Suggestion for the vampire rework - an alternative to the feeding reversal

srfrogg23

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

This is a terribly obnoxious idea... The justice system is already annoying enough. I don't want them to shoehorn more crap into, thanks. Vampirism is just a stat stick in ESO because the downsides of the previous games would be prohibitively annoying in this game, so I can see why they didn't go that route.

Reversing the way the feeding mechanic works isn't something that I really want to see happen, but it's better than this nonsense.

Ratzkifal

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

This is a terribly obnoxious idea... The justice system is already annoying enough. I don't want them to shoehorn more crap into, thanks. Vampirism is just a stat stick in ESO because the downsides of the previous games would be prohibitively annoying in this game, so I can see why they didn't go that route.

Reversing the way the feeding mechanic works isn't something that I really want to see happen, but it's better than this nonsense.

@srfrogg23 And what is so nonsensical about it? Vampire skills are going to be a crime anyway, so you will have to deal with the justice system whether you like it or not. The only thing my proposal would change is that you can't sleep on your vampirism the way people do it on live, just as the Devs intended when they made their changes. I merely present an alternative that reaches their goals while also staying true how vampirism has always worked.

Noxavian

Ratzkifal wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

This is a terribly obnoxious idea... The justice system is already annoying enough. I don't want them to shoehorn more crap into, thanks. Vampirism is just a stat stick in ESO because the downsides of the previous games would be prohibitively annoying in this game, so I can see why they didn't go that route.

Reversing the way the feeding mechanic works isn't something that I really want to see happen, but it's better than this nonsense.

@srfrogg23 And what is so nonsensical about it? Vampire skills are going to be a crime anyway, so you will have to deal with the justice system whether you like it or not. The only thing my proposal would change is that you can't sleep on your vampirism the way people do it on live, just as the Devs intended when they made their changes. I merely present an alternative that reaches their goals while also staying true how vampirism has always worked.

The thing is, the way vampirism has always worked is garbage. This is an MMO, things get updated. Also tbe bloodline used in the MMO was specifically created for the MMO, so therefore changes can happen. I genuinely do not see the logic in being this caught up in a mechanic that is going to be changing for the better.

XomRhoK

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

Don't read all the coments, but my problem with curent system and Oblivion/Skyrim systems that in "field", when you do questing and fights you don't feel that you playing a vampire, especially if you don't use vampiric skills. You have absolutly no gameplay reasons to feed in the "field", even if you want to feed there for roleplay reasons you will only hurt you build or look. So what you suggest will lead to drinking Bloody Mara potion before entering town or sneak to nearest house to feed, thats all, all vampiric gameplay.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

There is a quest in elsweyr were you help a vampire defeat her old clan something she cant do because she didnt feed and they did

Ratzkifal

XomRhoK wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

Don't read all the coments, but my problem with curent system and Oblivion/Skyrim systems that in "field", when you do questing and fights you don't feel that you playing a vampire, especially if you don't use vampiric skills. You have absolutly no gameplay reasons to feed in the "field", even if you want to feed there for roleplay reasons you will only hurt you build or look. So what you suggest will lead to drinking Bloody Mara potion before entering town or sneak to nearest house to feed, thats all, all vampiric gameplay.

Okay, but ZOS' own changes won't change that either. What they suggest will lead to people drinking Bloody Mara to keep their vampirism up instead of down and the Disasterous Bloody Mara will be what the old Bloody Mara was.
At least then people will actually bother to get these, but that's going to happen whether you go with my idea or theirs.
However my idea keeps consistent with how it used to work and how it works in Oblivion and Skyrim (as well as the lore).

Ratzkifal

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

There is a quest in elsweyr were you help a vampire defeat her old clan something she cant do because she didnt feed and they did

@Dark_Lord_Kuro I am aware of that, yes. This is the only case where this has happened.
I like to dismiss this particular instance because this is already the new loremaster at work. It's strange to me to use Leamon's words to prove Leamon's claims...
Unless we actually get some new lore regarding this that satisfies the old lore (no mention of that anywhere), or people can find me some pre-Leamon lore on the matter I remain unconvinced.

There are two more cases people like to point to. One where a woman put herself in a coma to prevent herself from feeding and one where a noble gets shut into his room and then proceeds to go crazy (which exactly what happens when vampires don't feed), but there is no sign of him being weaker as he promptly starts attacking you when you enter his room.

