For the love of PVP, ZOS please nerf the Unkillable tank/2H Build Meta

nk125x

Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

MartiniDaniels

Man, all problem you experience are not related to macro, this is just performance of the game. When you are hard cc'd, often happens a de-sync so everything you see on screen happens with 0.5-2 seconds delay and you can't properly break free and die in 1 GCD (from your point of view), but for your opponent it was 3-4 GCD.
About unkillable&high damage - try fighting similar guys in 1v1 and you'll see there is no magic or cheating here... it's simply their builds benefit and grant them superior stats when multiple opponents spam weak attacks in them. It's all about Bloodspawn and Fury, this sets are great in such situations.

Bashev

nk125x wrote: »

Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

What offensive passives? That passive was removed long time ago.

BomblePants

/facepalm.... Tank takes longer than 10 seconds to kill, call for nerfs and tag Zos team due to extreme seriousness of issue.....

kargen27

"Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it."

And while they are at it they should try out that big stick that will keep hot oil from killing people. The build might be overpowered maybe? Prove your point with in game numbers. Real world doesn't apply nor should it.

Healers already had to make adjustments because of changes that many consider to have been nerfs.

EIGHTS

Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

Hamish999

Or you could go play in noCP ...
Much less of an issue with tanky builds there.

Monte_Cristo

I'd rather they gave the wrath passive back to heavy armour.

Curious_Death

there is no too tanky guy if u re smart... if he's rly 50k hp or something then he isnt any threat to you... if u try to kill a couple of time wasting guys build 4-7 man group and every1 have +32k hp then u needs to L2P or change game to FPS u re not godlike - theres no way to kill them and u can just run from them easly, with that amount of hp they cannot chase one guy. Respect own time and fight with targets u can kill

nk125x

Bashev wrote: »

What offensive passives? That passive was removed long time ago.

Lets pick a set - Affliction

2 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 items: Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
5 items: When you deal damage, you have a 50% chance to deal an additional 1830 Disease Damage and apply Minor Defile to the target, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 15% for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds seconds.

1st one on the list

BomblePants wrote: »

/facepalm.... Tank takes longer than 10 seconds to kill, call for nerfs and tag Zos team due to extreme seriousness of issue.....

10 people for over 10 mins - If that is good PvP obviously you are one of those tanky builds playing "catch me if you can" in towers

Quoted post has been removed.

See previous comment

How can it be healthy for PvP if a single meta is so outperforming every other one.

Zer0_CooL

I assume most people commenting here it is a L2P issue, since tanks shouldn't be easy to kill, didn't read more than the title.

OP is refering to those with high sustain, slippery AF, tower/rock/tree circlers, ultra hardcore parcour pros with a *** load of burst dmg. Those are not tank builds. And i totaly understand the frustration of OP here, since all those players do is run away, until they got their ulti ready, then pull off their burst combo, and again run around the rock.

@nk125x as i already mentioned, those are not tank builds. They have sustain and high damage. Mostly stam chars. Their Nr.1 defence is to block the line of sight so you can't use a skill on them. Combined with dodge rolling and HoT (vigor). If you don't want to ignore them completely, (which is a good option) the best way to counter this playstile is to get in open field.

If you chase such a player don't waste all your resources in atempt to cause damage (place your DoTs on them and let them run). Don't run, spare your stamina. Always keep up your defence and be prepaired for his approach (mostly the moment you come up the stairs, in a smal gap between rocks ect). Avoid getting stuned by blocking, outheal/ shield / block his damage. As soon as his aproach failed, counter him. Stun, dots, ulti, execute. (more or less)

No need to nerf a specific playstile, though i don't like them either.

Here have some footage of the curent PvP meta playstyle:

Tommy_The_Gun

People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

Bashev

nk125x wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

What offensive passives? That passive was removed long time ago.

Lets pick a set - Affliction

2 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 items: Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
5 items: When you deal damage, you have a 50% chance to deal an additional 1830 Disease Damage and apply Minor Defile to the target, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 15% for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds seconds.

1st one on the list

BomblePants wrote: »

/facepalm.... Tank takes longer than 10 seconds to kill, call for nerfs and tag Zos team due to extreme seriousness of issue.....

10 people for over 10 mins - If that is good PvP obviously you are one of those tanky builds playing "catch me if you can" in towers

Quoted post has been removed.

See previous comment

How can it be healthy for PvP if a single meta is so outperforming every other one.

