are DLC dungeons dead at this point?

FierceSam

Classic logic disconnect

Motif numbers in a few guild stores is not proportional to number/popularity of DLC dungeons at all. So OP’s point has zero validity.

Personally, I like them. I wish they were better implemented and less buggy. And I wish there was less emphasis on lazy, badly telegraphed one shot mechanics and abhor the new trend of very light coloured, barely visible AoE indication. I particularly enjoy them when you are working as a team, that can be super satisfying.

Asardes

I do them on every character I develop. All base game dungeons and the first 3 DLC pack (IC, SotS, HotR) veteran HM, for the next 3 DLC packs (DB, WH, WS) I'm content to doing simple veteran since HMs are much harder. The last DLC pack - SB - I only did on my DK tank and didn't even try HM, because the groups were clearly too bad for it.

But in recent months it has become very difficult to find people to run them with, I even left a PvE guild I was in because people either didn't want to run them, or when they wanted, they played badly and had an even worse attitude - they refused to play the mechanics, even when I explained them in detail, multiple times. I mean 20+ wipes at vCoS HM, a 3+ year old dungeon, due to the same mistakes, is hard to tolerate. That's the reason I pulled the plug and left that guild: why waste a slot when you can find equally (un)skilled people in trade guilds or even the random group finder?

Thankfully I was able to find random groups were people weren't that good, but at least they listened and did the mechanics. For example a few days ago I was able to do vFH HM as tank with 3 other players in the ~500 CP range with ~60K group DPS because I told them when to time their burst, what to prioritize, when to hide behind columns, and after a couple of wipes they understood and did those mechanics. I think some people really have inflated egos because they can cheese a trial dummy to an arbitrary number with gear that doesn't even properly work in more complex fights (requires to stay in one spot, hit one target for a long time, stay melee all the time etc.), and then they think they can stack and burn everything. I frequently I saw people with fancy trial titles and skins dying like flies to very predictable mechanics or even in trash packs because they have slow reactions, don't use shields, run around with 15K HP.

In general the average quality of players in this game seems to have taken a steep nose dive in the last couple of months. Probably because they're one trick ponies - they learn a trial (usually the newest) mechanically, but if you bring them out of that, they're just punching bags.

ayu_fever

i prefer dungeons over any other type of content, but i avoid dlc dungeons like the plague.
i can tolerate normal but not with pugs. on vet they are just too hard!!!!!
they have their place though, and i am not calling for nerfs for vet mode. i just stay out of there and let the tryhards have at it.
normal mode on all dlc dungeons needs tons of nerfs though.

i have cleared only a few of them on vet, and i can easily say that vet depths of malatar is the most difficult thing i have ever done in this game. took 5 hours to clear it, but i NEEDED the helmet because i always play healer and i NEEDED the meridia skin because she is my character in the entire elder scrolls franchise.
after that day i never went back and i never will.
i always clear each dlc dungeon on normal with my main just for the skill point with no plans to ever go back.

they are well designed and have interesting (sometimes annoying 😆) mechanics, and the dlc dungeon packs do give us our money’s worth, but shor’s bones they are just too hard!!!!!!

thankfully ZOS did the year of the dragon, which made all 4 of this years dlc dungeons NOT A NIGHTMARE even on normal because of the story they want to tell.
ZOS wants us to experience the story so these dungeons are exponentially more accessible than any others released so far and i hope this keeps on trending that way (compared to other dlc dungeons, maybe even knock them down another notch or two on normal mode just to keep them accessible to all players).

FierceSam

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

No, they are not dead, they are imo best PVE part of the game. Problem is that like any content after completing them several times there is no incentive to do that again... as was discussed many times, vDLC pledge should have higher rewards. At least something like 2 keys/2+ transmutes for non-HM and 3 keys/4+ transmutes for HM.
As for now if you want to farm keys and have multiple toons it's faster and easier to do fast and easy pledges on several toons then complete vDLC ones.

This would be an interesting way of seeing whether an increase in pledge rewards actually does incentivise more players rather than just more play.

