For the love of PVP, ZOS please nerf the Unkillable tank/2H Build Meta

Karmanorway

I love threads like these 😂 imagine If this was a movie:

10 high school bullies tries to beat up the new guy, little did they know he had black belt and years of experience in karate.

After a Long and intense fight he finally beat the living daylight out of this pack of sheep.

The 10 sheep run off to the schools headmaster crying and demanding that all kinds of martial arts should be forbidden in the school grounds.

In order to keep the schools good reputation the headmaster decides that 1 displeased student is better then 10.

And thus the new rule was applied, and the New kid got beaten up by the 10 sheep everyday until he decided to quit the school for good.

The end.

Advice: dont run in a big group Vs 1 If you cant handle that he treats u just like that, a big group. Fight with honor for christs sake.

Btw, whats this dudes @name? I would really like his autograph and give him a tap on the shoulder. Sharing 1vsX stories with a beer 🍻

Xzysts

@nk125x If 2h gets nerfed what are we supposed to use???? Ask first if other things need to be buffed, not everything needs a nerf. 2h is not Overpowered, considering they just took away the hardest ability to land on your opponents stun and 16% of its damage?? come on

Xzysts

@TheFM Yes, that is true about the DoTs vs Burst. But with DoTs you literally do nothing but apply it and wait for them to die. That is not fun nor is it skillful...

Xzysts

@nk125x also, healing doesnt need to be nerfed, damage needs to be buffed.... and the other two options you stated about heavy armor are not ideal. Just because they use a certain type of armor they cant move nor can they gap close??? Why should their be a negative to wearing Heavy? Each armor type has an indirect negative but has its positives. Heavy armor users do not gain the bonuses that medium and light give so I dont see why wearing Heavy should give you negative effects. Also a 2h weapon would not take seconds to swing nor should you be penalized for using a certain weapon skill line. Bad ideas to me, just make the game more broken. How about instead of NERFING heavy, we boost Medium and Light a little more?

nk125x

Bloodraven187 wrote: »

nk125x wrote: »

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Ok here are a few counters to your 'suggestions'

For Heavy armor:
1: tanks, and everyone for that matter, relies on resistances in all combat, especially PVE endgame. Nerfing resistances like you suggest will make end game literally impossible to survive much less clear. So, in a word, NO.
2: Show me what offensive passives you see in heavy armor, because there aren't any. Sustain, yes. Offense, not a one.
3: Properly designed and fitted full plate allows you to do somersaults in, I've seen it done. If you can't move in armor then it becomes useless. So before suggesting someone else do something you might want to do it yourself.

For 2H weapons:
1: I've actually used them myself in real life. You're wrong. Again, if the movement is too slow it a: has no damage behind it, and b: is too easy to avoid, thereby making it useless.
2: There is only 1 channeled ability in the tree, so what would be the point? You can be interrupted or cc'd during the heavy swing as it is.

Generals changes:
1: That goes back to affecting PVE. And the healing you are getting is not coming from either the 2-hand or heavy armor trees at all. The minuscule amount you get from heavy armor is in the constitution passive only, and that is only a % of base passive healing, nothing active. Basically making tanks able to recover hp faster since they have so much more of it.

And before you go and say the stereotypical 'just make things work differently in pvp and pve' are you skilled, qualified and have time enough for writing an entirely new set of combat mechanics code yourself? If not then don't waste your breath. Because that is what it would take. And if you think the game has performance issues now imagine how much more nightmarish it would be with 2 separate sets of code running at the same time.

A lot of heavy haves passives - Affliction - 2nd one increases weapon damage

JumpmanLane

Run damage! Run pen! Don’t chase. Fight them in the open and drop them.

Only Troll tanks are unkillable and THEY can’t kill you. It truly is a l2p issue. Begging for nerfs won’t help. Nerfs to bleeds, oblivion damage, DOTS, etc are why you’re here in the first place.

Fools crutching on tank builds to “1vX” inexperienced players are all the rage. GET some experience. GET some damage. GET some pen. Kill em tbag em. Dance on their heads! Lol.

nk125x

Xzysts wrote: »

@nk125x If 2h gets nerfed what are we supposed to use???? Ask first if other things need to be buffed, not everything needs a nerf. 2h is not Overpowered, considering they just took away the hardest ability to land on your opponents stun and 16% of its damage?? come on

Howabout duel wield, etc.... The fact that you and all stam users are using 2H weapons means they aint balanced with other weapons

Karmanorway

nk125x wrote: »

Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

Lets say i agree with these changes u suggest, IF:

*Your weapon damage is increased by 100 for each player you are outnumbered by

*your hp stam and mag is increased by 2k for each player u are outnumbered by

* stam mag hp regen is increased by 100 for each player you are outnumbered by

* Your phys/spell/crit resist is increased by 1k for every player u are outnumbered by

All this is double If the group has a healer.

