When will Pay2Win come?

Tandor

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

P2W means you can buy advantage in competitive play through real money purchases in the cash shop of items that are better than those corresponding items that can be earned in the game. So, for example, if you can only earn a +5 weapon in a game through questing or trials etc but you can buy a +6 weapon in the cash shop with real money then that is P2W.

Which is fallacious example. What a player can obtain is largely function of time, i.e. at any given moment there is only so much that could have been obtained by playing. If it is +4 weapon for given player, then +5 weapon in the cash shop is just as P2W as +6 weapon, even though +5 is not cash-shop only like +6 weapon.
Likewise, if best what you can put together at given moment is blue gear, then ESO is P2W, because cash-to-gold conversion via cash shop allows you to upgrade to gold, which would grant you an advantage in competitive play.

It's not fallacious at all. If the best weapon is obtainable in the game then it's inclusion in a cash shop is not Pay to Win, it's Pay for Convenience.

Personally, I'm against Pay for Convenience items - such as skill points in the Crown Store - and I'm also against trading Crowns for gold which is simply a developer's attempt to keep RMT transactions in-house, but they are not Pay to Win because they are not the sole province of those willing to spend real money, they are also available to those willing to spend the in-game time (and thereby in some cases in-game gold) to acquire them.

mayasunrising

According to The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, witch; September 3rd, 2022 at approximately 3:45:24pm EST.

validifyedneb18_ESO

How far must the game go, I wonder, before "paying for convenience" starts to *** even the most ardent deffenders off.

"Psijic skill line is a ***-take when you have to do it on every alt for BIS abilities" -> ZOS happily adds the ability to buy fully trained skill lines.
"Inventory is a massive pain in the ass, can be get a craftbag outside of ESO+ because I litterally cant play the game without" -> ZOS adds a pet with +5 carry capacity account wide, and hideously expensive merchant and banker followers.

Yes, you can get all this stuff in game, if you have 500 hours for every 1 hour that happy-go-lucky mr-microtransaction has. I came to play a game, but the fun is being sucked out to encourage people to lap up the microtranactions to skip the carefully crafted boredom simulators.

EchoirVarsoj

After seeing this year they introduced skyshard and skil lines packs being unlocked only with crowns and the pet boar. I can only imagine they are going to keep going forward with these advantage Crown-Store-limited-to products. My poor ESO

idk

Tandor wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

P2W means you can buy advantage in competitive play through real money purchases in the cash shop of items that are better than those corresponding items that can be earned in the game. So, for example, if you can only earn a +5 weapon in a game through questing or trials etc but you can buy a +6 weapon in the cash shop with real money then that is P2W.

Exactly. Though some are twisting that definition long held by serious gamers to suit their arguments. That doesn’t actuality change the definition. It just means it is pointless to have a discussion with them.

hakan

Curious_Death wrote: »

pay2win

compare dlc gear to non-dlc

fight with non-dlc gear vs dlc -gear friend...

finally compare non-dlc gear on 50m dummy vs dlc gear

have fun !

sure you use your dlc sets and ill use SPRIGGANS/BS/FURY sets which is in the base game and also bis for many builds.

many dlc dungeon/trial sets are also very situational.

xaraan

In the end, that depends on how each player defines what "winning" in this game is.

Personally, I think inventory management is a big part of MMO games like this and selling inventory upgrade items in the crown store that are not available any other way is P2W.

Certainly, it is less frustrating that someone being able to buy a magical sword that is more powerful than yours and lets them beat you at fights, but let's be real - this is not a competitive game anyway - even in the competitive game types. You are just as likely to die in pvp for example to lag, bugs, zergs, etc. as to someone's gear. There have been so many exploits and flat out cheats in the game that leaderboards mean little. I could go on. My point is that selling anything in the crown store that you cannot get in game bugs me, however we make an exception for cosmetics, but even that can get annoying sometimes.

If the game is designed in a way to make the only way to get cosmetics that are decent is to buy them, then I have an issue with it. Should be options in game and there are, especially with the outfit system now. So they don't do too badly here. This game design applies elsewhere as well -- there isn't an issue with "pay for convenience" as a concept, the problem comes when the game is designed to be inconvenient as possible to make paying for it the most appealing option. Players were not happy to buy skyshards, mage guild, etc. b/c it was just convenient but because of how much they hated actually doing it in game and when you have players that hate playing a part of your game, then something is wrong. I'd bet money that some of those convenience purchases are more directly tied to how much of a pain it is to do it in game, for example I'd bet they sell more MG than FG skill lines. Which means whatever is coming next chapter, if you have to go around and learn shouts, it will be as grindy or more than the psijic skill line b/c now they know they can sell it to the ones that hate that and the others will just deal with it.

