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When will Pay2Win come?
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Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters
Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet
Etc. Etc Etc.
You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful
My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.
If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.
The last time I did that, they threw in RMTs on top of subs anyway. The best part is this though: the game was ESO.
Nowadays games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs make a very short list, and the only reason why it is not even shorter if we exclude games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs only temporarily as part of bait and switch strategy is that the list has like zero items on it to begin with.
They didn't throw in RMTs on top of subs, they offered them as an alternative - which is a big difference. Moreover, they included enough Crowns in the sub to cover additional purchases if you wanted any. The problem with games these days isn't that they offer alternative ways of contributing to them, it's that there are players who don't want to contribute at all but still want to play the games.2 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
^^^ This. MMOs never changed their sub fees. I was paying $15 a month 20 years ago. Subs were required back then in order to support maintaining the games. Games have become far more complex and far more expensive to maintain and yet the people that play today expect to pay nothing to play the games and complain about the games constantly. The bandwidth and electricity required to run a single mega server is insane.Anotherone773 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters
Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet
Etc. Etc Etc.
You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful
My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.
If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.
The last time I did that, they threw in RMTs on top of subs anyway. The best part is this though: the game was ESO.
Nowadays games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs make a very short list, and the only reason why it is not even shorter if we exclude games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs only temporarily as part of bait and switch strategy is that the list has like zero items on it to begin with.
They didn't throw in RMTs on top of subs, they offered them as an alternative - which is a big difference. Moreover, they included enough Crowns in the sub to cover additional purchases if you wanted any. The problem with games these days isn't that they offer alternative ways of contributing to them, it's that there are players who don't want to contribute at all but still want to play the games.
Then you have personal. Currently ZOS, according to linkedin, has 384 employees. If you assume 84 are working on their android project and 100 work on the next chapter, which you must pay for and thus generates its own income, leaves 200 to run and maintain ESO. If you consider a quite conservative $40k salary per employee using the most base make up and then figure basic costs on top of salary such as employer contributions, workmans comp, and employee benefits then you are right around $11.2 mil a year, or $933,333. a month just to cover employee costs. That is 62,223 subs needed per month just to cover the cost of the staff needed to maintain this free to play game.
Im sure ZOS employees will work for free if we ask them nicely though so we can have unlimited hours of entertainment for free. Its not like they have bills to pay or families to feed or anything like that.
Edited by Anotherone773 on November 30, 2019 5:19PM0 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They shoved away so many players in the last months,..
said every disgruntled player for every publish since morrowind.PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.(Pariah's Pinacle)
"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?' -famous khajiit philosopher0 -
randomkeyhits✭✭✭✭✭Answer is easy enough
about eight months before the game closes down as they milk the utterly last, least amounts cash from the remaining players as is corporately possible.
The real trick is knowing then the game will be closing down.
EU PS40 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭karthrag_inak wrote: »
Three of my raid guilds disbanded after Morrowind dropped, so I’d say people were very much right. Casuals here for Skyrim Online haven’t replaced them in a meaningful way. Completion rates for endgame content are still at minuscule rates even if you factor in the bloated population numbers from bots and free week accounts.
Not to mention there’s even data we can look at that shows a clear downward trend this year. The population drop have been massive. Peak concurrent players right with the Elsweyr hype, and then immediately the population tanked down to what we had last year. The player retention of this game in going into the pits, but ZOS wants churn more than they care about quality of their gameplay, so I guess they aren’t bothered by it.Edited by Contaminate on November 30, 2019 7:33PM2 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anotherone773 wrote: »
^^^ This. MMOs never changed their sub fees. I was paying $15 a month 20 years ago. Subs were required back then in order to support maintaining the games. Games have become far more complex and far more expensive to maintain and yet the people that play today expect to pay nothing to play the games and complain about the games constantly. The bandwidth and electricity required to run a single mega server is insane.Anotherone773 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters
Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet
Etc. Etc Etc.
You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful
My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.
If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.
The last time I did that, they threw in RMTs on top of subs anyway. The best part is this though: the game was ESO.
Nowadays games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs make a very short list, and the only reason why it is not even shorter if we exclude games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs only temporarily as part of bait and switch strategy is that the list has like zero items on it to begin with.
They didn't throw in RMTs on top of subs, they offered them as an alternative - which is a big difference. Moreover, they included enough Crowns in the sub to cover additional purchases if you wanted any. The problem with games these days isn't that they offer alternative ways of contributing to them, it's that there are players who don't want to contribute at all but still want to play the games.
Then you have personal. Currently ZOS, according to linkedin, has 384 employees. If you assume 84 are working on their android project and 100 work on the next chapter, which you must pay for and thus generates its own income, leaves 200 to run and maintain ESO. If you consider a quite conservative $40k salary per employee using the most base make up and then figure basic costs on top of salary such as employer contributions, workmans comp, and employee benefits then you are right around $11.2 mil a year, or $933,333. a month just to cover employee costs. That is 62,223 subs needed per month just to cover the cost of the staff needed to maintain this free to play game.
