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For the love of PVP, ZOS please nerf the Unkillable tank/2H Build Meta

  • Zer0_CooL
    Zer0_CooL
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    nk125x wrote: »
    Firstly I would like to know what fun they got out of it.

    Youtube mentality connotes that if you run around a rock in mistform as long as possible without getting killed, , you're suposed to be a 1vx pro. Which is used to compensate all sorts of deficits.
  • nk125x
    nk125x
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    Well maybe you should just ignore them, they will get bored and move on.
    They accomplished their objective to aggro and keep your group busy from doing anything else.

    I agree in towers at resources. But you can't leave them in keeps.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    nk125x wrote: »
    You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

    These builds literally can ignore stuns.

    You can't totally ignore stuns other then by spamming unstoppable brute which applies very severe unpurgeable snare on you.

    But of course player can combine cc-immunity pots with LOS and with mist and it might look like he is cc-immune 100% of the time, but he is not.

    And you claim that your group is long time PVP-ers. If you are in organized raid, it means you have voice connection. Send several (3-4, not 20) high dps players to kill your opponents with coordinated burst. Really, I can understand such nerf requests from solo players new to PVP, but when organized ball group wants to nerf everything other then PvDoor and chaotic XvX... no. Let everyone play their own game.

    Of course there are some cheezy extremely tanky builds utilizing pariah, vampire, warden/templar abilities so group of 3-4 people can be literally immortal for some amount of time... but then you may ask ZOS for mitigation cap and not to nerf heavy and 2H. 2H has nothing to do with this tankiness at all, it is simply most effective damage skill line at the moment.
  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    nk125x wrote: »
    Well maybe you should just ignore them, they will get bored and move on.
    They accomplished their objective to aggro and keep your group busy from doing anything else.

    I agree in towers at resources. But you can't leave them in keeps.

    Sure you can. There will always be people who simply must chase, it doesn't have to be you. If they try to take the keep, I'm sure eventually they'll get sufficiently mobbed and zerged down
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
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    Zer0_CooL wrote: »
    I assume most people commenting here it is a L2P issue, since tanks shouldn't be easy to kill, didn't read more than the title.

    OP is refering to those with high sustain, slippery AF, tower/rock/tree circlers, ultra hardcore parcour pros with a *** load of burst dmg. Those are not tank builds. And i totaly understand the frustration of OP here, since all those players do is run away, until they got their ulti ready, then pull off their burst combo, and again run around the rock.

    @nk125x as i already mentioned, those are not tank builds. They have sustain and high damage. Mostly stam chars. Their Nr.1 defence is to block the line of sight so you can't use a skill on them. Combined with dodge rolling and HoT (vigor). If you don't want to ignore them completely, (which is a good option) the best way to counter this playstile is to get in open field.

    If you chase such a player don't waste all your resources in atempt to cause damage (place your DoTs on them and let them run). Don't run, spare your stamina. Always keep up your defence and be prepaired for his approach (mostly the moment you come up the stairs, in a smal gap between rocks ect). Avoid getting stuned by blocking, outheal/ shield / block his damage. As soon as his aproach failed, counter him. Stun, dots, ulti, execute. (more or less)

    No need to nerf a specific playstile, though i don't like them either.

    Here have some footage of the curent PvP meta playstyle:

    3b1ae908d7c5d255878c05e482a0f7b6.gif



    This is the best explanation. Heavy armor doesn't even really have anything to do with the phenomenon that OP is complaining about, although I can imagine that plenty of these guys are wearing it for various reasons.

    What irritates me is that this annoying playstyle is so much more effective than anything a magicka build can do in light armor. There was a brief moment in ESO history when this build had a counter: DOTs! But then we all saw how that turned out...all the aggrieved tree huggers rushed to the forums and got the DOTs nerfed. Sigh.
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Rahar
    Rahar
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    I think what OP is referring to is a stamina 1vX build. If that's the case, it's not a tank build; it relies on mobility and good healing to stay alive, along with short windows of increased damage mitigation or healing from sets. Most stam 1vX uses medium for the sprint speed, roll dodge reduction and weapon damage... in my experience.

    What is completely ignored in this scenario is that if you know one of these guys are running into a tower or corner part of a keep, you can just ignore them. As one of these kinds of "macro" players that doesn't particularly enjoy group PvP, I sometimes do the same to bait a few people into following me for the fun. Therein lies the difference: I'm there for the fun of an outnumbered fight. If the fun doesn't follow me into a tower, around a rock, etc., I eventually leave.

    Additionally,
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    The “UnKillable Tank” is a byproduct of CP

    Everyone saw the power creep coming when CP was introduced, but ZoS didn’t believe it. A couple years later, seeing an insane power creep in effect, ZoS puts a cap on CP but allowed for an increase in the cap with every major patch. And a couple years after that, they stopped increasing the cap altogether.

