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For the love of PVP, ZOS please nerf the Unkillable tank/2H Build Meta

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  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    nk125x wrote: »
    TequilaFire wrote: »
    You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

    These builds literally can ignore stuns.

    You can't totally ignore stuns other then by spamming unstoppable brute which applies very severe unpurgeable snare on you.

    But of course player can combine cc-immunity pots with LOS and with mist and it might look like he is cc-immune 100% of the time, but he is not.

    And you claim that your group is long time PVP-ers. If you are in organized raid, it means you have voice connection. Send several (3-4, not 20) high dps players to kill your opponents with coordinated burst. Really, I can understand such nerf requests from solo players new to PVP, but when organized ball group wants to nerf everything other then PvDoor and chaotic XvX... no. Let everyone play their own game.

    Of course there are some cheezy extremely tanky builds utilizing pariah, vampire, warden/templar abilities so group of 3-4 people can be literally immortal for some amount of time... but then you may ask ZOS for mitigation cap and not to nerf heavy and 2H. 2H has nothing to do with this tankiness at all, it is simply most effective damage skill line at the moment.
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  • Rahar
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    I think what OP is referring to is a stamina 1vX build. If that's the case, it's not a tank build; it relies on mobility and good healing to stay alive, along with short windows of increased damage mitigation or healing from sets. Most stam 1vX uses medium for the sprint speed, roll dodge reduction and weapon damage... in my experience.

    What is completely ignored in this scenario is that if you know one of these guys are running into a tower or corner part of a keep, you can just ignore them. As one of these kinds of "macro" players that doesn't particularly enjoy group PvP, I sometimes do the same to bait a few people into following me for the fun. Therein lies the difference: I'm there for the fun of an outnumbered fight. If the fun doesn't follow me into a tower, around a rock, etc., I eventually leave.

    Additionally,
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    The “UnKillable Tank” is a byproduct of CP

    Everyone saw the power creep coming when CP was introduced, but ZoS didn’t believe it. A couple years later, seeing an insane power creep in effect, ZoS puts a cap on CP but allowed for an increase in the cap with every major patch. And a couple years after that, they stopped increasing the cap altogether.

    Now they’re scrambling to figure out what to do with CP.

    The whole thing is laughable.

    The claim that CP is to blame for the current tankiness trend is 100% correct. It's CP getting out of hand and a product of damage nerfs/cost increases across the board.
    Edited by Rahar on December 11, 2019 3:15PM
    NeRf MaGsOrC
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  • cyclonus11
    cyclonus11
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    more PVE nerfs inc

    I swear if I have to abandon another char over nerfs...
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  • ZOS_RyanM
    ZOS_RyanM
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    We have removed some non-constructive posts from this thread.
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  • FakeZavos
    FakeZavos
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    Apperently asking someone to join a discord or stream to discuss this is "non-constructive"...

    If you want I can still share a link but apperently ZOS doesnt allow discords to be shared on forums.
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  • Fur_like_snow
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    Specifically what offense HA passive OP? I’ll wait...
    Edited by Fur_like_snow on December 11, 2019 7:10PM
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  • GrigorijMalahevich
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    @nk125x brother, it is an obvious l2p issue, but you do understand that game doesn’t work like that, right?

    I hope you were joking :wink:
    PC/EU 800 CP.
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  • Bloodraven187
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    nk125x wrote: »
    These are the changes I suggest:
    For Heavy Armour
    1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
    2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
    3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

    For 2H Weapons
    1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
    2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

    General changes
    1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

    Ok here are a few counters to your 'suggestions'

    For Heavy armor:
    1: tanks, and everyone for that matter, relies on resistances in all combat, especially PVE endgame. Nerfing resistances like you suggest will make end game literally impossible to survive much less clear. So, in a word, NO.
    2: Show me what offensive passives you see in heavy armor, because there aren't any. Sustain, yes. Offense, not a one.
    3: Properly designed and fitted full plate allows you to do somersaults in, I've seen it done. If you can't move in armor then it becomes useless. So before suggesting someone else do something you might want to do it yourself.