Im sure ZOS employees will work for free if we ask them nicely though so we can have unlimited hours of entertainment for free. Its not like they have bills to pay or families to feed or anything like that.
1) Bandwidth is getting cheaper over time.
2) So is hardware (as in server housing/hosting).
3) Hardware (machines) is getting simultaneously more powerful and efficient.
4) Games are more complex, but so are tools and middleware, and they are also getting cheaper.
5) Number of potential players is increasing. 60K subs in 2000 would be a spectacular success, in 2019 such game would be shut down even if it was still profitable, simply due to massive opportunity cost of running P2W game instead.
6) 200 people running ESO is almost certainly off by an order of magnitude. You would be surprised how tiny teams can keep servers running. Note that if you needed 20 people to run servers for 10,000 people, running servers for 100,000 or 1,000,000 would still require about 20 people, it does not scale.
7) Nobody here, form the anti-P2W camp, ever demanded a game for free or employees to work for free, but rather a game free of corruption.
RMTs on top of "optional" subs have nothing to do with providing alternatives, cost of bandwidth, hardware, electricity, software complexity or well-being of employees (btw, videogambling has rather poor reputation in that respect), it is simply this:
On the x axis are all possible players, on the y axis money they could spend. If you charge flat $15, your profit is the green area. RMTs are there to extract money from people who can not pay $15 and from people who can pay more than $15 (e.g. for power). Since yellow + green + red is always more money than just green money, and almost certainly by substantial margin, we have what we discussed earlier, i.e. super short list of sub only games regardless of whether green money is enough to keep lights on or not.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »P2W elements are already is in this game.
It came with the 1st dungeon DLC. Dungeon DLC stuff (and some chapter trials) are significantly more powerful than what base game has to offer (and the power creep will make it worse as the time passes). Granted, you still need to "grind" the gear (I know, it is painful), but since there is NO other way to get this gear (you have to pay-to-get-access to that gear) - lets be clear - it is P2W. It fits the description of "paying for advantage".
That's not pay-to-win. That's typical (quality) MMO stuff. I'm all for supporting a game I love by buying DLCs/Chapters/Expansions/ETC. The game would get awfully stale without new content, and I'm not self-entitled enough to even think I ought to get access to new content for free.
Of course new content is going to give you access to "more powerful" equipment/items. That's one of their main selling points. But that doesn't make them pay-to-win. That's ludicrous.
Agreed. It's paying for new content, and unless you're happy playing at base game level caps for years on end then you're always going to want the new content release to involve some sort of leveling advance which will result in more powerful gear (and mobs). That doesn't make the additional content DLCs P2W any more than buying the original base game was P2W.
Exactly. You and the person you quoted explain this clearly and ofc correctly.2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Contaminate wrote: »The game is already pay-to-win unless one is using a very narrow and contextually irrelevant understanding of the term. Furthermore, obsessively fixating on whether or not something is or isn't pay-to-win completely misses the fact that this game is rife with predatory monetization regardless.
Nah, you have an option to buy things or not. Your decision has no impact on the game itself. You can spend thousands of dollars and a player that only paid for the base game can still kick your a$$ in Cyrodiil. The game is only predatory if you allow yourself to be prey. You don't need a wolf with purple stripes to play the game.
And of course people like you would parrot the same story even when 5% damage boosts end up in the store because "a player that only paid for the base game can still kick your a$$ in Cyrodiil"
No a 5% boost that can't be obtained in game would of course be pay to win. I guess I should have just come out and said it but I assumed people would know my scenario would involve players of similar skill levels. This game is not pay to win.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Nordic__Knights✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorry to inform you once again ITS ALREADY HERE HAS BEEN SINCE ESO+ SUB ADDED CRAFTING BAG !!!!!!!0 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭It is already here.
If you can convert cash to crown to gold and then use gold to purchase runs and purchase tempers to gold everything then effectively you can start at level 50, grind your cp to 160 and pay cash to get BiS everywhere.
If that isn't P2W then what is?1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is already here.
If you can convert cash to crown to gold and then use gold to purchase runs and purchase tempers to gold everything then effectively you can start at level 50, grind your cp to 160 and pay cash to get BiS everywhere.
If that isn't P2W then what is?
Something that can ONLY be purchased with cash, that gives you power/advantage that isn't available without cash.
Buying a run, regardless of how you do it, is not "pay to win".2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is already here.
If you can convert cash to crown to gold and then use gold to purchase runs and purchase tempers to gold everything then effectively you can start at level 50, grind your cp to 160 and pay cash to get BiS everywhere.
If that isn't P2W then what is?
