Suggestion for the vampire rework - an alternative to the feeding reversal

Beardimus

People should want to be a vamp for vamp skills

Or to be a vamp

Most of PvP run about as one for the passives. It won't be popular but changing that wouldn't be a bad thing.

Thevampirenight

Well now that I look at it they might be doing something just as unique. Here is the lore on feeding and blood.

The most defining characteristic of vampires is their unnatural, insatiable need for blood. A hybridization of a plant and vampiric blood led to plants with a similar, voracious hunger for blood, among other things.[10] Blood may not be needed to stay "alive", but doing without it can cause a vampire to become extremely weak and rabid, though some types of vampires will instead become stronger and more vampiric. However, they will still become rabid after too long without blood[7][11] and in some cases, can fall into a coma. Consuming blood also allows some vampire bloodlines to maintain a more inconspicuous appearance, dulling their vampiric qualities but may improve their health and regeneration.

What they are doing is adding new lore. Vampires have to feed in order to be more powerful. They are adding their own twist so to speak. Vampires have to feed to be more powerful but also risk Looking like ugly stage four at the highest tier of power. Given the strain we have is the first. I suspect that might be why they have the sunlight immunity but also Lamae has denounced both Arkay and Shuns Molag Bal. The reversal of how it works could be because she was truly unwilling. Molag Bal doing what he did to her unwillingly while most if not all the others were done willingly. Given she had no choice and couldn't fight back against such power. Her being a victim and not made by her willingness to let Molag Bal do that to her unlike all the other vampire strains . Her choosing not to be a victim but a survivor that has survived great adversity could also play a part in it. Will explain that more down below.

Given she is the first Mother of Vampirism she is also likely the most powerful vampire. Possibly even more powerful then any of the other daughters of Coldharbor combined. She grows stronger with each new member of her bloodline something that might be unique to her alone.
While others are created more willingly through deals and packs. Given the uniqueness of her situation she might have power in how it works and how it is spread her strain and other strains that come from her. Molag bal had to have someone willingly summit in order to take their soul in Skyrim. Lamae was not forced to summit but was ravaged by Molag Bal to spite Arkay. But Arkay turned his back on her as well.

So she had to survive two tragedies. One of Molag Bal and one caused because Arkay was being a ***. So she became a survivor and overcame it.
She could weep and moan and cry and be traumatized wanting to die. No she didn't give into that she overcame it everything that happened to her she faced it and overcame. She chooses not to be a victim even after everything that has happened to her. As the saying goes what doesn't destroy you makes you stronger. So it could make sense that the typical vampirism is flipped when it comes to her because she chooses to be above both of them and allows neither to have power over her.

So I don't think Either Molag Bal or Arkay has any power over her or anyone of her bloodline for those reasons. Only she has the power over it. As such she can dictate how it works.

Lamae and her struggle could be considered a symbol of Empowerment.
Scions are not bound to Molag Bal or Arkay they are above them and they are survivors just like Lamae they share her struggle if they are willing but she gives them a choice. They are not victims they are not suffering from a disease they are above it. They are survivors in the face of adversity.
Lore does support it and the new changes could also support that type of theme.
From this book the following.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rite_of_the_Scion

What separates a Scion from a mere vampire?
A vampire is a victim. They are poor creatures suffering from a disease. Scions are blessed by the Blood Matron directly. More potent is their blood. More terrible is their wrath. More beautiful is their visage.

Vampires are their flock, mortals their fare.

Whom does the Scion serve?
The Scion, child of the Blood Matron, bows to no one. The Mother has broken their bonds. To serve is their choice, but the Mother would see Her children unite and turn their opponents into subjects.

What is the Covenant of the Scion?
Arkay the Forsaker, we curse you. You left us to suffer in darkness.
But we survived. And in darkness, we grew.
Now, we feed upon your followers. We will use their stolen strength to conquer and consume you.
Molag Bal, Father of Torment, we curse you. You sought to poison us with your blood.
But we survived. And from your poison, we grew.
King of Corruption, your children are coming. We will defile and destroy you.
We step away from the light. We sacrifice the frailty of breath.
From the dead blood of our Mother, we live unburdened. Her curse is our blessing. Her fury, our grace.

Slimebrow

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Thevampirenight

Flubbles wrote: »

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Vampires in Elder scrolls can eat normal food and drink. Though they really don't benefit from really being sated from it. But can still eat it. Wouldn't make sense that they couldn't gain from the food buffs and passives. Also why would they be able to eat raw meat but can't enjoy cooked food?

Slimebrow

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Vampires in Elder scrolls can eat normal food and drink. Though they really don't benefit from really being sated from it. But can still eat it. Wouldn't make sense that they couldn't gain from the food buffs and passives. Also why would they be able to eat raw meat but can't enjoy cooked food?

Huh didn't know that... I thought it would be a cool detail to have rather than them eating like normal cooked food and gaining benefits instead gain those benefits by feeding on people. As for raw food I thought it would be a better option considering they don't gain any benefits from eating cooked food.

Ratzkifal

barney2525 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

I didn't actually read your details, as I got confused by the premise.

They are putting a new system into play. It is Not in play yet. There has been no opportunity whatsoever to see if the new system has any issues that need to be addressed.

Yet, you have come up with a " Solution " to a problem that does not exist - at least not yet. Trying to hang on to a concept which makes little sense ( as in vampires get stronger the longer they go without feeding ) in favor of dissuading an idea that Company agrees does make sense ( as in vampires Do need to feed regularly to increase their power ) is generally going to be a lost cause that does not require a " Solution ".