ShadowHvo

I agree whole heartily with the OP, and I think that this would be a brilliant way to make elder scrolls Vampirism remain unique, while also making it far more engaging.

In fact, thank you for making a detailed and concise post. That is a much better way to approach Zenimax, than my own initial emotional thread.

You've hit the nail on the head. It is only a shame that so many individuals still don't seem to realize what makes Elder Scrolls vampires unique, and simply wish to forfeit all of that in favor of their power fantasy from other universes, such as Underworld or World of Darkness.

I honestly find it difficult to believe that people actually oppose this idea, yet somehow, such individuals believe that vampirism will be far more active than it is right now, when it very likely won't. Feed to get stronk. OK. Cool. I guess. Because you know, pressing X for Blade of Woe is very engaging gameplay. Clearly.

But alas, I digress. Wonderful post @Ratzkifal , I agree whole heartily with you. I hope that the developers listens and takes note, so that we can reach this middle ground where they satisfy everyone, while still maintaining the integrity that made elder scrolls vampirism so unique and awesome.

EDIT:

Thank you dearly for the confirmation that the vampire skin won't change! I'm very happy to at least hear that my characters ghastly identity and appearance won't be utterly ruined. Stage 4 skin is the most critical and important aspect of my character, so that pleases me.

Noxavian

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I agree whole heartily with the OP, and I think that this would be a brilliant way to make elder scrolls Vampirism remain unique, while also making it far more engaging.

In fact, thank you for making a detailed and concise post. That is a much better way to approach Zenimax, than my own initial emotional thread.

You've hit the nail on the head. It is only a shame that so many individuals still don't seem to realize what makes Elder Scrolls vampires unique, and simply wish to forfeit all of that in favor of their power fantasy from other universes, such as Underworld or World of Darkness.

I honestly find it difficult to believe that people actually oppose this idea, yet somehow, such individuals believe that vampirism will be far more active than it is right now, when it very likely won't. Feed to get stronk. OK. Cool. I guess. Because you know, pressing X for Blade of Woe is very engaging gameplay. Clearly.

But alas, I digress. Wonderful post @Ratzkifal , I agree whole heartily with you. I hope that the developers listens and takes note, so that we can reach this middle ground where they satisfy everyone, while still maintaining the integrity that made elder scrolls vampirism so unique and awesome.

EDIT:

Thank you dearly for the confirmation that the vampire skin won't change! I'm very happy to at least hear that my characters ghastly identity and appearance won't be utterly ruined. Stage 4 skin is the most critical and important aspect of my character, so that pleases me.

The developers aren't going to listen to 2 people that dislike the changes. Unless more people start making a fuss.


As mentioned, literally you two are the only ones that have discussed this. Why would the devs take note with what you two say over everyone who is down for the changes?

susmitds

I am sorry but just no. Last thing I want, is get chased by guards without even using a single Vampire skill. Stamblade vampire here, I use it purely for the passives.

ShadowHvo

Noxavian wrote: »

As mentioned, literally you two are the only ones that have discussed this. Why would the devs take note with what you two say over everyone who is down for the changes?

You're literally wrong, but its alright.

I'm not going to stop fighting for what I believe is right, simply to please a crowd who wants a modern vampire fiction, power fantasy. I play Elder Scrolls to have an Elder Scrolls experience. If you blame me for fighting for that, then I'm lost for words.

Katahdin

susmitds wrote: »

I am sorry but just no. Last thing I want, is get chased by guards without even using a single Vampire skill. Stamblade vampire here, I use it purely for the passives.

I think the bolded part is one of the reasons ZoS is changing it.
If you want to maintain those passives, you're now going to have to do something to do that, instead of just getting bit and doing nothing else. If they invoke the justice system then they are also putting consequences on being a vampire.

XomRhoK

Ratzkifal wrote: »

XomRhoK wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Quick intro to the issue of this thread
Rich Lambert just confirmed what some of us feared after the reveal in Las Vegas. Currently they are planning to reverse the way feeding works, so that feeding increases your vampire stage instead of lowering it and raising your power in the process. This is in conflict with the way vampirism has been handled in previous games (Skyrim and Oblivion) and is described through lore. Previously it has always been Vampires gaining strength from their affliction but becoming increasingly monsterous in turn, to the point were guards would attack you in Skyrim and Oblivion (but not yet in ESO) if you haven't fed in a while to regain some of your humanity.

