are DLC dungeons dead at this point?

Odovacar

For me I love a good challenge, so to my little clique they're still relevant. DLC dungeons aren't for everyone and that's ok. We all play ESO to have fun so get it how you like.

BejaProphet

Btw,

I am FOR,

1.) There being a random queue with AND without DLC dungeons. Options are always good.

2.) Monster helms being tradable. This gives those who love the dungeons a new way to profit from them, and it gives those who don’t a new way to acquire the gear. Win win.

I am AGAINST,

1.). Saying the developers should not be making these dungeons. Hard content is vital to the health of the game.

2.) Hyperbolic language claiming that people are forced to play hard content. They aren’t. If people wouldn’t speak with such silly exaggerations I’d probably love many of their actual suggestions.

I just wanted to clarify that I’m not against choices and other views just because I’m arguing against the rants.

AlnilamE

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

I never said the game doesn’t heavily reward running vDLCs. I said it doesn’t force you, and it doesn’t. You’re not required to run vDLC to clear vTrials. You’re not required to run vDLCs to PvP effectively.

There is no gate to trials or PvP held within vDLCs.

It does. Because you won't be competitive without them. This is a gate that you yourself acknowledged as good and healthy for the game until you realized that it was inconvenient to your "no force" argument.

In video games, especially online multiplayers, those kinds of heavy rewards is how developers force people into doing content they don't want to do. It's a common tactic to keep people at a good level of progression and engaging in a variety of content. This keeps players interacting with one another and helps to keep healthy amount of players in all the different types of content.

There is nothing wrong with it. Just like there is nothing wrong with players accurately describing the force they feel to play content they don't enjoy.

Yeah, but if you don't have the skill and patience to get through a vet dungeon, what exactly are you going to be competitive in?

You might as well either wait for the Golden or just make a build that doesn't require a monster helm (particularly one from a DLC dungeon.)

FierceSam

BejaProphet wrote: »

Btw,


I am AGAINST,

2.) Hyperbolic language claiming that people are forced to play hard content. They aren’t. If people wouldn’t speak with such silly exaggerations I’d probably love many of their actual suggestions.

It should always be each player’s choice what content they do.

Players who subscribe to ESO+ have all DLC dungeons included in their random queues, in contrast to non-subscribers who don’t. They have no option to choose to have the same random selection as non-subscribers, which does lead some of them to be sent into DLC dungeon content whether they like it or not. This is forcing them into something they don’t want to do, unlike someone who doesn’t like dungeons and goes to, say vet Vaults of Madness because they want a Grothdar hat, where they are choosing to do content they don’t like because they want the reward.

It may seem like splitting hairs, but there is a difference and it’s not a silly exaggeration, because being thrown into DLC content when you’re not ready for it is not a fun experience in any way. It certainly did nothing for me when I was learning the game. My solution would be to allow ESO subscribers the option of not having DLC dungeons in their random dungeon list exactly like non-subscribers. That way it’s their choice whether to do them or not.

If ZOS want to artificially boost the number of players available for DLC dungeons, they should increase the rewards for doing them (more transmute stones or keys from the pledges for instance), or make them more accessible/cheaper, not use subscribers as their playthings.

That doesn’t mean I don’t like DLC dungeons or think that they are dead.

pelle412

Seems like a reasonable solution is to provide an option to exclude DLCs from random queue but cut the XP reward in like half.

idk

ayu_fever wrote: »

i have no interest in the daily random rewards.
but i do like to roll the dice and do the random dungeon because i love doing them.

so my meta DK tank queue instantly.....

and then i get vet moonhunter keep.

yep.
im out.

in 18 minutes i will try again and hope for no dlc dungeons.

theres enough dlc dungeons to have their own playlist.
or...
allow those that sub or those that bought the dungeon packs an option to opt out of them being in the random playlist.

literally all of these these ideas have no negative impact on ANYONE.

perhaps it is the top 1% (but really the ones who THINK they are in the top 1%) that hate these ideas and they want to keep everyone else beneath them so they can flex their skins and titles so you can watch their streams and you tube channel? 🤔

If it has an impact it does impact at least some people. Lets get that little obvious fact out there.

What would be a great idea is to offer a toggle to include the DLC dungeons (or deselect it to not include DLC) dungeons from the random selection.