But the least we should do is Use the new system for a good length of time before suggesting that there is a problem that requires some Solution.

IMHO

@barney2525 Well, Rich Lambert gave an interview and confirmed something about how they are planning to have vampirism work in Q2, which I think is indeed a bit of a problem as it messes with the lore and consistency with other games of the franchise. ZOS seems eager to sacrifice these things to achieve their goals, so I am presenting a way to achieve their goals without these sacrifices.
The concept you claim makes little sense, does make sense within the Elder Scrolls lore as it is explained not as vampires getting their powers from drinking blood, but vampires getting their powers from being cursed/blessed monsters who are only able to retain some of their humanity and sanity by drinking blood.
The reason I am here so early is because we know that once PTS starts, the changes are already set in stone even if the criticism is fair and warranted.

The problem is - Lore is wonderful... As a story. Applying some aspects of Lore to any game mechanic is, in some cases, impossible. Insanity is one of those things. Insanity is something that cannot be turned into a game mechanic, because the player would quite literally have no control over the character - if it was being played 'truly fair'. You would say 'so the character must keep drinking blood' and I would respond 'this is a game designed for the player to spend time gaining XP so they can use the highest level skills. Forcing players to drink blood and remain at lower vampire levels is completely contrary to that. Yet allowing them to stop drinking, gain their full powers and also Be Insane and therefore have no control over their characters is not a solution either. In short, reaching level 4 should remove the character from the game.' And this is not a good thing. You might say that they could go get cured ... but they Can't. They are Insane. They don't think they need to be cured of anything.

Bottom line - If you want to hold to the hard line that Lore should not be adjusted, then Vampirism needs to be removed completely as aspects that can be added to a character. It is not a playable concept... with THIS Lore.

So, they adjust the Lore because they Don't want to remove it from the game, and bring it more into line with conventional Vampirism. This is something that IMHO the majority of players will understand since the conventional model is what most players are accustomed to.

You can not take the position that the game mechanics must fall into line with the Lore. It's a Game. Lore is not a game, it is a story. Sometimes it is not possible for Lore and Game to mesh. So, you make adjustments as you need to, to keep the Lore intact while still being able to play the game.

IMHO

That's a bit of a strawman argument right there. I don't think it's necessary to force the "insanity" into the gameplay as well, although there still could be ways to make that work too if you really tried.

The only gripe I have with this change is that it completely twists around how vampirism works/used to work in TES, with a vampire being at their most dangerous when starved of blood. The insanity stuff is not needed for player characters for the very reasons you stated. It just wouldn't be fun. We agree on that and you successfully knocked down the strawman. :P

I am not taking the position that game mechanics must in all cases fall in line with the lore, but in those where it is avoidable to contradict lore without sacrificing anything, it should. I don't see how my proposal is any less fun than what ZOS introduced. In fact, I feel it makes the world come more alive and makes the choice of being a vampire more meaningful and impactful.

Edit: I just thought of another lore-accurate mechanic I wouldn't want to see in ESO. Vampires stop regenerating resources and health in daylight. That would be an accurate inconvenience that just wouldn't be fun, especially since you can't press a button to wait 8 ingame hours until the sun has set.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Did it ever once occur to you that Feeding to become stronger was always part of the lore and the starving to get stronger part was nothing more then a game mechanic to cater to those who would not beable to handle a game like Daggerfall or Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are the only TES games with the starving mechanic and they also just so happen to be the most "Watered" down of all the games.

You could even argue that the only reason you got weaker was because you were a fledgling and therefor your body was not acustom to consuming blood, as you got older and your body had time to adjust the blood would begin to strengthen you as oppose to weaken you.

Ratzkifal

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Did it ever once occur to you that Feeding to become stronger was always part of the lore and the starving to get stronger part was nothing more then a game mechanic to cater to casuals who would not beable to handle a game like Daggerfall or Morrowind.

No, it did not, because that makes no sense. What we are getting sounds more like the catering to casuals you speak of. "Vampirism in TES is just the same it is in every other vampire fiction. Don't worry, you won't have to relearn anything, just go out there and feed because that's all you need to know about vampires."
Cool. No, I still like the way it is and has been with vampire getting boons and detriments they need to learn to balance in order to be a successful vampire.

It's really simple.
On live vampires are always just in stage 4. What should be an impactful choice is being slept on due to lack of consequences.
In Q2 vampires are always just in stage 4. It's a small inconvenience to keep feeding before the raid starts to get that vampirism up to stage 4 again.
In my proposal vampires constantly switch through the stages depending on what they need at the moment, actually interacting with their vampirism, making it a highly impactful choice. People who are too lazy and prefer sleeping on it have two Bloody Maras to help them, one of which they'd need to take once every 18h real time if they planned on standing afk in town all day without feeding.

But maybe I am wrong and people actually wouldn't find this fun, because they hate interacting more with the justice system so much. Talking about "casuals".

Thevampirenight

Flubbles wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Vampires in Elder scrolls can eat normal food and drink. Though they really don't benefit from really being sated from it. But can still eat it. Wouldn't make sense that they couldn't gain from the food buffs and passives. Also why would they be able to eat raw meat but can't enjoy cooked food?

Huh didn't know that... I thought it would be a cool detail to have rather than them eating like normal cooked food and gaining benefits instead gain those benefits by feeding on people. As for raw food I thought it would be a better option considering they don't gain any benefits from eating cooked food.