Currently ZOS are using motif rewards to encourage DLC dungeon use. This seems to accomplish the ‘getting existing players to play them more’ requirement. However it’s not clear whether this leads to more players doing the content or just more runs from the same set of players.

Increasing the pledge rewards compared to the non-DLC dungeons would reflect their duration and difficulty and might encourage new players to try them.

Asardes

Motifs are not as profitable as they once were because they get introduced in the Crown Store as soon as they are released in game, and they also flood the market with heaps of them once or twice a year when they have those events where you get them for very little effort. So it works for maybe a month and a half, but then the price drops so low people don't bother farming them anymore. I mean for an end game player 30K - that's where pages usually stabilize - is just peanuts.

MattT1988

shimm wrote: »

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers
Normal mazzatun 1.54% of gamers
Normal Scalecaller peak .96% of gamers
Normal Fang Lair 1.00% of gamers

Maybe someone on PlayStation can post some numbers? I think it tracks things the same way...

OP pretty close with their 1% statement.

Those stats are laughably unreliable because it takes into account EVERYBODY who’s ever logged into the game, even the players who tried the game on the free weekends and ditch the game afterwards. The PS4 stats are the same. Players who get the game, play it for a week, decide they don’t like it and don’t log in again shouldn’t count towards the overall playerbase.

TheFM

The dlc ones are SUPPOSED to be more difficult because they are designed for more experienced players. Just play on normal if they are too difficult, people have just gotten used to ignoring mechanics, which cannot, and should not , be done in vet dungeons.

TheFM

buttaface wrote: »

Agree with OP. It's not that they are "hard," but that they are "fake hard." As in "learn the script" hard as in "arcade game hard" "console level hard" and not "PC game hard" or "tactical combat hard."

I am not keeping a *** spreadsheet or notebook to refer back to 100 different bosses, miscellaneous side games, pad standing and lever pulling straight, and that's from a perspective of someone who has been playing these games for decades, a serious raider going back 20 years. That shark was jumped long ago after a few years of people burning out on WOW. I expect modern games to cultivate a set of skills in players and then those skills and not SCRIPTS are generally used to do the content. ESO gets a flat F in that department, and would wager tens of thousands of the player base agree, forum cheerleaders notwithstanding.

And yeah, demand "proof" that only a tiny % of players do the content when every one posting here has pugged into a random normal Frostvault and watched the team instantly dissolve, likely many times. Don't lie and say you haven't. So other than the vocal forumites and fanbois, no, a majority of players do not do this content.

In better, more popular games, Warframe as one of many possible examples, they BOOT content or rework it when only a small percentage of players do or complete it. No idea why investors haven't stepped in and done the same in this game, it is costing them serious money.

To make a rant constructive, this would be so easy to fix. Strip out ALL the gotcha sidegames, one shots, etc. from ALL dungeons, regular and DLC, dumb them down, and reserve those for a hard mode that is selected at the start and must be selected by all team members, and trials. None of the gear in the DLC dungeons is as good as trial gear anyway, so no need for the tryhards to gripe if the average player base can have access to it. It's a no brainer this would improve the game and the number of players doing that content would skyrocket.

It's a game that people pay for. I dread to think how many of the typical player base I pug tank for daily buy DLCs thinking they will be "fun" who have no hope of completing them.

So you want to be able to face roll everything without learning any mechanics? Whats the fun in that. I feel accomplished when I have the mechanics down for a difficult dungeon, making it a tank and spank for every boss would be very dull imo.

TheFM

kargen27 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

The reason the new motifs aren't in guildstores is because they're bugged.

For a good amount of the playerbase, running DLC dungeons and achievement hunting within them are still the cream of the crop of ESO content, so no worries.

But yeah, a lot of people actively avoid going into PVP so let's get rid of PVP plz

pvp has not received a content update in years (bridges don't count) and has been on the forefront of ESO's declining performance for just as long.

really hard to watch pvp streams because everyone is just disappointed and mad.

I have been around long enough to see the absolute rage when pvp gets a content update and pve gets nothing (IC) so yeah, dungeons are not even close.

I think the devs kind of know this now though, I suspect its why dragonhold did not have dungeons.

