For the love of PVP, ZOS please nerf the Unkillable tank/2H Build Meta

JumpmanLane · December 2019

I fought a troll tank last night. I couldn’t kill the fool 1v1 and I KNOW I’m running damage. Spinner’s Elemental Succession. Lol. Flame Staff/ Ice Staff. (At Times I’ve back barred potentates, Resto and ice staff but don’t really need the Potentates-though I’m still testing stuff).

Anyways, the dude can’t stop for a minute to attack at all. Just turtling up a healing. I got 18k pen for craps sake. Both flame and frost Succession up. The fools running. I got RAT. He can’t get away but refuses to die.

Another dummy jumps in and we STILL can’t kill him. I got Ele Drain On him and just unloading on this fool like the target dummy he is. A third jumps in and he finally dies. Why bother? This fools just trolling. I was just curious to see what unkillable looked like.

In the end, it was a waste of time. That fool couldn’t kill anyone. Never made one offensive move. But that’s the secret and the trick. You CAN kill troll tanks if they do ANYTHING other than heal and apply buffs. Like ATTACK.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

ayu_fever wrote: »

in pve NO ONE wants to tank so lets just nerf all about tanks into oblivion and in pve lets all get 100% guaranteed fake tanks in dungeons and then come on forums and cry about that too!

ESO IS A PVE GAME!!!! DEAL WITH IT!!!

whiny pvp crybabies are why pve cant have nice things.

pvp and pvp players ARE NOT THE CONCERN AND FOCUS of this game.

you want to pvp? go play fortnite and call of duty.

Man, you are wrong. There are ton of low-cp people in PVP, who know nothing about TES lore, who don't want to touch PVE other then when it is required to farm some set/monster helm... they just came to ESO for PVP because some friend showed them those 1vX/duel/gank videos and they think that kind of PVP is fun and they want to learn how to do it themselves.
I'm not expert in MMORPGs, but I think not many of them have it all: active dynamic combat, huge amount of possible effective builds, lack of P2W, lack of excessive grind..

FlowOne · December 2019

L2P

SeaGtGruff · December 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

I fought a troll tank last night. I couldn’t kill the fool 1v1 and I KNOW I’m running damage. Spinner’s Elemental Succession. Lol. Flame Staff/ Ice Staff. (At Times I’ve back barred potentates, Resto and ice staff but don’t really need the Potentates-though I’m still testing stuff).

Anyways, the dude can’t stop for a minute to attack at all. Just turtling up a healing. I got 18k pen for craps sake. Both flame and frost Succession up. The fools running. I got RAT. He can’t get away but refuses to die.

Another dummy jumps in and we STILL can’t kill him. I got Ele Drain On him and just unloading on this fool like the target dummy he is. A third jumps in and he finally dies. Why bother? This fools just trolling. I was just curious to see what unkillable looked like.

In the end, it was a waste of time. That fool couldn’t kill anyone. Never made one offensive move. But that’s the secret and the trick. You CAN kill troll tanks if they do ANYTHING other than heal and apply buffs. Like ATTACK.

See, if-- according to what you said-- he never once attacked you, but just kept healing himself and trying to get away, then in my opinion he wasn't the troll, you were. I mean, what was he doing before you attacked him, just going about minding his own business? So you jumped on him just to see if you could kill him? And you couldn't, so you got somebody else to help you, but the two of you still couldn't kill him, nor would you let him get away? So you got a third person to help and the three of you were finally able to kill him as he kept not attacking you, healing himself, and trying to get away?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I get that it's PvP (or 3v1, anyway) and that this was in a PvP zone, so he was fair game.

But you call him a troll? That's just effing rude, considering that you were the one doing the trolling, and by your admission he was busy trying to heal himself and get away rather than trying to attack you or fight back at all.

Rikumaru · December 2019

You accuse good players of macroing because they can press several buttons in a few seconds? Are you serious? Are you seriously accusing players of macroing just because they can press a few buttons per second? Because if so, have you ever considered that maybe, MAYBE the issue lies with you and not the game.