Well what makes vampires unique in the Elder Scrolls , is bethesda unique way on making them not follow the conventional tropes. Daggerfall vampirism worked similar to the other games in terms getting a vampires disease. But they were basically a variant of d&d vampires. They followed the trope of you die and you come back from the grave after being buried after your body was found and then you rise from the grave revived as undead and a vampire and have the serious sunlight weakess plus damage from holy places because gods don't like you.
When they revised the lore when getting rid of or changing half of daggerfall lore and nearly all of Arena lore.
The retcon was some vampires might feel pain near such places and vampires instead transition to the state of a vampire while alive instead of dead. Though they might not need to breath they can still drown since it would be so simple to program them not receiving drowning damage all they would have had to do was code that in. So I do believe that was done intentionally.
Garlic is another trope of the vampire. Many believe vampires can be warded away but in reality its mostly not true. Its more like a very rare vampire allergy only one vampire in that game had it. No other vampire did and that vampire even said no other vampire has that problem like he did that is another trope breaker.

Also if you were more infamous you couldn't receive divine blessings but if you were a vampire and had no infamy divines still granted you blessings so that is also done I feel on purpose in Oblivion.

Vampires have been shown to be able to drink and eat food. Trope is vampires can't eat or drink very much food in many different vampire fictions and only can drink blood. Vampires are shown to be able to eat and drink normally and that includes getting drunk.
The getting more powerful when hungrier might have been something that was to break the trope as well.

With the changes zenimax is making they are making it so you grow more ugly as you feed and more obvious then feeding instead of more human when well fed so that could be considered moving away from another trope.
So I do think they are mindful of making their vampires more unique instead of following conventional tropes all the time.

Thus vampires can eat and drink food, Get Drunk, can drown. Are transitioned while alive so yeah wouldn't make sense at all they could only eat raw meat. I think raw meat is more of a werewolf trope to be honest with you.

Erelah

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

NO

We WANT Feeding Reversal, Starving to become stronger is stupid.

Being a vampire is a daderic curse. So you are saying the further away you are from that daderic curse, I.E filling yourself with mortal blood thus being closer to humanity should empower the daderic powers within the vampire?

That is why when vampires have not fed they look more daderic at that point they are futher away from humanity.

Ratzkifal

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Vampires in Elder scrolls can eat normal food and drink. Though they really don't benefit from really being sated from it. But can still eat it. Wouldn't make sense that they couldn't gain from the food buffs and passives. Also why would they be able to eat raw meat but can't enjoy cooked food?

Huh didn't know that... I thought it would be a cool detail to have rather than them eating like normal cooked food and gaining benefits instead gain those benefits by feeding on people. As for raw food I thought it would be a better option considering they don't gain any benefits from eating cooked food.

Well what makes vampires unique in the Elder Scrolls , is bethesda unique way on making them not follow the conventional tropes. Daggerfall vampirism worked similar to the other games in terms getting a vampires disease. But they were basically a variant of d&d vampires. They followed the trope of you die and you come back from the grave after being buried after your body was found and then you rise from the grave revived as undead and a vampire and have the serious sunlight weakess plus damage from holy places because gods don't like you.
When they revised the lore when getting rid of or changing half of daggerfall lore and nearly all of Arena lore.
The retcon was some vampires might feel pain near such places and vampires instead transition to the state of a vampire while alive instead of dead. Though they might not need to breath they can still drown since it would be so simple to program them not receiving drowning damage all they would have had to do was code that in. So I do believe that was done intentionally.
Garlic is another trope of the vampire. Many believe vampires can be warded away but in reality its mostly not true. Its more like a very rare vampire allergy only one vampire in that game had it. No other vampire did and that vampire even said no other vampire has that problem like he did that is another trope breaker.

Also if you were more infamous you couldn't receive divine blessings but if you were a vampire and had no infamy divines still granted you blessings so that is also done I feel on purpose in Oblivion.

Vampires have been shown to be able to drink and eat food. Trope is vampires can't eat or drink very much food in many different vampire fictions and only can drink blood. Vampires are shown to be able to eat and drink normally and that includes getting drunk.
The getting more powerful when hungrier might have been something that was to break the trope as well.

With the changes zenimax is making they are making it so you grow more ugly as you feed and more obvious then feeding instead of more human when well fed so that could be considered moving away from another trope.
So I do think they are mindful of making their vampires more unique instead of following conventional tropes all the time.

Thus vampires can eat and drink food, Get Drunk, can drown. Are transitioned while alive so yeah wouldn't make sense at all they could only eat raw meat. I think raw meat is more of a werewolf trope to be honest with you.

I think taking the code (and lack there of) as an argument, especially Skyrim's, is a bad call. In Skyrim characters that comment on your race, won't recognize you as for example Nord when you are a Nord vampire, because the game has vampires coded as their own race.
I do like that vampires drown in TES, simply because of the implications it would have if they couldn't. 200 meters of water is all a vampire needs, so they could spend the day in the ocean if they couldn't drown. There are even many lakes deeper than that. Probably not the Ilinalta or Honrich lake, but still something to keep in mind. Also remember Pirates of the Carribean? Vampires at sea attacking trading ships would probably become a problem if they could walk on the sea floor and then rise from the depths at night to take out ships.

Ratzkifal

Erelah wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

NO

We WANT Feeding Reversal, Starving to become stronger is stupid.

