief seems to be that if only the baseline content, the very easiest content in the game, was just a little harder that will encourage players to become better. I profoundly disagree. Based on my experience it will just encourage fewer players to continue.

Players who want genuinely hard content can find it in spades in this game. Very, very few have finished it all. But the main questline is absolutely the last place you want to put any kind of roadblocks.

Roadblock? You mean engaging content that has some semblance of pushback? I love how because there are harder tiers of content in this game, there are those that relegate overland questing to "shut brain off" tier. Being an mmo or a single player game, either way, video games are in the unqiue postion unlike other story telling mediums, to involve the storytelling to the recipient in more involved ways. I will never understand the logic of "when I'm questing, I just want to experience the story without effort". That is such a defeatist mentality. Here is the kicker though, for delivering a narrative in a video game, this has the opposite effect. When you build up an antagonist or obstacle through your writing and interaction, only to then allow the player to beat the finale without even an once of effort, you have effectively taken all the wind out of that sail, full stop. It's when the challenge is present, that the investment really pays off.

Rave the Histborn · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

This is what we've been telling you though. The game hasn't been nerfed, Doshia is as hard then as she is now and just because you thought it was hard back then doesnt meant she was ever hard.

People still ask for advice, request crafted sets, etc. None of that has ever changed either. You're just never going to get the same feeling because this isnt your first character and adding increased HP or extra stuns isn't going to solve that.

MashmalloMan · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[*] We can agree, overland quests are meant for new players. Most people understand this. The problem is, over 50% of the new content in this game per year is designed for overland, quests and exploration. Hell those are some of the reasons this MMO is so amazing. Yet players who understand the game mechanics, have CP and use food can't possibly enjoy any of it because it's like playing Olbivion on ultra easy mode. It takes away all fun out of the new content and frankly turns off players who want to enjoy the new DLC and Chapters. There is absolutely no reason ZOS can't implement a difficulty slider or buff/debuff system that gives gives level 50, 160cp+ players a more challenging experience . If ZOS can upscale level 10-49, then they sure as hell can downscale level 50, 160cp+ players too.
Inb4 someone says "The game can barely handle ability effects, it can't possibly handle a difficulty slider."

Give 3 options that each progressively make your character weaker, but offer a modest bonus to experience/gold/drop rate. Which, by the way, this buff to drop rate already exists on the PTS. If you play a 4 man dungeon with a player that has never done it before, you get a buff in your character sheet that increases drop rate by an unknown amount, but also your gold gain by like 5% I think. You can also look at eso plus and racial passives for all the % increase modifiers they've implemented.

[/list]

Can we stop acting like new players need to be coddled like newborn babies. It should be easy, but acting like they won't understand what to do in a mmo rpg rated 18+ is like saying a new player in Call of Duty won't understand how to press fire to shoot their weapon, it takes all of an hour to learn most of the basic mechanics of a game..

You don't need to destroy the new player experience to make it more enjoyable for veteran players. Some more meaningful mechanics on player quested bosses would go a long way in teaching them how the game works, as well as tuning down at least the Major/Minor buff scaling so that these random and fluxuating stats don't further confuse new players.

Hey dude,

Interesting post. I disagree with many of your assumptions.

1. Overland quests are not meant for new players, they’re meant for everyone. They’re just designed for a ‘new player’ level of difficulty (which we’ll all agree is not that difficult). As someone who uses food and buffs I can and do enjoy them. They are fun stories.

2. You’re assuming that combat challenge is the only form of enjoyment players get from the game. I don’t. I can enjoy the quests for what they are, cool stories that have meaning for my character and make me feel like a principal actor in the drama.

3. I suspect that given this is an MMORPG where you’re not the only player, there are probably many and varied good reasons why ZOS can’t actually “implement a difficulty slider”. And even if there weren’t and ZOS could, I suspect it would never be sophisticated enough to cater for the demands of players who want quests to be more challenging.

4. I love the way that as soon as players get their ‘more challenging’ quest content they admit that really it’s all about extra rewards because “it’s more difficult”. And justify that by saying “well no one’s going to do the harder version if they don’t get a better reward”.

5. Questing isn’t about teaching new players how to play the game. It is playing the game. And I don’t expect new players to have a lot of skills or abilities or gear when they’re finishing a questline on what might be their first week. If they’re anything like I was they will be likely finishing it with a mish mash of totally underlevelled white or green gear, no food or drink, no potions or buffs, limited skills and little game knowledge. And they need to win 99% of the time.

6. If you want to talk about how easy it is to learn, consider that CoD’s entire single player game element is a tutorial designed to get players into the online game. It’s long and goes into a lot of detail and new players are still no good at the game when they have finished it (because hey PvP is a blast eh). In contrast ESO’s latest tutorial involves you light attacking 3 times. And that’s about it. Next step dragons.

So forgive me if I’m a little disparaging when some long term player tells me how it’s a disgrace that he’s able to beat a questboss with a fully kitted out and buffed character and years of experience simply by light attacking a lot.