Secondly while the tank meta is certainly a problem you don't need heavy armor to perform well, there are builds which work amazingly in every single armor type.

nk125x wrote: »

BomblePants wrote: »

/facepalm.... Tank takes longer than 10 seconds to kill, call for nerfs and tag Zos team due to extreme seriousness of issue.....

10 people for over 10 mins - If that is good PvP obviously you are one of those tanky builds playing "catch me if you can" in towers

And your obviously one of those players who run down solo / small scalers with 50 man groups. I'm sure that qualifies as "good" PvP.

Such bitterness and jealousy about players who are able to outplay you and your massive group. It's people like you who have caused the countless nerfs targeted towards solo / small scale which is the reason PvP is in the state it is in today. First people complained about themselves and their groups being bursted in seconds, ZOS responds by increasing the TTK and good players adapt by becoming more tanky.

Then same players complain about how they cant run down solo / small scalers with their group because they won't die. What are you gonna target next, healing? Breaking free from CC? Mobility?

eovogtb16_ESO · December 2019

EIGHTS wrote: »

Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

This is exactly what someone who has zero idea what animation canceling actually is, would say. Even without animation canceling you will still be able to use the same number of skills due to global cooldown. The only animations that are being canceled in this game are light attacks. Just because you don't understand how to properly play a game or it's mechanics doesn't mean you should ask to Nerf the people who actually do.

eso_lags · December 2019

nk125x wrote: »

Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭

eso_lags · December 2019

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

EIGHTS wrote: »

Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

This is exactly what someone who has zero idea what animation canceling actually is, would say. Even without animation canceling you will still be able to use the same number of skills due to global cooldown. The only animations that are being canceled in this game are light attacks. Just because you don't understand how to properly play a game or it's mechanics doesn't mean you should ask to Nerf the people who actually do.

This is the problem with this game now and its 100% zenimax's fault. They just keep dumbing this down every update, while never fixing performance, so these groups of button mashers think they actually know how to play. Until they run into someone who actually knows how to play. But dont try to get better, just complain and cry on the forums.

And no matter how much you argue with these people they never learn. Everyone wanted to say dswing was broken when zos decided to nerf it for no reason, but dont worry now it will be balanced because zos said so. Unfortunately for them everyone just hits harder now. Who could have seen that coming. And zos will keep making bad choices because of people who dont know how to play, sadly it seems thats who they listen to. Just like with animation canceling, ultimate's were just the start. Why get better when you can just cry about it and get your way?

Cirantille · December 2019

What animation cancelling?
I consider myself lucky if I can weapon swap in Cyrodiil at peak times

Approach 10 players and see the speshul effect of lagging.
Also the nickname of the user above is awesome

Kadoin · December 2019

Cirantille wrote: »

What animation cancelling?
I consider myself lucky if I can weapon swap in Cyrodiil at peak times
Approach 10 players and see the speshul effect of lagging.
Also the nickname of the user above is awesome

Animation cancelling is what lets me kill any non-ultra tank with heavy and light attacks for the most part, no ult, class agnostic.

It's also responsible for global warming.

Adernath · December 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

...maybe, just maybe, those who called for nerf of these things back then were the tower guys?

TheValar85 · December 2019

Stop QQ for nerfs it effects PVE as well you selfish one.
And in PVE those hard to kill tanks are needed. if you ask something to pvp related ask ZOs to separate them from pve. Problem solved once and for all.

JumpmanLane · December 2019

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

I fought a troll tank last night. I couldn’t kill the fool 1v1 and I KNOW I’m running damage. Spinner’s Elemental Succession. Lol. Flame Staff/ Ice Staff. (At Times I’ve back barred potentates, Resto and ice staff but don’t really need the Potentates-though I’m still testing stuff).

Anyways, the dude can’t stop for a minute to attack at all. Just turtling up a healing. I got 18k pen for craps sake. Both flame and frost Succession up. The fools running. I got RAT. He can’t get away but refuses to die.

Another dummy jumps in and we STILL can’t kill him. I got Ele Drain On him and just unloading on this fool like the target dummy he is. A third jumps in and he finally dies. Why bother? This fools just trolling. I was just curious to see what unkillable looked like.