More content would be bad for PvP. PvP needs players concentrated in one area to work well. That is why there are choke points in Cyrodiil. Spreading out an already thin PvP population isn't a good idea.

But they could add something new to cyrodiil itself.

Like they could add 3 artifacts to the map instead of just one, one for each faction, and each one would have its own strengths and weaknesses balanced out by one of the other artifacts.

FierceSam

I also found that, although it was fantastically badly implemented, the attempt to include the Wrathstone DLC dungeons in the overall Year of the Dragon storyline really increased my guildmembers’ desire to go through them. Many more players wanted to do slower run throughs of the normal versions to both experience the storyline and do the dungeons.

I also find there’s a really sweet time spot for these dungeons early in their lives when no one really knows how they work and it’s perfectly fine to say “first time here” or “wtf are we going to do?” in chat without getting a load of negativity. My 2 hour run through of Moonhunter Keep or 3 hours in vet Depths of Malatar were probably more challenging and fun than the speedy runs going on a couple of weeks later.

The saddest thing about DLC dungeons is that the normal versions in no way prepare players for the vet versions. So even if you disregard the benefit of a monster hat, there is simply no reason for many players to bother with the normal version. This means that all their learning will come in vet versions, usually in PUGs, with all the annoyance and acrimony this generates among their fellow players.

I would say that one thing I really don’t like is that players who are clearly not ready for these dungeons (and obviously don’t want to do them) are force fed into them simply for the crime of subscribing to ESO+. I see no benefit to anyone in this. A newly minted Level 50 player/character may be perfectly capable of running non-DLC vet dungeons with no trouble at all, but will always have a problem doing far harder content that they are unfamiliar with. If it’s such a bonus, then players should at least have the option of not taking it up.

Freakin_Hytte

shimm wrote: »

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers
Normal mazzatun 1.54% of gamers
Normal Scalecaller peak .96% of gamers
Normal Fang Lair 1.00% of gamers

Maybe someone on PlayStation can post some numbers? I think it tracks things the same way...

OP pretty close with their 1% statement.

Normal scalebreaker is 0,4% and vet is 0,1%
Normal Wrathstone is 0,6% and vet is 0,1%
Normal MoS is 1,1% and normal MHK is 0,9 and completing both on vet is 0,2%
Normal Dragon bones is 1,7% while vet is 0,3%
Normal Shadows of the hist is 2,6% and vet is 0,5%
Normal Horns of the reach is 1,8% and vet is 0,3%

Those are the percentages on the dlc dungeon achievements from ps4.

So according to this not even 0,5% do both on vet 👍 and not even 3% do the normal ones.

Neoealth

Vet dlc dungeons are kinda fun when played with guild friends who know the content and are willing to gently guide you through. At least that was my experience. That's not to say vet pugs can't be fun, but most of the time they end up falling apart because it's just too hard for casual players with no idea what to do to work out.

BejaProphet

For my 2 cents.

If vetDLC pugging was gone tomorrow I’d leave this game and never come back. Lately my life has been stressful and I’ve not been doing stressful content. But I want them there. I don’t have time these days to be in a regular trial group and thus vet DLC are MY end game.

Even when I not in the mood to do them, knowing that epic beast isn’t there for me to challenge when the desire strikes would ruin this game for me.

There should be content in the game difficult enough that we DONT want to do it daily.

Emma_Overload

Grianasteri wrote: »

Most people are not undertaking DLC dungeons on a regular basis, with Vet DLC being even less frequented. It is also fair to say that most people who do undertake normal or vet DLC dungeons, are doing so mainly for gear, in particular Monster Helms with Vet DLC - and once that gear is acquired will be unlikely to revisit the dungeon other than to help friends/guildies.

The reason of course is that most of the DLC dungeons are significantly more challenging than the average base game dungeons, by design, its on purpose. This is positive, not something to complain about. It provides progression in difficulty of dungeons and a challenge for more capable players and groups.

There are for instance some DLC dungeons that it is very rare to find a pug capable of completion. Why should it be? The dungeons are being designed with teamwork, knowledge of the mechs, high dps in mind, specifically to provide progression from base game normal and vet dungeons.

