When will Pay2Win come?

Avrael

Since the crown store got implemented, the game was constantly on the verge of becoming pay2win, with the only thing holding it back being that consumable items and other stuff thats not cosmetical from the store are so bad, that noone buys or uses them, except maybe if you get it free from the daily rewards (even then i throw everything away, because it clutters inventory more then its useful to me).
In most other games, having consumable items in the cash store already would already count as being pay2win. If they would be even as good as crafted items, the entire story would already look much diffrent, that would be 100% pay2win.
Same with the Inventory-Pig-Pet. The ONLY reason most people dont consider it pay2win is, because its so absolutley useless. Whoever pays 1200 crowns for 5 more inventory slots, makes... not the best decision. But its still the closest the game has come to true pay2win so far. They cant push the boundary much more.

And for everyone saying "But they promised the wouldnt go pay2win":
1. Not the first nor the last time they lie. "Dragons will never come to Eso because it doesnt fit the lore." "We will fix the servers this year (every year so far)" "Expansions will NEVER be handled as DLCs" Just a few examples.
2. Trashfire 76 promised the same, not even a year later, its maximum pay2win (and worse). And thats from Bethesda, a company that ALSO is owned by Zenimax, like Zenimax Online Studios which make Eso. I dont care how much you cry "Thats not the same company boohoo", Zenimax is the boss and they have to allow everything that happens with their owned companys. They did NOT step in with anything Bethesda did with Fallout, so make no mistake to think Zos couldnt or wouldnt do something like this.

So when do you think this game will go full on sellout? With the next expansion? When they really somehow manage to fix the servers and players will come play again? Tomorrow? Yesterday?
I personally am convinced that its not a question of if, but of when. They shoved away so many players in the last months, they have to get in some money again. And thats certanly not coming in with all the canceled subs and things in the crown store... at the moment.

Aelorin

Imagine the rage when they would put potions/food/armor on sale that are better then what you could get ingame.

No no, they will never do that.

As for the boar pet: I got it. I have 18 characters, so all in all that are 90 more inventory slots. I find that handy, but do not consider it as pay to win.

ChunkyCat

I got a pocket full of cash. Let’s get it on.

nryerson1025

The moment the new content releases stop earning the numbers they desire, is my guess

zaria

Why should the go P2W? It might give an spike in income but would drive lots of players away so it probably end up as an loss.

Fallout 76 is not run by ZOS, and yes this is an difference Zenimax is an holding company owning lots of game studios, they don't micro manage them.
Fallout 76 is probably so much an dumpster fire and Bethesta so greedy they went P2W.

But P2W don't work well with an western audience outside of mobile or sports games.
Even worse for games you want people to play long term.

More so as its lots of monitation options players would be happy to pay for like more furniture slots or more character slots.
Add combat pet skins, why can not my Khajiit warden have an senche instead of an bear.

nafensoriel

Avrael wrote: »

/editsnippedthequote

P2Win is more an eastern MMO thing. It doesn't happen in the west or Europe all that much.
People just like to stir the fear pot. In the western market P2Win typically causes a loss of sales not an increase.

Also to be fair about the dragon thing... Dragon breaks are a thing. They are in lore. It's easy to add them whenever you want or even totally rechange the entire world with them. Khajit could be Daggerfall aligned with a dragon break and it would entirely fit the lore.

nickl413

"Dragons will never come to Eso because it doesnt fit the lore." "We will fix the servers this year (every year so far)" "Expansions will NEVER be handled as DLCs" ....Did anyone from ZOS actually say these exact things? When 'We've got performance fixes in the works" turns into "We will fix the servers this year" I think you might be twisting things a little.

mague

Avrael wrote: »

I personally am convinced that its not a question of if, but of when.

Thats not the problem. The problem is when it turns into pay2win only.

As long as you can play the game in a "classic" way there is no problem. I think ZOS is nice enough to always offer a classic gameplay.