Being a vampire is a daderic curse. So you are saying the further away you are from that daderic curse, I.E filling yourself with mortal blood thus being closer to humanity should empower the daderic powers within the vampire?

That is why when vampires have not fed they look more daderic at that point they are futher away from humanity.

Someone gets it!

Noxavian

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

NO

We WANT Feeding Reversal, Starving to become stronger is stupid.

Being a vampire is a daderic curse. So you are saying the further away you are from that daderic curse, I.E filling yourself with mortal blood thus being closer to humanity should empower the daderic powers within the vampire?

That is why when vampires have not fed they look more daderic at that point they are futher away from humanity.

Someone gets it!

Oooh, now there's three of you!

Thevampirenight

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

It would be cool if they added something were vampires are also unable to eat cooked food but can only eat raw meats to gain minor provisions buff. Maybe feeding also can grant a temp better provisions buff?

Vampires in Elder scrolls can eat normal food and drink. Though they really don't benefit from really being sated from it. But can still eat it. Wouldn't make sense that they couldn't gain from the food buffs and passives. Also why would they be able to eat raw meat but can't enjoy cooked food?

Huh didn't know that... I thought it would be a cool detail to have rather than them eating like normal cooked food and gaining benefits instead gain those benefits by feeding on people. As for raw food I thought it would be a better option considering they don't gain any benefits from eating cooked food.

Well what makes vampires unique in the Elder Scrolls , is bethesda unique way on making them not follow the conventional tropes. Daggerfall vampirism worked similar to the other games in terms getting a vampires disease. But they were basically a variant of d&d vampires. They followed the trope of you die and you come back from the grave after being buried after your body was found and then you rise from the grave revived as undead and a vampire and have the serious sunlight weakess plus damage from holy places because gods don't like you.
When they revised the lore when getting rid of or changing half of daggerfall lore and nearly all of Arena lore.
The retcon was some vampires might feel pain near such places and vampires instead transition to the state of a vampire while alive instead of dead. Though they might not need to breath they can still drown since it would be so simple to program them not receiving drowning damage all they would have had to do was code that in. So I do believe that was done intentionally.
Garlic is another trope of the vampire. Many believe vampires can be warded away but in reality its mostly not true. Its more like a very rare vampire allergy only one vampire in that game had it. No other vampire did and that vampire even said no other vampire has that problem like he did that is another trope breaker.

Also if you were more infamous you couldn't receive divine blessings but if you were a vampire and had no infamy divines still granted you blessings so that is also done I feel on purpose in Oblivion.

Vampires have been shown to be able to drink and eat food. Trope is vampires can't eat or drink very much food in many different vampire fictions and only can drink blood. Vampires are shown to be able to eat and drink normally and that includes getting drunk.
The getting more powerful when hungrier might have been something that was to break the trope as well.

With the changes zenimax is making they are making it so you grow more ugly as you feed and more obvious then feeding instead of more human when well fed so that could be considered moving away from another trope.
So I do think they are mindful of making their vampires more unique instead of following conventional tropes all the time.

Thus vampires can eat and drink food, Get Drunk, can drown. Are transitioned while alive so yeah wouldn't make sense at all they could only eat raw meat. I think raw meat is more of a werewolf trope to be honest with you.

I think taking the code (and lack there of) as an argument, especially Skyrim's, is a bad call. In Skyrim characters that comment on your race, won't recognize you as for example Nord when you are a Nord vampire, because the game has vampires coded as their own race.
I do like that vampires drown in TES, simply because of the implications it would have if they couldn't. 200 meters of water is all a vampire needs, so they could spend the day in the ocean if they couldn't drown. There are even many lakes deeper than that. Probably not the Ilinalta or Honrich lake, but still something to keep in mind. Also remember Pirates of the Carribean? Vampires at sea attacking trading ships would probably become a problem if they could walk on the sea floor and then rise from the depths at night to take out ships.

Many forms of vampire folklore or a trope is they can't handle running water. So If they had that weakness but didn't need to do breath they couldn't do that anyways. Because there would be currents and also the way the water moves could maybe count as running water.

What I think happened was they copied them and gave the vampiric variants what they basically needed in terms of code and
it was just was rushed but mods can fix that and unofficial patches. This might be why they missed the bug with the thieves guild hood as well. But I'm sure them being able to drown was intentional. As those games had water breathing effect all they would have to do is copy rename it to Undeath say your vampiric state you don't need to breath. They should have because of how the Volkihar vampires are said to ;live and the types of lairs they tend to dwell in would require it.
From Immortal blood
The next day, he did return with more questions, these ones very specific. He wanted to know about the vampires of eastern Skyrim. I told him about the most powerful tribe, the Volkihar Clan, paranoid and cruel, whose very breath could freeze their victims' blood in the veins. I explained to him how they lived beneath the ice of remote and haunted lakes, never venturing into the world of men except to feed.

if they lived at the bottom of frozen lakes. They would have to require the ability to not be able to breath or not be able to drown here is why.

Googled this but it makes sense as well.
Can a lake freeze completely?
Answer
It becomes less dense above and below this temperature. If water were most dense as a solid, lakes would freeze from the bottom up, eventually freezing solid. ... Most lakes and ponds don't completely freeze because the ice (and eventually snow) on the surface acts to insulate the water below

What this means is the lake water is not completely solid. Skyrims lakes would be very cold. I doubt that it could fully freeze over to the point where the entire lakes freezes up and Skyrims populace likely uses special tools to dig into the ice so they can ice fish in those lakes for food. Since there is only so many feet of the lake that is frozen the rest isn't frozen and fish still live down there like they typically do. If they did live under the Ice of Lakes they would be a form of Water Vampire. Able to withstand the cold waters below the lakes as well as existing down there without drowning. if they wanted the Volkihar to live up more to their mythology and cool lore in Immortal blood they would have the ability to breath or not have to breath at all while underwater. Bestheda choose not to go that route with them. In my opinion that might made them even cooler if they did at least made them more like the ones in Immortal blood.