This can make for some frustrating experiences and grinds for gear, but on balance the challenge available is positive. I also think it is positive that not just anyone can jump into a pug and get some of the best gear in the game.

I would say the progression is (not including hard modes):

Base game normal
Base game vet
DLC normal
DLC vet

Base game vet and DLC normal can be similar and some bosses and mechs can be more challenging or easy in either. Normal Forstvault for instance, I would say is more difficult than Fungal Grotto vet.

I find I am unsure what the OP is actually asking for or suggesting. I mean DLC dungeons are hard and therefore not many people run them regularly. Fine. So what?

The problem is that ZOS is asking players to pay for content that is not designed for most players. This has really been getting on my nerves for years now, and I have NOT purchased the last couple of dungeon DLC because of this. Unfortunately, I'm already paying for ESO+ this whole time, so I am directly subsidizing content that I do not like and do not want. This is especially infuriating because I would be happy if ZOS designed some new "medium" difficulty content like the base game Vet dungeons, but ZOS refuses to do this.

Royaji

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

shimm wrote: »

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers
Normal mazzatun 1.54% of gamers
Normal Scalecaller peak .96% of gamers
Normal Fang Lair 1.00% of gamers

Maybe someone on PlayStation can post some numbers? I think it tracks things the same way...

OP pretty close with their 1% statement.

Normal scalebreaker is 0,4% and vet is 0,1%
Normal Wrathstone is 0,6% and vet is 0,1%
Normal MoS is 1,1% and normal MHK is 0,9 and completing both on vet is 0,2%
Normal Dragon bones is 1,7% while vet is 0,3%
Normal Shadows of the hist is 2,6% and vet is 0,5%
Normal Horns of the reach is 1,8% and vet is 0,3%

Those are the percentages on the dlc dungeon achievements from ps4.

So according to this not even 0,5% do both on vet 👍 and not even 3% do the normal ones.

This again? If you are going to throw around achievement numbers which count every account ever created including the ones during free weekends and players who left the game before some of the dungeons were even released why don't you also include the percentage of players who got "Level 50" achievement so we have at least some point of reference?

Freakin_Hytte

Royaji wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

shimm wrote: »

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers
Normal mazzatun 1.54% of gamers
Normal Scalecaller peak .96% of gamers
Normal Fang Lair 1.00% of gamers

Maybe someone on PlayStation can post some numbers? I think it tracks things the same way...

OP pretty close with their 1% statement.

Normal scalebreaker is 0,4% and vet is 0,1%
Normal Wrathstone is 0,6% and vet is 0,1%
Normal MoS is 1,1% and normal MHK is 0,9 and completing both on vet is 0,2%
Normal Dragon bones is 1,7% while vet is 0,3%
Normal Shadows of the hist is 2,6% and vet is 0,5%
Normal Horns of the reach is 1,8% and vet is 0,3%

Those are the percentages on the dlc dungeon achievements from ps4.

So according to this not even 0,5% do both on vet 👍 and not even 3% do the normal ones.

This again? If you are going to throw around achievement numbers which count every account ever created including the ones during free weekends and players who left the game before some of the dungeons were even released why don't you also include the percentage of players who got "Level 50" achievement so we have at least some point of reference?

12% reached lvl50, I'm just posting achievements since the earlier guy asked for the ps4 ones. Don't be so salty, eat some candy or something. Seems like your blood sugar is a bit low.

Kahnak

I feel like there is this assumption that high-end players are just naturally good at completing these dungeons and they aren't for normal players because they are made to be difficult. In reality, the people that complete these dungeons or run them for skins and achievements spend hours figuring out mechanics or spend time hunting down information on the internet that is widely available. It just takes a group that can communicate, a little bit of effort and a little bit of determination. I realize there are people that don't have a lot of time to play the game, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be challenging content for people that do have the time. I realize that some people like to play solo or might have some difficulty finding a group, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be challenging content for people who don't. You can argue whether or not DLC dungeons should be included in random queue, and I think there is something to be said for that. But these anecdotes about 'One time I used the group finder and failed a DLC dungeon' can be applied to almost any vet dungeon that people have failed because the group wasn't good. Hell, I've seen vet bosses on base game dungeons break a group because they didn't understand the mechanics. Most of the players that regularly complete these DLC dungeons do not use the group finder - they have their own group to bring. Until you can manage that and are willing to put a little bit of effort into something you probably won't have very much success completing any DLC dungeons.

