are DLC dungeons dead at this point?

Wing · December 2019

I don't do vet DLC dungeons, the TLDR is that I simply find them too hard and not fun, and its getting to the point that I don't even bother to run them once on normal because why even?

(the longer is I kind of already did my time of meta chasing, small man, time trial, leaderboard, sweat fest in another MMO and im just not about that life anymore, on top of it not being fun in ESO)

that said I do watch guild stores and what not for motifs if I want them, and you know what?

nothing. . .

been checking major trade hubs daily and have not seen a single page of the new motifs, maybe I might have seen one but I just cannot remember at this point, and im sure it was probably priced in the 100's of thousands due to scarcity because. . .

nobody is doing this content.

cry all you want about get gud, or whatever, but it does suck to see so much development time and effort, encounter design, new rewards in cosmetics, motifs, skins, armor sets, monster sets, etc. all for nothing.

going to a dungeon that only about 1% will play for a few runs, until they get the monster set if its relevant, and then never touch again. (the % amount is actually less then that, completions of older DLC dungeons were only around 2-3% of the player base and that number has only declined)

people go out of their way to avoid them, advertising in zone "non DLC dungeons" only running group finder on sub 50 characters as DLC dungeons to not enter the queue until you hit 50, simply dropping group if they get a DLC dungeon.

yup, people are going out of their way to avoid content, I would not even buy them if not for just being included in ESO plus, and I know MANY are in the same boat.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert

Raisin · December 2019

The reason the new motifs aren't in guildstores is because they're bugged.

For a good amount of the playerbase, running DLC dungeons and achievement hunting within them are still the cream of the crop of ESO content, so no worries.

But yeah, a lot of people actively avoid going into PVP so let's get rid of PVP plz

ArchMikem · December 2019

I just tonight PuGed vet Fang Lair.

MLGProPlayer · December 2019

"I don't do X content so let's get rid of it"

redspecter23 · December 2019

Vet DLC dungeons have a place. If you want a challenge or to earn achievements or if you want the helmet. I'd just run normal if I were to be farming the gear set pieces

However, I think they are absolutely pointless for pledges. If you have alts, you're better off just swapping to an alt and run the two non DLC pledges again if you just want keys and undaunted favor. It's much faster especially if you're relying on puglets in the queue. Running a vet DLC "because it's the pledge" might work every once in a while, but I can't see it being efficient on a daily basis. You're probably just wasting your time for what will end up being only a single key 95% of the time.

Wing · December 2019

Raisin wrote: »

The reason the new motifs aren't in guildstores is because they're bugged.

For a good amount of the playerbase, running DLC dungeons and achievement hunting within them are still the cream of the crop of ESO content, so no worries.

But yeah, a lot of people actively avoid going into PVP so let's get rid of PVP plz

pvp has not received a content update in years (bridges don't count) and has been on the forefront of ESO's declining performance for just as long.

really hard to watch pvp streams because everyone is just disappointed and mad.

I have been around long enough to see the absolute rage when pvp gets a content update and pve gets nothing (IC) so yeah, dungeons are not even close.

I think the devs kind of know this now though, I suspect its why dragonhold did not have dungeons.

Raisin · December 2019

Wing wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

The reason the new motifs aren't in guildstores is because they're bugged.

For a good amount of the playerbase, running DLC dungeons and achievement hunting within them are still the cream of the crop of ESO content, so no worries.

But yeah, a lot of people actively avoid going into PVP so let's get rid of PVP plz

pvp has not received a content update in years (bridges don't count) and has been on the forefront of ESO's declining performance for just as long.

really hard to watch pvp streams because everyone is just disappointed and mad.

I have been around long enough to see the absolute rage when pvp gets a content update and pve gets nothing (IC) so yeah, dungeons are not even close.

I think the devs kind of know this now though, I suspect its why dragonhold did not have dungeons.

The reason Dragonhold didn't have any dungeons is because ZOS has a certain pattern they follow where they release X amount of Dungeon DLC, then a story DLC, etc. It's almost like they know players like different content and cater to their different audiences.

MattT1988 · December 2019

Getting really tired of people pulling this “only 1% of the playerbase run them” figure out of their arses. Got any hard data to back those numbers up?

I love these dungeons and I know a stack of people who agree. If you don’t like them, don’t do them, but leave them alone for those of us who really enjoy them.

MLGProPlayer · December 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

Getting really tired of people pulling this “only 1% of the playerbase run them” figure out of their arses. Got any hard data to back those numbers up?

I love these dungeons and I know a stack of people who agree. If you don’t like them, don’t do them, but leave them alone for those of us who really enjoy them.

