1500 crowns per outfit slot (1 slot) just under $1200 for every slot

Starlock · September 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

*sigh*

You are reading words. I don't think you are understanding what they mean, sir. I'm done. Sorry. I don't have the patience for this.

Fine. Have a good night. (I'm a "she", btw).

Thanks for understanding! Pardon the misgendering.

I hope you can understand that drawing attention to one issue is not intended to diminish others. Frankly, even if it is intended, it doesn’t diminish others. There is so much stuff going on in the world that it helps no one to shut down conversations about any issue whether it is considered big or small by the listeners and speakers. This forum is a space to discuss the ESO crown store, which naturally includes discussions about pricing issues. Discussions about other matters can (and should) happen in their appropriate venues too.

Morgha_Kul · September 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

As I've said before, would you rather sell one item at $1000 or ten items at $100?

I've answered that one at least 10 times, so I won't do it again. Suffice to say that you only need to read a basic book about economics to realize that your reasoning works only if the price/demand elasticity of the product is 1. In other words, nothing tells you that a 10x lower price gives you a 10x higher sales volume.
ZOS has data to back up their own pricing decisions - which you don't. All you're doing is disguising your own frustration as a buyer as an "advice" for ZOS, which probably knows MUCH BETTER than you what's good for them and what's not.

Furthermore, you're (general you for people in this thread, maybe not you specifically) are making a moral judgement of it. STOP ! This isn't about anything vital like food & shelter, this is about a video game, and anyone not having it is not going to die, they're only going to be frustrated like children who cannot accept that they acn't have everything they want, right here and right now.

ZOS is REALLY fair when it comes to the crown store : nothing in there is mandatory to play and enjoy the game to the fullest, and the base game is practically free to play these days. So please stop the entitled whining.

Almost 40 years of sales experience tells me all I need to know about the economics of it. The numbers I used were for illustration (which I thought was obvious), and were not themselves the point. AGAIN, it's a point you seem to have missed. It's about the CUSTOMERS. If you have ticked off customers, they will spread their displeasure, to the detriment of your business. On the other hand, having happy customers will allow the business to grow.

The point is to make the pricing such that you maximize your happy customers and minimize your unhappy customers while still making a profit. My ADVICE is to do what will promote the growth and longevity of the company and the game. My (and so many others') frustration is evidence that their policy is NOT doing that.

There is actually a kind of moral dimension to this too, in that GREED is often regarded as a moral issue. Again, they're charging $15 for a Mars bar. That's not normal, and that level of greed is so drastic that it becomes a moral/ethical concern. In essence, if they're prepared to do THIS, how much further will they be willing to go? Where does the gouging end?

Fair is a matter of some opinion. Is it fair to charge $15 for a Mars bar? Is it fair to put so much of the most desirable content of a game we're already paying for behind outlandishly huge price walls, excluding much of the playerbase? You may think so. You're that one happy customer. There are nine unhappy customers who are going to undermine the business. THEY should be a concern.

Don't characterize any argument posed here as "whining." Infantilization is invalid argument. We have valid concerns, both for our own interests (of course), but also for the future of the game. Make note of this: WE WANT THE GAME TO DO WELL. We like it here. We grow concerned when they do things that will potentially harm the game's longevity, and we will complain when they do so.

heaven13 · September 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

But stop coming in this thread and continuing to try to make people feel guilty about wanting more reasonable prices on crown store items because they should care about real world issues instead.

The problem is not me making them feel guilty, it's those people who make it sound like a general "social equity" issue.
Vital things need to be available for everyone. Video games are not a vital thing. Period.
Even if you don't relate it to "real life", it's not a vital issue. You can play ESO without all this stuff, and you know it. ZOS is being fair and you're still not happy in spite of them being fair.
After all, they *could* make their game P2W and make MUCH MORE money out of it. Yet they don't.

Besides, liking the game doesn't make you entitled to get extra stuff cheap.

If you'd read the comments in this thread, you'd understand the majority of players are not saying these items are vital. They are passing along information that yes, they want them, but the price for them is not reasonable nor is the vague information presented through the crown interface acceptable.

Additionally, the consensus is not that they be given for free. People are willing to pay crowns for them, have accepted that there is not a method to also earn/purchase them through in-game means. Many MANY people have given direct (as direct as you can get when comparing similar products in similar games) evidence on why they believe these items are overpriced and not just "wahhh, I don't want to pay".

I can accept that the price offered is not one I want to make and I can choose not to purchase it. Eventually I may accept that this game is not the place for me for one reason or another. But that doesn't mean I also can't voice my opinion on the matter and hope to be heard. ZoS communication may not be the best and often it certainly feels like there's a wall between the devs and the players, but listening to their playerbase has resulted in positive changes in the past (Pyandonean motif, hello) and that kind of feedback and give/take is and should be part of the relationship between the two.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Make note of this: WE WANT THE GAME TO DO WELL.