But in the end, you'll have players that only think P2W is a magic weapon you can't get any way but cash (even if it doesn't let them win) and you'll also have players that will make excuses to matter what b/c they are fans (you see it in 76 now).

dcam86b14_ESO

someone has underlying emotional issues that need to be resolved before trying to push them on to others.

NordSwordnBoard

Hopefully after Mrs. Pay to win, but they are both about instant gratification, so...

JamilaRaj

Tandor wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

P2W means you can buy advantage in competitive play through real money purchases in the cash shop of items that are better than those corresponding items that can be earned in the game. So, for example, if you can only earn a +5 weapon in a game through questing or trials etc but you can buy a +6 weapon in the cash shop with real money then that is P2W.

Which is fallacious example. What a player can obtain is largely function of time, i.e. at any given moment there is only so much that could have been obtained by playing. If it is +4 weapon for given player, then +5 weapon in the cash shop is just as P2W as +6 weapon, even though +5 is not cash-shop only like +6 weapon.
Likewise, if best what you can put together at given moment is blue gear, then ESO is P2W, because cash-to-gold conversion via cash shop allows you to upgrade to gold, which would grant you an advantage in competitive play.

It's not fallacious at all. If the best weapon is obtainable in the game then it's inclusion in a cash shop is not Pay to Win, it's Pay for Convenience.

To be super blunt about it, the fallacy is in that "obtainable" and "in the game" are two different things and should not be lumped together as deceptive "obtainable in the game". As I said, there is a cap on gear (or generally power) that is largely function of time. Only finite gear (power) can be obtained in finite time. +4 weapon takes some time to get and +5 takes some more time to get (typically). If, for a given player, the cap is +4 weapon, then +5 weapon is literally unobtainable, even though it is in the game, not only the cash shop, and seemingly "obtainable".
To be more philosphical about it, +5 weapon in the game and the same +5 weapon in the cash shop are not the same weapons; the cash shop version takes zero time/effort to get and that is precisely why players would buy it, because it would improve they power per time ratio, while simply spending more time would not improve it.

Tandor wrote: »

Personally, I'm against Pay for Convenience items - such as skill points in the Crown Store - and I'm also against trading Crowns for gold which is simply a developer's attempt to keep RMT transactions in-house, but they are not Pay to Win because they are not the sole province of those willing to spend real money, they are also available to those willing to spend the in-game time (and thereby in some cases in-game gold) to acquire them.

Kiralyn2000

JamilaRaj wrote: »

To be super blunt about it, the fallacy is in that "obtainable" and "in the game" are two different things and should not be lumped together as deceptive "obtainable in the game". As I said, there is a cap on gear (or generally power) that is largely function of time. Only finite gear (power) can be obtained in finite time. +4 weapon takes some time to get and +5 takes some more time to get (typically). If, for a given player, the cap is +4 weapon, then +5 weapon is literally unobtainable, even though it is in the game, not only the cash shop, and seemingly "obtainable".
To be more philosphical about it, +5 weapon in the game and the same +5 weapon in the cash shop are not the same weapons; the cash shop version takes zero time/effort to get and that is precisely why players would buy it, because it would improve they power per time ratio, while simply spending more time would not improve it.

But in the actual "p2w" games out there, it's literally impossible to get the +9 (or +12, or +15, or whatever cap they have) weapon without the cash shop. Even if you spent all the time in the world, they can't be ground out. Because in the gear improvement systems they have, the base chance of success drops to 1% by, say, +6. And if you fail in an attempt, your item might lose a level. Or be destroyed outright. Oh, but you can buy 'boosters' in the cash shop to improve your odds! And 'insurance' to keep your item from breaking on a failure! And to have any chance at all in PvP, you need to have all your gear enchanted to +9.

...and that's pay to win. Not all the stuff that people have been whining about in this game, trying to expand the definition to include anything they happen to not like. (And completely ignoring that the existence of Crown Gifting vastly reduces the possibility of "p2w", because players can obtain cash shop items with in-game gold. So even if there was something in the cash shop that gave players More Power than those who haven't spent $, it could be obtained by people with gold.)

Starlock

The game is already pay-to-win unless one is using a very narrow and contextually irrelevant understanding of the term. Furthermore, obsessively fixating on whether or not something is or isn't pay-to-win completely misses the fact that this game is rife with predatory monetization regardless.

kargen27

The next Tuesday when the moon is new, that is the date when the game will go pay to win. 8:13pm EST will be the precise time it happens.

Juhasow

Tandor wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

P2W means you can buy advantage in competitive play through real money purchases in the cash shop of items that are better than those corresponding items that can be earned in the game. So, for example, if you can only earn a +5 weapon in a game through questing or trials etc but you can buy a +6 weapon in the cash shop with real money then that is P2W.