These same posters would be on here tomorrow complaining about ESO's lack of content compared to other MMOs if ZOS stopped releasing new dungeons.

They're just complaining for the sake of complaining.

oddbasket · December 2019

They're not totally dead. The likelihood of getting a group through activity finder is quite high but only when it's the pledge for the day, otherwise it doesn't pop.

As far as dungeon motifs go, players are anticipating them flooding the guild stores for cheap during new life festival given last year's experience.

idk · December 2019

The DLC dungeons is among the content Zos has added to the game. Zos is aware that well developed group content like the DLC dungeons is a cornerstone of a good MMORPG.

They offer a great challenge for people who are interested in it and an easier version for those want to play at an easier pace.

Wing wrote: »

nobody is doing this content.

The statement I quoted is clearly false and reflects on the entire post. Players do run DLC dungeons. That is a fact.

BaiterOfZergs · December 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

Getting really tired of people pulling this “only 1% of the playerbase run them” figure out of their arses. Got any hard data to back those numbers up?

I love these dungeons and I know a stack of people who agree. If you don’t like them, don’t do them, but leave them alone for those of us who really enjoy them.

Zos themselves said people don’t complete the content not too long ago. That’s one of the reasons they are focusing on attracting new players more than keeping old players.

idk · December 2019

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Getting really tired of people pulling this “only 1% of the playerbase run them” figure out of their arses. Got any hard data to back those numbers up?

I love these dungeons and I know a stack of people who agree. If you don’t like them, don’t do them, but leave them alone for those of us who really enjoy them.

Zos themselves said people don’t complete the content not too long ago. That’s one of the reasons they are focusing on attracting new players more than keeping old players.

Pls link source as this makes no sense.

We know players are completing content because it is discussed in the forums. Players ask questions about fights or mention bugs or issues they are having with the fights. I think there is a misunderstanding of what Zos said and it is being taken out of context.

MattT1988 · December 2019

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Getting really tired of people pulling this “only 1% of the playerbase run them” figure out of their arses. Got any hard data to back those numbers up?

I love these dungeons and I know a stack of people who agree. If you don’t like them, don’t do them, but leave them alone for those of us who really enjoy them.

Zos themselves said people don’t complete the content not too long ago. That’s one of the reasons they are focusing on attracting new players more than keeping old players.

Link please, and it needs to include the statistic of “1% of players complete this content” for it to be acceptable for the OP’s argument.

buttaface · December 2019

Agree with OP. It's not that they are "hard," but that they are "fake hard." As in "learn the script" hard as in "arcade game hard" "console level hard" and not "PC game hard" or "tactical combat hard."

I am not keeping a *** spreadsheet or notebook to refer back to 100 different bosses, miscellaneous side games, pad standing and lever pulling straight, and that's from a perspective of someone who has been playing these games for decades, a serious raider going back 20 years. That shark was jumped long ago after a few years of people burning out on WOW. I expect modern games to cultivate a set of skills in players and then those skills and not SCRIPTS are generally used to do the content. ESO gets a flat F in that department, and would wager tens of thousands of the player base agree, forum cheerleaders notwithstanding.

And yeah, demand "proof" that only a tiny % of players do the content when every one posting here has pugged into a random normal Frostvault and watched the team instantly dissolve, likely many times. Don't lie and say you haven't. So other than the vocal forumites and fanbois, no, a majority of players do not do this content.

In better, more popular games, Warframe as one of many possible examples, they BOOT content or rework it when only a small percentage of players do or complete it. No idea why investors haven't stepped in and done the same in this game, it is costing them serious money.

To make a rant constructive, this would be so easy to fix. Strip out ALL the gotcha sidegames, one shots, etc. from ALL dungeons, regular and DLC, dumb them down, and reserve those for a hard mode that is selected at the start and must be selected by all team members, and trials. None of the gear in the DLC dungeons is as good as trial gear anyway, so no need for the tryhards to gripe if the average player base can have access to it. It's a no brainer this would improve the game and the number of players doing that content would skyrocket.

It's a game that people pay for. I dread to think how many of the typical player base I pug tank for daily buy DLCs thinking they will be "fun" who have no hope of completing them.

BaiterOfZergs · December 2019

I don’t care about who’s completing or not completing content, I’m just saying what the devs said in regards to the content. I’m quite neutral to the topic.

AndyMac · December 2019

I pug vet DLCs on the regular. Granted the dps wait can be lengthy but I dont seem to have problems getting a group who can clear.

They’re one of the most fun things in the game imo. I would go so far as to say that the newer vet DLC dungeons on non hm are some of the best designed and tuned content in the game.

MattT1988 · December 2019

buttaface wrote: »

I am not keeping a *** spreadsheet or notebook to refer back to 100 different bosses, miscellaneous side games, pad standing and lever pulling straight.