    Now they’re scrambling to figure out what to do with CP.

    The whole thing is laughable.

    The claim that CP is to blame for the current tankiness trend is 100% correct. It's CP getting out of hand and a product of damage nerfs/cost increases across the board.
    Edited by Rahar on December 11, 2019 3:15PM
    NeRf MaGsOrC
  • JanTanhide
    JanTanhide
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    LOL. You want realism in a video game....

    Ok, then make everything that cost Stamina in real life apply in ESO. Heavy armour means you are slow....heavy weapons cost stamina. The more you swing the more you use. You don't receive stamina from swinging a weapon. Walking cost stamina, running cost more. Jumping cost stamina.

    Heck, make the game act like real life!

    Geezus, enough with the nerf threads.
  • cyclonus11
    cyclonus11
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    more PVE nerfs inc

    I swear if I have to abandon another char over nerfs...
  • FakeZavos
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    Well Mr. TDA @nx125x guy that always tries to zerg me. Im actually not in heavy. Im a medium armour build, but a well crafted one. Im able to take quite a punch while still being able to do high damage. This mostly due to the fact that ive minmaxed everything and have been training in simular builds for almost 4 years now.

    Im specifficly build to fight people outnumbered and have been adapting to nerf to heavy armour and heavy armour sets for ages (therefor im in medium now).

    Maybe if you, and the rest of your DC faction woudnt 50v3 us all the time we would be able to play less tanky build. But since the endresult of primetime PvP is unfortunatly that u get zerged everywhere. Only thing to do as a "smallscaler" is adapt your build to it.
    Why do I even try
  • FakeZavos
    FakeZavos
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    nk125x wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

    Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

    To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
    Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
    Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

    You really need more agrees, because you're spot on. Nobody who cries for nerfs actually cares about balance, and anybody who says they do is lying. Everybody crying for nerfs only care about two things -- who they can kill, and who kills them. Ideally, they want the first as high as possible, the second as low as possible, and won't stop crying for nerfs until both conditions are satisfied.

    This is the 1st time I have suggested a nerf - Was dead against this round of nerfs because dots provided a way to kill these builds. I would gladly take a rewind of the damage nerfs.

    We're in a situation where damage has been nerfed to hell, No downside to wearing heavy armor and healing is as strong as ever. The number of these players is increasing. Eventually every stam player will be one - Fights will last hours without any deaths.

    Last night I was in a raid (all players long time pvp'ers) we took a yellow keep and literally we spent 15 minutes killing 2 reds who's sneaked in, with a sole purpose to play ring a ring of roses in one of the corner towers. Firstly I would like to know what fun they got out of it. I can only assume they are spotty teenagers with a complex about annoying as many people as possible. They def didn't get much AP out of it.

    @Machinegod @Flaumi and me litteraly killed 10 of u
    nk125x wrote: »
    nk125x wrote: »
    You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

    These builds literally can ignore stuns.

    Interrupting their healing is not a stun.

    As in my example above

    "Last night I was in a raid (all players long time pvp'ers) we took a yellow keep and literally we spent 15 minutes killing 2 reds who's sneaked in, with a sole purpose to play ring a ring of roses in one of the corner towers. Firstly I would like to know what fun they got out of it. I can only assume they are spotty teenagers with a complex about annoying as many people as possible. They def didn't get much AP out of it."

    We were doing everything - Interrupts/fears/stuns all were ignored.

    The thing what we (smallscalers) are trying and get fun out of are killing outnumbered. Wich works alot of times. I remember killing you and ur" raid" multiple times. What we cant do os fight 10+ with 5 healer in the group aswell. So then were stuck in a showoff of most heals. Thats not the issue with our tankyness. We have more then enough damage to take all of you down.

    Ur argument of trying to kill 2 reds with a raid is exactly why we have to build tanky. We wamt to kite and kill you. Not just get zerged and die on every occasion.
    Why do I even try
  • ZOS_Ragnar
    ZOS_Ragnar
    admin
    We have removed some non-constructive posts from this thread.
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  • FakeZavos
    FakeZavos
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    Apperently asking someone to join a discord or stream to discuss this is "non-constructive"...

    If you want I can still share a link but apperently ZOS doesnt allow discords to be shared on forums.
    Why do I even try
  • EIGHTS
    EIGHTS
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    EIGHTS wrote: »
    Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

    And half the player base will go along with said problems.

    Because those CHEATERS are killing this game. You're still afraid of their opinion? XD
    It's unwise to lose most players for a few people.