The phasing through ice without breaking it would be difficult to code they could have added in points where you could go underwater into the lakes going down under the water and they could have have attacked you if they added in underwater combat which they should have it would have been a neat feature.

But they went with that lore is all crap and so Immortal blood isn't accurate and I doubt that was the real Movarth Piquine that we saw in Skyrim either because he would be a Cyrodiilic Vampire. Not a Volkihar. Just a wannabe that is how I see him as well. If they can drown like Cyrodiil vampires and Morrowind vampires then clearly their living conditions would be impossible unless they were an argonian vampire. Or had a water breathing amulet.

Ratzkifal

Noxavian wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

NO

We WANT Feeding Reversal, Starving to become stronger is stupid.

Being a vampire is a daderic curse. So you are saying the further away you are from that daderic curse, I.E filling yourself with mortal blood thus being closer to humanity should empower the daderic powers within the vampire?

That is why when vampires have not fed they look more daderic at that point they are futher away from humanity.

Someone gets it!

Oooh, now there's three of you!

Four and possibly more that haven't said anything yet.

It's fascinating to me how WoW manages to have people actually care about the lore at a much larger scale than ESO, considering how upset people are about the end of BfA and what they did to the old gods and N'zoth. But ZOS can apparently do whatever they want.
Perhaps it's because we don't really have lore content-creators, which is honestly not a surprise given ZOS' trackrecord. First the Ebonheart Pact, then the changes in Wrathstone and now this. Admittedly this is a smaller issue than the first two (at least in my book) but you gotta complain every time otherwise they'll just grow even more bold and we'll get Gotham as the next chapter location with the new Batman class.
As it stands now, I still don't see why it's necessary to reverse the feeding at all. Change should be justified instead of always changing gratuitously until someone comes up with a reason it's not good.

ShadowHvo

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampires have been shown to be able to drink and eat food. Trope is vampires can't eat or drink very much food in many different vampire fictions and only can drink blood. Vampires are shown to be able to eat and drink normally and that includes getting drunk.

One vampire managed to get herself drunk, despite several NPC's stating that they receive no sustenance from mundane food, another vampire in Rivenspire even claims that it makes her sick.

It is one of those topics where it, yet again, may be varied from bloodline to bloodline, or even vampire to vampire.

But then again, there doesn't really seem to be much of a boundary to the lore-writers writing, since in TES, even plants can become infected with a vampiric disease, so

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Did it ever once occur to you that Feeding to become stronger was always part of the lore and the starving to get stronger part was nothing more then a game mechanic to cater to those who would not beable to handle a game like Daggerfall or Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are the only TES games with the starving mechanic and they also just so happen to be the most "Watered" down of all the games.

You could even argue that the only reason you got weaker was because you were a fledgling and therefor your body was not acustom to consuming blood, as you got older and your body had time to adjust the blood would begin to strengthen you as oppose to weaken you.

Or you know, feeding is what keeps the vampire sane and sated, so that their monstrous nature doesn't take over and eventually turns them into blood-frenzy bloodfiends? You know, a rather common and hideous fate for vampires, since it is beyond recovery.

Vampirism in Oblivion and Skyrim was more developed to be in lign with its lore. Vampirism (even if I prefer these) in Daggerfall and Morrowind, prevented the player from completing most of the games story centric content. Simply because they only ever offered you to be a monstrous vampire, with no civil nor social capabilities. Despite the fact that NPC's and lore documents claimed that vampires could mask themselves within the populous, in these very games. Oblivion's invention of the stages remedied this, and allowed for a meaningful and unique duality to Vampirism.

The OP's post are far more logically conclusive and accurate to how Elder Scrolls Vampirism has been represented, both by mechanics and lore.

Nerouyn

It's an interesting idea and I myself have suggested that it's bloody weird that vamps run around towns without guards being bothered, when in the single player games it took a daedric artifact (Clavicus Viles' mask) to hide your vampirism so guards wouldn't attack.

Maybe that'll be a thing with the antiquities system. That mask and those rules.

Hellvlad wrote: »

Considering you need hours to get back in stage 4 it makes no sense and it's unplayable

As others have pointed out, using vamp abilities or under the new scheme, feeding would very quickly fix that.

It can also be done instantly now.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Disastrously_Bloody_Mara

Presumably under the new scheme this will also insta bump you to stage 4.

CompM4s

I hope they just drop the criminal act as a whole...

Thevampirenight

Nerouyn wrote: »

It's an interesting idea and I myself have suggested that it's bloody weird that vamps run around towns without guards being bothered, when in the single player games it took a daedric artifact (Clavicus Viles' mask) to hide your vampirism so guards wouldn't attack.

Maybe that'll be a thing with the antiquities system. That mask and those rules.

Hellvlad wrote: »

Considering you need hours to get back in stage 4 it makes no sense and it's unplayable

As others have pointed out, using vamp abilities or under the new scheme, feeding would very quickly fix that.