Here is a solution to keep the good things about the new but also stay consistent with the other entries of the franchise
Instead of flipping the hunger mechanic on its head and getting into conflict with Oblivion and Skyrim's vampire system, let towns be considered Trespassing Areas for Stage 4 vampires.
Transformed Werewolfs will be and Bonetyrants already are being attacked by guards on sight, and this should be expanded onto stage 4 vampires.
That way feeding will still be something people would want to do routinely so that they could actually follow their business in towns, just like it's been in Skyrim and Oblivion.
Since using vampire active skills currently raises the vampire stage, it would continue to do as it currently does on live, so that would be taken care off too and nobody needs to miss out on their max boni for their next trial or dungeon.
It also makes sense as the new vampire skills will count as a crime, the same way Necromancer abilities do, so it makes sense that your monsterous abilities would also turn you more into the monster of the night that you are.

Source for the confirmation
Excuse the badly clipped clip. He answered my question about what new insentives there are to feed in the new system.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeTastyOysterPraiseIt

Tagging @ShadowHvo

Don't read all the coments, but my problem with curent system and Oblivion/Skyrim systems that in "field", when you do questing and fights you don't feel that you playing a vampire, especially if you don't use vampiric skills. You have absolutly no gameplay reasons to feed in the "field", even if you want to feed there for roleplay reasons you will only hurt you build or look. So what you suggest will lead to drinking Bloody Mara potion before entering town or sneak to nearest house to feed, thats all, all vampiric gameplay.

Okay, but ZOS' own changes won't change that either. What they suggest will lead to people drinking Bloody Mara to keep their vampirism up instead of down and the Disasterous Bloody Mara will be what the old Bloody Mara was.
At least then people will actually bother to get these, but that's going to happen whether you go with my idea or theirs.
However my idea keeps consistent with how it used to work and how it works in Oblivion and Skyrim (as well as the lore).

The difference will be in how often you will feed or drink Bloody Mara. If vampire power levels will be reverted, when you use vampiric abilities in battles you will lose power fast, your skills will cost more, and you will lose most powerfull passives, so it will encourage you to feed or drink Bloody Mara more often. Even players that take vampirism only for passives and don't useing skills will be forced to feed once in 6 hours.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

As mentioned, literally you two are the only ones that have discussed this. Why would the devs take note with what you two say over everyone who is down for the changes?

You're literally wrong, but its alright.

I'm not going to stop fighting for what I believe is right, simply to please a crowd who wants a modern vampire fiction, power fantasy. I play Elder Scrolls to have an Elder Scrolls experience. If you blame me for fighting for that, then I'm lost for words.

Crowd don't want modern vampire fiction, crowd want interesting gameplay which will allow player to feel that he play as a vampire, by encouraging feeding as part of this gameplay. If it can be doable within TES lore, i think, no one will be against it, but it seems not, at least for MMO reality.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

Hellvlad wrote: »

Just.. no!

Stage 4 is basically the only reason to have vampirism, for the QoL with stealth , helping with pick-pocketing, and skip trash packs. Considering you need hours to get back in stage 4 it makes no sense and it's unplayable

You do realize that all the previous example you provided WW, bone tyrant form are triggered powers, not a permanent passive state?

Hey, welcome to ESO. I assume you're new here.

You can go back to stage four in literal seconds by spamming mist form.

barney2525

I didn't actually read your details, as I got confused by the premise.

They are putting a new system into play. It is Not in play yet. There has been no opportunity whatsoever to see if the new system has any issues that need to be addressed.

Yet, you have come up with a " Solution " to a problem that does not exist - at least not yet. Trying to hang on to a concept which makes little sense ( as in vampires get stronger the longer they go without feeding ) in favor of dissuading an idea that Company agrees does make sense ( as in vampires Do need to feed regularly to increase their power ) is generally going to be a lost cause that does not require a " Solution ".

But the least we should do is Use the new system for a good length of time before suggesting that there is a problem that requires some Solution.

IMHO

ShadowHvo

XomRhoK wrote: »

Crowd don't want modern vampire fiction, crowd want interesting gameplay which will allow player to feel that he play as a vampire, by encouraging feeding as part of this gameplay. If it can be doable within TES lore, i think, no one will be against it, but it seems not, at least for MMO reality.