    So many players left Cyrodiil because of those people. ZOS still keeps turning a blind eye? XD

    Edited by EIGHTS on December 11, 2019 7:03PM
    I'm not native speaker in English. I hope that I don't make you misunderstand.
  • EIGHTS
    EIGHTS
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    If ZOS doesn't want to remove animation cancel, maybe they can make a build-in macro key for everyone. Let everyone can do the same thing and play the game fairly.
    I'm not native speaker in English. I hope that I don't make you misunderstand.
  • Fur_like_snow
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    Specifically what offense HA passive OP? I’ll wait...
    Edited by Fur_like_snow on December 11, 2019 7:10PM
  • GrigorijMalahevich
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    @nk125x brother, it is an obvious l2p issue, but you do understand that game doesn’t work like that, right?

    I hope you were joking :wink:
    PC/EU 800 CP.
    PvP MagSorc.
    Pedro Gonzales - Mag Sorc EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/CB6j6
    Valera Progib - Stam Sorc DC vMA Flawless Conqueror clear https://i.imgur.com/eYgpXG2.png
    Valera Pozhar - Mag DK EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/jrsuK
    Valera Podlechi - Mag Templar AD vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/N0BYq
  • Bloodraven187
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    nk125x wrote: »
    These are the changes I suggest:
    For Heavy Armour
    1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
    2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
    3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

    For 2H Weapons
    1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
    2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

    General changes
    1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

    Ok here are a few counters to your 'suggestions'

    For Heavy armor:
    1: tanks, and everyone for that matter, relies on resistances in all combat, especially PVE endgame. Nerfing resistances like you suggest will make end game literally impossible to survive much less clear. So, in a word, NO.
    2: Show me what offensive passives you see in heavy armor, because there aren't any. Sustain, yes. Offense, not a one.
    3: Properly designed and fitted full plate allows you to do somersaults in, I've seen it done. If you can't move in armor then it becomes useless. So before suggesting someone else do something you might want to do it yourself.

    For 2H weapons:
    1: I've actually used them myself in real life. You're wrong. Again, if the movement is too slow it a: has no damage behind it, and b: is too easy to avoid, thereby making it useless.
    2: There is only 1 channeled ability in the tree, so what would be the point? You can be interrupted or cc'd during the heavy swing as it is.

    Generals changes:
    1: That goes back to affecting PVE. And the healing you are getting is not coming from either the 2-hand or heavy armor trees at all. The minuscule amount you get from heavy armor is in the constitution passive only, and that is only a % of base passive healing, nothing active. Basically making tanks able to recover hp faster since they have so much more of it.

    And before you go and say the stereotypical 'just make things work differently in pvp and pve' are you skilled, qualified and have time enough for writing an entirely new set of combat mechanics code yourself? If not then don't waste your breath. Because that is what it would take. And if you think the game has performance issues now imagine how much more nightmarish it would be with 2 separate sets of code running at the same time.
  • Casul
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    EIGHTS wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    EIGHTS wrote: »
    Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

    And half the player base will go along with said problems.

    Because those CHEATERS are killing this game. You're still afraid of their opinion? XD
    It's unwise to lose most players for a few people.

    So many players left Cyrodiil because of those people. ZOS still keeps turning a blind eye? XD

    Cheaters = animation cancelers

    Yep that totally checks out /s
    PvP needs more love.
  • ketsparrowhawk
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    BuildMan wrote: »
    EIGHTS wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    EIGHTS wrote: »
    Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

    And half the player base will go along with said problems.

    Because those CHEATERS are killing this game. You're still afraid of their opinion? XD
    It's unwise to lose most players for a few people.

    So many players left Cyrodiil because of those people. ZOS still keeps turning a blind eye? XD

    Cheaters = animation cancelers

    Yep that totally checks out /s

    lol yep! What's funny is that Grim Focus and Bound Armaments REQUIRES that you cheat in order to use them XD
  • Gravord
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    Already 2 pages and barely a post or two adressing real issue - Ultimates are too strong in ESO, always were. Even full def build can pull off 10-12k (no cp) dawnbreakers/leaps/onslaughts, timed with another dmg skill and finisher can put down almost anyone.
    Nerfing ulti dmg by at least 30% and aoe ultis even further, would greatly improve overall combat quality and would put an end to baddies whose whole gameplay is solely based on "survive untill ulti, hope for few crits in your 3 button combo, if no kill wait for ulti again" while not being any real threat without ulti.
  • Bloodraven187
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    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.
    Edited by Bloodraven187 on December 11, 2019 8:02PM
  • Bloodraven187
    Bloodraven187
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    also, on the note of 'cheating' above here's a fun fact:

    Cheating, by definition, is breaking the rules. mechanics in this case. light attack weaving, ability linking, skill use, etc, is not cheating...if you can't break the rules you also can't cheat. Both of these are how you get high damage output in this game, just like in real life.A jab followed by a roundhouse does more damage than a straight roundhouse does. What you mean to say about people who do this is: "They can use the game's mechanics better than I can and I don't like it."