So does ZOS, and the game IS doing extremely well, which to a large extent shows that they don't need any advice at all, nor deserve criticism.
Besides, we (you, me and everyone outside ZOS) lack the most basic data needed to make such assumptions, let alone give any advice.

heaven13 wrote: »

Many MANY people have given direct (as direct as you can get when comparing similar products in similar games) evidence on why they believe these items are overpriced and not just "wahhh, I don't want to pay".

1/ This is exactly why it is irrelevant : it refers to "similar games", not ESO.
2/ This is exactly what it is : "Wahhh I don't want to pay" in disguise. And this is what irks me.

When you go into a shop and find something you like, but it's too expensive in your opinion, what do you do ? Harass the vendor by explaning to him how he should price his stuff differently, how he should run his business, how unsocial and greedy he is ? Or do you simply leave the shop and go on your merry way ?

ZOS may want, need and ask for feedback when it comes to gameplay and game design. But pricing is their thing.

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The point is to make the pricing such that you maximize your happy customers and minimize your unhappy customers while still making a profit. My ADVICE is to do what will promote the growth and longevity of the company and the game. My (and so many others') frustration is evidence that their policy is NOT doing that.

Your frustration is evidence of nothing. You may as well be the occasional unhappy customer when most other people happily buy (or don't buy but are still happy players).

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Again, they're charging $15 for a Mars bar. That's not normal, and that level of greed is so drastic that it becomes a moral/ethical concern.

They aren't charging 15$ for a Mars Bar, they're charging 1500 crowns for an outfit slot for one character. Your analogy is manipulative, and calling it an ethical issue is totally out of place. It's their pricing policy, period.

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

There is so much stuff going on in the world that it helps no one to shut down conversations about any issue whether it is considered big or small by the listeners and speakers.

The world is full of big and small issues, and all of them deserve to be spoken about. The price of fluff in a video game is no issue at all and therefore shouldn't be referred to as one, because it diminishes all others, intended or not.

Michae · September 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The world is full of big and small issues, and all of them deserve to be spoken about. The price of fluff in a video game is no issue at all and therefore shouldn't be referred to as one, because it diminishes all others, intended or not.

What are you doing here then? Why do you keep coming here tu shut down some pricing discussion where's the world of issues out there?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

They aren't charging 15$ for a Mars Bar, they're charging 1500 crowns for an outfit slot for one character. Your analogy is manipulative, and calling it an ethical issue is totally out of place. It's their pricing policy, period.

But there's no period. They keep changing the game, monetizing more and more things and steadily raising prices. And the difference between some shop and ESO is time investment and involvment. People have invested countless hours here, paid for game, dlcs, chapters, subscription. On top of that we're expected to pay for some other stuff. Costumes used to cost 700 Crowns and you bought them in packs of three (see this month's returning costumes), then they made them cost 500-700 Crowns for one costume and now you get one costume for 1000-1200 Crowns. Same with mounts, before they started at 900, now they easily reach 4500 Crowns. Add on top of it crown crates, riding lessons, skill lines and you get the picture. Sure I don't have to buy everything and anything but that's not the point. When the game's designed around nickel and diming it's player base it tends to get less enjoyable. Why make balanced and interesting character progression when they can make it tedious and charge for skipping it (see riding lessons or skill lines)? Why make the content rewarding when they can just sell the rewards on top of the content? So the pricing policy is not set in stone, they are constantly testing the waters on how much they can get away with and this is why threads like this are created.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

When you go into a shop and find something you like, but it's too expensive in your opinion, what do you do ? Harass the vendor by explaning to him how he should price his stuff differently, how he should run his business, how unsocial and greedy he is ? Or do you simply leave the shop and go on your merry way ?

As if yelling at the counter was the only option. That's just silly.
Shops, restaurants and generally businesses often have an option for their customers to voice their opinions. There are surveys, polls, comments on their websites or facebook fanpages and user reviews on various sites. If someone is dissatisfied with a service, be it price, quality of an item or even taste, they are free to go into those outlets and leave their feedback. That's how it works. If there's enough dissatisfied voices companies do tend to change their policies.

In ZOS' case we have these forums. There are various threads on those forums, some are related to the mechanics, some are related to monetization, some are related to discussion on where this game is going. Some are positive and some are negative. There are rules in place, non constructive and offensive comments are often deleted, the others stay. So how those comments here are in any way like harassment of a shopkeeper at the counter? ZOS' provided an outlet for people's opinions so people leave their opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. You can disagree with them, you can reply and argue about why you disagree, but shutting down the discussion leads nowhere. They are as much right to be here as you. So live and let live, but argue the points made, not that the conversation is pointless.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Besides, we (you, me and everyone outside ZOS) lack the most basic data needed to make such assumptions, let alone give any advice.