But the OP's suggestion is that.

We already know that the feeding mechanic is going to be similar to the Dark Brotherhood's Blade of Woe. Do you find that to be interesting and engaging gameplay?

I sure don't. But I think its far more interesting to feed to keep myself healthy and humane, to avoid getting chased out by the local guard, rather than feeding to gain access to passives.

Plus, add ontop of that when people are out raiding or otherwise in an environment where people cannot feed. As in, they're against enemies, which appear in large abundances in ESO, that you cannot feed upon. Then you have to switch between Bloody Mara's and your normal Buff Food.

I'm calling it now, once this is released, we'll see ton of people complaining about the resource sink that only affects vampires, and nobody else.

Faulgor

Agreed. The new system doesn't make any sense.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Plus, add ontop of that when people are out raiding or otherwise in an environment where people cannot feed. As in, they're against enemies, which appear in large abundances in ESO, that you cannot feed upon. Then you have to switch between Bloody Mara's and your normal Buff Food.

I'm calling it now, once this is released, we'll see ton of people complaining about the resource sink that only affects vampires, and nobody else.

That's exactly what will happen, feeding will just become a nuisance to buff up, either by chugging Bloody Maras or draining your target dummy, etc. The only way to create engaging gameplay is to require different actions in different circumstances, ones that can't be easily circumvented. Just buffing up to Stage 4 before combat is going to get old really fast.

XomRhoK

ShadowHvo wrote: »

But the OP's suggestion is that.

We already know that the feeding mechanic is going to be similar to the Dark Brotherhood's Blade of Woe. Do you find that to be interesting and engaging gameplay?

Don't understand what you mean by this, maybe some misunderstanding. As i understood from ZOS presentations and interviews they just remake feeding animation using same technologies as with Blade of Woe animations, that allows to adjust to height of characters and distance.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I sure don't. But I think its far more interesting to feed to keep myself healthy and humane, to avoid getting chased out by the local guard, rather than feeding to gain access to passives.

I think both things interesting, feed before/while in fight and feed to keep human form(or mesmerize or use disguise) to interact with NPCs. ZOS could do both really if feeding will make you more powerful and make you look more like human, but they chose to feeding make you look more vampiric, because they want to people have a trade off, if you want to be powerfull vampire people will see that (Rich said that at 1:03:00 in this video), at first it have sence, but if you remember of all skins and close helms in game that becomes useless addition. From other side, i, for example, want to play as powerful vampire and want to look more vampiric. Cool vampiric skin would work for me, but i don't like what they have now and what already datamined. I made suggestions by this topic in this post, but i doubt they will do so.
And while i wrote this i remembered that Rich mentioned mesmerize skill at Greymoore presentation, so maybe we will have some kind of NPC intereaction gameplay, or maybe it will be just stun in combat

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Plus, add ontop of that when people are out raiding or otherwise in an environment where people cannot feed. As in, they're against enemies, which appear in large abundances in ESO, that you cannot feed upon. Then you have to switch between Bloody Mara's and your normal Buff Food.

I'm calling it now, once this is released, we'll see ton of people complaining about the resource sink that only affects vampires, and nobody else.

In my opinion, if player don't want to feed or drink Blody Mara he don't need to play as vampire, if player like vampire gameplay, he will accept this rules as part of gameplay.

Faulgor wrote: »

Agreed. The new system doesn't make any sense.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Plus, add ontop of that when people are out raiding or otherwise in an environment where people cannot feed. As in, they're against enemies, which appear in large abundances in ESO, that you cannot feed upon. Then you have to switch between Bloody Mara's and your normal Buff Food.

I'm calling it now, once this is released, we'll see ton of people complaining about the resource sink that only affects vampires, and nobody else.

That's exactly what will happen, feeding will just become a nuisance to buff up, either by chugging Bloody Maras or draining your target dummy, etc. The only way to create engaging gameplay is to require different actions in different circumstances, ones that can't be easily circumvented. Just buffing up to Stage 4 before combat is going to get old really fast.

But at least there will be place for feeding before combat, now there is none. And if player don't like to feed as a vampire character he may not play as a vampire or pay alittle extra for Blood Mara, but players who like this aspect will have this opportunity.
Agree with you about engaging gameplay, it would be cool if vampires could feed in combat, try to get close to player/NPC by using stun or gap closer. Maybe they will do it through Vampiric Drain skill, no as cool as bite in the neck, but better than nothing.

