Why not let people pvp in all zones, if they choose to?

peacenote · January 2020

I think the question is whether, at this point in ESO's evolution, this would add new and engaging styles of play, further drive a wedge between the longtime players and new players, or just be something to which most people would be indifferent.

I played WoW and I have mixed memories, some fond and some VERY frustrating, of that type of environment. But that is the way it ALWAYS WAS so it was just something you knew about.

At this point, I think most experienced PvP'ers would not participate much and instead focus on the more mature PvP experiences of ESO, especially because of the reward systems tied into participation. Newer PvE players interested in dipping a toe in would be frustrated with the learning curve and lack of elegant game controls to enable such an effort. We only can switch outfits quickly with mods, we don't have dual specs, etc.

If it had been a core game mechanic from the beginning it would have evolved with ESO and maybe been successful. I personally don't see it meshing well with the game now. I like to PvP and I am always open to new things but it just doesn't seem like something that would add much value to the current game experience and gather enough interested players to make a difference.

I also think ESO is very PvE focused compared to some games because many come here just for the stories and lore, probably more than other MMO's, which means there would be a portion of the playerbase who would actively HATE this.

idk · January 2020

Daus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It's a ton of fun in BDO. It would make a great addition to ESO.

BDO is much more PvP focused. Heck, it really has very little PvE.

I would say you mainly PvE in BDO actually even though the goal is PvP. What makes the PvE fun is the chance of PvP over grinding spots. IC used to have that feeling back in its prime, but there's no reason to go in the sewers anymore, and top side is just zergs farming bosses.

While that may be the case I find that rather odd as the PvE is rather lacking based on comments I have heard from players who have tried it out. If both the PvE and PvP are that lacking then it seems to cater to super casual players.

ESO's PvE is even easier. The combat in BDO is way better though; especially now. Hopefully ESO reverts a lot of their bad changes that catered to low skilled players.

That is great. But rather irrelevant to ESO. Not because BDO is rather pathetic (based on your feedback) but that it was billed top have open world PvP whereas ESO was not.

Correct, but that's the point of this thread. ZOS has been very neglectful towards the PvP community, and they need to change a lot in order to improve it. I would love to share ideas with them in order to improve things, but I haven't seen too much evidence that they're open to constructive criticism which I believe is the reason why the game is in the current state it's in.

The point of the threads was merely to suggest being able to flag for PvP in PvE zones. Nothing more than that and I double checked the OP and title before replying in this post. You are suggesting something that is not stated in the OP.

Further, it seems Zos has made a conscious decision since they stated designing this game that it would be PvE focused with some PvP. However, it is clearly a biased comment that Zos has ignored PvP since they have added a second zone that has PvP and instanced PvP matching system. That is hardly neglected.

Ofc, if you suggest they neglected PvP because we cannot PvP in most zones then that is really on you as it was plainly obvious that was not part of this games design. Maybe a PvP oriented game might suit you better. If you are truly into PvP I expect I will see you in the new world if I have not already.

Helgi_Skotina · January 2020

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

Ragnork · January 2020

Well I PvE in Cyrodill and Imperial City so it seems that there is already areas set up for PvPvE

doomette · January 2020

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

For long-term playability of the game? I think that’s more important than immersion and faction fanaticism/tribalism.

Ydrisselle · January 2020

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Same idea like in GTA Online: Passive mode, active mode. Passive mode is same as now.

If you are in active mode you can engage in combat with others that are in active mode, too.

Because almost every form of "open-world PVP" in a PVE centric game has failed in horrifyingly bad ways?
Because its not as simple as "enable pvp = true"
Because statistically, it is one of the least popular forms of PVP in games with extremely low usage rates?

WoW would like to have a word with you. The most popular MMO of all time and its most popular servers are World PvP.

Your information is outdated. With the release of Battle for Azeroth every PvP realm was converted to PvE in WoW. Now you can flag yourself for world PvP and you will get an XP buff for that, but there isn't any servers left with automatic world PvP. If you activate your PvP flag, you will be in the same phase as the others who did it, but if you won't, you will be in the same phase as the people who didn't have an active PvP flag. So it's not possible to pull anybody into PvP accidentally.