P2W has been explained very well multiple times and your attempt did not add to it.
With your example you did not explain anything that made them stronger then they could have obtained in game otherwise. They are obtaining the very same gear and skills I am which is why it is not even close to P2W.
I am not suggesting being able to trade crown store items for gold in game does not cause other issues, but what you explained, as you explained it, is not one of them.0 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭Contaminate wrote: »The game is already pay-to-win unless one is using a very narrow and contextually irrelevant understanding of the term. Furthermore, obsessively fixating on whether or not something is or isn't pay-to-win completely misses the fact that this game is rife with predatory monetization regardless.
Nah, you have an option to buy things or not. Your decision has no impact on the game itself. You can spend thousands of dollars and a player that only paid for the base game can still kick your a$$ in Cyrodiil. The game is only predatory if you allow yourself to be prey. You don't need a wolf with purple stripes to play the game.
And of course people like you would parrot the same story even when 5% damage boosts end up in the store because "a player that only paid for the base game can still kick your a$$ in Cyrodiil"
No a 5% boost that can't be obtained in game would of course be pay to win. I guess I should have just come out and said it but I assumed people would know my scenario would involve players of similar skill levels. This game is not pay to win.
You can get even more than that, you can have 6% extra of all your max resources, you can have 8% damage mitigation, and can access skills another player of equal skill cannot have without paying. This is called the <50 campaign, where there's already severe imbalances between those who dump cash and those who don't. Max Undaunted is not obtainable for a <50 player, max psijic, fighter's guild, and mage's guild can't be obtained by a player <50. Exp is earned too fast for someone to be <50 after maxing all that. If you can show otherwise, then by all means show it.
We have a 30% damage boost only available for cash. We have a 10% max hp buff that is only available for cash, which was taken from a base game skill to specifically make it a paid-class only buff.
Patch Notes v4.2.0War Horn: This ability and its morphs no longer grant Minor Toughness.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
This change was made to give Wardens the ability to provide a unique buff (Minor Toughness) to groups.
Even by the most absurdly strict definition, this game is offering P2W options.0 -
akdave0✭✭✭✭I’m fine with it, because that’s the way the real world works. Release god weapons and armor just code them to be pve only. It affects no one then. Not everyone has time or skill to grind vma or vet trials. Let me buy those things because I am lazy and have disposable income.1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Patch Notes v4.2.0Contaminate wrote: »quote]War Horn: This ability and its morphs no longer grant Minor Toughness.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
This change was made to give Wardens the ability to provide a unique buff (Minor Toughness) to groups.
Even by the most absurdly strict definition, this game is offering P2W options.[/quote]
If DLC or Expansion content makes a game p2w, then every game with a multiplayer component, that ever sold an expansion, has been p2w. Diablo 2, WoW, Everquest, everything. (and if everything in an expansion was worse than things in the base game, people would scream to high heavens about how dare they charge for this garbage)
At some point, you have to limit a definition, if you want it to mean anything at all. Hell, you can't win a game without buying it, so every paid game in the history of mankind has been "pay to win". ("immersion" has the same problem. So many varied things have been complained about as "ruining mah immershun!", that the word has become pointless. It's a vague club to be wielded at literally any game feature that you don't like.)2 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »
If DLC or Expansion content makes a game p2w, then every game with a multiplayer component, that ever sold an expansion, has been p2w. Diablo 2, WoW, Everquest, everything. (and if everything in an expansion was worse than things in the base game, people would scream to high heavens about how dare they charge for this garbage)
At some point, you have to limit a definition, if you want it to mean anything at all. Hell, you can't win a game without buying it, so every paid game in the history of mankind has been "pay to win". ("immersion" has the same problem. So many varied things have been complained about as "ruining mah immershun!", that the word has become pointless. It's a vague club to be wielded at literally any game feature that you don't like.)
Let me repeat, a buff from the base game, that was there since launch, was removed so the only source is a paid class.
A class having their own unique abilities is one thing, that’s a standard you’re right, but a 30% damage buff inaccessible except by a paid class is very different. That’s not “class flair”, that’s directly overpowered for sales. I doubt anyone’s forgotten the full necro dps runs because there’s absolutely nothing comparable to their ult.
And even putting all that aside, you still completely ignore how ridiculously unbalanced <50 campaigns are because of P2W problems. Buying skillpoints and skill lines en masse gives immense and unmatchable advantages in those campaigns. So please explain how it isn’t P2W for a lvl10, the level at which stats are the most inflated due to scaling, to have access to all maxed guild lines, with as many skill points as they want, so long as they shell out some cash.
Here’s my definition: If achieving a power level using ingame means is unreasonably time consuming compared to paying, or if gameplay is intentionally made to be frustrating without paying, that is P2W.
If vWA weapons were placed in the store, that would be P2W.