Would this be fair enough for you and your group? If your answer is No then i guess what you really are saying with your post is that you just want more disadvantages for this 1 guy 10 ppl somehow dont know how to kill so u wont feel humiliated again.

Which means in short that you have a L2P issue.

Accept that some ppl is more experienced and better then you, that you are going to die a lot, that you have some pvp stuff you need to improve, skip the YouTube builds and experiment with your own builds and setups. Then you have my word that you are going to get a wonderful pvp career and experience.

D0PAMINE

You can be tanky in light and medium too

Karmanorway

nk125x wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

@nk125x If 2h gets nerfed what are we supposed to use???? Ask first if other things need to be buffed, not everything needs a nerf. 2h is not Overpowered, considering they just took away the hardest ability to land on your opponents stun and 16% of its damage?? come on

Howabout duel wield, etc.... The fact that you and all stam users are using 2H weapons means they aint balanced with other weapons

For some stamclasses the only available burst heal is from 2H skill line. Also dw dont really have any good burst options, they are more dot and aoe focused. Sword and shield is for tanking and debuffs, then there is bow that is all ranged.. Not so handy when u have a close combat dude in your face. In short we dont use 2h because its OP, we use it because its the only functioning skill line for close combat.

Xzysts

nk125x wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

@nk125x If 2h gets nerfed what are we supposed to use???? Ask first if other things need to be buffed, not everything needs a nerf. 2h is not Overpowered, considering they just took away the hardest ability to land on your opponents stun and 16% of its damage?? come on

Howabout duel wield, etc.... The fact that you and all stam users are using 2H weapons means they aint balanced with other weapons

Yea , but is it that 2h is overpowered or is DW underpowered? Ive used both, DW takes more stam and deals less damage. 2h does not need a nerf, DW just needs to be upgraded to be on the same level. DW sucks in PvP

D0PAMINE

Xzysts wrote: »

nk125x wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

@nk125x If 2h gets nerfed what are we supposed to use???? Ask first if other things need to be buffed, not everything needs a nerf. 2h is not Overpowered, considering they just took away the hardest ability to land on your opponents stun and 16% of its damage?? come on

Howabout duel wield, etc.... The fact that you and all stam users are using 2H weapons means they aint balanced with other weapons

Yea , but is it that 2h is overpowered or is DW underpowered? Ive used both, DW takes more stam and deals less damage. 2h does not need a nerf, DW just needs to be upgraded to be on the same level. DW sucks in PvP

DW is clunky if using Rapid strikes/Bloodthirst. Blade Cloak is costly but its ok. Rend is not a spammable so that leaves daggers which, depending on playstyle can be alright. Spin 2 Win seems ok. 2H has some power that makes it satisfying. DW could use some love I'd say.

TheFM

Xzysts wrote: »

@TheFM Yes, that is true about the DoTs vs Burst. But with DoTs you literally do nothing but apply it and wait for them to die. That is not fun nor is it skillful...

It is a different type of skill, you apply your dots then you have to survive, and if you build wrong your dots will do squat, or you wont be able to enough damage for it to be worth it if you dont stay alive, its a balancing act. I have never seen a community be so up in arms about the dot playstyle as in this game anywhere. In mmos there has ALWAYS been dot builds, and burst builds, and apparently dot is taboo and burst is holy in this game.

Xzysts

TheFM wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

@TheFM Yes, that is true about the DoTs vs Burst. But with DoTs you literally do nothing but apply it and wait for them to die. That is not fun nor is it skillful...

It is a different type of skill, you apply your dots then you have to survive, and if you build wrong your dots will do squat, or you wont be able to enough damage for it to be worth it if you dont stay alive, its a balancing act. I have never seen a community be so up in arms about the dot playstyle as in this game anywhere. In mmos there has ALWAYS been dot builds, and burst builds, and apparently dot is taboo and burst is holy in this game.

because I think the DoT builds arent nearly as skilled, plus nobody really had the ability to purify or heal through them other than select classes? you can heal through, dodge roll, and/or block burst? cant dodge roll a bleed effect, flame DoT you name it that has already been applied to you. I dont know burst requires timed skill and consistent attacking. DoTs kinda just force them onto Defense the whole time and like I said, you cant get those off of you etc

CompM4s

A huge l2p issue. They are “tanky” because they are using line of sight. You and others are falling into their kite build, draining your stam, so when they retaliate you cant recover. It is literally your fault you died, not zos.