OP: world PvP may seem a good idea to you, but it's very unpopular in the current MMO playerbase. Even instanced PvP is unpopular. If you want to pull in people who don't want to do it, you will only cause them to leave the game and slowly kill ESO.

Helgi_Skotina · January 2020

doomette wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

For long-term playability of the game? I think that’s more important than immersion and faction fanaticism/tribalism.

Realism should be first. All the lore and realty of the game process is a joke atm. One Tamriel, dragons in Elsweyr, no friendly fire. What next? Mаchineguns in the crownstore?

Kiralyn2000 · January 2020

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

For long-term playability of the game? I think that’s more important than immersion and faction fanaticism/tribalism.

Realism should be first. All the lore and realty of the game process is a joke atm. One Tamriel, dragons in Elsweyr, no friendly fire. What next? Mаchineguns in the crownstore?

If you remove 1Tam, then you go back to the way it was before - where there was no "AD running through a DC land". Azura(?) was changing history so that when you were in DC lands, you were the DC Hero and when you were in AD lands, you were the AD Hero, etc. (Cadwell's Silver & Gold) This is why your "AD" character is killing DC soldiers in AD questing zones, then happily turns around and kills AD soldiers in DC zones. Whichever faction territory you were in, you were considered one of them.

BlueRaven · January 2020

No, just no. There is so many issues with this it’s almost too numerous to mention.

First let’s talk about wow. Wow USED to have pvp servers but they got rid of them. Why? Because they were always unbalanced and rarely filled. Also pvp was on a tiny minority of servers. After trying to get people to use them with xp boosts, they wisely eliminated the concept.

In eso I would predict people camping transport sites and killing anyone that is still stuck in a load screen. I also predict a lot of people teleporting to a guild mate and finding themselves on a server they don’t want to be.

Let’s face it “open world pvp” is code for, “I just want to gank people who I view as in a weaker position then I am”, and nothing more. If you disagree, I would say dueling exists, use it.

If you want open world pvp, you have cyrodill and imperial city. The fact they are mostly underused should be a clue on why this is a bad idea. And if this idea gets implemented this would further drain the poor population there even more.

Vevvev · January 2020

As much as I love open world PVP mixing and matching it with PVE elements is a problem. If I want to do PVE I go to a location where I know I cannot be ganked by a random PVPer, and if I want to do PVP I go to the designated PVP zone. Reason being is I know what to expect in the zone and it greatly reduces the amount of stress I experience.

I've played enough games that mix the two together (Elite: Dangerous, Archeage, Eve Online, and even our wonderful Imperial City) to know that its generally a bad idea even with an option for consent. I still remember getting my fishing achievement in Cyrodiil and having to check the surrounding area every minute. After getting the dye I personally would never do that again, but I still go to Cyrodiil to fight people in large scale PVP battles.

I know someone offered up multiple instances (Separate PVE and PVP) but what that does is spread out the PVP community more than it already has when they came out with battlegrounds and the Imperial City. Even if the PVP instanced zones were redesigned to be purely PVP focused they'll be mostly empty like the IC is and the other campaigns that are not the 30-day CP. What makes large scale open world PVP fun is the large battles that come out of it, and an idea like the OP proposed would defeat the purpose entirely.

albertberku · January 2020

Oh my god, i posted this idea and PvE folk rushing to the topic to oppose it. And nothing is proposing any change to how it is now for you. Seriously, pathetic.

Ragnork · January 2020

albertberku wrote: »

Oh my god, i posted this idea and PvE folk rushing to the topic to oppose it. And nothing is proposing any change to how it is now for you. Seriously, pathetic.

Then go play another game - seriously if this is not for then find the game you want - why change this into something else?

Kamatsu · January 2020

Ragnork wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Oh my god, i posted this idea and PvE folk rushing to the topic to oppose it. And nothing is proposing any change to how it is now for you. Seriously, pathetic.

Then go play another game - seriously if this is not for then find the game you want - why change this into something else?

Because those other PvP focused games have players who are prepared to, and the ability/knowledge/skill/etc to, PvP same level players. You'll generally find those who are pushing for open-world PvP in either primarily PvE games or area's of games are looking to gank/grief PvE players who do not want to PvP, and possibly don't have the skills/ability/knowledge/etc of how to deal with PvP players.