    For 2H weapons:
    1: I've actually used them myself in real life. You're wrong. Again, if the movement is too slow it a: has no damage behind it, and b: is too easy to avoid, thereby making it useless.
    2: There is only 1 channeled ability in the tree, so what would be the point? You can be interrupted or cc'd during the heavy swing as it is.

    Generals changes:
    1: That goes back to affecting PVE. And the healing you are getting is not coming from either the 2-hand or heavy armor trees at all. The minuscule amount you get from heavy armor is in the constitution passive only, and that is only a % of base passive healing, nothing active. Basically making tanks able to recover hp faster since they have so much more of it.

    And before you go and say the stereotypical 'just make things work differently in pvp and pve' are you skilled, qualified and have time enough for writing an entirely new set of combat mechanics code yourself? If not then don't waste your breath. Because that is what it would take. And if you think the game has performance issues now imagine how much more nightmarish it would be with 2 separate sets of code running at the same time.
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  • BuildMan
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    EIGHTS wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    EIGHTS wrote: »
    Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

    And half the player base will go along with said problems.

    Because those CHEATERS are killing this game. You're still afraid of their opinion? XD
    It's unwise to lose most players for a few people.

    So many players left Cyrodiil because of those people. ZOS still keeps turning a blind eye? XD

    Cheaters = animation cancelers

    Yep that totally checks out /s
    PSN: YourACasul
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  • ketsparrowhawk
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    BuildMan wrote: »
    EIGHTS wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    EIGHTS wrote: »
    Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

    And half the player base will go along with said problems.

    Because those CHEATERS are killing this game. You're still afraid of their opinion? XD
    It's unwise to lose most players for a few people.

    So many players left Cyrodiil because of those people. ZOS still keeps turning a blind eye? XD

    Cheaters = animation cancelers

    Yep that totally checks out /s

    lol yep! What's funny is that Grim Focus and Bound Armaments REQUIRES that you cheat in order to use them XD
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  • Gravord
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    Already 2 pages and barely a post or two adressing real issue - Ultimates are too strong in ESO, always were. Even full def build can pull off 10-12k (no cp) dawnbreakers/leaps/onslaughts, timed with another dmg skill and finisher can put down almost anyone.
    Nerfing ulti dmg by at least 30% and aoe ultis even further, would greatly improve overall combat quality and would put an end to baddies whose whole gameplay is solely based on "survive untill ulti, hope for few crits in your 3 button combo, if no kill wait for ulti again" while not being any real threat without ulti.
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  • Bloodraven187
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    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.
    Edited by Bloodraven187 on December 11, 2019 8:02PM
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  • Bloodraven187
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    also, on the note of 'cheating' above here's a fun fact:

    Cheating, by definition, is breaking the rules. mechanics in this case. light attack weaving, ability linking, skill use, etc, is not cheating...if you can't break the rules you also can't cheat. Both of these are how you get high damage output in this game, just like in real life.A jab followed by a roundhouse does more damage than a straight roundhouse does. What you mean to say about people who do this is: "They can use the game's mechanics better than I can and I don't like it."

    And for the record, yes I hate the 1vX'ers who can run around taking on 4-10 people by themselves to make their e-peen feel bigger. And the gankers who can kill me in the time it takes to do a break-free. I do wish more was done about it, but that won't happen if there isn't actual, logical, objective and informed feedback.
    Edited by Bloodraven187 on December 11, 2019 8:11PM
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  • Gravord
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    Bloodraven187 wrote: »
    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.

    No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough.
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  • MartiniDaniels
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    Gravord wrote: »
    Bloodraven187 wrote: »
    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.

    No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough.

    This is all about broken knockbacks/fear/double cc (like streak into DBoS) etc... I guess when (if) ZOS manages to fix this cc-break issues, it will be whole new world in term of builds, because it will be much harder to kill players in few GCD without investing everything into damage.
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  • Gravord
    Gravord
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    MartiniDaniels wrote: »
    Gravord wrote: »
    Bloodraven187 wrote: »
    @Gravord, not sure where you are getting this from. A: I have you to actually die to an ult more than once every 20-30 opponents, and get worn down light attacks and ability use. B: Ulti's are stronger than other abilities because they are something you have to build to, and the stronger the ulti the more it costs and less frequently you can use it. If you nerf the damage by 30% that brings them down out of the ultimate category and puts them in the regular abilities, so what you are really asking for here is that they eliminate all ultimates period. Not going to happen, so don't bother asking. C: ability linking, the 3-hit combo you're talking about, is part of the game as a whole, and can be done with any 3 damage abilities from the right attacker to the right defender, ultimate or not. I've both done it and seen it done before. People who can link abilities intelligently and fluidly aren't baddies they are what are called good players. And this is as true in PVE as it is in PVP.