Sure, we may be lacking data, but sales figures are not everything. And companies do collect data and feedback, which we are providing here. Thay may or may not listen to us but that doesn't make our feedback pointless or unimportant. There were cases where ZOS changed something based on feedback, be it providing additional race change tokens, changing game mechanics or fixing bugs. So let us voice our poinions, especially when they're argumented and not just simply dismissive and argue back at us if you disagree, but please, don't dismiss us as whiners and try to shut down discussion. There's nothing really to lose here and so much to gain.

Wow, that came out long. All in all, I hope there's no hard feelings and that we can both enjoy our game for years to come.

Elsonso · September 2019

Michae wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The world is full of big and small issues, and all of them deserve to be spoken about. The price of fluff in a video game is no issue at all and therefore shouldn't be referred to as one, because it diminishes all others, intended or not.

What are you doing here then? Why do you keep coming here tu shut down some pricing discussion where's the world of issues out there?

Does not matter why. Why is anyone here. They speak a lot of truth, and that is all that really matters.

This thread will probably be closed, as it is starting to turn nasty, and that is a shame. The thread needs to stay open.

Michae · September 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The world is full of big and small issues, and all of them deserve to be spoken about. The price of fluff in a video game is no issue at all and therefore shouldn't be referred to as one, because it diminishes all others, intended or not.

What are you doing here then? Why do you keep coming here tu shut down some pricing discussion where's the world of issues out there?

Does not matter why. Why is anyone here. They speak a lot of truth, and that is all that really matters.

This thread will probably be closed, as it is starting to turn nasty, and that is a shame. The thread needs to stay open.

Did you just read only that first sentence? That was just a hyperbole to start my argument.

I know what the forums are for, I'm all for discussion, I just don't like people shutting down any criticism of anything and calling people whiners.

Morgha_Kul · September 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Make note of this: WE WANT THE GAME TO DO WELL.

So does ZOS, and the game IS doing extremely well, which to a large extent shows that they don't need any advice at all, nor deserve criticism.
Besides, we (you, me and everyone outside ZOS) lack the most basic data needed to make such assumptions, let alone give any advice.

heaven13 wrote: »

Many MANY people have given direct (as direct as you can get when comparing similar products in similar games) evidence on why they believe these items are overpriced and not just "wahhh, I don't want to pay".

1/ This is exactly why it is irrelevant : it refers to "similar games", not ESO.
2/ This is exactly what it is : "Wahhh I don't want to pay" in disguise. And this is what irks me.

When you go into a shop and find something you like, but it's too expensive in your opinion, what do you do ? Harass the vendor by explaning to him how he should price his stuff differently, how he should run his business, how unsocial and greedy he is ? Or do you simply leave the shop and go on your merry way ?

ZOS may want, need and ask for feedback when it comes to gameplay and game design. But pricing is their thing.

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The point is to make the pricing such that you maximize your happy customers and minimize your unhappy customers while still making a profit. My ADVICE is to do what will promote the growth and longevity of the company and the game. My (and so many others') frustration is evidence that their policy is NOT doing that.

Your frustration is evidence of nothing. You may as well be the occasional unhappy customer when most other people happily buy (or don't buy but are still happy players).

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Again, they're charging $15 for a Mars bar. That's not normal, and that level of greed is so drastic that it becomes a moral/ethical concern.

They aren't charging 15$ for a Mars Bar, they're charging 1500 crowns for an outfit slot for one character. Your analogy is manipulative, and calling it an ethical issue is totally out of place. It's their pricing policy, period.

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

There is so much stuff going on in the world that it helps no one to shut down conversations about any issue whether it is considered big or small by the listeners and speakers.

The world is full of big and small issues, and all of them deserve to be spoken about. The price of fluff in a video game is no issue at all and therefore shouldn't be referred to as one, because it diminishes all others, intended or not.

The game is doing well NOW. If you read what I posted, you'll notice I said they're sacrificing the future of the game to get a quick buck NOW.
I have data from which I can make reasoned conclusions, based on decades of experience in sales and marketing. I see a product which is offered by other companies. I see ESO charging VASTLY more for their product than any other company charges for theirs. It does not require any other data to know that overcharging for something is going to hinder its sales.

When I go into a shop and find something VASTLY overpriced, I might comment to the vendor. More likely, I'm just going to leave and not buy there. More, I'm likely to go to my friends, family, coworkers and so forth, and warn them not to shop there because they egregiously overprice their goods. THAT is what I was talking about before. My frustration (which mirrors that of MANY others) is evidence of unhappy customers.

They are charging $15 dollars for a product that costs $1.50 elsewhere. You do understand what an analogy is, don't you? Greed CAN be a moral/ethical concern. YOU may not be concerned by it, but MANY of us do. The prices they charge for their products are suggestive of considerable greed, which is why many of us are concerned.