What are you talking about when it comes to this? Literally no one I know that regularly does vet DLC dungeons does this. Nobody.

idk · December 2019

I agree with Matt.

It is mostly being able to recognize what you are seeing. Notice the tells for the mechanic. Most of these mechanics are used elsewhere in the game so they do become easier to recognize for players who do content regularly.

I would rather have a fight with mechanics that require players to be engaged and paying attention vs mind numbing stack and burn fights with firm DPS requirements.

Raisin · December 2019

idk wrote: »

I agree with Matt.

It is mostly being able to recognize what you are seeing. Notice the tells for the mechanic. Most of these mechanics are used elsewhere in the game so they do become easier to recognize for players who do content regularly.

I would rather have a fight with mechanics that require players to be engaged and paying attention vs mind numbing stack and burn fights with firm DPS requirements.

The first bit is also what's exciting about new dungeons for players. You have an understanding for how the game tries to teach you thinks and certain tells, so you go in blind into a new dungeon and try to understand the mechanics by intuition. I won't claim this is the most accessible way to go about it, but that's why normal dungeons are forgiving and NPCs teach you stuff. It's understanding the game and using that feeling for how things work to figure out mechanic that's so fun. After that the enjoyment comes more from mastering the content I think.

kargen27 · December 2019

Wing wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

The reason the new motifs aren't in guildstores is because they're bugged.

For a good amount of the playerbase, running DLC dungeons and achievement hunting within them are still the cream of the crop of ESO content, so no worries.

But yeah, a lot of people actively avoid going into PVP so let's get rid of PVP plz

pvp has not received a content update in years (bridges don't count) and has been on the forefront of ESO's declining performance for just as long.

really hard to watch pvp streams because everyone is just disappointed and mad.

I have been around long enough to see the absolute rage when pvp gets a content update and pve gets nothing (IC) so yeah, dungeons are not even close.

I think the devs kind of know this now though, I suspect its why dragonhold did not have dungeons.

More content would be bad for PvP. PvP needs players concentrated in one area to work well. That is why there are choke points in Cyrodiil. Spreading out an already thin PvP population isn't a good idea.

idk · December 2019

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I agree with Matt.

It is mostly being able to recognize what you are seeing. Notice the tells for the mechanic. Most of these mechanics are used elsewhere in the game so they do become easier to recognize for players who do content regularly.

I would rather have a fight with mechanics that require players to be engaged and paying attention vs mind numbing stack and burn fights with firm DPS requirements.

The first bit is also what's exciting about new dungeons for players. You have an understanding for how the game tries to teach you thinks and certain tells, so you go in blind into a new dungeon and try to understand the mechanics by intuition. I won't claim this is the most accessible way to go about it, but that's why normal dungeons are forgiving and NPCs teach you stuff. It's understanding the game and using that feeling for how things work to figure out mechanic that's so fun. After that the enjoyment comes more from mastering the content I think.

Your post reminded me of how I liked Moon Hunter's Keep as it required everyone to pay attention and be ready to interrupt. I am used to it as a tank but these fights require the dps to pay attention. Sadly we had a stam melee pug one time that said they did not have an interrupt which demonstrated that some people lack a very basic understanding of the game.

Going beyond that, players who are less comfortable with playing their character are more likely to have tunnel vision on their skill bar and miss tell tales of the mechanics or even what is happening around them. Sadly I have seen it, where a player stands in red or missing the telegraph from the boss they needed to block or more.

Mayrael · December 2019

Personally I don't do them because mostly it ends in waste of the time when you try to do them with randoms... I'm not very sociable person, I prefer to use GF to do dungs. When GF doens't provide me what I need I simply ignore it.

For me, it would the most ideal solution would be solo mode for dungs, similar in difficulty to VMA or even a bit harder but without all those "group checks". Id love to have more legitimate challanges for solo players.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

No, they are not dead, they are imo best PVE part of the game. Problem is that like any content after completing them several times there is no incentive to do that again... as was discussed many times, vDLC pledge should have higher rewards. At least something like 2 keys/2+ transmutes for non-HM and 3 keys/4+ transmutes for HM.
As for now if you want to farm keys and have multiple toons it's faster and easier to do fast and easy pledges on several toons then complete vDLC ones.

essi2 · December 2019

Pugging vDLC is too much of a risk and fails far too often.

nDLC is pretty easy usually though, I do them atleast for the skill point.

Raisin · December 2019

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I agree with Matt.

It is mostly being able to recognize what you are seeing. Notice the tells for the mechanic. Most of these mechanics are used elsewhere in the game so they do become easier to recognize for players who do content regularly.