It can also be done instantly now.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Disastrously_Bloody_Mara

Presumably under the new scheme this will also insta bump you to stage 4.

I do think they are going to switch that up. To make Disastrously Bloody-Mara actually Disastrously to you. I think they are going to change it to be where it takes you back to the weakest stage. I don't think they will switch up the purpose of the two potions other then flipping the code on them.
There is reason for this I think. Vampire's are just used for their passives and not played as vampires. They want them to be vampires so they have to have blood to be vampires to have the power you have to have some kind of blood. What I think they will do is make bloody mara increase your stage each time you drink it and then have the disastrously bloody mara take it back down again. But if you have to keep it up well then you would actually have to drink more bloody maras.

If they keep in the system with abilties increasing your stage but flipped reducing it so they might even become more important to have. They could do it this way to make it not as desirable for pvp builds and maybe reduce the number of vampires. Could be another reason. As they want it to be a far more active skill line then a passive one and not just a free buff. What they are doing is removing the free buff from it and making actually having to cost something for those buffs.

FierceSam

To some extent it doesn’t matter whether the current vampire set up is lore friendly or not. It doesn’t work.

Players are becoming vampires because the passives are excellent - literally free regen and stealth. And then never doing anything vampire-like.

They just stay at L4 because gamewise there is no benefit in being any less powerful. It is literally ‘Get bitten, get to L4, never do anything vampiric again... take the passives and run with them’.

It is stupid that the player doesn’t have to actively keep up their vampire powers. It might be lore friendly, but it goes against what most people believe about vampires and gameplaying good sense. These changes should make vampire an active choice that the player is required to take action to maintain, rather than a collection of passives players can opt to take without consequence.

Long overdue.

Iccotak

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

NO

We WANT Feeding Reversal, Starving to become stronger is stupid.

Being a vampire is a daderic curse. So you are saying the further away you are from that daderic curse, I.E filling yourself with mortal blood thus being closer to humanity should empower the daderic powers within the vampire?

That is why when vampires have not fed they look more daderic at that point they are futher away from humanity.

Someone gets it!

Vampires are not at their most dangerous when starved.
Vampires became stronger in some regard but they are dangerous like a hungry animal.
They also gained extreme vulnerabilities. Feeding on mortals was how Vampires normally gaining power.

Lycanthropy is similar in its daedric nature - you're not half man half beast - a Werewolf is a Daedric form that a mortal can choose wear or be cursed to bear (pun intended)

@Ratzkifal
People are upset by how WoW treated the Old Gods because of the importance N'zoth had in the lore. They felt that he was sold short of what he was hyped to be since Vanilla.

If you play a vampire there should be a cost - from the crime system & needing blood.
Since the game can't make your controls stop working as you lose sanity from hunger - the better solution was implementing a mechanic that you need to regularly eat blood to amass & retain power - as many Powerful Vampires in the lore do.

Just as Werewolves have to turn into their Lycanthrope form to get more access to their power.

You are making a big deal out of nothing and out of misinterpreting the lore

alanmatillab16_ESO

Lore? You do realise ESO is an era or two BEFORE the other games that you are quoting lore from. If the Lore of Vampires is so important why are those players not complaining about the lack of damage from sunlight?

Given the lack of damage from sunlight and feeding the Vampires of the later games and the ones so far in ESO could easily be one "species" and there are others out there.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampires have been shown to be able to drink and eat food. Trope is vampires can't eat or drink very much food in many different vampire fictions and only can drink blood. Vampires are shown to be able to eat and drink normally and that includes getting drunk.

One vampire managed to get herself drunk, despite several NPC's stating that they receive no sustenance from mundane food, another vampire in Rivenspire even claims that it makes her sick.

It is one of those topics where it, yet again, may be varied from bloodline to bloodline, or even vampire to vampire.

But then again, there doesn't really seem to be much of a boundary to the lore-writers writing, since in TES, even plants can become infected with a vampiric disease, so

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Did it ever once occur to you that Feeding to become stronger was always part of the lore and the starving to get stronger part was nothing more then a game mechanic to cater to those who would not beable to handle a game like Daggerfall or Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are the only TES games with the starving mechanic and they also just so happen to be the most "Watered" down of all the games.

You could even argue that the only reason you got weaker was because you were a fledgling and therefor your body was not acustom to consuming blood, as you got older and your body had time to adjust the blood would begin to strengthen you as oppose to weaken you.

Or you know, feeding is what keeps the vampire sane and sated, so that their monstrous nature doesn't take over and eventually turns them into blood-frenzy bloodfiends? You know, a rather common and hideous fate for vampires, since it is beyond recovery.

Vampirism in Oblivion and Skyrim was more developed to be in lign with its lore. Vampirism (even if I prefer these) in Daggerfall and Morrowind, prevented the player from completing most of the games story centric content. Simply because they only ever offered you to be a monstrous vampire, with no civil nor social capabilities. Despite the fact that NPC's and lore documents claimed that vampires could mask themselves within the populous, in these very games. Oblivion's invention of the stages remedied this, and allowed for a meaningful and unique duality to Vampirism.

The OP's post are far more logically conclusive and accurate to how Elder Scrolls Vampirism has been represented, both by mechanics and lore.

Nobody cares, Vampires get stronger by feeding now, this is the new and IMPROVED Lore, this is what is now canon.

Ratzkifal

FierceSam wrote: »

To some extent it doesn’t matter whether the current vampire set up is lore friendly or not. It doesn’t work.