You continue to try to dismiss the concerns of those you disagree with as trivial and not worth discussing. Clearly, that's not the truth, or this discussion would have ended long ago. I suggest you redirect your efforts to another goal, you're not going to convince anyone to stop talking about this, as it IS a concern to US, even if it isn't to you.

theplague4u · September 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

$1500 is almost my entire monthly income. Think about that. They expect that I should be able to pay for a subscription AND lay out anything approaching that? Is video gaming only for the extremely well off?

You don't have too, everything I bought was out of convenience. Dummies, stones, crafting stations, everything for RP that I might need. Also I share so if you want what I have, friend me and hang out at my place. It's just usually me, my merchant, banker, zombie dude, and animals around the property grounds. But I still die in pvp and pve like everyone else.

How much you have doesn't matter but having others to enjoy it with does. Having money doesn't make you happy or make you win. If anything you're doomed to lose as making friends is near impossible in RL since you're treated in a superior manner and not as an equal.

In the game I can have all the nice things but also with friends. Friends don't have to be physically manifested and gaming doesn't mean you're a loser as I've heard. It's an outlet for many to be someone they want but can't in RL. It's no different than a sport fan out doing sporting things, or a hunter/camper out doing outdoor stuff. It's a hobby and outlet. Some just have more money to do more with, but that's life.

Don't hate on those that have more than you, they're people too. Also don't hate the game for catering to those with money to help pay for the daily operations and salaries that makes it possible to have ESO.

I'm a vampire dark brotherhood assassin with my main residence at the Gold Coast region. I've only been playing ESO for 3 weeks so I'm a noob with lots to learn. I joined a relatively new guild that's a lot of fun without restrictions. So I can play how I want without being punished for breaking guild rules.

Money can't buy everything or take your problems away.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2019

theplague4u wrote: »

Having money doesn't make you happy or make you win. If anything you're doomed to lose as making friends is near impossible in RL since you're treated in a superior manner and not as an equal. .../...

Don't hate on those that have more than you, they're people too. Also don't hate the game for catering to those with money to help pay for the daily operations and salaries that makes it possible to have ESO.../...

Money can't buy everything or take your problems away.

Appreciated those testomonies.
I believe having money has far less negative sides than not having money, but it affects one significant aspect (loneliness) and (in spite of not having money myself) I appreciate you sharing this. Thank you !

Morgul667 · October 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

As I've said before, would you rather sell one item at $1000 or ten items at $100?

I've answered that one at least 10 times, so I won't do it again. Suffice to say that you only need to read a basic book about economics to realize that your reasoning works only if the price/demand elasticity of the product is 1. In other words, nothing tells you that a 10x lower price gives you a 10x higher sales volume.
ZOS has data to back up their own pricing decisions - which you don't. All you're doing is disguising your own frustration as a buyer as an "advice" for ZOS, which probably knows MUCH BETTER than you what's good for them and what's not.

Furthermore, you're (general you for people in this thread, maybe not you specifically) are making a moral judgement of it. STOP ! This isn't about anything vital like food & shelter, this is about a video game, and anyone not having it is not going to die, they're only going to be frustrated like children who cannot accept that they acn't have everything they want, right here and right now.

ZOS is REALLY fair when it comes to the crown store : nothing in there is mandatory to play and enjoy the game to the fullest, and the base game is practically free to play these days. So please stop the entitled whining.

Almost 40 years of sales experience tells me all I need to know about the economics of it. The numbers I used were for illustration (which I thought was obvious), and were not themselves the point. AGAIN, it's a point you seem to have missed. It's about the CUSTOMERS. If you have ticked off customers, they will spread their displeasure, to the detriment of your business. On the other hand, having happy customers will allow the business to grow.

The point is to make the pricing such that you maximize your happy customers and minimize your unhappy customers while still making a profit. My ADVICE is to do what will promote the growth and longevity of the company and the game. My (and so many others') frustration is evidence that their policy is NOT doing that.

There is actually a kind of moral dimension to this too, in that GREED is often regarded as a moral issue. Again, they're charging $15 for a Mars bar. That's not normal, and that level of greed is so drastic that it becomes a moral/ethical concern. In essence, if they're prepared to do THIS, how much further will they be willing to go? Where does the gouging end?

Fair is a matter of some opinion. Is it fair to charge $15 for a Mars bar? Is it fair to put so much of the most desirable content of a game we're already paying for behind outlandishly huge price walls, excluding much of the playerbase? You may think so. You're that one happy customer. There are nine unhappy customers who are going to undermine the business. THEY should be a concern.