Well by that logic if You have a game where upgrading inventory into maximum have high chance to fail and destroy the item but You can also buy the item in the cash shop that is protecting inventory from being destroyed or even improves it with 100% chance then it's not a P2W. After all You can also improve it normally by failing like 1000 times 1st. Maximal level of improvement is the same with both cash shop and by playing normally so no P2W right ? It's just paying to get something faster right ? And fact that at the end there will be 1 person that did it normally for every 100 people who bought improvement will be just coincidence right ?

Juhasow

As for pay to win : gifting.

Juhasow

Lady_Linux wrote: »

Certainly not b4 they get functioning servers

You just gave them idea for separate ESO+ for working server but only if You have ESO+ on base server.

JamilaRaj

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

To be super blunt about it, the fallacy is in that "obtainable" and "in the game" are two different things and should not be lumped together as deceptive "obtainable in the game". As I said, there is a cap on gear (or generally power) that is largely function of time. Only finite gear (power) can be obtained in finite time. +4 weapon takes some time to get and +5 takes some more time to get (typically). If, for a given player, the cap is +4 weapon, then +5 weapon is literally unobtainable, even though it is in the game, not only the cash shop, and seemingly "obtainable".
To be more philosphical about it, +5 weapon in the game and the same +5 weapon in the cash shop are not the same weapons; the cash shop version takes zero time/effort to get and that is precisely why players would buy it, because it would improve they power per time ratio, while simply spending more time would not improve it.

But in the actual "p2w" games out there, it's literally impossible to get the +9 (or +12, or +15, or whatever cap they have) weapon without the cash shop. Even if you spent all the time in the world, they can't be ground out. Because in the gear improvement systems they have, the base chance of success drops to 1% by, say, +6. And if you fail in an attempt, your item might lose a level. Or be destroyed outright. Oh, but you can buy 'boosters' in the cash shop to improve your odds! And 'insurance' to keep your item from breaking on a failure! And to have any chance at all in PvP, you need to have all your gear enchanted to +9.

...and that's pay to win. Not all the stuff that people have been whining about in this game, trying to expand the definition to include anything they happen to not like. (And completely ignoring that the existence of Crown Gifting vastly reduces the possibility of "p2w", because players can obtain cash shop items with in-game gold. So even if there was something in the cash shop that gave players More Power than those who haven't spent $, it could be obtained by people with gold.)

All the same. Zero time/effort item can not be obtained by spending more time/effort, and zero time/effort items mean that players can buy power on top of what they can get with their finite time.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Starlock wrote: »

The game is already pay-to-win unless one is using a very narrow and contextually irrelevant understanding of the term. Furthermore, obsessively fixating on whether or not something is or isn't pay-to-win completely misses the fact that this game is rife with predatory monetization regardless.

This, basically.

Unfadingsilence

nickl413 wrote: »

"Dragons will never come to Eso because it doesnt fit the lore." "We will fix the servers this year (every year so far)" "Expansions will NEVER be handled as DLCs" ....Did anyone from ZOS actually say these exact things? When 'We've got performance fixes in the works" turns into "We will fix the servers this year" I think you might be twisting things a little.

Yes a few years back they said those two things as well as many players if the game said that dragons would never come to ESO since it goes against lore

LoneStar2911

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

P2W elements are already is in this game.

It came with the 1st dungeon DLC. Dungeon DLC stuff (and some chapter trials) are significantly more powerful than what base game has to offer (and the power creep will make it worse as the time passes). Granted, you still need to "grind" the gear (I know, it is painful), but since there is NO other way to get this gear (you have to pay-to-get-access to that gear) - lets be clear - it is P2W. It fits the description of "paying for advantage".

That's not pay-to-win. That's typical (quality) MMO stuff. I'm all for supporting a game I love by buying DLCs/Chapters/Expansions/ETC. The game would get awfully stale without new content, and I'm not self-entitled enough to even think I ought to get access to new content for free.
Of course new content is going to give you access to "more powerful" equipment/items. That's one of their main selling points. But that doesn't make them pay-to-win. That's ludicrous.

Anotherone773

I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters

Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet

Etc. Etc Etc.

Monte_Cristo

Jack_TheImpaler wrote: »

Screw P2W I want P2 Lose back!

Yeah, I bought the broom, but didn't get the bucket helmet. Need to complete the set. Wear them while riding around on my stick mount.

Contaminate

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters

Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet

Etc. Etc Etc.

You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful

Nyladreas

Aelorin wrote: »

Imagine the rage when they would put potions/food/armor on sale that are better then what you could get ingame.

No no, they will never do that.

As for the boar pet: I got it. I have 18 characters, so all in all that are 90 more inventory slots. I find that handy, but do not consider it as pay to win.

At this point I'm just going to say, they should go ahead and do it, cause I'm getting sick of all these threads that constantly discuss P2W in a game where there is none. Devs should seriously just go ahead and make this entire game P2W just so people on the doom and gloom trip could have what they so deeply wish and desire.