A motif on the Master Writ table that only drops in 1/10ths and has RNG attached and cannot be reasonably farmed from completions on normal, that is P2W.
A 30% damage buff only available on a paid class, that is P2W.
Inventory management taking hours of game time from people who play at endgame and play multiple rolls on multiple toons, then offering “solutions” that require spending cash instead of raising the bank or character inventory cap even one time, that is P2W.
There were small pieces of P2W that didn’t make or break the gameplay back when there were less sets and less items, we’ve been crossing that line for a while now.Edited by Contaminate on December 1, 2019 5:31PM1 -
Avrael✭✭✭✭The worst thing about p2w is, when it gets so normal that people dont realize anymore when confronted with it.
In my humble opinion, p2w doesnt need to have something ONLY available for cash, but already if buying it is a much easier way of getting it ingame. If a good weapon would be in the shop to buy instantly, or in the game to farm 500 raids for, ye, that would be p2w even tho you COULD get it in the game."I mustache you a question."
"Well shave it for later."2 -
Mrtoobyy✭✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »
^^^ This. MMOs never changed their sub fees. I was paying $15 a month 20 years ago. Subs were required back then in order to support maintaining the games. Games have become far more complex and far more expensive to maintain and yet the people that play today expect to pay nothing to play the games and complain about the games constantly. The bandwidth and electricity required to run a single mega server is insane.Anotherone773 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters
Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet
Etc. Etc Etc.
You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful
My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.
If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.
The last time I did that, they threw in RMTs on top of subs anyway. The best part is this though: the game was ESO.
Nowadays games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs make a very short list, and the only reason why it is not even shorter if we exclude games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs only temporarily as part of bait and switch strategy is that the list has like zero items on it to begin with.
They didn't throw in RMTs on top of subs, they offered them as an alternative - which is a big difference. Moreover, they included enough Crowns in the sub to cover additional purchases if you wanted any. The problem with games these days isn't that they offer alternative ways of contributing to them, it's that there are players who don't want to contribute at all but still want to play the games.
Then you have personal. Currently ZOS, according to linkedin, has 384 employees. If you assume 84 are working on their android project and 100 work on the next chapter, which you must pay for and thus generates its own income, leaves 200 to run and maintain ESO. If you consider a quite conservative $40k salary per employee using the most base make up and then figure basic costs on top of salary such as employer contributions, workmans comp, and employee benefits then you are right around $11.2 mil a year, or $933,333. a month just to cover employee costs. That is 62,223 subs needed per month just to cover the cost of the staff needed to maintain this free to play game.
Im sure ZOS employees will work for free if we ask them nicely though so we can have unlimited hours of entertainment for free. Its not like they have bills to pay or families to feed or anything like that.
This comment!
Been playing ESO since Beta and I may be biased but like you said. We buy a PRODUCT and "consume" it.... With the monthly subscription gone they have to find new ways to make their income steady. And IMO I think ESO's crown store is a nice addition to "you" as a consumer giving options ranging from DLC's, cosmetics, necessities( banker, merchan) etc.
The crafting/overland sets from DLC's can be bought from players wich I have done many times. My last was New moon acolytes set someone made.
To summarize this I really don't think ESO will become P2W. The only complain I have about new DLC, Crownstore items etc is to set it aside for a time and improve the bugs, animations and functions of the base game. Make it more of a stable gaming experience at this point THEN add new stuff to sell.0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
ESO is P2W already - Dungeon DLC 5 pcs sets.The crafting/overland sets from DLC's can be bought from players wich I have done many times. My last was New moon acolytes set someone made.
To summarize this I really don't think ESO will become P2W. The only complain I have about new DLC, Crownstore items etc is to set it aside for a time and improve the bugs, animations and functions of the base game. Make it more of a stable gaming experience at this point THEN add new stuff to sell.
I think we can all agree that those are significantly more powerful than base game sets and overland DLC sets.
It is power Creep, and is technically an "necessary evil" just to make people play the game and prevent "staling". But Power Creep can and eventually will cause unbalance, and if it is locked behind pay wall - it will cause P2W eventually.
It is only a matter of time, and in case of ESO - it already happened.
CP was not incensed and every skill nerfed, and yet DPS is going up.... I wonder why....
As far as I know there is no way to have access to those DLC Dungeon sets (even limited) other than paying RL cash and buying either Dungeon DLC or ESO+.
In short, in order to have access to most powerful sets, you have to pay.
So basically it fits the P2W description perfectly. Paying to have (access to) better gear, buying advantage for RL money.
I know, it is not immediate access. You still have to grind it. But, base game Dungeon sets, you also have to grind to get (that is why I deliberately omitted this).
But the thing about those DLC Dungeons sets is that because DLC Dungeons are much harder to do (vs base game ones) it creates this illusion:"I got this gear not because I paid for it, but because of my skill".