So no they won't go to these other games - because then they'd have to fight ppl who could & would fight back. They want the easy kills. It's what the majority of open-world PvP ends up being - high level players, or groups of players, ganking low-level or solo players for the easy kills... while running away from equal-level players/groups.

As for the whole "it's just a toggle" - as many, many MMO's have found out... a toggle can be exploited and thus force PvE players to be flagged for PvP when they didn't want to be. It's why both SW:TOR & WoW have had to separate PvP & PvE flagged people into different instances - without this, there was an endless stream of complaints by primarily PvE players who were forced into PvP by player(s) doing something which forced their flag to change.

Both Blizzard & Bioware tried to fix/resolve/void the various ways that were used to foce flagg PvE players... and the only way they could do so with 100% effectiveness was to split the instances so the moment you flagged for PvP, you only ever saw other PvP flagged people.

So if you want open-world PvE... try pushing for separate PvP server instead. You'd get more traction and support for that than you would by trying to push for an exploitable PvP toggle.

Paralyse · January 2020

I've been playing WoW since 2008 and ESO since 2014.

A long time before that, I played a game called The Realm Online, which had free-for-all PvP for awhile (until patch 3.1.)

Essentially, you could "jump" any other player and if you killed them, items would drop from their corpse, which you could loot; worse, any mobs nearby could also loot your corpse, and you lost both experience and levels when you died!

A small group of players including myself used to hang outside the eastern gate of Leinster -- the starting city for all new players at the time -- and as soon as they dared to venture out of the town gates.. BAM! Instant ganking.

We did try to avoid repeat ganking or corpse farming though. Usually after we jumped you, you could come back, get your corpse and carry on about your business. Often times if someone was truly upset (which was rare!) we'd even give them gold, mana crystals, orbs, or gear, and several of us made even more friends that way and they ended up becoming PvP too!

Needless to say, game design has changed since then!!!

In WoW I have always played on PvP servers prior to the war mode system, and did my fair share of both ganking and being ganked/corpse farmed in the open world.

WoW's current "war mode" system is an interesting solution. Players can choose to enable War Mode, which grants 25-50% increased Honor gains in the open world and in arenas/battlegrounds (similar to Alliance Points) along with 25% bonuses to experience gained and currency rewards from completing overland quests. However, enabling War Mode means you are vulnerable to attack from other players. Only players who have chosen to participate in War Mode are phased with you, so you can't kill or be killed by those players who have opted out. It also opens up access to lots of PvP-based quests with unique rewards, collectibles, titles, mounts, and raid-level gear.

You can turn War Mode off at any time (from any city) and turn it on if you are in your faction's capital city. This way, the players who want to participate in open world PvP can do so without interfering with the game play of those who do not, and it does not require the previous effort of maintaining a "PvP" and "PvE" server.

I have been to Cyrodiil once or twice. I found it to be nearly unplayable on my older PC -- I was getting like 3-5 FPS, and 700-1000 ms lag vs my usual sub 50ms lag. It seemed to be marginally better in delves and away from actual combat, but trying to do anything in combat was useless (imagine hitting a button and 3 seconds later it finally casts, but you're already dead.)

I am pretty sure that adding open world PvP to ESO could be done (with a War Mode type system) but from what I have seen in Cyrodiil the lag and FPS drops would absolutely destroy gameplay for many folks.

If ZOS could find a way to fix the lag, I'm still not sure how much of ESO's player base would be willing to open their experience up to being player-killed, nor what sort of rewards ZOS would have to throw at them to get them to participate.

PvP in the open world CAN be fun and interesting, but unfortunately, many players choose only to do it out of spite and a sick pleasure in ruining peoples' gameplay experience, rather than as an RP act (as an assassin or bandit) or out of a desire to prove yourself among equals.

doomette · January 2020

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

For long-term playability of the game? I think that’s more important than immersion and faction fanaticism/tribalism.

Realism should be first. All the lore and realty of the game process is a joke atm. One Tamriel, dragons in Elsweyr, no friendly fire. What next? Mаchineguns in the crownstore?