    And for the record, yes I hate the 1vX'ers who can run around taking on 4-10 people by themselves to make their e-peen feel bigger. And the gankers who can kill me in the time it takes to do a break-free. I do wish more was done about it, but that won't happen if there isn't actual, logical, objective and informed feedback.
    Edited by Bloodraven187 on December 11, 2019 8:11PM
  • Rahar
    Rahar
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    EIGHTS wrote: »
    If ZOS doesn't want to remove animation cancel, maybe they can make a build-in macro key for everyone. Let everyone can do the same thing and play the game fairly.

    its just a click lmao, all you have to actually do is press the click before a skill

    youre already looking at them and already hitting a key for a skill, just click in addition to it

    suddenly 300 iq plays and cheating
    NeRf MaGsOrC
  • Gravord
    Gravord
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    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.

    No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough.
  • MartiniDaniels
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    Gravord wrote: »
    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.

    No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough.

    This is all about broken knockbacks/fear/double cc (like streak into DBoS) etc... I guess when (if) ZOS manages to fix this cc-break issues, it will be whole new world in term of builds, because it will be much harder to kill players in few GCD without investing everything into damage.
  • Rahar
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    Gravord wrote: »
    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.

    No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough.

    bruh, you might be playing the wrong game if highly skilled gameplay is what you're after, try a fighting game?

    Serious: The skill in this game isn't about how many skills you use or what skills you use. It's utilizing them at the right times, under the right conditions, without using too many and stretching yourself thin. Ultimates are a part of this system, and most work well under it with a few exceptions.
    NeRf MaGsOrC
  • Gravord
    Gravord
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    Gravord wrote: »
    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.

    No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough.

    This is all about broken knockbacks/fear/double cc (like streak into DBoS) etc... I guess when (if) ZOS manages to fix this cc-break issues, it will be whole new world in term of builds, because it will be much harder to kill players in few GCD without investing everything into damage.

    Even with cc break fix, that i dont really hope for considering ZOS track record, overperforming ultimate issue would stay.
    Most bg guilds/groups ive met that for whatever reason ppl consider to be good ones, build their whole gameplay on 3-4 ultimates drop together. Again, not really big skill, tactical or gameplay level of ppl to voice coordinate 3-4 button clicks in same time that will wipe out everyone at once (colos+ 2/3 dawnbreakers seems to be most popular nowadays).
  • SeaGtGruff
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    What is this unkillable two-handed tank build of which you speak? Because my two-handed tank build is squishy in PvP.

    Oh. "Meta." Which means I haven't even looked at it, because I'm too busy exploring how things work on my own and don't want to just slavishly follow someone else's builds (who presumably arrived at them by exploring how things work on their own). Which means I'm... [runs in terror from oncoming zerg of players]... SQUISHY!

    So you want to nerf things for me because somebody else-- I'm sure a whole lot of somebody elses-- are much better players than me?
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
  • Bloodraven187
    Bloodraven187
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    @Gravord

    "No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough."

    I see, and how often can you cast sneak attack in the time it takes to build to 1 use of dawnbreaker, since we are using that as the benchmark? If the answer is more than 4, then yes because at that point your 5 sneak attacks make more damage than the 20k you gut did of a single hit done in the same amount of time.

    And anyone who can train the muscle memory to do that combo can do so easily as long as their reaction time can keep up with the required speed to make it look fluid. Not everyone can perform it smoothly because they can't keep up the reaction times and coordination to aim it properly, or can't train their muscles for those particular movements and have to think about it every time they do it. That is where the skill comes in. Coordination and timing.
    Edited by Bloodraven187 on December 11, 2019 8:33PM
  • ZonasArch
    ZonasArch
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    nk125x wrote: »
    Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

    These are the changes I suggest:
    For Heavy Armour
    1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
    2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
    3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

    For 2H Weapons
    1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
    2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

    General changes
    1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

    Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

    No down side to heavy armor? You lose Magicka regen and penetration for light, or weapon damage for medium, for example... There's a lot to lose. It's a trade off. If it wasn't, no one would use light or medium in pve either.

    Here's a argumentative too for you... Don't cry wolf. Don't exaggerate. Hyperbole is your ultimate enemy.

    Because if that one line in your argument, you're 100% discredited to me and lots of others. It's a l2p issue now and your complaint will be readily ignored.

    Calling macro with no proof goes in that exact same direction...

    And no, I don't run that setup, never did and probably never will. 2h is, like you suggested to be the opposite, too slow. Which, btw, is yet another case of over exaggerating ending up discrediting your arguments.

    Three strikes. You're out.
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