Now here is an interesting part:
I dont think that DLC Monster sets are P2W. Why ? Well, because, even if you dont buy DLC Dungeon - you still can get those.
Undaunted Vendor sells Shoulders and Gold vendor occasionally sells Helmets. That means, there is a way to "have access" to this gear in other way than spending RL cash, therefore it is not P2W.
^ That is why I really think that ZOS should update gold vendor to sell random DLC 5 Pcs set peace each weekend. It would still take a lot of time to complete a full set (1 - 2 years probably), but no one would say that it is P2W.
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on December 1, 2019 10:38PM1 -
Kelces✭✭✭✭✭I don't see any significant difference. The crown store offers nothing of real value to advance in content. Sure, you have your gimmicks like the whole selection of crafting tables for your home, only some of those are not accessible for everyone. But who really cares a lot for carfted sets anymore, if you talk about serious advantages people expect nowadays?
So let's look at other examples:
ESO+ maybe?
Double the numbers of tranmute crystals and more space in general. That can be compensated if you are a clever salesman, or simply don't hoard everything non-essential and are content without multi-millions of gold. And transmutations are regularely done anyway, if you are after advancing your character(s).You reveal yourself best in how you play.
Kelces - Argonian Templar
Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
Jurupari - Argonian Warden
Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
PC - EU
For the Pact!0 -
Kalante✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
ESO is P2W already - Dungeon DLC 5 pcs sets.The crafting/overland sets from DLC's can be bought from players wich I have done many times. My last was New moon acolytes set someone made.
To summarize this I really don't think ESO will become P2W. The only complain I have about new DLC, Crownstore items etc is to set it aside for a time and improve the bugs, animations and functions of the base game. Make it more of a stable gaming experience at this point THEN add new stuff to sell.
I think we can all agree that those are significantly more powerful than base game sets and overland DLC sets.
It is power Creep, and is technically an "necessary evil" just to make people play the game and prevent "staling". But Power Creep can and eventually will cause unbalance, and if it is locked behind pay wall - it will cause P2W eventually.
It is only a matter of time, and in case of ESO - it already happened.
CP was not incensed and every skill nerfed, and yet DPS is going up.... I wonder why....
As far as I know there is no way to have access to those DLC Dungeon sets (even limited) other than paying RL cash and buying either Dungeon DLC or ESO+.
In short, in order to have access to most powerful sets, you have to pay.
So basically it fits the P2W description perfectly. Paying to have (access to) better gear, buying advantage for RL money.
I know, it is not immediate access. You still have to grind it. But, base game Dungeon sets, you also have to grind to get (that is why I deliberately omitted this).
But the thing about those DLC Dungeons sets is that because DLC Dungeons are much harder to do (vs base game ones) it creates this illusion:"I got this gear not because I paid for it, but because of my skill".
Now here is an interesting part:
I dont think that DLC Monster sets are P2W. Why ? Well, because, even if you dont buy DLC Dungeon - you still can get those.
Undaunted Vendor sells Shoulders and Gold vendor occasionally sells Helmets. That means, there is a way to "have access" to this gear in other way than spending RL cash, therefore it is not P2W.
^ That is why I really think that ZOS should update gold vendor to sell random DLC 5 Pcs set peace each weekend. It would still take a lot of time to complete a full set (1 - 2 years probably), but no one would say that it is P2W.
I agree with this this. Of all sets in the vanilla game nothing comes even remotely close to lokkestiiz and relequen dps. Which are sets you can only get by paying for elsweyr and summerset. It's pretty sad when I see guilds asking for 80k-90k dps. I remember before elsweyr "the worst upate imo" removed a lot of gear diversity. I remember I could run briarheart, vicious ophidian, vicious serpent, hundings rage, sheer venom, spriggans, advancing yokeda. You could mix and match them and still get the same damage of 50k dps on the 3m dummy. There was a lot of sets to choose from. Now you put on lokkestiiz and there is a huge gap in dps that is not even funny. My stam nb has advancing yokeda with relequen (a paid set) Still not enough to reach 80k. I remove advancing to put lokkestiiz in and now it can reach 86k dps, yea ok... Why can't I do that with vanilla sets? why do I have to run dlc sets to have competitive damage? Keep in mind that the stamina necromancer is the only class that can hit way beyond 90k. A paid class.... Instead we got people here debating whether a pig that raises your inventory slots by 5 spaces if its pay to win? LOLEdited by Kalante on December 1, 2019 11:58PM1 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean, you already can unlock entire skill-lines on low-level characters with fully-ranked morphs to boot provided you done it on one character before. That's pretty advantageous in lvl <50 PvP... THAT is pretty borderline in my opinion. It's starting to feel like they want to push the boundaries on transactions little-by-little so that players don't notice how much the store is taking over actual game-play.0 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hopefully p2w will never happen I want to see eso get better not worse.Edited by Deathlord92 on December 2, 2019 1:39AM0 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭whyn the 6th cycle of tamriel doth move to the unknown land
the merchant of crowns will yield a rich man's boon on the field of dishonour❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Who are you in Tamriel (whether it's just your character's attitude & style or a full backstory)? - Share your Character's Story! ◔ ⌣ ◔
(And let us know 🔷What Kind of Roleplayer You Are🔷 - even if that only extends to choosing your race)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Support Mudcrab Mode for ESO (\/)!_!(\/) - part joke, part serious, all glorious! You butter be ready for this0 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭The real question is:
Why would you ever use 'Trashfire 76' when you have the bounty that is calling it Failout 76?PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It all depends on what you understand as "Pay2Win". If your game is cosmetics and crafting, the game is already P2W. You can't make Stahlrim, Grim Harlequin or Tscaesi Akaviri style items without paying and most motifs are so rare that unless you are crazy rich ingame you can't hope to learn all styles.