I don’t want questing to be more challenging for me if that’s going to [snip] up the game for lots of new players.

1. Yes, I wasn't trying to say overland was ONLY meant for new players, just that it's so easy in it's current itteration that new players are really the only people to see a challenge out of it and thats sad to me. I want to enjoy it the way I use to be able to enjoy it, at least as an option.

2. I'm not assuming anything. I can only speak for myself and I'm personally dissapointed in paying for dlc to receive a large amount of the content as story/quests/exploration that is designed very well, yet it's difficulty is exactly the same as what a new player experiences so I have trouble enjoying it. I'm not a new player. It's simply made way too easy for players who have been here longer than 1 dlc cycle. It's very unfortunate that there is no option to make it more difficult so I can enjoy it the way I want to without hurting anyone elses experience.

3. It doesn't need to be sophisticated and it already exists as I stated in my original comment, but in the reverse order. All enemies and gear is dynamically scaled to max level, in fact, beyond max level since low level players have their major/minor buffs/defbuffs and sets scaled higher than their actual intended design. If ZOS can buff players 1-50 dynamically in ONE Tamriel, then they sure as hell can nerf them at max level. There also wouldn't need to be a gradual decline, 3 options is all players need. Options would go a long way, you can't please everyone, but saying "catering to the demands of player would never be met" is not a reason to not implement a feature this game desperately needs.

4. There has to be some type of risk vs reward, it doesn't have to be big, but thats literally how every part of this game is designed whether you like it or not. It's a balance, but you should reward players for trying harder content, to entice them to try new things and play longer. What do you have against players earning 10% more gold or drop rate for nerfing their damage by 30% or taking 30% more damage. Why is this point for you so hard to swallow as if the only reason people want harder overland and quests is for more rewards, I haven't seen many people mention this at all?

5. Fair point, but it's still a good opportunity. You can add challenge without it being detrimental to the player with vet esque wipes, thats how normal RPGs work. You introduce harder content over time to give players time to get use to the mechanics. Light dungeon mechanics here and there aren't going to destroy the experience for people, but they teach people how important it is to block or bash, etc. They already have this on some enemies, but they seem to just forget about them on others.

6. Except, the single player campaign in COD has a difficulty slider.... so I'd agree with you if it was on Easy mode the whole way through with no option to change it (ESO), except it has those options available and it works very well. Some of the hardest gameplay I've ever done was playing through COD single player campaigns on the hardest difficulty where the NPC's practically had aimbotting, which was frankly harder than online players. You could say that was a tutorial just like you could say ESO's overland is, but at least COD offers you options to get more of a challenge.

"I don’t want questing to be more challenging for me if that’s going to [snip] up the game for lots of new players."

OP aside, my comment was talking about an option that could satisfy both parties, it's clear some people are happy with the current difficulty and some aren't. 1 thing is undeniable, once you understand the game and have any actual working set combination with food, etc. Overland becomes a cake walk and the quests become trivial for people who are unsatisfied with killing a major "threatening" boss in 10 seconds. Why can't we give players more options?

[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

Rave the Histborn · February 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[*] We can agree, overland quests are meant for new players. Most people understand this. The problem is, over 50% of the new content in this game per year is designed for overland, quests and exploration. Hell those are some of the reasons this MMO is so amazing. Yet players who understand the game mechanics, have CP and use food can't possibly enjoy any of it because it's like playing Olbivion on ultra easy mode. It takes away all fun out of the new content and frankly turns off players who want to enjoy the new DLC and Chapters. There is absolutely no reason ZOS can't implement a difficulty slider or buff/debuff system that gives gives level 50, 160cp+ players a more challenging experience . If ZOS can upscale level 10-49, then they sure as hell can downscale level 50, 160cp+ players too.
Inb4 someone says "The game can barely handle ability effects, it can't possibly handle a difficulty slider."

Give 3 options that each progressively make your character weaker, but offer a modest bonus to experience/gold/drop rate. Which, by the way, this buff to drop rate already exists on the PTS. If you play a 4 man dungeon with a player that has never done it before, you get a buff in your character sheet that increases drop rate by an unknown amount, but also your gold gain by like 5% I think. You can also look at eso plus and racial passives for all the % increase modifiers they've implemented.

[/list]

Can we stop acting like new players need to be coddled like newborn babies. It should be easy, but acting like they won't understand what to do in a mmo rpg rated 18+ is like saying a new player in Call of Duty won't understand how to press fire to shoot their weapon, it takes all of an hour to learn most of the basic mechanics of a game..

You don't need to destroy the new player experience to make it more enjoyable for veteran players. Some more meaningful mechanics on player quested bosses would go a long way in teaching them how the game works, as well as tuning down at least the Major/Minor buff scaling so that these random and fluxuating stats don't further confuse new players.

Hey dude,

Interesting post. I disagree with many of your assumptions.

1. Overland quests are not meant for new players, they’re meant for everyone. They’re just designed for a ‘new player’ level of difficulty (which we’ll all agree is not that difficult). As someone who uses food and buffs I can and do enjoy them. They are fun stories.