I would rather have a fight with mechanics that require players to be engaged and paying attention vs mind numbing stack and burn fights with firm DPS requirements.

The first bit is also what's exciting about new dungeons for players. You have an understanding for how the game tries to teach you thinks and certain tells, so you go in blind into a new dungeon and try to understand the mechanics by intuition. I won't claim this is the most accessible way to go about it, but that's why normal dungeons are forgiving and NPCs teach you stuff. It's understanding the game and using that feeling for how things work to figure out mechanic that's so fun. After that the enjoyment comes more from mastering the content I think.

Your post reminded me of how I liked Moon Hunter's Keep as it required everyone to pay attention and be ready to interrupt. I am used to it as a tank but these fights require the dps to pay attention. Sadly we had a stam melee pug one time that said they did not have an interrupt which demonstrated that some people lack a very basic understanding of the game.

Going beyond that, players who are less comfortable with playing their character are more likely to have tunnel vision on their skill bar and miss tell tales of the mechanics or even what is happening around them. Sadly I have seen it, where a player stands in red or missing the telegraph from the boss they needed to block or more.

MHK was one if my first favorite hard modes. Was just fun.

But yeah, I always forget that the NPCs really help you out with mechanics. It's a shame because I think it's a great way to handle the situation, but clearly it's not working well.
In my opinion, that's why all discussions about this kind of content and players participating in it always comes back to how the game struggles to teach player how to actually be good at the game.

Aznarb · December 2019

LoM are the only DLC I find bad on his design difficulty.
They're is no real mechanic, it's juste about "do 40k+ or don't do it"

Moongrave is a good one cuz it's all about mech and their is literaly no excuse to not succed if you learn how it work, that what I call a good design.
DPS check "strat" are an horrible and lazy game design imho.
It wouldn't have been a problem if the gap between average and good player wasn't that huge and the population capable of doing it so low.

I'm lucky, DPS on my guild have improve a lot and can pull more than 70k, but in pug that another story.
When I play with the oldman of my guild, he can't do LA spamming due to his physical condition but he still can pull 30k+ w/o that.
But it's not enough for many hm cuz it to much DPS based and it's a shame.

Make healer and tank more needed in mechanic so DPS can relaxe a bit.
The powercreep in DPS is what make DLC be more and more stupid about DPS requierement.
A minimal DPS should be requiered for vet and hm, ofc, but atm in some it's just to high for the majority of player, same for trial and it limite way to much the theory-crafting (but that another story).

So I agree with OP that few vet DLC+HM are very bad but I totally disagree to get ride of them.
Just hope the next would be more accessible to the majority.

(sorry for grammar and typo)

precambria · December 2019

I do those all the time, and nothing I like more than to help people through content so if you queue for it you might be suprize ^--^

shimm · December 2019

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers
Normal mazzatun 1.54% of gamers
Normal Scalecaller peak .96% of gamers
Normal Fang Lair 1.00% of gamers

Maybe someone on PlayStation can post some numbers? I think it tracks things the same way...

OP pretty close with their 1% statement.

Curious_Death · December 2019

Hi,
Buffs are the anwser ! they nerfed DD's soo hard that ppl gave up doing vet-DLC's coz:
A) Healer or Tank give up with low DD's
B)Battle take too much time and adds overwhelm battle.
C) A and B at once!

Grianasteri · December 2019

Most people are not undertaking DLC dungeons on a regular basis, with Vet DLC being even less frequented. It is also fair to say that most people who do undertake normal or vet DLC dungeons, are doing so mainly for gear, in particular Monster Helms with Vet DLC - and once that gear is acquired will be unlikely to revisit the dungeon other than to help friends/guildies.

The reason of course is that most of the DLC dungeons are significantly more challenging than the average base game dungeons, by design, its on purpose. This is positive, not something to complain about. It provides progression in difficulty of dungeons and a challenge for more capable players and groups.

There are for instance some DLC dungeons that it is very rare to find a pug capable of completion. Why should it be? The dungeons are being designed with teamwork, knowledge of the mechs, high dps in mind, specifically to provide progression from base game normal and vet dungeons.

This can make for some frustrating experiences and grinds for gear, but on balance the challenge available is positive. I also think it is positive that not just anyone can jump into a pug and get some of the best gear in the game.

I would say the progression is (not including hard modes):

Base game normal
Base game vet
DLC normal
DLC vet

Base game vet and DLC normal can be similar and some bosses and mechs can be more challenging or easy in either. Normal Forstvault for instance, I would say is more difficult than Fungal Grotto vet.

I find I am unsure what the OP is actually asking for or suggesting. I mean DLC dungeons are hard and therefore not many people run them regularly. Fine. So what?