Housing is even more Pay2Win than cosmetics.
ESO doesn't even have a "mount game" so to speak of because almost all mounts are crown store exclusives.
Inventory management isn't a game as much as it is a chore, but if it was, paying players would be winning it.
There are only two things ZOS will probably never do in regards to P2W. They will probably never give solid combat advantages to paying players and they will not add time skips and unlocks for your first character. As long as they dance around that line without crossing it, there will always be people defending them and saying "it's not P2W".This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »
^^^ This. MMOs never changed their sub fees. I was paying $15 a month 20 years ago. Subs were required back then in order to support maintaining the games. Games have become far more complex and far more expensive to maintain and yet the people that play today expect to pay nothing to play the games and complain about the games constantly. The bandwidth and electricity required to run a single mega server is insane.Anotherone773 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters
Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet
Etc. Etc Etc.
You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful
My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.
If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.
The last time I did that, they threw in RMTs on top of subs anyway. The best part is this though: the game was ESO.
Nowadays games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs make a very short list, and the only reason why it is not even shorter if we exclude games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs only temporarily as part of bait and switch strategy is that the list has like zero items on it to begin with.
They didn't throw in RMTs on top of subs, they offered them as an alternative - which is a big difference. Moreover, they included enough Crowns in the sub to cover additional purchases if you wanted any. The problem with games these days isn't that they offer alternative ways of contributing to them, it's that there are players who don't want to contribute at all but still want to play the games.
Then you have personal. Currently ZOS, according to linkedin, has 384 employees. If you assume 84 are working on their android project and 100 work on the next chapter, which you must pay for and thus generates its own income, leaves 200 to run and maintain ESO. If you consider a quite conservative $40k salary per employee using the most base make up and then figure basic costs on top of salary such as employer contributions, workmans comp, and employee benefits then you are right around $11.2 mil a year, or $933,333. a month just to cover employee costs. That is 62,223 subs needed per month just to cover the cost of the staff needed to maintain this free to play game.
Im sure ZOS employees will work for free if we ask them nicely though so we can have unlimited hours of entertainment for free. Its not like they have bills to pay or families to feed or anything like that.
1) Bandwidth is getting cheaper over time.
2) So is hardware (as in server housing/hosting).
3) Hardware (machines) is getting simultaneously more powerful and efficient.
4) Games are more complex, but so are tools and middleware, and they are also getting cheaper.
5) Number of potential players is increasing. 60K subs in 2000 would be a spectacular success, in 2019 such game would be shut down even if it was still profitable, simply due to massive opportunity cost of running P2W game instead.
6) 200 people running ESO is almost certainly off by an order of magnitude. You would be surprised how tiny teams can keep servers running. Note that if you needed 20 people to run servers for 10,000 people, running servers for 100,000 or 1,000,000 would still require about 20 people, it does not scale.
7) Nobody here, form the anti-P2W camp, ever demanded a game for free or employees to work for free, but rather a game free of corruption.
RMTs on top of "optional" subs have nothing to do with providing alternatives, cost of bandwidth, hardware, electricity, software complexity or well-being of employees (btw, videogambling has rather poor reputation in that respect), it is simply this:
On the x axis are all possible players, on the y axis money they could spend. If you charge flat $15, your profit is the green area. RMTs are there to extract money from people who can not pay $15 and from people who can pay more than $15 (e.g. for power). Since yellow + green + red is always more money than just green money, and almost certainly by substantial margin, we have what we discussed earlier, i.e. super short list of sub only games regardless of whether green money is enough to keep lights on or not.
Wow all that sounds super smart. Dont know what i could say except...
Um its not correct.
1) Bandwidth cost is balanced by bandwidth demands
2) Cost reduction balanced by demands again.
3) Irrelevant except to say that you need less to do more, except this is also balance by "more" always growing.
4) This is 1000% incorrect. Even if adjusted for inflation its not even close.