2. You’re assuming that combat challenge is the only form of enjoyment players get from the game. I don’t. I can enjoy the quests for what they are, cool stories that have meaning for my character and make me feel like a principal actor in the drama.

3. I suspect that given this is an MMORPG where you’re not the only player, there are probably many and varied good reasons why ZOS can’t actually “implement a difficulty slider”. And even if there weren’t and ZOS could, I suspect it would never be sophisticated enough to cater for the demands of players who want quests to be more challenging.

4. I love the way that as soon as players get their ‘more challenging’ quest content they admit that really it’s all about extra rewards because “it’s more difficult”. And justify that by saying “well no one’s going to do the harder version if they don’t get a better reward”.

5. Questing isn’t about teaching new players how to play the game. It is playing the game. And I don’t expect new players to have a lot of skills or abilities or gear when they’re finishing a questline on what might be their first week. If they’re anything like I was they will be likely finishing it with a mish mash of totally underlevelled white or green gear, no food or drink, no potions or buffs, limited skills and little game knowledge. And they need to win 99% of the time.

6. If you want to talk about how easy it is to learn, consider that CoD’s entire single player game element is a tutorial designed to get players into the online game. It’s long and goes into a lot of detail and new players are still no good at the game when they have finished it (because hey PvP is a blast eh). In contrast ESO’s latest tutorial involves you light attacking 3 times. And that’s about it. Next step dragons.

So forgive me if I’m a little disparaging when some long term player tells me how it’s a disgrace that he’s able to beat a questboss with a fully kitted out and buffed character and years of experience simply by light attacking a lot.

I don’t want questing to be more challenging for me if that’s going to [snip] up the game for lots of new players.

1. Yes, I wasn't trying to say overland was ONLY meant for new players, just that it's so easy in it's current itteration that new players are really the only people to see a challenge out of it and thats sad to me. I want to enjoy it the way I use to be able to enjoy it, at least as an option.

2. I'm not assuming anything. I can only speak for myself and I'm personally dissapointed in paying for dlc to receive a large amount of the content as story/quests/exploration that is designed very well, yet it's difficulty is exactly the same as what a new player experiences so I have trouble enjoying it. I'm not a new player. It's simply made way too easy for players who have been here longer than 1 dlc cycle. It's very unfortunate that there is no option to make it more difficult so I can enjoy it the way I want to without hurting anyone elses experience.

3. It doesn't need to be sophisticated and it already exists as I stated in my original comment, but in the reverse order. All enemies and gear is dynamically scaled to max level, in fact, beyond max level since low level players have their major/minor buffs/defbuffs and sets scaled higher than their actual intended design. If ZOS can buff players 1-50 dynamically in ONE Tamriel, then they sure as hell can nerf them at max level. There also wouldn't need to be a gradual decline, 3 options is all players need. Options would go a long way, you can't please everyone, but saying "catering to the demands of player would never be met" is not a reason to not implement a feature this game desperately needs.

4. There has to be some type of risk vs reward, it doesn't have to be big, but thats literally how every part of this game is designed whether you like it or not. It's a balance, but you should reward players for trying harder content, to entice them to try new things and play longer. What do you have against players earning 10% more gold or drop rate for nerfing their damage by 30% or taking 30% more damage. Why is this point for you so hard to swallow as if the only reason people want harder overland and quests is for more rewards, I haven't seen many people mention this at all?

5. Fair point, but it's still a good opportunity. You can add challenge without it being detrimental to the player with vet esque wipes, thats how normal RPGs work. You introduce harder content over time to give players time to get use to the mechanics. Light dungeon mechanics here and there aren't going to destroy the experience for people, but they teach people how important it is to block or bash, etc. They already have this on some enemies, but they seem to just forget about them on others.

6. Except, the single player campaign in COD has a difficulty slider.... so I'd agree with you if it was on Easy mode the whole way through with no option to change it (ESO), except it has those options available and it works very well. Some of the hardest gameplay I've ever done was playing through COD single player campaigns on the hardest difficulty where the NPC's practically had aimbotting, which was frankly harder than online players. You could say that was a tutorial just like you could say ESO's overland is, but at least COD offers you options to get more of a challenge.

"I don’t want questing to be more challenging for me if that’s going to [snip] up the game for lots of new players."

OP aside, my comment was talking about an option that could satisfy both parties, it's clear some people are happy with the current difficulty and some aren't. 1 thing is undeniable, once you understand the game and have any actual working set combination with food, etc. Overland becomes a cake walk and the quests become trivial for people who are unsatisfied with killing a major "threatening" boss in 10 seconds. Why can't we give players more options?