With that their would be a greater reward for those who included the DLC dungeons based on how many they have access to. Essentially this would be like a gold tier and can include a gold weapons or jewelry which would make for good decon. Maybe even an refined upgrade matt for any of the three crafts including jewelry.

It fits with the Risk vs Reward theme of MMORPGs and I do not any reason someone would think this is a bad idea outside of entitlement.

spartaxoxo

@BejaProphet

I don't really understand how you came to the conclusion that I don't agree with force or that I felt monster helms are a problem. I very much disagree.

I think force is good in a game, as I have already stated before. Since I have already stated my reasons, I'll instead ask you to read that post for the sake of brevity.

Rather I think it's important to acknowledge the force being exerted because it can help you adapt content so that it still presents a challenge that us rewarding, but also allows for some consideration being paid to these events.

For example, I think that the Undaunted daily could stand to give people two keys just for running it on vet without needing to activate the hard mode. Because a vet dlc hardmode is NOT the same level of difficultly as a base game hardmode, and a vet dlc presents more challenge than a base game vet HM run.

I also think there could be small tweaks to lessen certain pain points in vet dungeons. One good example is the way they tweaked Zaan so that her mechanics were less likely to stack on one person. Scalecaller is still a hard dungeon (particularly the HM) but that was a pain point they relieved so that more of the playerbase could complete it that didn't ruin the dungeon entirely. These kinds of minor changes can be the difference between people being willing to farm those dungeons and run them daily, to people queue dodging and complaining about the game.

If you don't acknowledge the force, you can lose sight of many of the players interacting with your content and how that content is consumed.

spartaxoxo

AlnilamE wrote: »

[]

Yeah, but if you don't have the skill and patience to get through a vet dungeon, what exactly are you going to be competitive in?

You might as well either wait for the Golden or just make a build that doesn't require a monster helm (particularly one from a DLC dungeon.)

I am a player that has multiple of the dlc skins, am currently progging my way through VSS (I have just returned to the game more seriously) and have successfully done leaderboard vet trial runs.

This idea that if you don't enjoy vet DLC, you must be incompetent, impatient, or any other negative qualify is self-absorbed nonsense.

The only reasons I go into a vet DLC dungeon after I got my skin is to get a helmet, or to help a guildmate get a helmet. And I do not enjoy going back and getting those. I am not alone in that mindset, or more people would be farming the motifs or willing to teach capable PUGs. But that isn't the case. Because many people who are more than capable of running them also don't like them.

Linaleah

BejaProphet wrote: »

I’ve become persuaded that this thread is ad hoc.

The argument against DLC dungeons repeatedly changes.

First, the objection was that developers spend their time on something so few players participate in.

When that didn’t hold water the objection shifted towards being forced due to being included in random queue.

When that was exposed, the argument has migrated to monster helms, which everybody knows is one of the most negotiable ingredients in any build, AND only require completing one dungeon one time if you insist on a particular set.

I conclude that the truth of this thread is that people are salty over getting wrecked in these dungeons and are looking for any reason to object to them.

first that bojection STILl holds water. developers are spending time on something very few people are interested in participating in. but dungeon DLC's are faster then story DLC's, so they keep making them and keep trying to come up with ways to get players to play them/buy them

which brings us to second objection. how was it exposed exactly? random queue including DLC dungeons objection STILL. HOLDS. people want random reward, DUH. people are unwilling to do DLC dungeon when its sometimes 3-4 times as long as some of the original dungeons and far less forgiving. people would rather take a deserter debuff than do those dungeons. separating the queues and adding a separate reward to a DLC dungeon queue is the compromise to that, otherwise we continue. to have. random. queue. problem. NO, selecting only the vanilla dungeons is NOT a refutation as it removes random reward.

the truth of this thread is that more people than not - dislike running DLC dungeons for variety of reasons. ALL of those reasons are valid and have NOT been refuted even a little bit.

BejaProphet

I think there is no point in me articulating the same thing repeatedly. If anybody calls the random rewards”forcing” you to play content. You are being silly.

The truth is, you guys have some legitimate concerns and decent ideas if you wouldn’t suggest non starters like not making DLC dungeons, or make insane exaggerations like being forced to do stuff.

Almost every other suggestion for change that has been spoken in this thread I’ve felt fine about.

So it’s clear I’m not convincing anybody, and you certainly aren’t going to convince me that the loss of trash loot is equivalent to taking away your free will.

I wish you the best. No sarcasm.