5) There are many many games that survive on less than 60k subs.LOTRO does not have 60k subs, probably has never had 60k subs and has been around since about WW2. Why do you think a profitable game would shut down? As a business owner, that makes zero sense no matter how you spin it.
6) I dont think you have any idea what it takes to run an MMO."Running a server" is not running a MMO. Software runs servers, tech people monitor servers. They are a tiny tiny portion of the staff required to run an MMO, if they are even in house. The people who run the actual game are developers...programmers, artists, story writers, lore masters, project managers, etc on the content side and then HR, accountants, lawyers, managers, and other general business professions on the business side. It doesnt take a couple of dudes in their mom's basement with a 16u rack to make ESO happen. It takes an entire corporate structure with teams of professionals to produce and maintain that game world you see.
7) Free of corruption? What is corrupt? A company that wants to make a profit? Do YOU want to make a profit? OR are you ok with breaking even? Because if you are ok with breaking even, i have a hundred positions open. Bring some like minded friends.
This is all strawman stuff, even the little graph is a strawman.
This game is not p2w. There is nothing bought with crowns that cannot be obtained without crowns that gives a RMP an advantage. Please Please go play "Game of War" on mobile. Take in the very definition of pay2win. Learn it. Understand it. Embrace it. You can feel it sucking the money out of your bank account. Its like a giant niffler. And if someone feels that its p2w and they cant accept that, then they should cancel their account. Its not like they were helping keeping the game running anyway, so we wont be missing their contribution.Edited by Anotherone773 on December 2, 2019 6:10AM2 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
^^^ This. MMOs never changed their sub fees. I was paying $15 a month 20 years ago. Subs were required back then in order to support maintaining the games. Games have become far more complex and far more expensive to maintain and yet the people that play today expect to pay nothing to play the games and complain about the games constantly. The bandwidth and electricity required to run a single mega server is insane.Anotherone773 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters
Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet
Etc. Etc Etc.
You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful
My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.
If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.
The last time I did that, they threw in RMTs on top of subs anyway. The best part is this though: the game was ESO.
Nowadays games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs make a very short list, and the only reason why it is not even shorter if we exclude games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs only temporarily as part of bait and switch strategy is that the list has like zero items on it to begin with.
They didn't throw in RMTs on top of subs, they offered them as an alternative - which is a big difference. Moreover, they included enough Crowns in the sub to cover additional purchases if you wanted any. The problem with games these days isn't that they offer alternative ways of contributing to them, it's that there are players who don't want to contribute at all but still want to play the games.
Then you have personal. Currently ZOS, according to linkedin, has 384 employees. If you assume 84 are working on their android project and 100 work on the next chapter, which you must pay for and thus generates its own income, leaves 200 to run and maintain ESO. If you consider a quite conservative $40k salary per employee using the most base make up and then figure basic costs on top of salary such as employer contributions, workmans comp, and employee benefits then you are right around $11.2 mil a year, or $933,333. a month just to cover employee costs. That is 62,223 subs needed per month just to cover the cost of the staff needed to maintain this free to play game.
Im sure ZOS employees will work for free if we ask them nicely though so we can have unlimited hours of entertainment for free. Its not like they have bills to pay or families to feed or anything like that.
1) Bandwidth is getting cheaper over time.
2) So is hardware (as in server housing/hosting).
3) Hardware (machines) is getting simultaneously more powerful and efficient.
4) Games are more complex, but so are tools and middleware, and they are also getting cheaper.
5) Number of potential players is increasing. 60K subs in 2000 would be a spectacular success, in 2019 such game would be shut down even if it was still profitable, simply due to massive opportunity cost of running P2W game instead.
6) 200 people running ESO is almost certainly off by an order of magnitude. You would be surprised how tiny teams can keep servers running. Note that if you needed 20 people to run servers for 10,000 people, running servers for 100,000 or 1,000,000 would still require about 20 people, it does not scale.
7) Nobody here, form the anti-P2W camp, ever demanded a game for free or employees to work for free, but rather a game free of corruption.
RMTs on top of "optional" subs have nothing to do with providing alternatives, cost of bandwidth, hardware, electricity, software complexity or well-being of employees (btw, videogambling has rather poor reputation in that respect), it is simply this:
On the x axis are all possible players, on the y axis money they could spend. If you charge flat $15, your profit is the green area. RMTs are there to extract money from people who can not pay $15 and from people who can pay more than $15 (e.g. for power). Since yellow + green + red is always more money than just green money, and almost certainly by substantial margin, we have what we discussed earlier, i.e. super short list of sub only games regardless of whether green money is enough to keep lights on or not.
Wow all that sounds super smart. Dont know what i could say except...
Um its not correct.
1) Bandwidth cost is balanced by bandwidth demands
2) Cost reduction balanced by demands again.
3) Irrelevant except to say that you need less to do more, except this is also balance by "more" always growing.