1. Overland is meant to be very easy, it's meant for everyone so the better you get the easier it becomes there's no real changing that.
3. The only way you'd be able to implement an overland difficulty slider is if ZOS changed the game to private instances overland.
4. No one is asking for the risk though. You're asking for the risk and also saying hey why isnt there better stuff too? You dont actually want harder content, you want more stuff. You shouldn't want/need more rewards or gold if all you want is more difficult content to enjoy.
5. Regular enemies have all those mechanics already so beyond the initial tutorial you should be playing the game, that's why the tutorial exists. You shouldn't still be learning basic game mechanics beyond level 10.
6. You're comparing CoD singple player and an MMO like they're the same thing. It's not going to ever work right with a difficulty slider

[edited to remove quote]

Indigogo · February 2020

If they started splitting players into different instances with different difficulties, new players would start never seeing higher level players, never get help. You'd widen the skills gap even further if you stopped seeing how vets play the game and learned from it. And also stagnate progression/population as numbers of people you could play with would drop significantly.
I found the learning curve huge when I first started. I straight up did not enjoy the experience. I managed to start back up with a friend and together we learned and got better.
If the game was any harder at that point, I would have binned it.
I'm still garbage but I now also melt through overland. For me that feels good, I earned those skills. I find my challenges elsewhere.

Nomadic_Atmoran · February 2020

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

4. No one is asking for the risk though. You're asking for the risk and also saying hey why isnt there better stuff too? You dont actually want harder content, you want more stuff. You shouldn't want/need more rewards or gold if all you want is more difficult content to enjoy.

At the end of the day this is at the heart of the argument for a difficulty slider. The "we want the game to be more challenging" argument is just icing to convince others that theres a legitimate reason behind this and not a selfish one. But if they actually only wanted a challenge they would not also be pushing for a reshuffling of the loot tables.

By creating a hardmode/veteran mode for overland these players would essentially be locking out newbie/casual players from a good chunk of the respectable loot table that allows them to step up into end-game content while they are researching their way to craftable gear/end-game gear. These hard mode players would then of course be able to grind out this gear and then sell it to newbies and casuals at a higher price point. All the while patting themselves on the back about how l33t they are.

mazeikeen · February 2020

This is a non-issue.

As everyone else has pointed out, you are not factoring in your 5 years of experience, 5 years of CP, crafted gear, buffs, etc and are only repeating how you only beat mannimarco with light attacks. Of course you did.

When I first started playing in 2017, I had no clue what I was doing. I was a stam/mag hybrid breton nightblade with no self heals, no CP, no rotation (unless you consider snipe spamming a rotation) and mismatched no-set gear. At times it felt like some of the main quest bosses were nearly impossible. Everything felt daunting. But not punishing.

Now I have more experience, good gear and max CP, and I blast through this low level content-- as it should be. There's challenging content in the game for experienced players. No need to make forced solo content more difficult for new and less experienced players.

FierceSam · February 2020

“I am not a new player”.

After all the rigmarole and argument, this is your fundamental issue. You are an experienced player who wants to do content that is specifically designed for inexperienced players.

You want it made harder so it’s a challenge to you. And, while they’re at it, you want better rewards too (cos, well you don’t expect me to do harder content just because I demanded it do you?).

You don’t seem to get that for the easiest content in the game to be even remotely challenging to you (or me), it would have to be so hard almost no new players would complete it. They’d just get annoyed and leave, or simply wouldn’t bother to show up and the main quests (and the game) would be as barren and empty as L16 Craglorn was.

Your notions that this would be either easy or cost-effective or successful are all incorrect.

You are not a new player.

Iccotak · February 2020

maybe (just maybe) ZOS should make a dungeon option for each major story Boss fight so then they don't waste big villains like Mannimarco, Molag Bal, Kaalgontiid etc.

FierceSam · February 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

maybe (just maybe) ZOS should make a dungeon option for each major story Boss fight so then they don't waste big villains like Mannimarco, Molag Bal, Kaalgontiid etc.

Hmmm nice idea.

And maybe they could release them as DLC content...

They did kind of do that with Molag Bal’s son in the Imperial City Sewers, and there’s no denying that both Clivia Tharn/Molag Kena and The Lord Warden are significantly more challenging opponents than Molag Bal himself.

I don’t know if that actually helps though. When I did my first run through of the main questline, these opponents were so far beyond me that I didn’t begin to fight them for years. By then they were so far removed from my main questing that they had no connection to it.

I think the fundamental issue will always be that main quest content in ESO isn’t like main quest content in a single player game. The central villains aren’t the biggest, badasses in the history of badassery (or even the history of Tamriel). They’re merely the central villains of the storyline. There are Guar in the basegame way more challenging, believe me.

In a single player game, the fight with Molag Bal would be the final battle in your epic 2 week play through of the entire game. He would be the hardest, most significant foe and you’d have won your greatest victory. And then it’s game over.

In ESO the defeat of Molag Bal, Kaalgrontiid etc is just the beginning. And you want everyone to be able to get there.

The Uninvited · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

Well I did my first run through before 1 Tamriel.

Then simply doing the wrong quest in the wrong zone could put you off the game for ages. You couldn’t beat the mini, mini quest boss because you weren’t the right level and you couldn’t level up until you’d finished the quest. Being beaten like that didn’t teach me anything about the game except that it was a real pain in the arse and not much fun at all.