Listen, I don’t want machine guns in the Crown Store either (hell, pretty much got turned off from WoW after they introduced motorcycles...) but that is a rather silly jump to make. One Tamriel saved this game, and getting rid of it now would probably mean the death of ESO. Screwing over tons and tons of people’s gameplay for the sake of your immersion is selfish.

Sailor_Palutena · January 2020

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Same idea like in GTA Online: Passive mode, active mode. Passive mode is same as now.

If you are in active mode you can engage in combat with others that are in active mode, too.

Because almost every form of "open-world PVP" in a PVE centric game has failed in horrifyingly bad ways?
Because its not as simple as "enable pvp = true"
Because statistically, it is one of the least popular forms of PVP in games with extremely low usage rates?

WoW would like to have a word with you. The most popular MMO of all time and its most popular servers are World PvP.

WoW is a walking corpse too stubborn to die already.

O_LYKOS · January 2020

Like in WoW you can choose to have war mode on or off

Hapexamendios · January 2020

Now way no how. I stay out of Cyrodil to avoid PvP. Don't want it everywhere.

FierceSam · January 2020

PvP is a minority sport in ESO. Cyrodiil is largely empty and there seem to be at most 3 campaigns going on, most of which are vacant. BGs will be a mess until ZOS can work out a vaguely competent group finder.

Almost no one plays it, but those few who do play it a lot.

Bearing in mind the stink that gets raised every time PvE is included in PvP events, the idea of extending PvP into PvE seems to be little more than trolling by the same people who want to Make Overland Harder.

I’m not sure their “Why can’t I ruin your game if I want” logic holds much water though.

Ysbriel · January 2020

Invite people to duel, that is your active/passive switch

Olauron · January 2020

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

Alliance is not a brand burned on a forehead of a character. An AD elf looks exactly the same as a DC elf. It is not like you have a passport in Tamriel and need visa to visit another country.

Hallothiel · January 2020

This AGAIN?

What would be the benefit of having all overland open world pvp in ESO? Are you expecting to be able to loot corpses & get their hard won items? Or what?

What would be the point? Just to show how fantastic & fabulous a player you were because you have killed another player?

I love pvp. IN CYRODIIL. Makes sense there. (There’s a war going on).

ESO is, as others have pointed out, an RPG MMO - and the storyline & quests have always been more important. I think having overland pvp would be an incredibly foolish move & not improve the game at all.

If you wish to play a game with open world pvp, there are games out there that fulfil that requirement - go and play them, and stop trying to make all games the same.

And to the op, who came back and posted about pve players coming on this thread & whining - no. You expressed an opinion and suggested an idea; others disagreed with you and explained why they did - that is what a discussion is, and this one has been relatively civil!

Nurable · January 2020

This would kill off the game.

People enjoy immersive story content. They don't want huge fights happening everywhere and salty comments filling up zone chat.

PvPers have a huge zone for PvP and are the reason we get nerf after nerf after nerf. Please leave the rest of the game alone.

JKorr · January 2020

albertberku wrote: »

Oh my god, i posted this idea and PvE folk rushing to the topic to oppose it. And nothing is proposing any change to how it is now for you. Seriously, pathetic.

Perhaps because the pve folks rushing to the topic to oppose it is because they like the game [basically] the way it currently is? Seriously, the same reasoning applies to the pvp people who want the entire game changed to suit their preferences.

JKorr · January 2020

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

For long-term playability of the game? I think that’s more important than immersion and faction fanaticism/tribalism.

Realism should be first. All the lore and realty of the game process is a joke atm. One Tamriel, dragons in Elsweyr, no friendly fire. What next? Mаchineguns in the crownstore?

Originally the zones were faction locked. Your AD character couldn't go to any other faction zones, only Cyrodiil. Then people started complaining they didn't want to constantly make new alts for each faction and have to grind achievements for every character. The devs listened, and came up with Cadwell's Silver and Gold: Meridia's offer to let you see what would have happened if you had landed in the other two factions. And that was okay with people for a short while. Then people started complaining they didn't want to be locked into the factions and rail-roaded into doing the quests in order. The devs listened, and came up with One Tamriel so everyone can do all the quests in any zone in any order. So you're having issues with the devs actually listening and giving players what they wanted.....m'kay then.