Players are becoming vampires because the passives are excellent - literally free regen and stealth. And then never doing anything vampire-like.

They just stay at L4 because gamewise there is no benefit in being any less powerful. It is literally ‘Get bitten, get to L4, never do anything vampiric again... take the passives and run with them’.

It is stupid that the player doesn’t have to actively keep up their vampire powers. It might be lore friendly, but it goes against what most people believe about vampires and gameplaying good sense. These changes should make vampire an active choice that the player is required to take action to maintain, rather than a collection of passives players can opt to take without consequence.

Long overdue.

You are right. I also think the current vampire setup needs a change, but I disagree with ZOS on how that change should look like and am presenting my solution here.
Making vampiric abilities be criminal activities is a good start, but if we take Mistform for example, why is that so bad that it would be a crime? Well because it makes you easily identifiable as a bloodsucker and guards hate bloodsuckers. But what's just as telling is the look of a Stage 4 vampire. Everyone and their grandma can tell they are vampires, which is not the case for untransformed Werewolfs and Necromancers.

You might think it's stupid that vampires don't need to have to actively keep up their powers, but I think it's stupid that vampires don't have to actively keep their hunger down to not be discovered.

Once again, we agree on the why, but not on the how and I don't see the benefit in sacrificing continuity and consistency with lore if one is not inherently better than the other.

Ratzkifal

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Lore? You do realise ESO is an era or two BEFORE the other games that you are quoting lore from. If the Lore of Vampires is so important why are those players not complaining about the lack of damage from sunlight?

Given the lack of damage from sunlight and feeding the Vampires of the later games and the ones so far in ESO could easily be one "species" and there are others out there.

This is the worst argument I've heard yet. What does it matter if ESO is set before or after the other games? This is not the merethic era and it's not even during a dragonbreak. The rules for how the world works don't change from one game to the next without any explanation.
Why are those players not complaining about the lack of damage from sunlight you ask? Because our strand of vampirism doesn't take sun damage while others do. If you are infected with Porphyric Hemophilia then even in ESO's time, you will take sun damage.
But none of the player characters are infected with that and if you want to give me the argument that in Q2 we will switch what type of vampires we are, then I'd like that to be acknowledged and ZOS to come up with a new name for a new vampire disease we can get infected with. Let's be real, they haven't even bothered to think of an explanation why Altmer regain stamina on a magicka build so why would they bother to give us lore on the new strand of vampirism they create just for this balance change.
Lastly, sun damage and other sun related detriments just don't work for ESO because we can't sleep at an inn or wait 12h in a dark cave until it's nighttime in game. That's why this will never be a thing and that's why I am completely okay with that. Here gameplay would indeed triumph over lore, if it was actually against the lore, which it isn't as pointed out above. I fail to see how it is so without any alternative that vampires progress stages from feeding instead of regressing that this would apply here as well.

FierceSam

Ratzkifal wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

To some extent it doesn’t matter whether the current vampire set up is lore friendly or not. It doesn’t work.

Players are becoming vampires because the passives are excellent - literally free regen and stealth. And then never doing anything vampire-like.

They just stay at L4 because gamewise there is no benefit in being any less powerful. It is literally ‘Get bitten, get to L4, never do anything vampiric again... take the passives and run with them’.

It is stupid that the player doesn’t have to actively keep up their vampire powers. It might be lore friendly, but it goes against what most people believe about vampires and gameplaying good sense. These changes should make vampire an active choice that the player is required to take action to maintain, rather than a collection of passives players can opt to take without consequence.

Long overdue.

You are right. I also think the current vampire setup needs a change, but I disagree with ZOS on how that change should look like and am presenting my solution here.
Making vampiric abilities be criminal activities is a good start, but if we take Mistform for example, why is that so bad that it would be a crime? Well because it makes you easily identifiable as a bloodsucker and guards hate bloodsuckers. But what's just as telling is the look of a Stage 4 vampire. Everyone and their grandma can tell they are vampires, which is not the case for untransformed Werewolfs and Necromancers.

You might think it's stupid that vampires don't need to have to actively keep up their powers, but I think it's stupid that vampires don't have to actively keep their hunger down to not be discovered.

Once again, we agree on the why, but not on the how and I don't see the benefit in sacrificing continuity and consistency with lore if one is not inherently better than the other.

It doesn’t make a blind bit of difference if using mist form is illegal or not if no one who is a vampire bothers to use any of their powers and just becomes a vampire for the passives.

The vast majority of vampires in ESO are only vampires for the passives. They do no vampire activities, have no incentive to do any, and just sit on some fairly gargantuan bonuses. That is stupid and illogical gameplay no matter how you dress it up.

Making these benefits something the player has to actively maintain makes good gameplay (as long as it’s not like dumbarse 6 month pony training obv).

The character becomes stronger by being active. So feeding generates power and good looks. Not the other way round.

Ratzkifal

Iccotak wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

NO

We WANT Feeding Reversal, Starving to become stronger is stupid.

Being a vampire is a daderic curse. So you are saying the further away you are from that daderic curse, I.E filling yourself with mortal blood thus being closer to humanity should empower the daderic powers within the vampire?

That is why when vampires have not fed they look more daderic at that point they are futher away from humanity.

Someone gets it!

Vampires are not at their most dangerous when starved.
Vampires became stronger in some regard but they are dangerous like a hungry animal.
They also gained extreme vulnerabilities. Feeding on mortals was how Vampires normally gaining power.