Mr_Walker

nk125x wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

nk125x wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

These builds literally can ignore stuns.

Interrupting their healing is not a stun.

As in my example above

"Last night I was in a raid (all players long time pvp'ers) we took a yellow keep and literally we spent 15 minutes killing 2 reds who's sneaked in, with a sole purpose to play ring a ring of roses in one of the corner towers. Firstly I would like to know what fun they got out of it. I can only assume they are spotty teenagers with a complex about annoying as many people as possible. They def didn't get much AP out of it."

We were doing everything - Interrupts/fears/stuns all were ignored.

I play a lot with randos, and I've never met anyone who wanted to run one of these builds. They seem quite boring.

Shantu

The real question here is why would 10+ players waste over 5 minutes of their time trying to kill 1 tanky build? Sounds about as much fun as beating your head against the wall.

Mr_Walker

Shantu wrote: »

The real question here is why would 10+ players waste over 5 minutes of their time trying to kill 1 tanky build? Sounds about as much fun as beating your head against the wall.

It's actually less fun. Can't imagine what the other side gets out of it. I've done the tower running thing for a couple of minutes, and then invited people to kill me. Even sheathed my weapons to make sure they knew I was letting them kill me. BORING!

Marcus684

TequilaFire wrote: »

You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

So much this. I can’t remember how many 1vX tower humpers I’ve foiled with a simple hard CC/snare + defile. The way these LOSers take advantage of the broken targeting system, especially when it’s laggy, is borderline exploiting to me.

Moonsorrow

nk125x wrote: »

Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

I think you need some good old learning to play with a sprinkle of git gud on the side. This is not to sound rude, but.. the only people that cannot kill target like that AND get killed by it are well, not so experienced. Even a 2 experienced kills 1 with such "meta" build as you say if they are a race runner type.. with 1 it takes longer, but doable still.

And hi, i run at towers by the way. The fact that i kill groups and not die easily does not come from things you want nerfed, those nerfs would just make groups like you describe die even faster - nerfs would hurt them more than me. But some cannot see the big picture. Also there is something common on those groups, they are not that good players.

I mitigate mainly with movement/LoS/Active mitigations, some healing yes but trust me, not much and i sort of wish you get your nerf demand through and see you all just melt faster and hear my whisper in your head saying "i told you so".

Without strong melee brawler builds that work with proper movement.. this game would be just ranged projectile spamming and the one who hits first would always win with more numbers. Sounds exciting? NOT.

Ranged has lots of benefits over melee brawlers, so.. if you go or stay in melee brawlers "house" (be it a tower or any other closed space) then you deserve to be smashed. Out in the open tanky brawlers melt with pressure when cannot LoS.

So what next, you demand all LoS nerfed so take off towers, trees, boxes, stairs? Seriously..

Tanky brawlers are needed to balance out hard hitting ranged specs. How can this concept be so hard to understand to some? ZOS understands it. For them it is just difficult task due to pve and pvp at same time and having to deal with entitled crying from snowflake players who cannot accept defeats and cannot bother to git gud also.

And if you cannot on current burst meta take down some tanky brawler even with a group, as said, your group has problems instead of the game.

CPT_CAPSLOCK

Oh another thread about macros aka lag

Moonsorrow

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I assume most people commenting here it is a L2P issue, since tanks shouldn't be easy to kill, didn't read more than the title.

OP is refering to those with high sustain, slippery AF, tower/rock/tree circlers, ultra hardcore parcour pros with a *** load of burst dmg. Those are not tank builds. And i totaly understand the frustration of OP here, since all those players do is run away, until they got their ulti ready, then pull off their burst combo, and again run around the rock.

@nk125x as i already mentioned, those are not tank builds. They have sustain and high damage. Mostly stam chars. Their Nr.1 defence is to block the line of sight so you can't use a skill on them. Combined with dodge rolling and HoT (vigor). If you don't want to ignore them completely, (which is a good option) the best way to counter this playstile is to get in open field.

If you chase such a player don't waste all your resources in atempt to cause damage (place your DoTs on them and let them run). Don't run, spare your stamina. Always keep up your defence and be prepaired for his approach (mostly the moment you come up the stairs, in a smal gap between rocks ect). Avoid getting stuned by blocking, outheal/ shield / block his damage. As soon as his aproach failed, counter him. Stun, dots, ulti, execute. (more or less)

No need to nerf a specific playstile, though i don't like them either.

Here have some footage of the curent PvP meta playstyle:

This is the best explanation. Heavy armor doesn't even really have anything to do with the phenomenon that OP is complaining about, although I can imagine that plenty of these guys are wearing it for various reasons.