I'm not going to touch "realism" when the game has cat people and lizards with breasts, not to mention the whole fireball/lightning/ice blasts from sticks, fighters who can turn invisible, or breathe fire, or throw javalins made out of light. The dragons in Elsweyr aren't pulled from thin air, there is actually a story reason for them showing up. There is friendly fire; turn off the setting that keeps you from attacking innocents. If you're talking about friendly fire and other players, that's open world pvp and a whole different argument about forcing players who don't want to do that to do that, or do a lot of suffering because other players would constantly be having "friendly fire" incidents everywhere.

MajBludd · January 2020

I think this should be up to the ppl who pve, as anything to do with pvp should be up to the pvp'rs. So no open world pvp and no pve cyrodiil.

Helgi_Skotina · January 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

For long-term playability of the game? I think that’s more important than immersion and faction fanaticism/tribalism.

Realism should be first. All the lore and realty of the game process is a joke atm. One Tamriel, dragons in Elsweyr, no friendly fire. What next? Mаchineguns in the crownstore?

If you remove 1Tam, then you go back to the way it was before - where there was no "AD running through a DC land". Azura(?) was changing history so that when you were in DC lands, you were the DC Hero and when you were in AD lands, you were the AD Hero, etc. (Cadwell's Silver & Gold) This is why your "AD" character is killing DC soldiers in AD questing zones, then happily turns around and kills AD soldiers in DC zones. Whichever faction territory you were in, you were considered one of them.

That's the point, there should be no questing for AD players in DC zones and opposite. You can just run here, gank, kill everything what lives there, maybe even capture the cities and towns. But not run there like in peacetime.

ayu_fever · January 2020

the last thing ESO needs is more pvp. i would love it if pvp was scrapped entirely in this game.

all that will happen as a result of more pvp is tons more things getting nerfed because of pvp whiners.

pve cant have nice things because of pvp.

if you want proper pvp, go play a pvp game like fortnite or call of duty.

the elder scrolls is a pve paradise, not a cesspool of pvp toxicity thats all about the K/D.

#PVEplayersmatter

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2020

Well, here is what would happen:

Helgi_Skotina · January 2020

JKorr wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

It will be horrible. Pls remove 1 Tamriel and let us kill any members of opposing alliances. How in hell can an AD run through a DC land without gettin killed?

For long-term playability of the game? I think that’s more important than immersion and faction fanaticism/tribalism.

Realism should be first. All the lore and realty of the game process is a joke atm. One Tamriel, dragons in Elsweyr, no friendly fire. What next? Mаchineguns in the crownstore?

Originally the zones were faction locked. Your AD character couldn't go to any other faction zones, only Cyrodiil. Then people started complaining they didn't want to constantly make new alts for each faction and have to grind achievements for every character. The devs listened, and came up with Cadwell's Silver and Gold: Meridia's offer to let you see what would have happened if you had landed in the other two factions. And that was okay with people for a short while. Then people started complaining they didn't want to be locked into the factions and rail-roaded into doing the quests in order. The devs listened, and came up with One Tamriel so everyone can do all the quests in any zone in any order. So you're having issues with the devs actually listening and giving players what they wanted.....m'kay then.

I'm not going to touch "realism" when the game has cat people and lizards with breasts, not to mention the whole fireball/lightning/ice blasts from sticks, fighters who can turn invisible, or breathe fire, or throw javalins made out of light. The dragons in Elsweyr aren't pulled from thin air, there is actually a story reason for them showing up. There is friendly fire; turn off the setting that keeps you from attacking innocents. If you're talking about friendly fire and other players, that's open world pvp and a whole different argument about forcing players who don't want to do that to do that, or do a lot of suffering because other players would constantly be having "friendly fire" incidents everywhere.

An attacker never asks the victim. He just attacks. Fireballs, cats etc - OK, just another world. What not realistic is that different races dont genocyde others - thats's simply darwinis - there can be only 1 dominant species. But OK, maybe they came to an agreement. But soldiers from different fracitons side by side in a city of a third faction? Come on. Then just finish all the war and say there is peace and tranquility. Because the 3 banners war and 1 Tamriel cannot exist inside 1 logic.