Asardes

Some of those dungeons HM are comparable in difficulty to trials so you should be on top of the game to attempt them, have stable group, Discord or other voice chat etc. But non-HM veteran is doable by someone who knows his build relatively well, tries to understand the mechanics by himself, or at least be smart enough to listen to someone who has done the dungeon before, or find info in the internet. If you have 2 mediocre DDs who can do 25-30K, a healer that actually heals and a tank that can block and interrupt they're pretty doable. But if you have players who just spam light attacks and don't have a clue what they're doing it will be impossible. I've seen even high CP players that were incredibly bad. A few weeks ago I kicked some CP750+ player from a vSCP PUG because he was doing literally that, light attack spam with no other skills after I asked him twice to stop messing around.

Huyen

Wing wrote: »

I don't do vet DLC dungeons, the TLDR is that I simply find them too hard and not fun, and its getting to the point that I don't even bother to run them once on normal because why even?

(the longer is I kind of already did my time of meta chasing, small man, time trial, leaderboard, sweat fest in another MMO and im just not about that life anymore, on top of it not being fun in ESO)

that said I do watch guild stores and what not for motifs if I want them, and you know what?

nothing. . .

been checking major trade hubs daily and have not seen a single page of the new motifs, maybe I might have seen one but I just cannot remember at this point, and im sure it was probably priced in the 100's of thousands due to scarcity because. . .

nobody is doing this content.

cry all you want about get gud, or whatever, but it does suck to see so much development time and effort, encounter design, new rewards in cosmetics, motifs, skins, armor sets, monster sets, etc. all for nothing.

going to a dungeon that only about 1% will play for a few runs, until they get the monster set if its relevant, and then never touch again. (the % amount is actually less then that, completions of older DLC dungeons were only around 2-3% of the player base and that number has only declined)

people go out of their way to avoid them, advertising in zone "non DLC dungeons" only running group finder on sub 50 characters as DLC dungeons to not enter the queue until you hit 50, simply dropping group if they get a DLC dungeon.

yup, people are going out of their way to avoid content, I would not even buy them if not for just being included in ESO plus, and I know MANY are in the same boat.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert

Dlc dungeons are nowhere near as hard as when they first launched. I managed to pug one, and still complete it without a tank (March of Sacrifices). Its mainly the reputation the dungeons have now.

Starlock

I've barely touched any of the four new dungeons because of a lack of a story mode. When they integrate the dungeons with a lot of story, it makes me not want to play them unless I can arrange a group to go through as story mode.

Araneae6537

Vet dungeons and especially DLC vet dungeons are my favorite endgame content! I regularly PUG vet dungeons and sure, sometimes it doesn’t work or someone leaves right away (the latter happens often enough in random normals too) but as long as people are working together, I enjoy it and even if we can’t complete the dungeon, I’ll have learned things that will make me do better next time.

I got Depths of Malatar queuing for a random vet yesterday, and got a great group, all of us learning but the tank who was great and super helpful, and we worked our way through the dungeon and it was so fun and rewarding, totally made my night, and got my Symphony of Blades helm too!

kojou

I run DLC dungeons all the time. They're the only ones that are still a challenge.

Woeler

I run vet DLC dungeons almost every night.

NordSwordnBoard

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Most people are not undertaking DLC dungeons on a regular basis, with Vet DLC being even less frequented. It is also fair to say that most people who do undertake normal or vet DLC dungeons, are doing so mainly for gear, in particular Monster Helms with Vet DLC - and once that gear is acquired will be unlikely to revisit the dungeon other than to help friends/guildies.

The reason of course is that most of the DLC dungeons are significantly more challenging than the average base game dungeons, by design, its on purpose. This is positive, not something to complain about. It provides progression in difficulty of dungeons and a challenge for more capable players and groups.