In the end, it was a waste of time. That fool couldn’t kill anyone. Never made one offensive move. But that’s the secret and the trick. You CAN kill troll tanks if they do ANYTHING other than heal and apply buffs. Like ATTACK.

See, if-- according to what you said-- he never once attacked you, but just kept healing himself and trying to get away, then in my opinion he wasn't the troll, you were. I mean, what was he doing before you attacked him, just going about minding his own business? So you jumped on him just to see if you could kill him? And you couldn't, so you got somebody else to help you, but the two of you still couldn't kill him, nor would you let him get away? So you got a third person to help and the three of you were finally able to kill him as he kept not attacking you, healing himself, and trying to get away?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I get that it's PvP (or 3v1, anyway) and that this was in a PvP zone, so he was fair game.

But you call him a troll? That's just effing rude, considering that you were the one doing the trolling, and by your admission he was busy trying to heal himself and get away rather than trying to attack you or fight back at all.

He was in a keep that had just flipped my color. Walking around the wall. I’m running Spinner’s Succession, flame staff/ice staff on MY MagDk. If you don’t know what THAT means, THAT’S damage AND pen.

If I couldn’t kill him in THAT with 18k pen he was a TROLL tank. Lol. I didn’t ask anybody to jump in. They just jumped in. So what. He was a troll tank. He knew what he was doing. He just didn’t think he could get killed doing it. Crutching on that crap lol.

JumpmanLane · December 2019

Cirantille wrote: »

What animation cancelling?
I consider myself lucky if I can weapon swap in Cyrodiil at peak times
Approach 10 players and see the speshul effect of lagging.
Also the nickname of the user above is awesome

EXACTLY.
As if animation canceling even WORKS in Cyro due to lag. You’re lucky if you can get skills to fire off at all lol.

StrandedMonkey · December 2019

please nerf fossilize, its the only stun of its kind

SteveCampsOut · December 2019

Nerf all Nerfherders!

JumpmanLane · December 2019

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

please nerf fossilize, its the only stun of its kind

They’ve nerfed Fossilize HOW MANY times. How bout you learn to break free and then dodge roll or something lol.

StrandedMonkey · December 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

please nerf fossilize, its the only stun of its kind

They’ve nerfed Fossilize HOW MANY times. How bout you learn to break free and then dodge roll or something lol.

if you can name 3 other skills that stuns first and immobilizes after breaking free, i wont complain about it anymore

take your time

JumpmanLane · December 2019

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

please nerf fossilize, its the only stun of its kind

They’ve nerfed Fossilize HOW MANY times. How bout you learn to break free and then dodge roll or something lol.

if you can name 3 other skills that stuns first and immobilizes after breaking free, i wont complain about it anymore

take your time

They increased the cost for ya. They shortened the range. You have immunity now after you’re up and out of it. You can run immovables. What ELSE ya want?

There’s plenty of counterplay no matter WHAT Fossilize does. Don’t. Be. A. Nerfling. Lol.

Being the only skill of its kind gives DK identity. Fossilize is not an I win button...unless you’re unwilling to actually PLAY the game. Do the things that counter it.

Hahaha! Duel Hugo, that fool you run with. His MagDk ain’t no count; but, STILL...it’s practice lmao.

Look I saw YOU a few minutes ago. You ain’t max cp. You ain’t 700 cp. YOU should NOT be in the forums asking for nerfs. You need to learn the game a lil bit more.

OhNoDaedra · December 2019

Say own sorcesers to use Negate ult to kill this troll guys, thats enought, they cant heal and cast -> they dead

Raudgrani · December 2019

No more nerfs. This has to end. What about actually BUFFING something, instead of making yet another build type useless? They have done it over and over again, and there's like a few - mainly group oriented - type of builds left to play.

And I'll share a secret with you. These "unkillable tanks" are probably quite good players. Obviously better than you. Now they decided to play a particular kind of build, that annoys the h**l out of you. Truth is, they would still be killing and dominating you, no matter what kind of build they ran - because they know their way around PVP. I sincerely doubt they were complete and utter s**t players before they picked up this build, and became über-strong tanks overnight, just because they picked up this particular build. If they nerf this type of build, they will just pick up something new for you to cry about - if they don't grow tired of the whole "nerf procedure", and quit the game altogether.

