logarifmik wrote: »

Pardon my language, but this reversed vampirism mechanic they want to implement in terms of TES sounds like a complete ***, which either requires a really good explanation or must be discarded. For now it's quite clear from the lore, that vampirism is a form of daedric curse, a sick joke of Molag Bal himself, which forces vampires to feed on those who they was before in order to keep themselves sane. It's a brilliant non-conventional fantasy trope, really, and personally I'd like to see it as a part of the ESO.

And I like OP idea. Beasts shouldn't walk among common folk without being noticed and punished for whom they are. Maybe devs even should introduce a new stage, when a hungry vampire forcibly take this new vampire lord form and should feed to become a humanoid again. Also, some sort of cosmetic disguise for bloodsuckers would be a nice touch too.

The games strain that were given comes from Lamae the First vampire who has you basically desecrate a shrine of Molag Bal Destroy it and desecrate a shrine of Arkay and destroy it. Her goal is to turn that sick joke into something that can beat him and destory him. So I would say Lamae technically succeeded if you defeated him as a vampire because that sick joke ended up really biting him in the butt so to speak. So the Joke ends up back on him basically. Which is totally a form of ironic justice if the vestige became a vampire just to use it against Molag Bal himself and show how they really really despise him.
Given Lamae gets more powerful with each member of her bloodline according to the one npc. She could potentially alter it to work the other way around. Because of that connection to her children that makes her herself stronger. So its a two way thing basically if you want to think of it that way. Its Lamae's whims not Molags that Define the blood line we are given. That is why we are able to use it against him.

Noxavian wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Pardon my language, but this reversed vampirism mechanic they want to implement in terms of TES sounds like a complete ***, which either requires a really good explanation or must be discarded. For now it's quite clear from the lore, that vampirism is a form of daedric curse, a sick joke of Molag Bal himself, which forces vampires to feed on those who they was before in order to keep themselves sane. It's a brilliant non-conventional fantasy trope, really, and personally I'd like to see it as a part of the ESO.

And I like OP idea. Beasts shouldn't walk among common folk without being noticed and punished for whom they are. Maybe devs even should introduce a new stage, when a hungry vampire forcibly take this new vampire lord form and should feed to become a humanoid again. Also, some sort of cosmetic disguise for bloodsuckers would be a nice touch too.

Man, Im sorry to tell you but they aren't going to discard their idea because some lore-nerds on the forums dislike it when the majority of people are all down for it.

Sorry, but I think I'll take the guy's opinion who gets paid to know lore and create lore-friendly things for the game over some randos on the forum that think they apparently know better.

Dude, I'd like to see some proofs of this majority you are constantly talking about. Did you made a survey or something? Where are the statistics? None? Well...

Besides, majority decides nothing, only master do, as you yourself said. Loremaster in our case. Have you ever played pen and paper RPGs of any kind? Same thing. Majority opinion is irrelevant, but previously established rules are not.

If loremaster wants to introduce something opposite to what was previously established, we, so-called lore-nerds, want to see official in-deep explanation why it should be this way from the point of lore.

That's not some kind of conservative whining, but a request for self-consistent story. That's all.

logarifmik wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Pardon my language, but this reversed vampirism mechanic they want to implement in terms of TES sounds like a complete ***, which either requires a really good explanation or must be discarded. For now it's quite clear from the lore, that vampirism is a form of daedric curse, a sick joke of Molag Bal himself, which forces vampires to feed on those who they was before in order to keep themselves sane. It's a brilliant non-conventional fantasy trope, really, and personally I'd like to see it as a part of the ESO.

And I like OP idea. Beasts shouldn't walk among common folk without being noticed and punished for whom they are. Maybe devs even should introduce a new stage, when a hungry vampire forcibly take this new vampire lord form and should feed to become a humanoid again. Also, some sort of cosmetic disguise for bloodsuckers would be a nice touch too.

Man, Im sorry to tell you but they aren't going to discard their idea because some lore-nerds on the forums dislike it when the majority of people are all down for it.