There are for instance some DLC dungeons that it is very rare to find a pug capable of completion. Why should it be? The dungeons are being designed with teamwork, knowledge of the mechs, high dps in mind, specifically to provide progression from base game normal and vet dungeons.

This can make for some frustrating experiences and grinds for gear, but on balance the challenge available is positive. I also think it is positive that not just anyone can jump into a pug and get some of the best gear in the game.

I would say the progression is (not including hard modes):

Base game normal
Base game vet
DLC normal
DLC vet

Base game vet and DLC normal can be similar and some bosses and mechs can be more challenging or easy in either. Normal Forstvault for instance, I would say is more difficult than Fungal Grotto vet.

I find I am unsure what the OP is actually asking for or suggesting. I mean DLC dungeons are hard and therefore not many people run them regularly. Fine. So what?

The problem is that ZOS is asking players to pay for content that is not designed for most players. This has really been getting on my nerves for years now, and I have NOT purchased the last couple of dungeon DLC because of this. Unfortunately, I'm already paying for ESO+ this whole time, so I am directly subsidizing content that I do not like and do not want. This is especially infuriating because I would be happy if ZOS designed some new "medium" difficulty content like the base game Vet dungeons, but ZOS refuses to do this.

What kind of message do you think you're sending by discontinuing to pay for the same product twice? Why would they change anything if you continue to pay for it with no regard to your own satisfaction?

All the players that are asked to buy/rent new content not designed for them have the option to refuse to. Playing without ESO+ isn't some insurmountable task. I spend more time in load screens/crashes than I do managing inventory, so what's the difference? At least I choose when the inventory management happens.

Loves_guars

I would looooooove to do them. My problem is that I like doing dungeons with friends mostly, but vet DLC (all the new ones that we didn't complete) are too difficult for my party. Normal mode is absolutely a joke on the other side, mobs die instantly. So we never find any dungeons to do, it's very frustrating.
I understand the need to release content for hard core/elite players though. But I think something should be done, like adding an intermediate difficulty for DLC dungeons.

Loves_guars

shimm wrote: »

Some actual stats for the Xbox via the achievement system (not the in-game achievements that tell you nothing)...

Achievement for finishing vet mazzatun was unlocked by .32% of gamers

WOW, holly... I suspect that in PC the number is higher but still, even if it's triple it blows mi mind. Specially considering that 2 out of 4 DLC per year are these dungeons. So basically half of the content is being made only for 1% of the players?

Asardes

I suspect that only 15-20% of the accounts ZOS braggs about are actually active players. There was a player on the forum saying he made 10 accounts during a free play week just to make a guild bank and use the 500 slots there as extra storage. Plus you have casual players who may have bought the base game at a discount, but not the DLCs or ESO+ to access those dungeons, and only log rarely to play quests and whatever. So 1% is not bad if only 10% play.

SidraWillowsky

They're just getting so TEDIOUS at this point, with annoying mechanics that are just in place for the purpose of having new mechanics. I'm looking at the release order of the DLC dungeons

Dragon Bone: Fang Lair, Scalecaller Peak. Both fantastic and I find them enjoyable.

Horns of the Reach: Bloodroot, Falkreath. I'm not SUPER familiar with Falkreath, but Bloodroot is one of my favorites.

Imperial City: White Gold Tower, Imperial City Prison: both enjoyable enough, WGT moreso than ICP

Shadows of the Hist: Cradle of Shadows, Ruins of Mazz. Velidreth is creepy and RoM made me hate Argonians because of the NPC voice, but again, not overly-tedious and satisfying enough to complete.

Wolfhunter: Where things start to get tedious for me. I loathe March of Sacrifices for its tedium, and Moon Hunter isn’t quite as bad, but it’s just sort of bland.

Wrathstone: Frostvault, Depths of Malatar. No thanks and no thanks. There are several boss fights between the two where the mechanics just don’t… work. I’ve never been able to figure out the DoM boss that splits into four.