Don't characterize any argument posed here as "whining." Infantilization is invalid argument. We have valid concerns, both for our own interests (of course), but also for the future of the game. Make note of this: WE WANT THE GAME TO DO WELL. We like it here. We grow concerned when they do things that will potentially harm the game's longevity, and we will complain when they do so.

This

Raideen · November 2019

Mark my words. If the current direction of the crown store stays its course, this g

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

So... I went over to Star Wars: The Old Republic Online, and looked to see how much it would cost for an outfit slot for a single character. It's 120 cartel coins.

Now, 250 cartel coins costs $2.99. That means a 120 cartel coins would cost around $1.50 (actually slightly less).

It is 1500 crowns for an outfit slot for a single character here at ESO. For me to get 1500 crowns costs $18.99.

So, in one game it's $1.50. Here, it's $18.99. That's rather a staggering difference for exactly the same service. To make it match up in value, they would need to make them around 150-200 crowns for a single character outfit slot. THAT I would be willing to pay. I'll never EVER pay that ridiculous price, more than 1200% higher than other games.

(that would be like paying about $15 for a Mars bar)

If I am not mistaken, the same lady that set up the SWTOR cash shop now works for eso. She took the crown store into turbo overdrive in regards to greed and pricing.

My fundamental issue with ESO is that as entertainment, it cost more than real life if you are player who is into collecting, achievements or role play.

Starlock · November 2019

Raideen wrote: »

My fundamental issue with ESO is that as entertainment, it cost more than real life if you are player who is into collecting, achievements or role play.

Yup.

All too often we see folks excusing industry practices when it comes to how they are monetizing their games, especially when those microtransactions are "just cosmetic." This overlooks and dismisses the importance aesthetics have to certain types of gamers and that their proclivities are being deliberately exploited so the company can make heaps of money. This game is unbelievably expensive if you place a big importance of aesthetics for roleplaying or simply for collecting. It's way beyond being about "well, companies need to make money" and very much into the "companies want all the money ever and will exploit their customers as much as they can get away with to do so" territory. Consumer protections are drafted and put into law because of precisely these sorts of things, and the days for which video game producers can get away with these rackets are numbered.

Raideen · November 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

My fundamental issue with ESO is that as entertainment, it cost more than real life if you are player who is into collecting, achievements or role play.

Yup.

All too often we see folks excusing industry practices when it comes to how they are monetizing their games, especially when those microtransactions are "just cosmetic." This overlooks and dismisses the importance aesthetics have to certain types of gamers and that their proclivities are being deliberately exploited so the company can make heaps of money. This game is unbelievably expensive if you place a big importance of aesthetics for roleplaying or simply for collecting. It's way beyond being about "well, companies need to make money" and very much into the "companies want all the money ever and will exploit their customers as much as they can get away with to do so" territory. Consumer protections are drafted and put into law because of precisely these sorts of things, and the days for which video game producers can get away with these rackets are numbered.

^ 100%

A player who is into homes, mounts, and outfits (role playing...or just likes to collect) could easily instead purchase a mild hi fidelity audio set up that will last decades. A single crown exclusive house with 2 motifs and a couple of outfit slots will get your started on a stellar set of cookware that again, will last for decades. I have spent more in this game then I did for my custom leather sofa that is 5 years old now and looks brand new. In game related terms the price of a house in eso which functionally has very little use could get you 3-4 GOOD game titles at retail prices. Go indi and you could pick up 6-8 games.

And don't even get me started on the customer abuse. There is not another industry in the world that can take advantage of customers like video game companies are now. Its really sad because developers are asked now to make games where fun takes the back seat. The good news is people are waking up, its not hard to see it. Just look at your bank account draining to have "fun" in this game and its obvious what is going on.

Starlock · November 2019

Raideen wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

My fundamental issue with ESO is that as entertainment, it cost more than real life if you are player who is into collecting, achievements or role play.

Yup.

All too often we see folks excusing industry practices when it comes to how they are monetizing their games, especially when those microtransactions are "just cosmetic." This overlooks and dismisses the importance aesthetics have to certain types of gamers and that their proclivities are being deliberately exploited so the company can make heaps of money. This game is unbelievably expensive if you place a big importance of aesthetics for roleplaying or simply for collecting. It's way beyond being about "well, companies need to make money" and very much into the "companies want all the money ever and will exploit their customers as much as they can get away with to do so" territory. Consumer protections are drafted and put into law because of precisely these sorts of things, and the days for which video game producers can get away with these rackets are numbered.

^ 100%

A player who is into homes, mounts, and outfits (role playing...or just likes to collect) could easily instead purchase a mild hi fidelity audio set up that will last decades. A single crown exclusive house with 2 motifs and a couple of outfit slots will get your started on a stellar set of cookware that again, will last for decades. I have spent more in this game then I did for my custom leather sofa that is 5 years old now and looks brand new. In game related terms the price of a house in eso which functionally has very little use could get you 3-4 GOOD game titles at retail prices. Go indi and you could pick up 6-8 games.