AlnilamE

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

[]

Yeah, but if you don't have the skill and patience to get through a vet dungeon, what exactly are you going to be competitive in?

You might as well either wait for the Golden or just make a build that doesn't require a monster helm (particularly one from a DLC dungeon.)

I am a player that has multiple of the dlc skins, am currently progging my way through VSS (I have just returned to the game more seriously) and have successfully done leaderboard vet trial runs.

This idea that if you don't enjoy vet DLC, you must be incompetent, impatient, or any other negative qualify is self-absorbed nonsense.

The only reasons I go into a vet DLC dungeon after I got my skin is to get a helmet, or to help a guildmate get a helmet. And I do not enjoy going back and getting those. I am not alone in that mindset, or more people would be farming the motifs or willing to teach capable PUGs. But that isn't the case. Because many people who are more than capable of running them also don't like them.

If we're exchanging credentials, I'm a player who has none of the DLC skins, haven't set foot in a vet trial in 2-3 years and have only been on a leaderboard once because I filled in a vAA group that ended up with a great time.

You misunderstood my point.

What I'm saying is that, if you don't want to get through vet Scalecaller even once to get a helm because it's too hard, then Zaan is not going to make you 10x more powerful than not having a monster helm. Or 2x more powerful than using Valkyn Skoria instead.

So if you (as in the general you) think the DLC dungeon is too hard, then adapt your build to something you can get, be it Skoria, Grothdarr or no monster helm at all. Or something from the vendor. Chill. Don't stress. Go do what you want to do and have fun.

gepe87

ICP, WGT,RoM,CoS and DoM are ok as veteran and a good example how it should be.
Every player should be able to do veteran DLC even with pug, once at least.
HM aimed for endgame players.

witchdoctor

Linaleah wrote: »

developers are spending time on something very few people are interested in participating in. but dungeon DLC's are faster then story DLC's, so they keep making them and keep trying to come up with ways to get players to play them/buy them

Just wanted to reply to this.

This may be your perception based on the people you play with, and what you may read here. But that would be a limited sample, and, certainly with the people you play with, an 'echo chamber.' As in, we tend to spend our time with those of a similar viewpoint.

The only ones with the data, is ZOS.

Considering ZOS is a company whose first objective is profit, they wouldn't make a product that wasn't boosting their bottom line.

Considering ZOS's cadence includes at least one Dungeon DLC each year, it should be safe to assume they are, alive and kicking.

In my 'echo chamber,' the DLCs are where the fun is at.

To end, I agree with @BejaProphet . Some ideas (minus the hyperbole) are interesting. I think a good solution would be something to the effect of allowing ESO+ subscribers to remove DLC from their random queue, at reduced reward (in contrast to an increased reward for keeping the DLC).

Edit to add:
I realise I set myself up for someone to post those PS4 'statistics.' Yeah, nah. Bad statistics is a bad foundation for a position.

Linaleah

witchdoctor wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

developers are spending time on something very few people are interested in participating in. but dungeon DLC's are faster then story DLC's, so they keep making them and keep trying to come up with ways to get players to play them/buy them

Just wanted to reply to this.

This may be your perception based on the people you play with, and what you may read here. But that would be a limited sample, and, certainly with the people you play with, an 'echo chamber.' As in, we tend to spend our time with those of a similar viewpoint.

The only ones with the data, is ZOS.

Considering ZOS is a company whose first objective is profit, they wouldn't make a product that wasn't boosting their bottom line.

Considering ZOS's cadence includes at least one Dungeon DLC each year, it should be safe to assume they are, alive and kicking.

In my 'echo chamber,' the DLCs are where the fun is at.

To end, I agree with @BejaProphet . Some ideas (minus the hyperbole) are interesting. I think a good solution would be something to the effect of allowing ESO+ subscribers to remove DLC from their random queue, at reduced reward (in contrast to an increased reward for keeping the DLC).

Edit to add:
I realise I set myself up for someone to post those PS4 'statistics.' Yeah, nah. Bad statistics is a bad foundation for a position.

I'm going to random pugging dungeons on both PC US and PC EU, in addition to what i'm seeing happen in my various guilds. DLC dungeons are not particularly popular. is it a full sample? no. no its not. but if my random pug experience especially is anything to go by? more people are not interested in running DLC dungeons than people that are. and even groups that do attempt, do not always succeed and fall apart midway anyways.