People just need to stop, whether it happens or not, isn't in their control. This game is going to stay regardless of P2W or not. The whales are already so addicted they already spend 1000s of of dollars on this game. And WILL continue to spend more and make ZOS the most in the crown store income.

Pointless threads are pointless.

kargen27

Starlock wrote: »

The game is already pay-to-win unless one is using a very narrow and contextually irrelevant understanding of the term. Furthermore, obsessively fixating on whether or not something is or isn't pay-to-win completely misses the fact that this game is rife with predatory monetization regardless.

Nah, you have an option to buy things or not. Your decision has no impact on the game itself. You can spend thousands of dollars and a player that only paid for the base game can still kick your a$$ in Cyrodiil. The game is only predatory if you allow yourself to be prey. You don't need a wolf with purple stripes to play the game.

Contaminate

kargen27 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The game is already pay-to-win unless one is using a very narrow and contextually irrelevant understanding of the term. Furthermore, obsessively fixating on whether or not something is or isn't pay-to-win completely misses the fact that this game is rife with predatory monetization regardless.

Nah, you have an option to buy things or not. Your decision has no impact on the game itself. You can spend thousands of dollars and a player that only paid for the base game can still kick your a$$ in Cyrodiil. The game is only predatory if you allow yourself to be prey. You don't need a wolf with purple stripes to play the game.

And of course people like you would parrot the same story even when 5% damage boosts end up in the store because "a player that only paid for the base game can still kick your a$$ in Cyrodiil"

Tommy_The_Gun

Amber322 wrote: »

Of course new content is going to give you access to "more powerful" equipment/items. That's one of their main selling points. But that doesn't make them pay-to-win.

Tandor

Amber322 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

P2W elements are already is in this game.

It came with the 1st dungeon DLC. Dungeon DLC stuff (and some chapter trials) are significantly more powerful than what base game has to offer (and the power creep will make it worse as the time passes). Granted, you still need to "grind" the gear (I know, it is painful), but since there is NO other way to get this gear (you have to pay-to-get-access to that gear) - lets be clear - it is P2W. It fits the description of "paying for advantage".

That's not pay-to-win. That's typical (quality) MMO stuff. I'm all for supporting a game I love by buying DLCs/Chapters/Expansions/ETC. The game would get awfully stale without new content, and I'm not self-entitled enough to even think I ought to get access to new content for free.
Of course new content is going to give you access to "more powerful" equipment/items. That's one of their main selling points. But that doesn't make them pay-to-win. That's ludicrous.

Agreed. It's paying for new content, and unless you're happy playing at base game level caps for years on end then you're always going to want the new content release to involve some sort of leveling advance which will result in more powerful gear (and mobs). That doesn't make the additional content DLCs P2W any more than buying the original base game was P2W.

Anotherone773

Contaminate wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters

Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet

Etc. Etc Etc.

You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful

My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.

If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.

JamilaRaj

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I think people need to learn the definition of pay2win before they go slinging it around. Pay2win has to give an ADVANTAGE over other players that is otherwise unobtainable in game. Things that are not pay2win:
* 5 slot pig
* Crown store consumables
* Crown crates
* Crown mounts
* Anything in the crown store
* ESO PLUS or any content it grants access too.
* Any Chapters

Things that are pay2win:
* Crown only armor set that has double the impenetrable bonus of what is available in game
* Crown exclusive weapons that can have dual enchantments.
* Crown Mount with a 100% speed buff( Cyro PVP)
* Crown exclusive upgrade material to upgrade gear from gold to orange.
* Crown pots and poisons that are more potent than what you can make in game.
* Crown only combat pet

Etc. Etc Etc.

You don’t seem to have any idea of what makes P2W aspects a problem. Your definition is too narrow to be useful

My definition is the actual definition of P2W as it was coined/invented. I know, i was there. What many people, who throw the term around these days for anything they dont approve of, dont get is that a company has to make money. They think they should not have to pay for their gaming experience. That they are ENTITLED to it. That is all fine and dandy, but someone has to pay to keep the lights on. And if not enough people are willing to voluntarily buy subs and cosmetic items, then the company has to up the anty and offer things that are more useful but still do not give an advantage to one player over another such as an inventory pig.

If people are afraid a game will go p2w, then perhaps they should stop expecting companies to provide them free entertainment and pony up $15 a month for a sub. You get what you pay for. You want a game that doesnt depend on MT to help with funding, then buy subs.

The last time I did that, they threw in RMTs on top of subs anyway. The best part is this though: the game was ESO.
Nowadays games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs make a very short list, and the only reason why it is not even shorter if we exclude games that have subs, only subs and no RMTs only temporarily as part of bait and switch strategy is that the list has like zero items on it to begin with.