Your belief seems to be that if only the baseline content, the very easiest content in the game, was just a little harder that will encourage players to become better. I profoundly disagree. Based on my experience it will just encourage fewer players to continue.

Players who want genuinely hard content can find it in spades in this game. Very, very few have finished it all. But the main questline is absolutely the last place you want to put any kind of roadblocks.

Thank you for this response. It seems that we indeed disagree on that point then, which is of course a matter of personal preference. Too bad you had to do another reply, as we just could have left it at this.

But I get your point, and I understand what your preference is. Mine is just different.

The Uninvited · February 2020

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

This is what we've been telling you though. The game hasn't been nerfed, Doshia is as hard then as she is now and just because you thought it was hard back then doesnt meant she was ever hard.

People still ask for advice, request crafted sets, etc. None of that has ever changed either. You're just never going to get the same feeling because this isnt your first character and adding increased HP or extra stuns isn't going to solve that.

Except, this is where you are wrong.

It has been nerfed (many of these early quests have been), most players know it and have been talking about it since. See for example this post from 2016: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242619/anyone-remember-old-school-eso/p1

Was it over-tuned and did it create a roadblock in it's original state? Yes, totally. Was it, in my opinion, nerfed too much? Yes.

But that's just the thing with ZOS, I guess. That nerf hammer gets swinged too hard sometimes.

It's the same thing when pvp-players get blamed for too heavy nerfs, when it really is ZOS that's to blame.

PVP crowd "this stuff is a bit OP, can you perhaps tone it down with like 25% maybe?"
ZOS: "Okay, let's nerf it by 60% and make it totally worthless"

Rave the Histborn · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

This is what we've been telling you though. The game hasn't been nerfed, Doshia is as hard then as she is now and just because you thought it was hard back then doesnt meant she was ever hard.

People still ask for advice, request crafted sets, etc. None of that has ever changed either. You're just never going to get the same feeling because this isnt your first character and adding increased HP or extra stuns isn't going to solve that.

Except, this is where you are wrong.

It has been nerfed (many of these early quests have been), most players know it and have been talking about it since. See for example this post from 2016: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242619/anyone-remember-old-school-eso/p1

Was it over-tuned and did it create a roadblock in it's original state? Yes, totally. Was it, in my opinion, nerfed too much? Yes.

But that's just the thing with ZOS, I guess. That nerf hammer gets swinged too hard sometimes.

It's the same thing when pvp-players get blamed for too heavy nerfs, when it really is ZOS that's to blame.

PVP crowd "this stuff is a bit OP, can you perhaps tone it down with like 25% maybe?"
ZOS: "Okay, let's nerf it by 60% and make it totally worthless"

You don't seem to get it. There is no way for what you're proposing to occur and you're linking to a forum post about nerfs from Jan 2016. I'm sorry but if you need to go that far back in the game for it to be "harder" then you'd asking for a lot of content to be scaled differently and for a lot of content to be removed. It's never going to happen because you're asking for things to be overtuned and act as a roadblock which isn't going to be fun for the majority of players and is not going to get more people into the game.

The Uninvited · February 2020

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

This is what we've been telling you though. The game hasn't been nerfed, Doshia is as hard then as she is now and just because you thought it was hard back then doesnt meant she was ever hard.

People still ask for advice, request crafted sets, etc. None of that has ever changed either. You're just never going to get the same feeling because this isnt your first character and adding increased HP or extra stuns isn't going to solve that.

Except, this is where you are wrong.

It has been nerfed (many of these early quests have been), most players know it and have been talking about it since. See for example this post from 2016: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242619/anyone-remember-old-school-eso/p1

Was it over-tuned and did it create a roadblock in it's original state? Yes, totally. Was it, in my opinion, nerfed too much? Yes.

But that's just the thing with ZOS, I guess. That nerf hammer gets swinged too hard sometimes.

It's the same thing when pvp-players get blamed for too heavy nerfs, when it really is ZOS that's to blame.

PVP crowd "this stuff is a bit OP, can you perhaps tone it down with like 25% maybe?"
ZOS: "Okay, let's nerf it by 60% and make it totally worthless"

You don't seem to get it. There is no way for what you're proposing to occur and you're linking to a forum post about nerfs from Jan 2016. I'm sorry but if you need to go that far back in the game for it to be "harder" then you'd asking for a lot of content to be scaled differently and for a lot of content to be removed. It's never going to happen because you're asking for things to be overtuned and act as a roadblock which isn't going to be fun for the majority of players and is not going to get more people into the game.

No, you don't seem to get it. You said it wasn't nerfed, but it was. You say I want it to be over-tuned and act as a roadblock, I don't. But you keep pushing that and making it about me instead of about the issue at hand, just because you want to be right.

For the last time, in my opinion, it was nerfed too much. Should it be brought back to it's original state? No. But there is a middle ground between too easy or too hard, you know that, right?

FierceSam · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

This is what we've been telling you though. The game hasn't been nerfed, Doshia is as hard then as she is now and just because you thought it was hard back then doesnt meant she was ever hard.