ZoS promised us 4 content updates per year. originally, all of those content updates were supposed to be included in ESO plus membership. then, in order to be able to do larger scale stories - ZoS's words, not mine, they ended up charging us separately for one of those content updates - now known as chapters. overworld story content takes more time to produce. but backing out on their content promise is going to lose them too much good will and thus too much money and yeah, there is a good chunk of people that wants new group content to chew through. so we get dungeon DLC's. are they alive? after a fashion, yeah. are they kicking? eh, debatable.

yes separate queue for DLC dungeons and reg dungeons would be an acceptable compromise. but the reason this compromise is needed is the very reason you all keep denying. a good chunk of people does NOT want to run DLC dungeons.

spartaxoxo

BejaProphet wrote: »

you certainly aren’t going to convince me that the loss of trash loot is equivalent to taking away your free will.

I feel like still putting this up as the argument of what people mean by "force" when it comes to video games is just willful misrepresentation as this point. Which is a shame.

Force, when it comes to video games, has almost never been used by a player to mean such an extreme thing.

spartaxoxo

@witchdoctor

The PS4 statistics automatically taken by a nonbiased 3rd party. They are the closest and best objective measurement we have. You just have to know how to use them. Compare something simple and new that people have to do (like kill a dragon) vs DLC dungeons rather than just read it as a flat statistic.

eovogtb16_ESO

All that me and the hundreds of people that I do vet trials with do, when we are not doing vet trials or PvP, do vet DLC HM dungeons. We do them over and over on VET HM because on normal vet the DLC dungeons are too ridiculously easy. And we run them on vet HM over and over to get the motifs to sell them.

MattT1988

spartaxoxo wrote: »

@witchdoctor

The PS4 statistics automatically taken by a nonbiased 3rd party. They are the closest and best objective measurement we have. You just have to know how to use them. Compare something simple and new that people have to do (like kill a dragon) vs DLC dungeons rather than just read it as a flat statistic.

And once again I’ve got to post this from page 2.

MattT1988 wrote: »

shimm wrote: »

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers
Normal mazzatun 1.54% of gamers
Normal Scalecaller peak .96% of gamers
Normal Fang Lair 1.00% of gamers

Maybe someone on PlayStation can post some numbers? I think it tracks things the same way...

OP pretty close with their 1% statement.

Those stats are laughably unreliable because it takes into account EVERYBODY who’s ever logged into the game, even the players who tried the game on the free weekends and ditch the game afterwards. The PS4 stats are the same. Players who get the game, play it for a week, decide they don’t like it and don’t log in again shouldn’t count towards the overall playerbase.

Those stats should not be taken seriously.

akdave0

I wouldnt say dead, though the skill needed to complete is higher. So often do players quit after the 1st boss once frustration kicks in. Moon hunter keep is a prime example. First timers or those without knowledge of the mechanics leads to that frustration. I usually will explain after the first wipe what to do. If that becomes tedious then I leave. Getting my crap pushed in is not my definition of fun.

Heelie

The dungeons are all pretty easy compared to DLC trial content, as for the motifs, I did around 9-10 runs of DoM HM the other day in a few hours. The motifs sold pretty fast but they're not that rare that it was worth my time once I finished the set.

Most of the older DLC dungeon content have been nerfed earlier this year, some more than other. And I am pretty sure we will see the same treatment later next year.

So if you have trouble cleared the newest content just wait out the gear power creep and the potential nerf to the content.

It's very important to note that vet DLC HM content is not supposed to be an activity that is easy, it's supposed to be among the hardest content in the game.

So if you're not in full legendary gear, and wearing food buff with everything else, or maybe not even max CP, this content is not designed for you. You're not meant to clear before you have experience in maxing your character and play style and have taken the time to learn the mechanics of the dungeon.

Now of course you don't "need" all that but I just hate to see people complain that the content designed for the very end game in a game is not accessible by people who haven't reached that point.

Not everything in the game has to be for everyone, challenges ahead is what keep the game fun. ZOS has taken a lot of steps to make the challenges tied to the HM, making the base vet content more accessible to a larger audience of playersm, adressing this exact issue.

Linaleah

Heelie wrote: »

The dungeons are all pretty easy compared to DLC trial content, as for the motifs, I did around 9-10 runs of DoM HM the other day in a few hours. The motifs sold pretty fast but they're not that rare that it was worth my time once I finished the set.

Most of the older DLC dungeon content have been nerfed earlier this year, some more than other. And I am pretty sure we will see the same treatment later next year.