And don't even get me started on the customer abuse. There is not another industry in the world that can take advantage of customers like video game companies are now. Its really sad because developers are asked now to make games where fun takes the back seat. The good news is people are waking up, its not hard to see it. Just look at your bank account draining to have "fun" in this game and its obvious what is going on.

The wool has certainly been pulled off of my eyes. I owe someone on this board for that - and the content creator they linked to that has produced many videos going into the predatory marketing of video games over the last console generation or so. If I didn't have a background in social sciences, I might have dismissed it, but I instantly recognized the heuristics and conditioning mechanics that were being described. I felt stupid that I didn't recognize it earlier, but that's how psychological manipulation works. The victim doesn't notice it for a long time, if ever. And I'm someone who tends to be very mindful of market manipulations. These things are designed in ways that work in different ways on different people. The worst thing is, they absolutely do this on purpose. They absolutely know what they are doing.

Consumer protection laws need to catch up with the digital age. Hopefully within the next couple decades or so the sorts of things we are seeing now will be illegal. As they should be. I watch the disgusting debacle that is Fallout 76 and wonder when ESO will be as poisoned as that model has become. "Hey, here a subscription... and an exclusive cosmetic you need a subscription for that you need to PAY FOR on top of your sub." Seriously? Mark my words, it's coming next to this game. ESO crown store exclusives that you must pay for to be able to pay for. Because why the hell not with these companies, right?

PopotoSalad · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

So... I went over to Star Wars: The Old Republic Online, and looked to see how much it would cost for an outfit slot for a single character. It's 120 cartel coins.

Now, 250 cartel coins costs $2.99. That means a 120 cartel coins would cost around $1.50 (actually slightly less).

It is 1500 crowns for an outfit slot for a single character here at ESO. For me to get 1500 crowns costs $18.99.

So, in one game it's $1.50. Here, it's $18.99. That's rather a staggering difference for exactly the same service. To make it match up in value, they would need to make them around 150-200 crowns for a single character outfit slot. THAT I would be willing to pay. I'll never EVER pay that ridiculous price, more than 1200% higher than other games.

(that would be like paying about $15 for a Mars bar)

FF14 gives you the max amount of slots, somewhere around a dozen, free from the get-go.

apri · November 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

the base game is practically free to play these days.

ESO is to the very day a pay-to-play game, not a "practically free to play" game. It has free guest events, it has discounts but nothing changed in the core design or the way ESO is marketed as a pay-to-play game.

All the stuff ESO throws on top with their crown store, ESO+, DLCs and chapters including the pricing they set just shows that the company behind the game tries to make the most profit out of the game as possible. It mixes up all the various forms of monetization in the market and brings them together in one game. It's up to them to do it, it's up to us to agree with it or not and to make our own decisions upon that.

If we consider this practice fair or not is on us. You may consider it fair, others may see it differently for their own respectable reasons.

Araneae6537 · November 2019

apri wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

the base game is practically free to play these days.

ESO is to the very day a pay-to-play game, not a "practically free to play" game. It has free guest events, it has discounts but nothing changed in the core design or the way ESO is marketed as a pay-to-play game.

All the stuff ESO throws on top with their crown store, ESO+, DLCs and chapters including the pricing they set just shows that the company behind the game tries to make the most profit out of the game as possible. It mixes up all the various forms of monetization in the market and brings them together in one game. It's up to them to do it, it's up to us to agree with it or not and to make our own decisions upon that.

If we consider this practice fair or not is on us. You may consider it fair, others may see it differently for their own respectable reasons.

Agreed. The base game of GW2 has been completely F2P for a long time now and on top of that, there is no subscription and most cash shop options cost comparatively less. The expansions do cost money but are less frequent than ESO’s chapters (presumeably because they have less capital without subs? they do release small DLC’s which are free so long as you log in during the time period it is released). Anyway, my point is that ESO costs a lot more relatively.

I am fine with the subscription model but I don’t like how much many of the cash shop options cost comparatively, and especially all the Gem-exclusive stuff. Obviously, there are many things I love about ESO and that’s why I’m here.

I keep repeating myself, and I don’t know why... Obviously if the prices are fine for enough people there is no reason for ZOS to charge less for any of these things.

Karius_Imalthar · November 2019

At first I was thinking the math was way off then I realized this means outfit slots for all possible character slots.

MamaDruid · November 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

My fundamental issue with ESO is that as entertainment, it cost more than real life if you are player who is into collecting, achievements or role play.

Yup.