Sorry, but I think I'll take the guy's opinion who gets paid to know lore and create lore-friendly things for the game over some randos on the forum that think they apparently know better.

Dude, I'd like to see some proofs of this majority you are constantly talking about. Did you made a survey or something? Where are the statistics? None? Well...

Besides, majority decides nothing, only master do, as you yourself said. Loremaster in our case. Have you ever played pen and paper RPGs of any kind? Same thing. Majority opinion is irrelevant, but previously established rules are not.

If loremaster wants to introduce something opposite to what was previously established, we, so-called lore-nerds, want to see official in-deep explanation why it should be this way from the point of lore.

That's not some kind of conservative whining, but a request for self-consistent story. That's all.

What he said.

Also, a big reason why continuity and consistency are so important to "lore-nerds" is because a lot of us are roleplayers too. Even if we don't actively roleplay, some of us make up their own (back)stories for their characters. If something about the lore is being retconned, a big part of previously written fiction on that topic is getting invalidated.

That's also something to consider for the crowd telling us that Lawrence said "everyone can make the lore" and that this means lore can be however we want. If the loremaster contradicts things that have been then all the lore based on how it used to be suddenly becomes invalidated along with the effort that went into creating it, which is the exact opposite of what Lawrence told us how things should be.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

She could potentially alter it to work the other way around. Because of that connection to her children that makes her herself stronger. So its a two way thing basically if you want to think of it that way. Its Lamae's whims not Molags that Define the blood line we are given. That is why we are able to use it against him.

You don't know this, nor do anyone else.

The say that her children makes her stronger, are far more likely to come from the influence itself, rather than an actual marginal increase in her power, but her broods.

I also disagree with your assessment that Lamae can choose and design her bloodline as she sees it fitting, since then she wouldn't even have vampirism become vampirism, for she hates the very affliction that Molag Bal cursed her with, the one that made Arkay abandon her.

I find it to be far more likely that she is doing precisely what she is doing, in order to fuel her own vengeful plot towards both Molag Bal and Arkay, to gain any remote sense of justice for the actions that were forced upon her.

The addition of the Vampire Lord only further supports this, for why would Lamae Bal allow her children to become the very monstrous visage of Molag Bal himself. It doesn't make sense for her character to allow this, if she could design her bloodline as she wished it.

Plus, in the end, every vampire upon death is condemned to Coldharbour, and belongs to Molag Bal. Lamae isn't delusional, she knows this, so she wants herself and her brood to stay alive to spite that very idea. By all accounts of lore we have, there is no support to the claim that Molag Bal doesn't have a finger in play, nor the ultimate designer of the vampiric diseases.

Come on, he is a Daedric Prince, the very inventor of Vampirism in Elder Scrolls.

Well Molag Bal can be easily countered because of the sphere of his arch rival. Hircine's Hunting thing is far harder to beat. Plus Hircine likely couldn't take the souls of werewolves, if he didn't have like a wolf soul parasite attached to the afflicted's soul reason why I know this I played the Skyrim questline and Kodak's journel mentions seeing the other leaders going to Sovengarde in a dream only to be pulled from there to the hunting grounds by a great wolf spirit the very thing we have to pull out of Kodak himself. Otherwise the lore says the daedra can trick mortal souls into their realms but that is all they can do unless they served them in life or forced them to summit which MMolag had us do so he could claim that one guys soul in Skyrim.

Also play Azuras Quest in Oblivion where you had to free her vampiric followers that got turned and she tells you they are free. Since she cares enough about them I doubt she lied about that. Lycanthropy is like a soul gem and the wolf soul attached is the soul trap. Vampirism is just a soul gem without the soul trap. If Molag bal was to claim their souls he would have to have a soul trap mechanism and since they have far more free will then lycanthropes. Its shown they don't have that.
Maybe in some genres vampirism dooms the soul while killing the lycanthrope with a silver bullet sets them free. In Elder scrolls its works the opposite where Lycanthropes are doomed and Vampires are free once slain. Vampire is slain they are free at last. Lycanthropy they are not free and are grabbed by Hircine and taken to the Hunting grounds. That is how I personally see it.