What irritates me is that this annoying playstyle is so much more effective than anything a magicka build can do in light armor. There was a brief moment in ESO history when this build had a counter: DOTs! But then we all saw how that turned out...all the aggrieved tree huggers rushed to the forums and got the DOTs nerfed. Sigh.

I often play that style, parkour on towers and woodlands.. and i never complained about strong DoTs, in fact - i killed groups faster then with my own strong DoTs on the side too. Was faster to keep up pressure while i did LoS so my own strong DoTs worked then also.

Facts are, not-so-good-groups did die then and they do now. And they always will no matter what they nerf.. until learned to play.

Only one the random nerfs are hurting is themselves even more and PVE and for many there will be just even fewer choices on skills & setups.

Cyrodiil.. there are trolls at towers and Slaughterfish under the bridge, so watch your step young warriors - or you end up feeding them. -Moonsorrow

Sorbin

nk125x wrote: »

Bloodraven187 wrote: »

nk125x wrote: »

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Ok here are a few counters to your 'suggestions'

For Heavy armor:
1: tanks, and everyone for that matter, relies on resistances in all combat, especially PVE endgame. Nerfing resistances like you suggest will make end game literally impossible to survive much less clear. So, in a word, NO.
2: Show me what offensive passives you see in heavy armor, because there aren't any. Sustain, yes. Offense, not a one.
3: Properly designed and fitted full plate allows you to do somersaults in, I've seen it done. If you can't move in armor then it becomes useless. So before suggesting someone else do something you might want to do it yourself.

For 2H weapons:
1: I've actually used them myself in real life. You're wrong. Again, if the movement is too slow it a: has no damage behind it, and b: is too easy to avoid, thereby making it useless.
2: There is only 1 channeled ability in the tree, so what would be the point? You can be interrupted or cc'd during the heavy swing as it is.

Generals changes:
1: That goes back to affecting PVE. And the healing you are getting is not coming from either the 2-hand or heavy armor trees at all. The minuscule amount you get from heavy armor is in the constitution passive only, and that is only a % of base passive healing, nothing active. Basically making tanks able to recover hp faster since they have so much more of it.

And before you go and say the stereotypical 'just make things work differently in pvp and pve' are you skilled, qualified and have time enough for writing an entirely new set of combat mechanics code yourself? If not then don't waste your breath. Because that is what it would take. And if you think the game has performance issues now imagine how much more nightmarish it would be with 2 separate sets of code running at the same time.

A lot of heavy haves passives - Affliction - 2nd one increases weapon damage

That's not a passive, that's a set bonus. The only passive heavy ever had that boosted damage was Wrath and it's been gone for a loooong time. The fact that you think heavy armor is what's keeping these players alive proves this is a L2P issue. And LOL Affliction.

pieratsos

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

Short sighted is the perfect description I would use for ur approach that bleeds and oblivion dmg counter the tank meta. And an approach like urs is most definitely a part of that broken combat ecosystem.

merevie

A few of these guys a day vs all of the enemy in a mindless zerg of hundreds spamming dots?

Meh. Let them camp that random resource tower.

DLM

Sorry for being late to the party. But yes, let's ruin PvE even more.

Nyladreas

DLM wrote: »

Sorry for being late to the party. But yes, let's ruin PvE even more.

There are easier and quicker ways to nerf PvP tanks without touching PvE in the slightest.

Many easier ways. People just don't think before suggestions.

You PvE players really wouldn't worry about it.

FakeZavos

Marcus684 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

So much this. I can’t remember how many 1vX tower humpers I’ve foiled with a simple hard CC/snare + defile. The way these LOSers take advantage of the broken targeting system, especially when it’s laggy, is borderline exploiting to me.

Using terrain in an openworld game is "borderline exploiting" now. This thread cant get any better, can it?

FakeZavos

pieratsos wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

Short sighted is the perfect description I would use for ur approach that bleeds and oblivion dmg counter the tank meta. And an approach like urs is most definitely a part of that broken combat ecosystem.

But he is right...

Olupajmibanan

You can't just change heavy armor passives without any compensation. Remember that ZoS stubbornly refuses to balance PvE and PvP separately, so by changes to heavy armor passives you would need to give PvE tanks something in return. For example, taking away Constitution passive and replacing it with some defensive bs would be great change for PvP but will cripple PvE tanks and what's worse, it would have much greater impact on non-DK tanks.

PvP and PvE are two worlds of EQUAL IMPORTANCE. ZoS refuses to balance them separately and doesn't seem to change it's opinion anytime soon. We must deal with it, therefore, under these circumstances I (and many others) will never support an idea that is focused one world but will negatively impact the second.