So if you have trouble cleared the newest content just wait out the gear power creep and the potential nerf to the content.

It's very important to note that vet DLC HM content is not supposed to be an activity that is easy, it's supposed to be among the hardest content in the game.

So if you're not in full legendary gear, and wearing food buff with everything else, or maybe not even max CP, this content is not designed for you. You're not meant to clear before you have experience in maxing your character and play style and have taken the time to learn the mechanics of the dungeon.

Now of course you don't "need" all that but I just hate to see people complain that the content designed for the very end game in a game is not accessible by people who haven't reached that point.

Not everything in the game has to be for everyone, challenges ahead is what keep the game fun. ZOS has taken a lot of steps to make the challenges tied to the HM, making the base vet content more accessible to a larger audience of playersm, adressing this exact issue.

for the most part - i agree. which is why DLC dungeons should have their own separate queue instead of being lumped together with old dungeons.

it is a special kind of "fun" getting a DLC dungeon as your random normal, where most of your group is not even lvl 50 yet (they start popping up at lvl 45) but even at max level - its not exactly a picnic. these dungeons feel VERY differently when you run them with a pug vs organized, skilled group that is used to running together and more often then not - is communicating via voice.

spartaxoxo

MattT1988 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

@witchdoctor

The PS4 statistics automatically taken by a nonbiased 3rd party. They are the closest and best objective measurement we have. You just have to know how to use them. Compare something simple and new that people have to do (like kill a dragon) vs DLC dungeons rather than just read it as a flat statistic.

And once again I’ve got to post this from page 2.

MattT1988 wrote: »

shimm wrote: »

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers
Normal mazzatun 1.54% of gamers
Normal Scalecaller peak .96% of gamers
Normal Fang Lair 1.00% of gamers

Maybe someone on PlayStation can post some numbers? I think it tracks things the same way...

OP pretty close with their 1% statement.

Those stats are laughably unreliable because it takes into account EVERYBODY who’s ever logged into the game, even the players who tried the game on the free weekends and ditch the game afterwards. The PS4 stats are the same. Players who get the game, play it for a week, decide they don’t like it and don’t log in again shouldn’t count towards the overall playerbase.

Those stats should not be taken seriously.

I wasn't talking to you and already addressed how to take that into account. So no, you didn't need to copypaste that to me.

spartaxoxo

Linaleah wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

The dungeons are all pretty easy compared to DLC trial content, as for the motifs, I did around 9-10 runs of DoM HM the other day in a few hours. The motifs sold pretty fast but they're not that rare that it was worth my time once I finished the set.

Most of the older DLC dungeon content have been nerfed earlier this year, some more than other. And I am pretty sure we will see the same treatment later next year.

So if you have trouble cleared the newest content just wait out the gear power creep and the potential nerf to the content.

It's very important to note that vet DLC HM content is not supposed to be an activity that is easy, it's supposed to be among the hardest content in the game.

So if you're not in full legendary gear, and wearing food buff with everything else, or maybe not even max CP, this content is not designed for you. You're not meant to clear before you have experience in maxing your character and play style and have taken the time to learn the mechanics of the dungeon.

Now of course you don't "need" all that but I just hate to see people complain that the content designed for the very end game in a game is not accessible by people who haven't reached that point.

Not everything in the game has to be for everyone, challenges ahead is what keep the game fun. ZOS has taken a lot of steps to make the challenges tied to the HM, making the base vet content more accessible to a larger audience of playersm, adressing this exact issue.

for the most part - i agree. which is why DLC dungeons should have their own separate queue instead of being lumped together with old dungeons.

it is a special kind of "fun" getting a DLC dungeon as your random normal, where most of your group is not even lvl 50 yet (they start popping up at lvl 45) but even at max level - its not exactly a picnic. these dungeons feel VERY differently when you run them with a pug vs organized, skilled group that is used to running together and more often then not - is communicating via voice.

Honestly a lot of the normal ones are soloable and the ones that aren't are doable with minimal help.

Linaleah

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

The dungeons are all pretty easy compared to DLC trial content, as for the motifs, I did around 9-10 runs of DoM HM the other day in a few hours. The motifs sold pretty fast but they're not that rare that it was worth my time once I finished the set.

Most of the older DLC dungeon content have been nerfed earlier this year, some more than other. And I am pretty sure we will see the same treatment later next year.