Also don't forget that Alchemy vampirism is a thing Summerset quest makes alchemical vampirism canon. Plus the various strains altered by other princes where Lycanthropy is shown not to be altered by other princes. As if Molag Bal allowed them to have their way with it while Hircine is very protective of his creations. I doubt Molag bal cares for them unless they are interesting like that one dunmer vampire in Vvardenfell which Molag Bal eventually cured him. But in Morrowind its shown that Molag Bal himself couldn't cure his own condition had to go to another prince for that. If he couldn't cure it that means he doesn't have the type of power over it like people think he does. All he can do is create new strains through use of his own blood.

Also Molag Bal couldn't stop you from attacking him as a vampire and destroying him. Which I think Hircine would be able to do with the wolf sprite Soul Parasite thing attached to them as otherwise I doubt the werewolf lord could have been able to force other lycanthropes under her control since she did basically have the blood of Hircine which allowed her to control that aspect of their souls. Also that one quest in the Daggerfall covenant where a werewolf gal was able to use magic to control the population of the one village possibly using the wolf soul parasite to do it. So Mortals can manipulate it if they know about it. Vampires are not shown to have that vulnerability.

Just because Hircine is able to take werewolf souls does not mean Molag Bal can take vampire souls. As clearly Hircine has created a mechanism to do it with and that is the wolf spirit. Without it Hircine couldn't take their souls unless they willingly went to his realm upon death. Hes created the perfect means of collecting souls. Just because its a thing with Hircine does not make it a thing with Molag Bal who likely is jealous of it.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Kodlak's_Journal
In my dream, I see the line of Harbingers start with Ysgramor. Each of them ascends to Sovngarde, until we come to Terrfyg, who first turned us to the ways of the beast. He tries to enter Sovngarde, but before he can even approach Tsun, he is set upon by a great wolf, who pulls him into the Hunting Grounds, where Hircine laughs with welcoming arms.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Wolf_Spirit
A Wolf Spirit is a creature connected to werewolves. The Wolf Spirit is presumed to be the source of the power and the curse that werewolves bear. Curing lycanthropy requires throwing the head of a Glenmoril Witch into the Flame of the Harbinger in Ysgramor's Tomb in the presence of the werewolf to be cured. Doing this releases the Wolf Spirit from the werewolf's soul, which must be defeated in order to cleanse the person.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

She could potentially alter it to work the other way around. Because of that connection to her children that makes her herself stronger. So its a two way thing basically if you want to think of it that way. Its Lamae's whims not Molags that Define the blood line we are given. That is why we are able to use it against him.

You don't know this, nor do anyone else.

The say that her children makes her stronger, are far more likely to come from the influence itself, rather than an actual marginal increase in her power, but her broods.

I also disagree with your assessment that Lamae can choose and design her bloodline as she sees it fitting, since then she wouldn't even have vampirism become vampirism, for she hates the very affliction that Molag Bal cursed her with, the one that made Arkay abandon her.

I find it to be far more likely that she is doing precisely what she is doing, in order to fuel her own vengeful plot towards both Molag Bal and Arkay, to gain any remote sense of justice for the actions that were forced upon her.

The addition of the Vampire Lord only further supports this, for why would Lamae Bal allow her children to become the very monstrous visage of Molag Bal himself. It doesn't make sense for her character to allow this, if she could design her bloodline as she wished it.

Plus, in the end, every vampire upon death is condemned to Coldharbour, and belongs to Molag Bal. Lamae isn't delusional, she knows this, so she wants herself and her brood to stay alive to spite that very idea. By all accounts of lore we have, there is no support to the claim that Molag Bal doesn't have a finger in play, nor the ultimate designer of the vampiric diseases.

Come on, he is a Daedric Prince, the very inventor of Vampirism in Elder Scrolls.