Grianasteri

The feeding mechanic works as it is. Perhaps there is no right or wrong way. Across the Vampire genre this has been handled both ways regularly in books, movies, games.

Personally I think it makes sense that if a Vampire feeds, they become stronger.

Beyond the feeding issue, what Vampires in ESO really need is a complete rework of the Vampire skill tree/mechanics. At present the only reason people really become Vampires outside of RP, is for the mag regen and damage mitigation passives. Compared to the usability of Werewolves with their entire new skill line ultimate, I think thats a pretty poor state of affairs for Vampires to be in.

Or compare it to the benefits and mechanics involved in games such as Oblivion. Being a Vampire was an engaging and useful way to play.

Kombinator

I like the idea. Sure most role says, that well fed vampire is stronger, but TES lore already goes opposite. The crawing of blood increases strength, but also lose your humanity.

One expansion to it though. If you logged off, then you get stucked in stage 3, or not progress at all. So you won't be in the middle of hostiles if you log off in a city, and return a week later.

Thevampirenight

Faulgor wrote: »

Agreed. The new system doesn't make any sense.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Plus, add ontop of that when people are out raiding or otherwise in an environment where people cannot feed. As in, they're against enemies, which appear in large abundances in ESO, that you cannot feed upon. Then you have to switch between Bloody Mara's and your normal Buff Food.

I'm calling it now, once this is released, we'll see ton of people complaining about the resource sink that only affects vampires, and nobody else.

That's exactly what will happen, feeding will just become a nuisance to buff up, either by chugging Bloody Maras or draining your target dummy, etc. The only way to create engaging gameplay is to require different actions in different circumstances, ones that can't be easily circumvented. Just buffing up to Stage 4 before combat is going to get old really fast.

Given the many issues listed. I made this thread to go into detail and a poll to see if community is open to it on how they can make it less annoying. But also make them feel like vampires too. All we need is two stages. Well Sated, and Very Thirsty. Doing it this way would help cut back on the issues of it getting tedious and also make it fun as well. Without worrying about making your vampire look like a hideous zombie.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/509322/should-they-cut-down-the-vampire-stages-too-just-two-stages-and-fix-so-many-issues

mague

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Feeding makes you more human

Apples and oranges ?

Being a Vampire makes you less human. Not the state of your belly. With hunger everyone is weak and stuffed strong. Just vampires cant die, only turn into dry mummies.

Ratzkifal

barney2525 wrote: »

I didn't actually read your details, as I got confused by the premise.

They are putting a new system into play. It is Not in play yet. There has been no opportunity whatsoever to see if the new system has any issues that need to be addressed.

Yet, you have come up with a " Solution " to a problem that does not exist - at least not yet. Trying to hang on to a concept which makes little sense ( as in vampires get stronger the longer they go without feeding ) in favor of dissuading an idea that Company agrees does make sense ( as in vampires Do need to feed regularly to increase their power ) is generally going to be a lost cause that does not require a " Solution ".

But the least we should do is Use the new system for a good length of time before suggesting that there is a problem that requires some Solution.

IMHO

@barney2525 Well, Rich Lambert gave an interview and confirmed something about how they are planning to have vampirism work in Q2, which I think is indeed a bit of a problem as it messes with the lore and consistency with other games of the franchise. ZOS seems eager to sacrifice these things to achieve their goals, so I am presenting a way to achieve their goals without these sacrifices.
The concept you claim makes little sense, does make sense within the Elder Scrolls lore as it is explained not as vampires getting their powers from drinking blood, but vampires getting their powers from being cursed/blessed monsters who are only able to retain some of their humanity and sanity by drinking blood.
The reason I am here so early is because we know that once PTS starts, the changes are already set in stone even if the criticism is fair and warranted.

Ratzkifal

mague wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Feeding makes you more human

Apples and oranges ?

Being a Vampire makes you less human. Not the state of your belly. With hunger everyone is weak and stuffed strong. Just vampires cant die, only turn into dry mummies.

@mague Some people are complaining that in the new system feeding makes you look more monsterous. This was a reference to that.
But no, in the Elder Scrolls, a hungry vampire isn't weaker. A hungry vampire is stronger. Their curse/blessing removes the need for sustenance (for their body - not their mind). Their vampiric abilities only grow more powerful the longer they go without blood, but it also drives them crazy. They still thirst for blood, but not because they need it to stay alive/strong.