So if you have trouble cleared the newest content just wait out the gear power creep and the potential nerf to the content.

It's very important to note that vet DLC HM content is not supposed to be an activity that is easy, it's supposed to be among the hardest content in the game.

So if you're not in full legendary gear, and wearing food buff with everything else, or maybe not even max CP, this content is not designed for you. You're not meant to clear before you have experience in maxing your character and play style and have taken the time to learn the mechanics of the dungeon.

Now of course you don't "need" all that but I just hate to see people complain that the content designed for the very end game in a game is not accessible by people who haven't reached that point.

Not everything in the game has to be for everyone, challenges ahead is what keep the game fun. ZOS has taken a lot of steps to make the challenges tied to the HM, making the base vet content more accessible to a larger audience of playersm, adressing this exact issue.

for the most part - i agree. which is why DLC dungeons should have their own separate queue instead of being lumped together with old dungeons.

it is a special kind of "fun" getting a DLC dungeon as your random normal, where most of your group is not even lvl 50 yet (they start popping up at lvl 45) but even at max level - its not exactly a picnic. these dungeons feel VERY differently when you run them with a pug vs organized, skilled group that is used to running together and more often then not - is communicating via voice.

Honestly a lot of the normal ones are soloable and the ones that aren't are doable with minimal help.

oh god, this argument. no. no they are not. not by vast majority of players and certainly NOT by vast VAST majority of players under 50. SO and I duoed most dungeons in the game. We hit a full on block with march of sacrifices and moonhunter keep (bear in mind, while I cannot clear vMA - he can and has repeatedly). this is considering that our dungeon runs go faster and smoother with just 2 of us, than majority of the 4 man pugs I've been a part of - that includes non DLC dungeons. Moongrave fane gave us a LOT of trouble. I've been in (granted, casual) guild groups that died half a dozen times on vampire bosses before getting them down. Highly skilled players that can solo DLC dungeons? are extremely few and far in between - the ones that think they can solo them are slightly more common, but they only THINK they can.

when was the last time you random pugged? because my DLC pugging experiences have NOT been pleasant. heck, even Prison/tower were an absolute drag in a pug, when after multiple nerfs they are as close as you get to non DLC dungeons in level of challenge. (this is on normal btw, I refuse to pug on vet)

MehrunesFlagon

pelle412 wrote: »

Seems like a reasonable solution is to provide an option to exclude DLCs from random queue but cut the XP reward in like half.

I'm fine with such so long as I have the chance to exclude the non-dlc dungeons.It has to go both ways.

Contaminate

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

The dungeons are all pretty easy compared to DLC trial content, as for the motifs, I did around 9-10 runs of DoM HM the other day in a few hours. The motifs sold pretty fast but they're not that rare that it was worth my time once I finished the set.

Most of the older DLC dungeon content have been nerfed earlier this year, some more than other. And I am pretty sure we will see the same treatment later next year.

So if you have trouble cleared the newest content just wait out the gear power creep and the potential nerf to the content.

It's very important to note that vet DLC HM content is not supposed to be an activity that is easy, it's supposed to be among the hardest content in the game.

So if you're not in full legendary gear, and wearing food buff with everything else, or maybe not even max CP, this content is not designed for you. You're not meant to clear before you have experience in maxing your character and play style and have taken the time to learn the mechanics of the dungeon.

Now of course you don't "need" all that but I just hate to see people complain that the content designed for the very end game in a game is not accessible by people who haven't reached that point.

Not everything in the game has to be for everyone, challenges ahead is what keep the game fun. ZOS has taken a lot of steps to make the challenges tied to the HM, making the base vet content more accessible to a larger audience of playersm, adressing this exact issue.

for the most part - i agree. which is why DLC dungeons should have their own separate queue instead of being lumped together with old dungeons.

it is a special kind of "fun" getting a DLC dungeon as your random normal, where most of your group is not even lvl 50 yet (they start popping up at lvl 45) but even at max level - its not exactly a picnic. these dungeons feel VERY differently when you run them with a pug vs organized, skilled group that is used to running together and more often then not - is communicating via voice.