    No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough.

    This is all about broken knockbacks/fear/double cc (like streak into DBoS) etc... I guess when (if) ZOS manages to fix this cc-break issues, it will be whole new world in term of builds, because it will be much harder to kill players in few GCD without investing everything into damage.

    Even with cc break fix, that i dont really hope for considering ZOS track record, overperforming ultimate issue would stay.
    Most bg guilds/groups ive met that for whatever reason ppl consider to be good ones, build their whole gameplay on 3-4 ultimates drop together. Again, not really big skill, tactical or gameplay level of ppl to voice coordinate 3-4 button clicks in same time that will wipe out everyone at once (colos+ 2/3 dawnbreakers seems to be most popular nowadays).
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  • SeaGtGruff
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    What is this unkillable two-handed tank build of which you speak? Because my two-handed tank build is squishy in PvP.

    Oh. "Meta." Which means I haven't even looked at it, because I'm too busy exploring how things work on my own and don't want to just slavishly follow someone else's builds (who presumably arrived at them by exploring how things work on their own). Which means I'm... [runs in terror from oncoming zerg of players]... SQUISHY!

    So you want to nerf things for me because somebody else-- I'm sure a whole lot of somebody elses-- are much better players than me?
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
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  • Bloodraven187
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    @Gravord

    "No cp Suprise attack 5k (4m range, single target ability), same target hit by Dawnbreaker 10k plus follow up dot (10m range, wide frontal aoe, aoe stun). 30% dmg nerf doesnt put them on regular abilities level mate, not by a long shot. But it eliminates, at least partially, nabbie gameplay i call "ulti or no kill".

    And no, casting subtearrean assault, wreck, dawnbreaker, executioner (taking warden for example) is not "skilled gameplay" as so many in ESO would like to believe. Its simple 4 button combo that can be executed by a monkey, not even a well trained one. What bothers me is with such simplistic 4 button "rotation" you can take down anyone easily with so little actual player skills, without investing into offensive build, because ultimate will carry enough."

    I see, and how often can you cast sneak attack in the time it takes to build to 1 use of dawnbreaker, since we are using that as the benchmark? If the answer is more than 4, then yes because at that point your 5 sneak attacks make more damage than the 20k you gut did of a single hit done in the same amount of time.

    And anyone who can train the muscle memory to do that combo can do so easily as long as their reaction time can keep up with the required speed to make it look fluid. Not everyone can perform it smoothly because they can't keep up the reaction times and coordination to aim it properly, or can't train their muscles for those particular movements and have to think about it every time they do it. That is where the skill comes in. Coordination and timing.
    Edited by Bloodraven187 on December 11, 2019 8:33PM
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  • ZonasArch
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    nk125x wrote: »
    Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

    These are the changes I suggest:
    For Heavy Armour
    1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
    2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
    3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

    For 2H Weapons
    1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
    2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

    General changes
    1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

    Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

    No down side to heavy armor? You lose Magicka regen and penetration for light, or weapon damage for medium, for example... There's a lot to lose. It's a trade off. If it wasn't, no one would use light or medium in pve either.

    Here's a argumentative too for you... Don't cry wolf. Don't exaggerate. Hyperbole is your ultimate enemy.

    Because if that one line in your argument, you're 100% discredited to me and lots of others. It's a l2p issue now and your complaint will be readily ignored.

    Calling macro with no proof goes in that exact same direction...

    And no, I don't run that setup, never did and probably never will. 2h is, like you suggested to be the opposite, too slow. Which, btw, is yet another case of over exaggerating ending up discrediting your arguments.

    Three strikes. You're out.
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