Scalebreaker: Moongrave, Lair of Maars. Hale naw and hale naw to both. Convoluted, nonsensical mechanics that serve just to make things feel fresh and extend the fights.

Things are getting progressively worse, it seems.

buttaface

MattT1988 wrote: »

What are you talking about when it comes to this? Literally no one I know that regularly does vet DLC dungeons does this. Nobody.

My post was crystal clear.

Maybe no one you know does it, but that doesn't mean someone learning to tank all the various gotchas doesn't need to do it. Fail at trying to turn "no one you know" into "Nobody." LOL, just another fallacy day on gaming forums.

And the retort that the gotchas (I'm not going to give them the credit of calling lazy, archaic design elements "mechanics" in fanboi jargon) repeat is hogwash. They may repeat, but in different ways, you have to block this, but if you try to block that you die. You can dodge this, but you need to stay in that. You have to go to this pad on this boss, but if you go to this pad on the other boss you die. More importantly, if you don't do enough DPS fast enough, you die. Then they compound this by making "speed run" achievements. The gotchas may repeat, but they do so differently per boss. Maybe console gamers accept this better. IMO and IME, long experience, PC gamers dislike this since it was played to death in WOW. Games have moved on from this type of design element, have played FAR HARDER games than this one that have exactly -0- or very little of that arcade level learning stuff. NO good games build a foundation of it, and that's why in a world of better options, this game underperforms so badly.

So yeah, it requires either 1. an unnecessary degree of assinchair time that is not skill to "learn all the levels/sidegames/gotchas/etc." and then remember them and keep them straight, or 2. Actual record keeping and constant reference back to guides and videos. If you find that fun, more power to you. I don't and will wager a vast majority of the game's players don't. I don't want a side accounting ledger job keeping all the crap straight in a monster killing game based on a solo RPG IP. If you do, that's fine.

My argument is not to remove that from the game. The argument is to make all content easily accessible and easily doable by the BROADER player base, while reserving gotcha level learning content for those relative FEW who enjoy it, put it in a manually selected difficulty at the start, but save most of the gotchas for RAIDS. The people who hate it aren't posting here with 10000 postcount, they simply leave the game or stop paying a subscription. This game, unlike other MMOs, is based on a very casual, easy solo player RPG. Yet there is a disconnect between what the game actually is and what they try to shoehorn it into being.

buttaface

Grianasteri wrote: »

Most people are not undertaking DLC dungeons on a regular basis, with Vet DLC being even less frequented. It is also fair to say that most people who do undertake normal or vet DLC dungeons, are doing so mainly for gear, in particular Monster Helms with Vet DLC - and once that gear is acquired will be unlikely to revisit the dungeon other than to help friends/guildies.

The reason of course is that most of the DLC dungeons are significantly more challenging than the average base game dungeons, by design, its on purpose. This is positive, not something to complain about. It provides progression in difficulty of dungeons and a challenge for more capable players and groups.

There are for instance some DLC dungeons that it is very rare to find a pug capable of completion. Why should it be? The dungeons are being designed with teamwork, knowledge of the mechs, high dps in mind, specifically to provide progression from base game normal and vet dungeons.

You describe the problem adequately in the first paragraph, then go into "that's a good thing." WHY? WHY in a game based on an easy single player RPG IP, where I'd argue a vast majority of players come thinking they are going to be continuing Skyrim type play. This isn't "on the job training." It isn't some kind of school or test, so why if what you say in the first paragraph is true, can that be considered a good thing?

If the game trained players to function in teams and required that all along, there might be some merit to a difficulty curve, even a fake one based on gotchas and arcade level learning. But it doesn't. ESO doesn't train the players in doodly squat in the way of team tactical play. It trains them to go to one of the myriad unregulated, risk free exp caves and level up, to crutch on aimbot pets and OP base skills, with not a hint of the gotchas in sight other than perhaps on World Bosses.

Then after a few easy introduction dungeons, walls off THE REST from the player base at large with the gotchas. Solution? Get them OUT of ALL dungeons and make them opt in only, keep them in raids. That way ALL can at least do the content and the ones who enjoy the gotchas still have them available. Who loses in that scenario? Everyone wins.