People still ask for advice, request crafted sets, etc. None of that has ever changed either. You're just never going to get the same feeling because this isnt your first character and adding increased HP or extra stuns isn't going to solve that.

Except, this is where you are wrong.

It has been nerfed (many of these early quests have been), most players know it and have been talking about it since. See for example this post from 2016: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242619/anyone-remember-old-school-eso/p1

Was it over-tuned and did it create a roadblock in it's original state? Yes, totally. Was it, in my opinion, nerfed too much? Yes.

But that's just the thing with ZOS, I guess. That nerf hammer gets swinged too hard sometimes.

It's the same thing when pvp-players get blamed for too heavy nerfs, when it really is ZOS that's to blame.

PVP crowd "this stuff is a bit OP, can you perhaps tone it down with like 25% maybe?"
ZOS: "Okay, let's nerf it by 60% and make it totally worthless"

You don't seem to get it. There is no way for what you're proposing to occur and you're linking to a forum post about nerfs from Jan 2016. I'm sorry but if you need to go that far back in the game for it to be "harder" then you'd asking for a lot of content to be scaled differently and for a lot of content to be removed. It's never going to happen because you're asking for things to be overtuned and act as a roadblock which isn't going to be fun for the majority of players and is not going to get more people into the game.

For the last time, in my opinion, it was nerfed too much. Should it be brought back to it's original state? No. But there is a middle ground between too easy or too hard, you know that, right?

Dude, have you seen new players? Do you remember being one? There is no middle ground where their “too hard” would be anything but “way too easy” to you.

You want the story bosses to be hard enough that people fail them. Not you, not me, but other, newer players. You want them to fail the easiest bit of content so you can feel a tiny bit challenged (with your full gearsets, food buffs, potions and years of playing experience). You think it will make the main quest somehow more meaningful for you. Well it won’t for them. And for every level of difficulty you add no matter how small that level is, fewer players will play through the content. And that’s bad.

I once spent hours getting through the Galchobhar fight back when it still had stone atronarchs. Hours. When we finally beat him it was amazingly satisfying. After that it was never a problem. Later ZOS removed the atronarchs because that fight was a total roadblock and stopped too many groups getting through, because not everyone wants to spend hours getting it right. Did I like the original challenge? Yes. Was it an amazing feeling beating it? Yes. Did ZOS do the right thing by removing the atronarchs? Yes.

Am I a bit sad and nostalgic about the old fight every time I go back? Yes. But more players are getting through it and going on to fight the Earthgore Amalgum and finishing the dungeon. More players are doing that content. And that’s a good thing.

After you’ve done something like that a story boss is never going to feel even remotely hard. And Galchobhar isn’t even a final boss.

TheFM · February 2020

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

As some people still don't seem to understand what I am trying to say here, maybe this explains it better.

The blue line is where the difficulty is at right now, the red line is where I would like it to be. Not unable to complete by a new player, not overwhelmingly challenging, just a tiny bit more engaging.

I think you're the only one misunderstanding. The story quest is part of overland it is as difficult as it should be and nothing about it has changed. The same goes for guild quests. They are meant to be accessible to everyone. You're mad that the final quest is easy and your comparison for it is quests that are designed to be so easy you can clear them without any attacks.

How on earth is making it the difficulty between overland and public dungeons making it inaccessible? That's absurd. It just goes from brain-dead easy to easy.

TheFM · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

As some people still don't seem to understand what I am trying to say here, maybe this explains it better.

The blue line is where the difficulty is at right now, the red line is where I would like it to be. Not unable to complete by a new player, not overwhelmingly challenging, just a tiny bit more engaging.

Hey dude,

I appreciate the effort you’re making. But with all of that, I have to say, you’re wrong.

And yes, if you made the main questline any more difficult a pile of new, inexperienced players would fail it.

If you made it so that you, as a proficient long term player, would even notice it was more difficult, you’d have swathes of them failing to make it and no one want that. And even then you wouldn’t find it that challenging.

Your fundamental concept, that because Molag Bal is the evil centrepiece of the main quest he should be the hardest boss in the game, is only true if you’re playing a single player game and the main questline is the only quest in town. ESO is not that game.

ESO is a game where the main questline is the easiest part of the game. It’s the gateway drug, the skooma that draws people in and then before you know it they’re doing side quests and delves and World Bosses and public dungeons and dungeons and DLC dungeons and trials. And all of those are more difficult and challenging because they come after the story.

Make the story harder and that doesn’t happen for a pile of people.

You’ve been there and had that first time experience. Let the other people have their go. And when they’ve done it and are all still excited by the game you can say to them “hey champ... come over here.. how about a real challenge?”

Why is it bad if people actually die here and there? That's how you grow as a player , you fail and you win sometimes.

TheFM · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

This is what we've been telling you though. The game hasn't been nerfed, Doshia is as hard then as she is now and just because you thought it was hard back then doesnt meant she was ever hard.