Ratzkifal

Grianasteri wrote: »

The feeding mechanic works as it is. Perhaps there is no right or wrong way. Across the Vampire genre this has been handled both ways regularly in books, movies, games.

Personally I think it makes sense that if a Vampire feeds, they become stronger.

Beyond the feeding issue, what Vampires in ESO really need is a complete rework of the Vampire skill tree/mechanics. At present the only reason people really become Vampires outside of RP, is for the mag regen and damage mitigation passives. Compared to the usability of Werewolves with their entire new skill line ultimate, I think thats a pretty poor state of affairs for Vampires to be in.

Or compare it to the benefits and mechanics involved in games such as Oblivion. Being a Vampire was an engaging and useful way to play.

Well said,
although I agree for most vampiric fiction, I am in favor of sticking with tradition in the Elder Scrolls. Until now it simply has always been vampires getting stronger the longer they go without blood but becoming more monsterous looking and insane in the process, while becoming more human and sane once they fed and sated their hunger.

Iccotak

Vampires getting weaker without feeding has been a thing in previous Elder Scroll games

They got stronger in certain ways but they received massive vulnerabilities so the strengths were never really worth it.

Vampires are all about drinking blood to survive losing their sanity was a consequence of the intense hunger & thirst they felt. If you play a vampire then you should have to take on that role when it comes to gameplay - not make it a minor inconvenience for getting into town.

The change they are making is great.

The only thing that should be done for Werewolves & Vampires is updating the appearance

Ratzkifal

Iccotak wrote: »

Vampires getting weaker without feeding has been a thing in previous Elder Scroll games

They got stronger in certain ways but they received massive vulnerabilities so the strengths were never really worth it.

Vampires are all about drinking blood to survive losing their sanity was a consequence of the intense hunger & thirst they felt. If you play a vampire then you should have to take on that role when it comes to gameplay - not make it a minor inconvenience for getting into town.

The change they are making is great.

The only thing that should be done for Werewolves & Vampires is updating the appearance

@Iccotak In the context of this thread "strength" and "weakness" are used to describe your vampiric powers, meaning your undeath passive and 21% reduced skill cost of vampire abilities. Of course there are drawbacks attached to vampirism as well, but those are not regarded as "weakness" as they come with the package and are/used to be your motivator to feed if you don't want to feel these drawbacks anymore.

Also, vampires don't need to drink blood to survive in the Elder Scrolls. Yes, they have intense hunger/thirst for it that would eventually drive them insane, but they don't depend on it to survive, like living people do with water, food and air. If you starve a vampire of blood, he will lose his mind but then keep existing in his prison forever and not grow weaker. Even after hundreds of years, this vampire will remain as much of a thread as when he was imprisoned.

barney2525

Ratzkifal wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

I didn't actually read your details, as I got confused by the premise.

They are putting a new system into play. It is Not in play yet. There has been no opportunity whatsoever to see if the new system has any issues that need to be addressed.

Yet, you have come up with a " Solution " to a problem that does not exist - at least not yet. Trying to hang on to a concept which makes little sense ( as in vampires get stronger the longer they go without feeding ) in favor of dissuading an idea that Company agrees does make sense ( as in vampires Do need to feed regularly to increase their power ) is generally going to be a lost cause that does not require a " Solution ".

But the least we should do is Use the new system for a good length of time before suggesting that there is a problem that requires some Solution.

IMHO

@barney2525 Well, Rich Lambert gave an interview and confirmed something about how they are planning to have vampirism work in Q2, which I think is indeed a bit of a problem as it messes with the lore and consistency with other games of the franchise. ZOS seems eager to sacrifice these things to achieve their goals, so I am presenting a way to achieve their goals without these sacrifices.
The concept you claim makes little sense, does make sense within the Elder Scrolls lore as it is explained not as vampires getting their powers from drinking blood, but vampires getting their powers from being cursed/blessed monsters who are only able to retain some of their humanity and sanity by drinking blood.
The reason I am here so early is because we know that once PTS starts, the changes are already set in stone even if the criticism is fair and warranted.