They also claimed to be redoing the Vampire quest, it may not even involve Lamae Bal anymore

We may be becoming Volkihar Vampires instead of whatever her clan was.

No we are not becoming Volkihar Vampires we are still getting it from Lamae. Basically I think they are going to rework the vampire tutorial to explain the mechanics and rework Lamaes Dialog. That aspect Isn't going to change. Our Vampire lord transformation is also going to be called blood scion. Which will come from Lamae herself they explained that her being the first vampire she can basically uh accounts for any type of vampiric abiltiy Might have to rewatch the livestream but Lamae will be the reason why we will be able to use the Bloodscion form. Which will be related but not the same as The Volkihar form. So no they are not cutting Lamae out and we are not becoming Volkihar vampires. We won't see much of the Volikhar in the new greymoor chapter either. They have said that as well.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

She could potentially alter it to work the other way around. Because of that connection to her children that makes her herself stronger. So its a two way thing basically if you want to think of it that way. Its Lamae's whims not Molags that Define the blood line we are given. That is why we are able to use it against him.

You don't know this, nor do anyone else.

The say that her children makes her stronger, are far more likely to come from the influence itself, rather than an actual marginal increase in her power, but her broods.

I also disagree with your assessment that Lamae can choose and design her bloodline as she sees it fitting, since then she wouldn't even have vampirism become vampirism, for she hates the very affliction that Molag Bal cursed her with, the one that made Arkay abandon her.

I find it to be far more likely that she is doing precisely what she is doing, in order to fuel her own vengeful plot towards both Molag Bal and Arkay, to gain any remote sense of justice for the actions that were forced upon her.

The addition of the Vampire Lord only further supports this, for why would Lamae Bal allow her children to become the very monstrous visage of Molag Bal himself. It doesn't make sense for her character to allow this, if she could design her bloodline as she wished it.

Plus, in the end, every vampire upon death is condemned to Coldharbour, and belongs to Molag Bal. Lamae isn't delusional, she knows this, so she wants herself and her brood to stay alive to spite that very idea. By all accounts of lore we have, there is no support to the claim that Molag Bal doesn't have a finger in play, nor the ultimate designer of the vampiric diseases.

Come on, he is a Daedric Prince, the very inventor of Vampirism in Elder Scrolls.

They also claimed to be redoing the Vampire quest, it may not even involve Lamae Bal anymore

We may be becoming Volkihar Vampires instead of whatever her clan was.

It does still involve Lamae I think. I am not 100% sure anymore but I think in his most recent interview Rich said that they changed the vampire tutorial and Lamae explains how feeding works or something. Also, not using Lamae would be selling themselves short. She is a character of significance and taking just any lesser vampire for this instead just wouldn't do.

Also, we will definitely not become Volkihar vampires as that would be even worse in terms of messing with the canon. The Volkihar's special vampiric power is being able to phase through ice as if it was air, not becoming stronger when feeding.

Flubbles wrote: »

While we are at it. Can Vampires have claws (for non Khajiit and Argonian races) and fangs please?
https://imgur.com/a/vDQ93ae

Yes please!
I think the claws will actually be used in the one of the new feeding animation. At least that's what it sounded like when they talked about it during the reveal. The fangs and claws could also have different degrees of visibility depending on the stage, but that might be too much to ask. Unfortunately the latest statement was that they are not changing anything about the vampire's appearance, which is a shame, because we can do better.

And to stay on topic, if your body changes when you progress through the stages, it makes more sense to adapt towards being able to draw blood more easily the longer you've gone without blood than it does to have your body revert back to more human features, which makes drawing blood only harder for yourself.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

While we are at it. Can Vampires have claws (for non Khajiit and Argonian races) and fangs please?
https://imgur.com/a/vDQ93ae

Yes please!
I think the claws will actually be used in the one of the new feeding animation. At least that's what it sounded like when they talked about it during the reveal. The fangs and claws could also have different degrees of visibility depending on the stage, but that might be too much to ask. Unfortunately the latest statement was that they are not changing anything about the vampire's appearance, which is a shame, because we can do better.