Honestly a lot of the normal ones are soloable and the ones that aren't are doable with minimal help.

oh god, this argument. no. no they are not. not by vast majority of players and certainly NOT by vast VAST majority of players under 50. SO and I duoed most dungeons in the game. We hit a full on block with march of sacrifices and moonhunter keep (bear in mind, while I cannot clear vMA - he can and has repeatedly). this is considering that our dungeon runs go faster and smoother with just 2 of us, than majority of the 4 man pugs I've been a part of - that includes non DLC dungeons. Moongrave fane gave us a LOT of trouble. I've been in (granted, casual) guild groups that died half a dozen times on vampire bosses before getting them down. Highly skilled players that can solo DLC dungeons? are extremely few and far in between - the ones that think they can solo them are slightly more common, but they only THINK they can.

when was the last time you random pugged? because my DLC pugging experiences have NOT been pleasant. heck, even Prison/tower were an absolute drag in a pug, when after multiple nerfs they are as close as you get to non DLC dungeons in level of challenge. (this is on normal btw, I refuse to pug on vet)

As someone who pugs vet all the time, it goes pretty well. The randoms I get for base-game stuff tend to be of weaker stock than the randoms I get when queuing up for vDLCs. I've got speed runs for vet pugs, got my vCoS skin from a quickly arranged group from my trade guild, got most my HM clears from pugs that felt good.

zvavi

Contaminate wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

The dungeons are all pretty easy compared to DLC trial content, as for the motifs, I did around 9-10 runs of DoM HM the other day in a few hours. The motifs sold pretty fast but they're not that rare that it was worth my time once I finished the set.

Most of the older DLC dungeon content have been nerfed earlier this year, some more than other. And I am pretty sure we will see the same treatment later next year.

So if you have trouble cleared the newest content just wait out the gear power creep and the potential nerf to the content.

It's very important to note that vet DLC HM content is not supposed to be an activity that is easy, it's supposed to be among the hardest content in the game.

So if you're not in full legendary gear, and wearing food buff with everything else, or maybe not even max CP, this content is not designed for you. You're not meant to clear before you have experience in maxing your character and play style and have taken the time to learn the mechanics of the dungeon.

Now of course you don't "need" all that but I just hate to see people complain that the content designed for the very end game in a game is not accessible by people who haven't reached that point.

Not everything in the game has to be for everyone, challenges ahead is what keep the game fun. ZOS has taken a lot of steps to make the challenges tied to the HM, making the base vet content more accessible to a larger audience of playersm, adressing this exact issue.

for the most part - i agree. which is why DLC dungeons should have their own separate queue instead of being lumped together with old dungeons.

it is a special kind of "fun" getting a DLC dungeon as your random normal, where most of your group is not even lvl 50 yet (they start popping up at lvl 45) but even at max level - its not exactly a picnic. these dungeons feel VERY differently when you run them with a pug vs organized, skilled group that is used to running together and more often then not - is communicating via voice.

Honestly a lot of the normal ones are soloable and the ones that aren't are doable with minimal help.

oh god, this argument. no. no they are not. not by vast majority of players and certainly NOT by vast VAST majority of players under 50. SO and I duoed most dungeons in the game. We hit a full on block with march of sacrifices and moonhunter keep (bear in mind, while I cannot clear vMA - he can and has repeatedly). this is considering that our dungeon runs go faster and smoother with just 2 of us, than majority of the 4 man pugs I've been a part of - that includes non DLC dungeons. Moongrave fane gave us a LOT of trouble. I've been in (granted, casual) guild groups that died half a dozen times on vampire bosses before getting them down. Highly skilled players that can solo DLC dungeons? are extremely few and far in between - the ones that think they can solo them are slightly more common, but they only THINK they can.

when was the last time you random pugged? because my DLC pugging experiences have NOT been pleasant. heck, even Prison/tower were an absolute drag in a pug, when after multiple nerfs they are as close as you get to non DLC dungeons in level of challenge. (this is on normal btw, I refuse to pug on vet)

As someone who pugs vet all the time, it goes pretty well. The randoms I get for base-game stuff tend to be of weaker stock than the randoms I get when queuing up for vDLCs. I've got speed runs for vet pugs, got my vCoS skin from a quickly arranged group from my trade guild, got most my HM clears from pugs that felt good.

It does go well most of the time. But sometimes, it doesnt. Especially when server lag strikes. But when it worked well, and it actually finds a group, it is ok.
i got my vFL personality from pugs :shrug:

MehrunesFlagon

zvavi wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

The dungeons are all pretty easy compared to DLC trial content, as for the motifs, I did around 9-10 runs of DoM HM the other day in a few hours. The motifs sold pretty fast but they're not that rare that it was worth my time once I finished the set.