Lycanthropy is similar in its daedric nature - you're not half man half beast - a Werewolf is a Daedric form that a mortal can choose wear or be cursed to bear (pun intended)

@Ratzkifal
People are upset by how WoW treated the Old Gods because of the importance N'zoth had in the lore. They felt that he was sold short of what he was hyped to be since Vanilla.

If you play a vampire there should be a cost - from the crime system & needing blood.
Since the game can't make your controls stop working as you lose sanity from hunger - the better solution was implementing a mechanic that you need to regularly eat blood to amass & retain power - as many Powerful Vampires in the lore do.

Just as Werewolves have to turn into their Lycanthrope form to get more access to their power.

You are making a big deal out of nothing and out of misinterpreting the lore

Yes, dangerous like a hungry animal. Hungry predators are the ones you need to be on the look out for, not well-fed predators that can go without needing to hunt for another week. That's why I think the system for how vampirism works in the Elder Scrolls is superior as it rides on that primal fear of hungry predators that have nothing to lose and everything to win.

On the N'zoth note, yeah, I think vampires are being sold short now. But it's not the first time this happened in ESO and every time nobody seems to care. The only time people cared was when ZOS brought the dragons back (but everything turned out alright) and it probably will happen again if they try to bring back the Dwemer. On every other subject it seems that nobody cares in the slightest and that is sad.

Well, I do think there is another option than reversing the system. If you make your most powerful form have even greater disadvantages (get attacked by guards on sight), then people will feed and start caring about managing their vampirism more properly as well as feel the need to feed often enough to matter but not too often to be an inconvenience to the point where it is unplayable. It will also stop people from sleeping on their vampire passives like they do now.

Ratzkifal

FierceSam wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

To some extent it doesn’t matter whether the current vampire set up is lore friendly or not. It doesn’t work.

Players are becoming vampires because the passives are excellent - literally free regen and stealth. And then never doing anything vampire-like.

They just stay at L4 because gamewise there is no benefit in being any less powerful. It is literally ‘Get bitten, get to L4, never do anything vampiric again... take the passives and run with them’.

It is stupid that the player doesn’t have to actively keep up their vampire powers. It might be lore friendly, but it goes against what most people believe about vampires and gameplaying good sense. These changes should make vampire an active choice that the player is required to take action to maintain, rather than a collection of passives players can opt to take without consequence.

Long overdue.

You are right. I also think the current vampire setup needs a change, but I disagree with ZOS on how that change should look like and am presenting my solution here.
Making vampiric abilities be criminal activities is a good start, but if we take Mistform for example, why is that so bad that it would be a crime? Well because it makes you easily identifiable as a bloodsucker and guards hate bloodsuckers. But what's just as telling is the look of a Stage 4 vampire. Everyone and their grandma can tell they are vampires, which is not the case for untransformed Werewolfs and Necromancers.

You might think it's stupid that vampires don't need to have to actively keep up their powers, but I think it's stupid that vampires don't have to actively keep their hunger down to not be discovered.

Once again, we agree on the why, but not on the how and I don't see the benefit in sacrificing continuity and consistency with lore if one is not inherently better than the other.

It doesn’t make a blind bit of difference if using mist form is illegal or not if no one who is a vampire bothers to use any of their powers and just becomes a vampire for the passives.

The vast majority of vampires in ESO are only vampires for the passives. They do no vampire activities, have no incentive to do any, and just sit on some fairly gargantuan bonuses. That is stupid and illogical gameplay no matter how you dress it up.

Making these benefits something the player has to actively maintain makes good gameplay (as long as it’s not like dumbarse 6 month pony training obv).

The character becomes stronger by being active. So feeding generates power and good looks. Not the other way round.

It's either going to be "earn your passives" or "passives at a cost". These options sound equal to me, but one has the advantage of being consistent with the lore and how it used to work in previous games, so I still think it's superior.
Also, when you are waiting for your trial to start, it's better to have time working for your than against you, so the "earning the passives" option might feel tedious. But we won't know about how it feels until PTS actually starts.

Thevampirenight

In Skyrim vanilla Vampirism got you attacked on sight at stage four it was bad enough I think they canned that throw it into the trash and added a loadscreen saying they are not nearly as feared or hated as the werewolf is. Plus all those that want to be stage four because of game reasons like pvp would be so not happy about such a thing possibly disliking it even more then this new change zenimax is doing if the guards attacked them on sight. I doubt Zenimax will do it. So they are going this route instead. I don't see it lore breaking or anything just adding onto existing vampire lore since there is so many strains of vampire not all of them work the same way as Skyrim or Oblivion vampires.

Here is the dawnguard loadscreen text.
(DG) As a vampire, people may comment on your unusual appearance, but they don't ever attack you or shun you like they do the werewolf.

logarifmik

Pardon my language, but this reversed vampirism mechanic they want to implement in terms of TES sounds like a complete ***, which either requires a really good explanation or must be discarded. For now it's quite clear from the lore, that vampirism is a form of daedric curse, a sick joke of Molag Bal himself, which forces vampires to feed on those who they was before in order to keep themselves sane. It's a brilliant non-conventional fantasy trope, really, and personally I'd like to see it as a part of the ESO.

And I like OP idea. Beasts shouldn't walk among common folk without being noticed and punished for whom they are. Maybe devs even should introduce a new stage, when a hungry vampire forcibly take this new vampire lord form and should feed to become a humanoid again. Also, some sort of cosmetic disguise for bloodsuckers would be a nice touch too.