The problem is - Lore is wonderful... As a story. Applying some aspects of Lore to any game mechanic is, in some cases, impossible. Insanity is one of those things. Insanity is something that cannot be turned into a game mechanic, because the player would quite literally have no control over the character - if it was being played 'truly fair'. You would say 'so the character must keep drinking blood' and I would respond 'this is a game designed for the player to spend time gaining XP so they can use the highest level skills. Forcing players to drink blood and remain at lower vampire levels is completely contrary to that. Yet allowing them to stop drinking, gain their full powers and also Be Insane and therefore have no control over their characters is not a solution either. In short, reaching level 4 should remove the character from the game.' And this is not a good thing. You might say that they could go get cured ... but they Can't. They are Insane. They don't think they need to be cured of anything.

Bottom line - If you want to hold to the hard line that Lore should not be adjusted, then Vampirism needs to be removed completely as aspects that can be added to a character. It is not a playable concept... with THIS Lore.

So, they adjust the Lore because they Don't want to remove it from the game, and bring it more into line with conventional Vampirism. This is something that IMHO the majority of players will understand since the conventional model is what most players are accustomed to.

You can not take the position that the game mechanics must fall into line with the Lore. It's a Game. Lore is not a game, it is a story. Sometimes it is not possible for Lore and Game to mesh. So, you make adjustments as you need to, to keep the Lore intact while still being able to play the game.

IMHO

Noxavian

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Vampires getting weaker without feeding has been a thing in previous Elder Scroll games

They got stronger in certain ways but they received massive vulnerabilities so the strengths were never really worth it.

Vampires are all about drinking blood to survive losing their sanity was a consequence of the intense hunger & thirst they felt. If you play a vampire then you should have to take on that role when it comes to gameplay - not make it a minor inconvenience for getting into town.

The change they are making is great.

The only thing that should be done for Werewolves & Vampires is updating the appearance

@Iccotak In the context of this thread "strength" and "weakness" are used to describe your vampiric powers, meaning your undeath passive and 21% reduced skill cost of vampire abilities. Of course there are drawbacks attached to vampirism as well, but those are not regarded as "weakness" as they come with the package and are/used to be your motivator to feed if you don't want to feel these drawbacks anymore.

Also, vampires don't need to drink blood to survive in the Elder Scrolls. Yes, they have intense hunger/thirst for it that would eventually drive them insane, but they don't depend on it to survive, like living people do with water, food and air. If you starve a vampire of blood, he will lose his mind but then keep existing in his prison forever and not grow weaker. Even after hundreds of years, this vampire will remain as much of a thread as when he was imprisoned.

I must say, the fact that the hill of which you and that one other person dying on is a thing regarding trivial lore is quite hilarious. You two are so devoutly defending the "but muh LoRe" it's actually very, very humorous. I believe @barney2525 worded it very nicely, though.

Idk, I don't think this is worth making such a big statement over.

Seriously, THEY ARE NOT going to change it or revoke what they've said because of a few people complaining when the majority of their feedback has been positive. You aren't changing any minds and honestly, in my opinion, you kinda cemented your own grave by proposing solutions to something when it's not even playable. You are quite literally so paranoid about a feature/change yet to come that you're already trying to fix it, man.

Let it go dude. Let it happen. If people end up disliking it once they get their hands on it, then sure, make your point. But right now you're looking mighty foolish with all of this defending of a mechanic BARELY anyone really liked like they're committing a great sin against your life or something.

Wait and see how the actual changes are, how they play, how people react to them.

Ryath_Waylander

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Hellvlad wrote: »

Just.. no!

Stage 4 is basically the only reason to have vampirism, for the QoL with stealth , helping with pick-pocketing, and skip trash packs. Considering you need hours to get back in stage 4 it makes no sense and it's unplayable

You do realize that all the previous example you provided WW, bone tyrant form are triggered powers, not a permanent passive state?

@Hellvlad Yes, Stage 4 is basically the only reason to have vampirism, but you don't need hours to get back into stage 4. Every time you use a vampire ability, your remaining time to the next stage gets reduced by 30minutes. With a reversal, you will continue to lose vampiric power unless you keep feeding, so it will become an inconvenience either way.
The question is just, whether to keep it consistent with older TES games or turn it all on its head?

Also just for info. A disastrous bloody mara drink will put you into stage 4 immediately. Possibly why they introduced it at last year's witches festival. Makes you think how long they might have been contemplating this move.