That is not passives, that is heavy armor set. You know that I can use 1 light or medium set with jewelries then offensive monster set and then even crafted heavy armor offensive set if they remove all damage heavy armor sets?

The tank build are not only heavy armor but they are combination of buffs and skills that are used. The problem is really deep but the biggest offender is the strong healing which was not adjusted after a lot of damage skills were reduced.

Lazarus_Rising

It was predictable that this will happen after the dots nerf. Unkillable tank builds. I thought this is what the community wanted anyway, no?

Grianasteri

nk125x wrote: »

Over the last few weeks my friends and I are running into this build more and more often. I bet all of you have seen the tank that takes 10+ people over 5 mins to kill. How can this be right. You know you are about to face one, when they sprint into a tower as its been flipped by another alliance or rush into a keep and again head for a corner tower even though their alliance is not involved in the fight. You then end up chasing them in a boring game of ring a ring of roses, immune to stuns or damage. God help you if you become the target of their "macro" burst (Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) - that all seam to hit at the same time). Look at your death reports, I bet the majority look similar to this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Anyone in the combat team, please go to a museum and try on some heavy Armour and pick up a 2H weaapon and try to swing it. Yes it does huge damage but is slow, and the weight of the armor makes you slow.

These are the changes I suggest:
For Heavy Armour
1: Make the resistances act like CP - Deminishing returns from the more you stack
2: Remove all offensive passives from heavy armor. You wear it for protection, At the moment there is no downside for wearing heavy armor.
3: Add a speed penalty for wearing heavy (You try running and in heavy) and/or disallow any gap closers.

For 2H Weapons
1: Yes keep the damage, but make the channel times much longer (In real life, swinging a 2H weapon will take seconds).
2: If hit in channel you become off balanced.

General changes
1: Nerf the healing - You nerfed most of the damage.

Also ZOS please implement a macro detection system, how can some of these people get their burst ((Dizzying Swing - Heavy Attack - Onslaught - Executioner) all to hit at the same time. In PC EU there is a group of them from the yellows and reds running around together (And yes there will be blues too) - But my friends and I keep running into this group and they all are running the same macro.

I imagine, without reading the comments, many will scream "l2p" and "get gud". To a certain extent that stance isnt wrong, we must all strive for improvement and for ways to counter the tactics of our opponents.

However that really isnt what the OP is talking about or the salient issue.

There are players who have created builds, which literally make them immortal, able to sustain health and survive Vs 10+ players all trying to kill them.

Player skill/ability is obviously a major factor of course, kiting, line of sighting, skill use. I doubt anyone is denying this.

But for me, any system that allows a single player to remain alive against so many opponents, who are generally built for pvp, is a broken system and should not be possible.

Macros is a separate but important issue. Clearly people ARE using Macros.

Siohwenoeht

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

Can't give you enough agrees on this one.

The other question I always have with these kinds of posts is "how do you know it was a heavy armor build?". Or are you assuming? Did this player share their build after you chased them around for 10 min?

I have near resistance cap medium builds and light builds that have 1 piece of heavy for undaunted passives.

When I see these types of builds I have 3 different strategies. If they are in the open field, I ignore them, if they are in a resource tower/los'ing all over the place, I wait for them to come out or run in an opposite circle, if they are in a keep that flipped, I'll get as many hits in as I can and keep the fight going for d-ticks until I get bored.

Aznarb

Mostly agree with OP.
Everyone contesting this is just one of these build user who just wanna keep this stupid thing alive.
I took not more then 1 hour to see some of these "tanky-bursty-healy" build.
They're not even hard to make, took me few hours to gather all and no I'm also a Tank-Healer (y I don't dps, i'm full healer) who can handle 10 player pretty easily.

This one of the 1st reason that people don't like pvp, 0 balance.
1st game where I pvp I saw a mess like this where everyone can do all role at once.
But who care ? The majority in cyro are here to farm AP, they're is only few pvper and they're here on the forum crying about everything while abusing mechanic, hypocrisy much.

So, I can't blame ZoS to ignore pvp side of the game, to much work for only few player.

Luede

Tower Fights has nothing todo with tankiness. Fight them in open field and look how fast they die. Problem with tower fights is the LOS issue. If he runs faster u cant aim and dmg him.