The money thing is complicated. In the old days some people made all the money. Now the developers have minimal control and earn some money too. If they dont sell the sky shards someone will offer a sky shard collection service. The rule is always: Where a buyer is, there is a seller too.

It is a rather cynical 1st world problem and is what it is.

Curious_Death

pay2win

compare dlc gear to non-dlc

fight with non-dlc gear vs dlc -gear friend...

finally compare non-dlc gear on 50m dummy vs dlc gear

have fun !

Jack_TheImpaler

Screw P2W I want P2 Lose back!

zaria

Curious_Death wrote: »

pay2win

compare dlc gear to non-dlc

fight with non-dlc gear vs dlc -gear friend...

finally compare non-dlc gear on 50m dummy vs dlc gear

have fun !

Does not compare, its called progression and ESO is very mild here, in WOW an new expansion raises the level cap in the new zone and all endgame moves to it.
In ESO you looses out some gear but this is very old, spell power cure was meta for healers up to Summerset.

RefLiberty

Yeah, continue to drag that picture around and you are on the right way to get locked.

redlink1979

5 slots, for 1.2k crown, makes the entire difference for winning/losing? Well... No. Just being a bit dumb to pay such a high price for just 5 miserable slots imo.

1) Where lore is omissive, writers can speculate. That's what happened... And will keep happening...

Michae

When? Probably on 21st of May 2020. Why do you ask?

Huyen

mague wrote: »

Avrael wrote: »

I personally am convinced that its not a question of if, but of when.

Thats not the problem. The problem is when it turns into pay2win only.

As long as you can play the game in a "classic" way there is no problem. I think ZOS is nice enough to always offer a classic gameplay.

The money thing is complicated. In the old days some people made all the money. Now the developers have minimal control and earn some money too. If they dont sell the sky shards someone will offer a sky shard collection service. The rule is always: Where a buyer is, there is a seller too.

It is a rather cynical 1st world problem and is what it is.

Its rather "Create something people want to buy, then make it buyable."

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Jack_TheImpaler wrote: »

Screw P2W I want P2 Lose back!

Agree! I want another broom and bucket!!

Tandor

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

ATomiX69

Comming soon (™), but no ETA.

Like everything else in this game, besides cosmetics.

idk

Aelorin wrote: »

Imagine the rage when they would put potions/food/armor on sale that are better then what you could get ingame.

No no, they will never do that

Yes, while some will complain about convenience I doubt Zos will ever go P2W ans offer items stronger that what we can obtain in game.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

When BDO was launched...zos stated they even played and didn't like the direction that game is going and they will never do that to ESO...I pray it will never happen.

Tommy_The_Gun

P2W elements are already is in this game.

It came with the 1st dungeon DLC. Dungeon DLC stuff (and some chapter trials) are significantly more powerful than what base game has to offer (and the power creep will make it worse as the time passes). Granted, you still need to "grind" the gear (I know, it is painful), but since there is NO other way to get this gear (you have to pay-to-get-access to that gear) - lets be clear - it is P2W. It fits the description of "paying for advantage".

Monster sets (helmets & shoulders) on the other hand is imho not p2w. You can buy shoulders from Undaunted vendor or Gold vendor, without paying in RL. Same for helmets - you can from time to time buy them from Gold vendor in Cyro.
The point is that, there is a way to get those sets without paying, thus it is not P2W.
The same can not be said about Dungeon DLC 5pcs sets, as there is no way one can get them, other than paying for access to those sets.

I say: Add one random Dungeon DLC weapon & armour to Gold vendor. Problem solved. It would still take a lot of time to get full set (1 - 2 years probably), but no one will say it is P2W.

ayu_fever

the day i can swipe my card for vma and vdsa gear will be a good day.