Most of the older DLC dungeon content have been nerfed earlier this year, some more than other. And I am pretty sure we will see the same treatment later next year.

So if you have trouble cleared the newest content just wait out the gear power creep and the potential nerf to the content.

It's very important to note that vet DLC HM content is not supposed to be an activity that is easy, it's supposed to be among the hardest content in the game.

So if you're not in full legendary gear, and wearing food buff with everything else, or maybe not even max CP, this content is not designed for you. You're not meant to clear before you have experience in maxing your character and play style and have taken the time to learn the mechanics of the dungeon.

Now of course you don't "need" all that but I just hate to see people complain that the content designed for the very end game in a game is not accessible by people who haven't reached that point.

Not everything in the game has to be for everyone, challenges ahead is what keep the game fun. ZOS has taken a lot of steps to make the challenges tied to the HM, making the base vet content more accessible to a larger audience of playersm, adressing this exact issue.

for the most part - i agree. which is why DLC dungeons should have their own separate queue instead of being lumped together with old dungeons.

it is a special kind of "fun" getting a DLC dungeon as your random normal, where most of your group is not even lvl 50 yet (they start popping up at lvl 45) but even at max level - its not exactly a picnic. these dungeons feel VERY differently when you run them with a pug vs organized, skilled group that is used to running together and more often then not - is communicating via voice.

Honestly a lot of the normal ones are soloable and the ones that aren't are doable with minimal help.

oh god, this argument. no. no they are not. not by vast majority of players and certainly NOT by vast VAST majority of players under 50. SO and I duoed most dungeons in the game. We hit a full on block with march of sacrifices and moonhunter keep (bear in mind, while I cannot clear vMA - he can and has repeatedly). this is considering that our dungeon runs go faster and smoother with just 2 of us, than majority of the 4 man pugs I've been a part of - that includes non DLC dungeons. Moongrave fane gave us a LOT of trouble. I've been in (granted, casual) guild groups that died half a dozen times on vampire bosses before getting them down. Highly skilled players that can solo DLC dungeons? are extremely few and far in between - the ones that think they can solo them are slightly more common, but they only THINK they can.

when was the last time you random pugged? because my DLC pugging experiences have NOT been pleasant. heck, even Prison/tower were an absolute drag in a pug, when after multiple nerfs they are as close as you get to non DLC dungeons in level of challenge. (this is on normal btw, I refuse to pug on vet)

As someone who pugs vet all the time, it goes pretty well. The randoms I get for base-game stuff tend to be of weaker stock than the randoms I get when queuing up for vDLCs. I've got speed runs for vet pugs, got my vCoS skin from a quickly arranged group from my trade guild, got most my HM clears from pugs that felt good.

It does go well most of the time. But sometimes, it doesnt. Especially when server lag strikes. But when it worked well, and it actually finds a group, it is ok.
i got my vFL personality from pugs :shrug:

I did as well,but server lag screws even good players.

Asardes

Clearing vMA is the most basic thing you can do on a DPS focused character. It's common sense to train until you can easily clear vMA, because that means you can respond to mechanics in real time, do enough DPS, buff, sustain and self heal to a decent degree. If you haven't done that, don't even attempt clearing newer DLC dungeons (HotR and what comes after) because you will be a drag on your group. I don't even do veteran content on any of my characters until I had cleared vMA on them with a degree of confidence (>500K score) because I don't want to make a fool of myself in vMoS or vBF when I start doing the pledges.

FierceSam

Asardes wrote: »

Clearing vMA is the most basic thing you can do on a DPS focused character. It's common sense to train until you can easily clear vMA, because that means you can respond to mechanics in real time, do enough DPS, buff, sustain and self heal to a decent degree. If you haven't done that, don't even attempt clearing newer DLC dungeons (HotR and what comes after) because you will be a drag on your group. I don't even do veteran content on any of my characters until I had cleared vMA on them with a degree of confidence (>500K score) because I don't want to make a fool of myself in vMoS or vBF when I start doing the pledges.

While that makes total sense, I think it’s a tiny bit harsh (and not entirely applicable to healers or tanks)

I’ve never done vMA

Cleared vDoM on the first day. Amazingly you can learn to do DLC dungeons by.... doing DLC dungeons.

I will get round to vMA at some point. I’m sure it will make me a better player and introduce me to new levels of in-game frustration.