People still ask for advice, request crafted sets, etc. None of that has ever changed either. You're just never going to get the same feeling because this isnt your first character and adding increased HP or extra stuns isn't going to solve that.

Except, this is where you are wrong.

It has been nerfed (many of these early quests have been), most players know it and have been talking about it since. See for example this post from 2016: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242619/anyone-remember-old-school-eso/p1

Was it over-tuned and did it create a roadblock in it's original state? Yes, totally. Was it, in my opinion, nerfed too much? Yes.

But that's just the thing with ZOS, I guess. That nerf hammer gets swinged too hard sometimes.

It's the same thing when pvp-players get blamed for too heavy nerfs, when it really is ZOS that's to blame.

PVP crowd "this stuff is a bit OP, can you perhaps tone it down with like 25% maybe?"
ZOS: "Okay, let's nerf it by 60% and make it totally worthless"

You don't seem to get it. There is no way for what you're proposing to occur and you're linking to a forum post about nerfs from Jan 2016. I'm sorry but if you need to go that far back in the game for it to be "harder" then you'd asking for a lot of content to be scaled differently and for a lot of content to be removed. It's never going to happen because you're asking for things to be overtuned and act as a roadblock which isn't going to be fun for the majority of players and is not going to get more people into the game.

No, you don't seem to get it. You said it wasn't nerfed, but it was. You say I want it to be over-tuned and act as a roadblock, I don't. But you keep pushing that and making it about me instead of about the issue at hand, just because you want to be right.

For the last time, in my opinion, it was nerfed too much. Should it be brought back to it's original state? No. But there is a middle ground between too easy or too hard, you know that, right?

Just give up, the person you are arguing with doesn't seem to understand the word compromise.

FierceSam · February 2020

TheFM wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

As some people still don't seem to understand what I am trying to say here, maybe this explains it better.

The blue line is where the difficulty is at right now, the red line is where I would like it to be. Not unable to complete by a new player, not overwhelmingly challenging, just a tiny bit more engaging.

Hey dude,

I appreciate the effort you’re making. But with all of that, I have to say, you’re wrong.

And yes, if you made the main questline any more difficult a pile of new, inexperienced players would fail it.

If you made it so that you, as a proficient long term player, would even notice it was more difficult, you’d have swathes of them failing to make it and no one want that. And even then you wouldn’t find it that challenging.

Your fundamental concept, that because Molag Bal is the evil centrepiece of the main quest he should be the hardest boss in the game, is only true if you’re playing a single player game and the main questline is the only quest in town. ESO is not that game.

ESO is a game where the main questline is the easiest part of the game. It’s the gateway drug, the skooma that draws people in and then before you know it they’re doing side quests and delves and World Bosses and public dungeons and dungeons and DLC dungeons and trials. And all of those are more difficult and challenging because they come after the story.

Make the story harder and that doesn’t happen for a pile of people.

You’ve been there and had that first time experience. Let the other people have their go. And when they’ve done it and are all still excited by the game you can say to them “hey champ... come over here.. how about a real challenge?”

Why is it bad if people actually die here and there? That's how you grow as a player , you fail and you win sometimes.

That’s an interesting question. Because everyone dies. A lot.

But I disagree that that’s how you grow as a player. Dying is an indication of not getting better. And it’s a very poor inducement to get better, especially when the in-game teaching is as bad as ESO’s. People don’t suddenly learn to interrupt by being repeatedly killed, they learn to interrupt by being shown (often repeatedly) how and when to interrupt and then practicing it. Dying as a teaching tool is ineffective and disincentivising. It causes players to get frustrated and angry. We know because we’ve all been there.

And the main story quest is not where you want people to do their “learn by dying” thing. Save that for more difficult content, like delves, or dolmens, or public dungeons. The main story is where you want to suck players in. It’s not where you want them to get stuck. Make them really enjoy the game so once they’ve done it they’ll be keen on carrying on.

And that’s the real reason why story quest content is the easiest part of the game. It will take a new player a week or two of gaming, they’ll have fun, be sucked into the game and, hopefully, will stick around to develop further. Even with 4 chunks of new content, that’s barely 2 months of gaming. You have to make them want to do the other content too. And you don’t do that by constantly killing them.

Artemiisia · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I guess it was a miracle that a lot of us when we were new players before the serious dumb down of the game made it through content.

the memories

Artemiisia · February 2020

the thing about overland being so easy now, that nothing prepares you for dungeons and raids, you dont need to invest time in learning about skills, ccs, dont stand in red, mechanics, how the mobs react. You can pretty much go naked around doing light attack and beat everything overland now, thats just sad.

in the old days, bosses like Doshia was feared, overland trolls and gargoyle, people needed help killing these in order for progression through the quests from time to time.

I remember having trouble with manimaco, due to not knowing how to interupt when I first met him, and learned it on that fight, now this fight is boring and over in less then 10 secs, so all the mechanics behind the fight is gone, and new players wont have come out of it with learning anything.