JamilaRaj

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

Tandor

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

P2W means you can buy advantage in competitive play through real money purchases in the cash shop of items that are better than those corresponding items that can be earned in the game. So, for example, if you can only earn a +5 weapon in a game through questing or trials etc but you can buy a +6 weapon in the cash shop with real money then that is P2W.

Dusk_Coven

ayu_fever wrote: »

the day i can swipe my card for vma and vdsa gear will be a good day.

vMA is like "Play2Lose" -- After yet another 1+ hours of your life, all you get is to say "this was not the drop I was looking for"

zaria

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

See my above post about progression. WOW had this since Burning crusade. Pretty sure older MMO had it 20 years ago.

cyclonus11

I lost the game

Kiralyn2000

Friday, at 3:16pm. It'll be in the alley out back.

JamilaRaj

Tandor wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

P2W means you can buy advantage in competitive play through real money purchases in the cash shop of items that are better than those corresponding items that can be earned in the game. So, for example, if you can only earn a +5 weapon in a game through questing or trials etc but you can buy a +6 weapon in the cash shop with real money then that is P2W.

Which is fallacious example. What a player can obtain is largely function of time, i.e. in any given moment there is only so much that could have been obtained by playing. If it is +4 weapon for given player, then +5 weapon in the cash shop is just as P2W as +6 weapon, even though +5 is not cash-shop only like +6 weapon.
Likewise, if the best what you can put together in given moment is blue gear, then ESO is P2W, because cash-to-gold conversion via cash shop allows you to upgrade to gold, which would grant you an advantage in competitive play.

zaria wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The game has never been P2W, is not currently P2W, and in all probability never will be P2W. Most people who toss "P2W" around on the forums don't actually have the first idea what it means.

Please enlighten us, what P2W means.

See my above post about progression. WOW had this since Burning crusade. Pretty sure older MMO had it 20 years ago.

Look, the problem of older MMOs that expand end-game with DLCs is that in any given moment, for example, only 20% of players are at the current cap, meaning that 80% of their players simply will not buy DLCs.
ESO, on the other hand, a) scales players, so that nobody is too low for new zones, and b) adds more or less OP items or skills there, so that everyone has an incentive to buy them, regardless of how far they have progressed, how much, if anything, of the base game or previous DLCs they have completed. It is pure P2W element with no progression.

Lady_Linux

Certainly not b4 they get functioning servers

Contaminate

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

P2W elements are already is in this game.

It came with the 1st dungeon DLC. Dungeon DLC stuff (and some chapter trials) are significantly more powerful than what base game has to offer (and the power creep will make it worse as the time passes). Granted, you still need to "grind" the gear (I know, it is painful), but since there is NO other way to get this gear (you have to pay-to-get-access to that gear) - lets be clear - it is P2W. It fits the description of "paying for advantage".

Monster sets (helmets & shoulders) on the other hand is imho not p2w. You can buy shoulders from Undaunted vendor or Gold vendor, without paying in RL. Same for helmets - you can from time to time buy them from Gold vendor in Cyro.
The point is that, there is a way to get those sets without paying, thus it is not P2W.
The same can not be said about Dungeon DLC 5pcs sets, as there is no way one can get them, other than paying for access to those sets.

I say: Add one random Dungeon DLC weapon & armour to Gold vendor. Problem solved. It would still take a lot of time to get full set (1 - 2 years probably), but no one will say it is P2W.

I do wonder if just by being grouped with three people who do own a dlc, you could have it traded to you despite not owning the DLC after the three have completed it.

Basically you could pay other players to farm your DLC gear w/o having to own the DLC

As for the original question: ZOS is already at a P2W stage, people just refuse to accept that “Pay for Convenience” is just another shade of P2W. vMA weapon drops could be replaced generic MA sets at the final stage with a 10% chance getting a fragment of a weapon you would have to collect ten of then roll the dice for what weapon you get after that, and you’d still have have people insisting it isn’t P2W when vMA weapon’s are sold in the store because “yUo CaN gEt It In GaMe EvEnTuAlLy”