4) This is 1000% incorrect. Even if adjusted for inflation its not even close.
5) There are many many games that survive on less than 60k subs.LOTRO does not have 60k subs, probably has never had 60k subs and has been around since about WW2. Why do you think a profitable game would shut down? As a business owner, that makes zero sense no matter how you spin it.
6) I dont think you have any idea what it takes to run an MMO."Running a server" is not running a MMO. Software runs servers, tech people monitor servers. They are a tiny tiny portion of the staff required to run an MMO, if they are even in house. The people who run the actual game are developers...programmers, artists, story writers, lore masters, project managers, etc on the content side and then HR, accountants, lawyers, managers, and other general business professions on the business side. It doesnt take a couple of dudes in their mom's basement with a 16u rack to make ESO happen. It takes an entire corporate structure with teams of professionals to produce and maintain that game world you see.
7) Free of corruption? What is corrupt? A company that wants to make a profit? Do YOU want to make a profit? OR are you ok with breaking even? Because if you are ok with breaking even, i have a hundred positions open. Bring some like minded friends.
This is all strawman stuff, even the little graph is a strawman.
This game is not p2w. There is nothing bought with crowns that cannot be obtained without crowns that gives a RMP an advantage. Please Please go play "Game of War" on mobile. Take in the very definition of pay2win. Learn it. Understand it. Embrace it. You can feel it sucking the money out of your bank account. Its like a giant niffler. And if someone feels that its p2w and they cant accept that, then they should cancel their account. Its not like they were helping keeping the game running anyway, so we wont be missing their contribution.
1/2) No, definitely not by demands of MMOs.
3) That is, along with economies of scale, what makes 1 and 2 possible.
4) Technical complexity increases over time across the board (sometimes to pathological degree), also of games by tiny teams that obviously could not have achieved it by throwing more bodies on them nor spending untold millions of dollars on tools. They had low to no cost software to build on top of. Needless to say that big, well funded teams do exactly the same.
5/6) Now how could LOTRO possibly survive with <60K subs, hm? We have just established that 60K+ is needed to feed 200 employees. It could have, say, especially predatory non-sub RMTs, but if its addictologists and monetization experts were that good, they would be long gone, outpaid by some larger videogambling company. More likely, the company that operates LOTRO now does not have to feed 200 employees to run it, because to maintain requires less than to produce.
Generally there is an opportunity cost of running LOTRO instead of doing something else, and also of using LOTR brand to run LOTRO instead of something else. Furthermore, while LOTRO is in a sense a successful game (compared to games of its era it might be donwright spectacular, if rare success) and presumably makes some money, videogambling companies are not in the business to try to make LOTRO money, but to try to make Fortnite money. Therefore, it would make sense to a) use the team to make something else and b) use the brand to make something else. Conversely, if the team is indeed just a couple of dudes only good for keeping LOTRO on life support or if the license to the brand would expire, shutting it down would not be wise. Deliberately wasting the licence on irrelevant game would make sense too in certain circumstances, but as Amazon is reportedly making LOTR MMORPG, that does not seem to be the case.
7) Profit is alright, making profit by skewing a game in favour of certain players in exchange for money is not. To better illustrate it, a sport association or referees making money through, say, fees paid by participants (or spectators, or both) in some competition it organizes is fine. But if it instead, or rather on top of, fees take additional money from some participants and skew rules in their favour, they are corrupt.Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »War Horn: This ability and its morphs no longer grant Minor Toughness.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
This change was made to give Wardens the ability to provide a unique buff (Minor Toughness) to groups.
Patch Notes v4.2.0
Even by the most absurdly strict definition, this game is offering P2W options.
If DLC or Expansion content makes a game p2w...
DLCs do not make a game P2W. If they did not contain OP items, skills etc., or these items were available with equal effort in the base game too, or paying/not paying (as much) players were segregated, DLCs would be just fine.
But then they would not sell well, unless they actually enhanced gameplay and were fun. Which they largely do/are not and rely instead on P2W elements in form of OP items, skills etc..Kiralyn2000 wrote: »...then every game with a multiplayer component, that ever sold an expansion, has been p2w. Diablo 2, WoW, Everquest, everything. (and if everything in an expansion was worse than things in the base game, people would scream to high heavens about how dare they charge for this garbage)
At some point, you have to limit a definition, if you want it to mean anything at all. Hell, you can't win a game without buying it, so every paid game in the history of mankind has been "pay to win".
Without buying it, you do not participate, let alone compete with anyone. Nobody is buying advantage over you.Kiralyn2000 wrote: »("immersion" has the same problem. So many varied things have been complained about as "ruining mah immershun!", that the word has become pointless. It's a vague club to be wielded at literally any game feature that you don't like.)Edited by JamilaRaj on December 5, 2019 11:56PM0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4&t=7s