Blame the player, don't blame the game. Or whatever. Pick other enemies.

Lord_Hypnos · December 2019

nk125x wrote: »

Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

Funny how you keep revering to the real-world combat "system" in a, one might say even an extreme, fantasy world where there are flying lizards, talking cats and lizards, Elves and gods know what else of magical things... and pvp-combat consists of 90-95% of bunny-hopping, dodge rolls (in unrealistic, over the top heavy-armor) and where you also survive a full-on Ballista bolt/trebuchet rock on "your" body.

So please let a fantasy world be fantasy and do not pull real-world "problems" into this(?)

Also if someone doesn't die right away from your/ your grps 1st light attack that doesn't mean something has to be nerfed. Sometimes getting more damage/ effects on the target might also help. And no-one is making you chase them around. if you cant kill them let them be. Has worked for me just fine.

BlueRaven · December 2019

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

please nerf fossilize, its the only stun of its kind

They’ve nerfed Fossilize HOW MANY times. How bout you learn to break free and then dodge roll or something lol.

if you can name 3 other skills that stuns first and immobilizes after breaking free, i wont complain about it anymore

take your time

“It is unique, therefore it must be destroyed!”

This sounds like the mantra of the current combat team.

central_scrutinizer · December 2019

If anything was to change for this specific purpose I'd rather antiheal or ideally new forms of cc then taking anything away
but really, you can't come close to building the hilariously cancerous troll tank builds we used to be able to make before the templar nerfs (among many others), this isn't really a big deal and generally is part of how pvp works here.

Personally I like fighting these kinds of builds when I am not going for small scale (and then I just ignore them or play around if there's time to waste), I think of them as zerg surfers and I like the finality of mopping them up after their force has been routed.
Some of them lead attacks too, somebody has to be the first into the breach and if you're wasting your time hitting them instead of the actual danger rushing along behind them, that's them doing their job that they've built for.
In my opinion Cyro specifically would be a worse place without people being able to build solid tanks.

You're going to run into a lot of people who you can't kill for various reasons, asking for help should usually be your first response if you can't think of/achieve anything better at the time.

Jack-0 · December 2019

You can’t really use “in real life...” as a justification for what you’re asking for in a fantasy game, otherwise..in real life, people can’t cast spells so they should be removed from the game entirely. In real life, it would take a lot longer than a minute to repair some broken keep walls and doors, it should take 3 weeks of heavy labour! In real life, horses don’t appear from nowhere and disappear when you dismount them, so horses ought to follow you around in game like pets!

JumpmanLane · December 2019

OhNoDaedra wrote: »

Say own sorcesers to use Negate ult to kill this troll guys, thats enought, they cant heal and cast -> they dead

Somebody used negate on your Google Translator 😂

TheFM · December 2019

Cirantille wrote: »

What animation cancelling?
I consider myself lucky if I can weapon swap in Cyrodiil at peak times
Approach 10 players and see the speshul effect of lagging.
Also the nickname of the user above is awesome

Yeah im lucky if i can weave without my rotations just slowing down to a snails pace

notvenousdrake · December 2019

Lmao L2p fr it’s tragic how people keep saying this

Joy_Division · December 2019

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

Maybe you should take your own advice here. It's a myth that armor was clunky, slow, and restrictive. It was possible to even perform feats like cartwheels and jumping on a horse in plate armor.

And if you've ever picked up a "2H" (not really a historical category but whatever), you would know it was fluid weapon that could be swung without straining the wielder. They were usually about 3 -4 pounds; or are you trying to say the 5 pound dumbbells I see the older women at my gym using are so physically taxing that the devs have to go and nerf a fantasy game because of your lack of historical knowledge?

As far "unkillable tanks" go, if you don;t like them maybe you should have thought about what cyrodiil might look like before you came onto these forums complaining dying to "macro bursts." Somehow these "tanks" can kill you, but you can't kill them. The devs aren't going to be able to fix that situation for you.

karekiz · December 2019

Remove CP PvP from Cyrodil.