Lumenn

As a complete outsider (i play bgs no cp) It almost sounds like op wants anyone wearing heavy to be too slow to run and use cover, and too slow to swing a sword. Listing a sets attributes as general passives for heavy armor doesn't help either. As has been mentioned you can get near resistance cap in lighter armors than heavy. But even in "real life" these warriors weren't wearing hundreds of lbs of armor with a 100lb sword. Some of our soldiers today carry more weight in the field, and you better believe you have to run. Just like our soldiers today, back then they trained. These weren't scribes who suited up and went to war.

jcm2606

EIGHTS wrote: »

Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

And half the player base will go along with said problems.

ChunkyCat

The “UnKillable Tank” is a byproduct of CP

Everyone saw the power creep coming when CP was introduced, but ZoS didn’t believe it. A couple years later, seeing an insane power creep in effect, ZoS puts a cap on CP but allowed for an increase in the cap with every major patch. And a couple years after that, they stopped increasing the cap altogether.

Now they’re scrambling to figure out what to do with CP.

The whole thing is laughable.

jcm2606

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

You really need more agrees, because you're spot on. Nobody who cries for nerfs actually cares about balance, and anybody who says they do is lying. Everybody crying for nerfs only care about two things -- who they can kill, and who kills them. Ideally, they want the first as high as possible, the second as low as possible, and won't stop crying for nerfs until both conditions are satisfied.

TequilaFire

You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

nk125x

jcm2606 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People were dying to bleed dmg, oblivion dmg and defiles... So forums were like: NERF THOSE BECOUSE THEY KILL ME...

Well it just so happens that bleed dmg, WW, oblivion dmg, defile... were direct counter to tanks...

To me this is hilarious. Becouse people complain now that they dont have caunters to tanks...
Well maybe, just maybe if you (you as if the forum nerf-callers) did not "call for nerfs" this much you could still use those ?
Anyway, this is how short-sighted aproach and blindly calling for nerfs ends. With a broken combat-ecosystem...

You really need more agrees, because you're spot on. Nobody who cries for nerfs actually cares about balance, and anybody who says they do is lying. Everybody crying for nerfs only care about two things -- who they can kill, and who kills them. Ideally, they want the first as high as possible, the second as low as possible, and won't stop crying for nerfs until both conditions are satisfied.

This is the 1st time I have suggested a nerf - Was dead against this round of nerfs because dots provided a way to kill these builds. I would gladly take a rewind of the damage nerfs.

We're in a situation where damage has been nerfed to hell, No downside to wearing heavy armor and healing is as strong as ever. The number of these players is increasing. Eventually every stam player will be one - Fights will last hours without any deaths.

Last night I was in a raid (all players long time pvp'ers) we took a yellow keep and literally we spent 15 minutes killing 2 reds who's sneaked in, with a sole purpose to play ring a ring of roses in one of the corner towers. Firstly I would like to know what fun they got out of it. I can only assume they are spotty teenagers with a complex about annoying as many people as possible. They def didn't get much AP out of it.

nk125x

TequilaFire wrote: »

You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

These builds literally can ignore stuns.

TheFM

ZoS nerfed all dots to the ground, and people are really surprised this is happening. This is on all the people that cried about dots being " too op ", but were fine with burst that can be timed and hit for over 30 k in 1 second.

17 k over ten seconds, BLASPHEMY!!!!!

30 k in 1 second? Totally legit.

Sandman929

I find the tower running annoying, my solution was to stop personally going into the towers after them. If someone runs for more than about 10 seconds, I'm out.

TheFM

EIGHTS wrote: »

Remove animation cancel. Half of the problems will get solved.

As long as i can still cancel the ability completely to adapt to changing situations, id be totally fine with that.

TequilaFire

nk125x wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

These builds literally can ignore stuns.

Interrupting their healing is not a stun.

nk125x

TequilaFire wrote: »

nk125x wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You would be surprised how much faster those tanky builds go down if someone interrupts and bashes said tank while others do damage.

These builds literally can ignore stuns.

Interrupting their healing is not a stun.

As in my example above

"Last night I was in a raid (all players long time pvp'ers) we took a yellow keep and literally we spent 15 minutes killing 2 reds who's sneaked in, with a sole purpose to play ring a ring of roses in one of the corner towers. Firstly I would like to know what fun they got out of it. I can only assume they are spotty teenagers with a complex about annoying as many people as possible. They def didn't get much AP out of it."

We were doing everything - Interrupts/fears/stuns all were ignored.

TequilaFire

Well maybe you should just ignore them, they will get bored and move on.
They accomplished their objective to aggro and keep your group busy from doing anything else.