The Uninvited · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@FierceSam and @Rave the Histborn As both of you still don't seem to understand what I mean (although I do appreciate @FierceSam giving a good argument for his views this time), maybe this will finally make you see it. If not, I'm out and I will call for a dev to close this thread as it apparently makes no sense to argue any longer.

This video is from the Doshia boss back in March 2014. Did I think it was too much back then? YES! Do I think it is too easy now and has been nerfed too much? HELL YEAH!!!!

Did we as new players make it through it back then? YES! Did we have to ask other players how to and did it make us better players and act more social, join guilds, ask for crafted gear, tips on how to complete and so on (as you would expect in an MMO)? HELL YEAH!!!

Was it completely impossible? No, but it made you at least grab a sense of how to play the game and be prepared for things like dungeons and pvp. You know... How a game should be in the early stages to prepare you for what's coming next. At least, that's my opinion. It's clearly not yours.

https://youtu.be/mwQY57gVAb8

This is what we've been telling you though. The game hasn't been nerfed, Doshia is as hard then as she is now and just because you thought it was hard back then doesnt meant she was ever hard.

People still ask for advice, request crafted sets, etc. None of that has ever changed either. You're just never going to get the same feeling because this isnt your first character and adding increased HP or extra stuns isn't going to solve that.

Except, this is where you are wrong.

It has been nerfed (many of these early quests have been), most players know it and have been talking about it since. See for example this post from 2016: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242619/anyone-remember-old-school-eso/p1

Was it over-tuned and did it create a roadblock in it's original state? Yes, totally. Was it, in my opinion, nerfed too much? Yes.

But that's just the thing with ZOS, I guess. That nerf hammer gets swinged too hard sometimes.

It's the same thing when pvp-players get blamed for too heavy nerfs, when it really is ZOS that's to blame.

PVP crowd "this stuff is a bit OP, can you perhaps tone it down with like 25% maybe?"
ZOS: "Okay, let's nerf it by 60% and make it totally worthless"

You don't seem to get it. There is no way for what you're proposing to occur and you're linking to a forum post about nerfs from Jan 2016. I'm sorry but if you need to go that far back in the game for it to be "harder" then you'd asking for a lot of content to be scaled differently and for a lot of content to be removed. It's never going to happen because you're asking for things to be overtuned and act as a roadblock which isn't going to be fun for the majority of players and is not going to get more people into the game.

For the last time, in my opinion, it was nerfed too much. Should it be brought back to it's original state? No. But there is a middle ground between too easy or too hard, you know that, right?

Dude, have you seen new players? Do you remember being one? There is no middle ground where their “too hard” would be anything but “way too easy” to you.

You want the story bosses to be hard enough that people fail them. Not you, not me, but other, newer players. You want them to fail the easiest bit of content so you can feel a tiny bit challenged (with your full gearsets, food buffs, potions and years of playing experience). You think it will make the main quest somehow more meaningful for you. Well it won’t for them. And for every level of difficulty you add no matter how small that level is, fewer players will play through the content. And that’s bad.

I once spent hours getting through the Galchobhar fight back when it still had stone atronarchs. Hours. When we finally beat him it was amazingly satisfying. After that it was never a problem. Later ZOS removed the atronarchs because that fight was a total roadblock and stopped too many groups getting through, because not everyone wants to spend hours getting it right. Did I like the original challenge? Yes. Was it an amazing feeling beating it? Yes. Did ZOS do the right thing by removing the atronarchs? Yes.

Am I a bit sad and nostalgic about the old fight every time I go back? Yes. But more players are getting through it and going on to fight the Earthgore Amalgum and finishing the dungeon. More players are doing that content. And that’s a good thing.

After you’ve done something like that a story boss is never going to feel even remotely hard. And Galchobhar isn’t even a final boss.

I already said that I see your point of view. However, it's funny that you mention a fight in a DLC dungeon as I thought we agreed on that's where the challenging content and occasional roadblocks should occur.

Was the Galchobhar fight too much and did ZOS make the right choice? Probably. But this again brings me to my point.

I remember my first time in veteran City of Ash 2, when veteran 14 was the highest level. Took hours as well and yes it was satisfying when we finally made it.

Is it a cakewalk for me now? Yes, and I can surely see the difference my 5 years of experience, CP, meta gear and food make there. Will it still be challenging to new players? Yes. Will it still be engaging content to me? Yes, because no matter my experience/CP/gear/food, I wouldn't be able to complete it with just standing still and light attacking.

Artemiisia wrote: »

the thing about overland being so easy now, that nothing prepares you for dungeons and raids, you dont need to invest time in learning about skills, ccs, dont stand in red, mechanics, how the mobs react. You can pretty much go naked around doing light attack and beat everything overland now, thats just sad.

in the old days, bosses like Doshia was feared, overland trolls and gargoyle, people needed help killing these in order for progression through the quests from time to time.

I remember having trouble with manimaco, due to not knowing how to interupt when I first met him, and learned it on that fight, now this fight is boring and over in less then 10 secs, so all the mechanics behind the fight is gone, and new players wont have come out of it with learning anything.

Exactly.