All too often we see folks excusing industry practices when it comes to how they are monetizing their games, especially when those microtransactions are "just cosmetic." This overlooks and dismisses the importance aesthetics have to certain types of gamers and that their proclivities are being deliberately exploited so the company can make heaps of money. This game is unbelievably expensive if you place a big importance of aesthetics for roleplaying or simply for collecting. It's way beyond being about "well, companies need to make money" and very much into the "companies want all the money ever and will exploit their customers as much as they can get away with to do so" territory. Consumer protections are drafted and put into law because of precisely these sorts of things, and the days for which video game producers can get away with these rackets are numbered.

^ 100%

A player who is into homes, mounts, and outfits (role playing...or just likes to collect) could easily instead purchase a mild hi fidelity audio set up that will last decades. A single crown exclusive house with 2 motifs and a couple of outfit slots will get your started on a stellar set of cookware that again, will last for decades. I have spent more in this game then I did for my custom leather sofa that is 5 years old now and looks brand new. In game related terms the price of a house in eso which functionally has very little use could get you 3-4 GOOD game titles at retail prices. Go indi and you could pick up 6-8 games.

And don't even get me started on the customer abuse. There is not another industry in the world that can take advantage of customers like video game companies are now. Its really sad because developers are asked now to make games where fun takes the back seat. The good news is people are waking up, its not hard to see it. Just look at your bank account draining to have "fun" in this game and its obvious what is going on.

The wool has certainly been pulled off of my eyes. I owe someone on this board for that - and the content creator they linked to that has produced many videos going into the predatory marketing of video games over the last console generation or so.

@Starlock - Do you feel comfortable sharing that link?

OrdoHermetica · November 2019

MamaDruid wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

My fundamental issue with ESO is that as entertainment, it cost more than real life if you are player who is into collecting, achievements or role play.

Yup.

All too often we see folks excusing industry practices when it comes to how they are monetizing their games, especially when those microtransactions are "just cosmetic." This overlooks and dismisses the importance aesthetics have to certain types of gamers and that their proclivities are being deliberately exploited so the company can make heaps of money. This game is unbelievably expensive if you place a big importance of aesthetics for roleplaying or simply for collecting. It's way beyond being about "well, companies need to make money" and very much into the "companies want all the money ever and will exploit their customers as much as they can get away with to do so" territory. Consumer protections are drafted and put into law because of precisely these sorts of things, and the days for which video game producers can get away with these rackets are numbered.

^ 100%

A player who is into homes, mounts, and outfits (role playing...or just likes to collect) could easily instead purchase a mild hi fidelity audio set up that will last decades. A single crown exclusive house with 2 motifs and a couple of outfit slots will get your started on a stellar set of cookware that again, will last for decades. I have spent more in this game then I did for my custom leather sofa that is 5 years old now and looks brand new. In game related terms the price of a house in eso which functionally has very little use could get you 3-4 GOOD game titles at retail prices. Go indi and you could pick up 6-8 games.

And don't even get me started on the customer abuse. There is not another industry in the world that can take advantage of customers like video game companies are now. Its really sad because developers are asked now to make games where fun takes the back seat. The good news is people are waking up, its not hard to see it. Just look at your bank account draining to have "fun" in this game and its obvious what is going on.

The wool has certainly been pulled off of my eyes. I owe someone on this board for that - and the content creator they linked to that has produced many videos going into the predatory marketing of video games over the last console generation or so.

@Starlock - Do you feel comfortable sharing that link?

They're most likely referring to Jim Sterling. Jim's very much an acquired taste, but he does good work, and he's relentless. He's been digging into this for years now (so hard to link to a single video), and shows no sign of slowing down. I highly recommend you give his stuff a look, and if he rubs you the wrong way at first, I'd encourage you to stick with him for a bit. His style grows on you, or at least it did with me.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JimSterling

MamaDruid · November 2019

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

They're most likely referring to Jim Sterling. Jim's very much an acquired taste, but he does good work, and he's relentless. He's been digging into this for years now (so hard to link to a single video), and shows no sign of slowing down. I highly recommend you give his stuff a look, and if he rubs you the wrong way at first, I'd encourage you to stick with him for a bit. His style grows on you, or at least it did with me.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JimSterling

This is great! Thank you.

Starlock · November 2019

MamaDruid wrote: »

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

They're most likely referring to Jim Sterling. Jim's very much an acquired taste, but he does good work, and he's relentless. He's been digging into this for years now (so hard to link to a single video), and shows no sign of slowing down. I highly recommend you give his stuff a look, and if he rubs you the wrong way at first, I'd encourage you to stick with him for a bit. His style grows on you, or at least it did with me.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JimSterling

This is great! Thank you.

Yes, that’s one of them. There are several others who comment on the general issue as well, though.

OrdoHermetica · November 2019

Starlock wrote: »

MamaDruid wrote: »

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

They're most likely referring to Jim Sterling. Jim's very much an acquired taste, but he does good work, and he's relentless. He's been digging into this for years now (so hard to link to a single video), and shows no sign of slowing down. I highly recommend you give his stuff a look, and if he rubs you the wrong way at first, I'd encourage you to stick with him for a bit. His style grows on you, or at least it did with me.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JimSterling

This is great! Thank you.