And to stay on topic, if your body changes when you progress through the stages, it makes more sense to adapt towards being able to draw blood more easily the longer you've gone without blood than it does to have your body revert back to more human features, which makes drawing blood only harder for yourself.

I do support the idea giving Vampires claws.

Claws like Barnabas Collins from the Dark Shadow Movie. They would look something like from the Movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJZQ7On07YM

That would be epic if they could do that, Hopfully not only adding fangs (I really hope they will be getting fangs) but also the claws to and they could make them look more like the Dark Shadows Movie vampire look. Since the paleness seems to be more like the vampires in the movie anyways and It would look nice and also hopefully they are coming up with a gentlemen with a cane personality and that would go great with it.

Flubbles wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Vampires in Elder scrolls can eat normal food and drink. Though they really don't benefit from really being sated from it. But can still eat it. Wouldn't make sense that they couldn't gain from the food buffs and passives. Also why would they be able to eat raw meat but can't enjoy cooked food?

Huh didn't know that... I thought it would be a cool detail to have rather than them eating like normal cooked food and gaining benefits instead gain those benefits by feeding on people. As for raw food I thought it would be a better option considering they don't gain any benefits from eating cooked food.

Well they could move the food passive to the vampire skill tree. As the vampire's "food" is blood. Though for balance reason it would be better to keep the current way. Purely for gameplay reasons.

As for OP. I agree, that they should keep the TES lore style. Vampires become more powerful as they get thirsty, but lose their humanity in return. They could add extra effect, and maybe extra stage.

Stage 4: guards attacks you on sight, and most NPC will send you away, but mist form grants invisibility.

Stage 5: you no longer yourself. The next time you nearby to any humanoid NPC you jump to feed on them, and gain bounty, if target is like that. This feeding kills any killable normal NPC.

Kombinator wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Vampires in Elder scrolls can eat normal food and drink. Though they really don't benefit from really being sated from it. But can still eat it. Wouldn't make sense that they couldn't gain from the food buffs and passives. Also why would they be able to eat raw meat but can't enjoy cooked food?

Huh didn't know that... I thought it would be a cool detail to have rather than them eating like normal cooked food and gaining benefits instead gain those benefits by feeding on people. As for raw food I thought it would be a better option considering they don't gain any benefits from eating cooked food.

Well they could move the food passive to the vampire skill tree. As the vampire's "food" is blood. Though for balance reason it would be better to keep the current way. Purely for gameplay reasons.

As for OP. I agree, that they should keep the TES lore style. Vampires become more powerful as they get thirsty, but lose their humanity in return. They could add extra effect, and maybe extra stage.

Stage 4: guards attacks you on sight, and most NPC will send you away, but mist form grants invisibility.

Stage 5: you no longer yourself. The next time you nearby to any humanoid NPC you jump to feed on them, and gain bounty, if target is like that. This feeding kills any killable normal NPC.

That stage 5 is an interesting suggestion. Kind of a forced reset.
In terms of nomenclature it probably shouldn't be called stage 5 though because the vampirism disease is described in 4 stages. So it would probably be 6 hours into stage 4 that you can't control your hunger anymore and attack the next killable humanoid npc no matter where that is.

I do think that this wouldn't feel all that great in terms of player agency though, just because of the loss of control and the forced removal of your stage 4 if you are in it too long. If we just have the guards come after you, then everyone can decide for themselves how long they want to stay in stage 4 before feeding and being allowed back into civilization rather than giving you only 6 hours. Even if this would be the most accurate portrayal of vampirism in TES.

Frankly once it's announced, that's when the time for bargaining and suggestions is over. It's done until the next overhaul.

Get rid of feeding requirements, they are annoying. The only reason most people are vampires is for the sustain passive traits. The last thing anyone wants to have to deal with is worrying about level because they haven't fed in a while.

If zos moved the sustain passive, or even outright fixed buffed sustain, most people would drop vamp and the only ones left would be the erp weirdos.