Yes, that’s one of them. There are several others who comment on the general issue as well, though.

This is true. YongYea also comes to mind, as does Angry Joe, at least to some extent.

Spearpoint · November 2019

Regarding the OP.. I might not get it, but why would people need/want 8 more outfit slots on their characters?

OrdoHermetica · November 2019

Sandnessen wrote: »

Regarding the OP.. I might not get it, but why would people need/want 8 more outfit slots on their characters?

Why would people want more than one character? Why would people want more than one house? Why would people want more than one mount? Why would people want more than one pet? Why would people want more than one costume? Why would people want to play more than one Alliance?

Different people value different things in the game. For everything I listed up there, there are some people who care about them, and some who don't. Plenty of people with all characters in one Alliance and no desire to have characters in other Alliances, plenty of people who don't have alts, plenty of people who maybe got the free apartments but never bothered with anything else, etc. Some people have lots of neat outfit ideas for their characters, and would love to have enough slots for all of them. It's cool that you don't personally have any interest in it, but others clearly do. And that's valid.

kaisernick · December 2019

heaven13 wrote: »

Many MANY people have given direct (as direct as you can get when comparing similar products in similar games) evidence on why they believe these items are overpriced and not just "wahhh, I don't want to pay".

1/ This is exactly why it is irrelevant : it refers to "similar games", not ESO.
2/ This is exactly what it is : "Wahhh I don't want to pay" in disguise. And this is what irks me.

When you go into a shop and find something you like, but it's too expensive in your opinion, what do you do ? Harass the vendor by explaning to him how he should price his stuff differently, how he should run his business, how unsocial and greedy he is ? Or do you simply leave the shop and go on your merry way ?

ZOS may want, need and ask for feedback when it comes to gameplay and game design. But pricing is their thing.

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The point is to make the pricing such that you maximize your happy customers and minimize your unhappy customers while still making a profit. My ADVICE is to do what will promote the growth and longevity of the company and the game. My (and so many others') frustration is evidence that their policy is NOT doing that.

Your frustration is evidence of nothing. You may as well be the occasional unhappy customer when most other people happily buy (or don't buy but are still happy players).

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Again, they're charging $15 for a Mars bar. That's not normal, and that level of greed is so drastic that it becomes a moral/ethical concern.

They aren't charging 15$ for a Mars Bar, they're charging 1500 crowns for an outfit slot for one character. Your analogy is manipulative, and calling it an ethical issue is totally out of place. It's their pricing policy, period.

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

There is so much stuff going on in the world that it helps no one to shut down conversations about any issue whether it is considered big or small by the listeners and speakers.

The world is full of big and small issues, and all of them deserve to be spoken about. The price of fluff in a video game is no issue at all and therefore shouldn't be referred to as one, because it diminishes all others, intended or not.

[/quote]
As someone who works in Retail i can tell you that people DO have a go when they think something is overpriced and normally itsa at the workers who have ZERO say on the issue.

I also know that in retail the higer up still like to know if something is considerd overpriced and off putting and they want to generate sales and if one player doesnt buy from the crown store because of the price of outfit slots that can often be enougth for most retailers.

Also while the marsbar anaolgy may not be a good one retail uses price comparason as do shoppers and if a MMO has similar features to ESO and has a cheaper sysem for outfits like this they may go there.

The point is feedback even on pricing is important to any buisness and even if Zeni ignore and change nothing they will still apprechate the feedback.

OneForSorrow · December 2019

I pay for ESO + because I want to and yet even I can't ever bring myself to get even one upgrade slot because the cost just doesn't seem worth it.

I do wish ESO had managed to stay subscription-based, I feel like the health of the game's reward systems would have been greatly improved.

TigressCreed · January 2020

The idea behind the outfit system at its core was amazing I love being able to wear heavy armour but appear to be wearing light, etc. BUT once again money hunger ruined it with outrageous prices for outfit styles and it’s pretty ridiculous it costs up to 6k gold to choose a staff style...I often pay 15-20k gold to rearrange my outfit.

Unseelie · January 2020

So, just going to ask if we have ever established whether it is account wide or not?

TigressCreed wrote: »

The idea behind the outfit system at its core was amazing I love being able to wear heavy armour but appear to be wearing light, etc. BUT once again money hunger ruined it with outrageous prices for outfit styles and it’s pretty ridiculous it costs up to 6k gold to choose a staff style...I often pay 15-20k gold to rearrange my outfit.

It definitely can get expensive but every game has their gold sinks, and to be honest once you hit a point in this game there are not alot of them and gold becomes just a thing.