When will Pay2Win come?

El_Borracho

I hate getting sucked into these, but here we go. I don't see ESO ever becoming a true P2W game. By that I mean putting trials, dungeons, or arena gear up for sale in the guild store. They need people to run the content repeatedly. If they put that stuff up for sale, that would remove a primary reason to play the game.

ketsparrowhawk

It's already here. Didn't you see the boar? I've been a 1vX god ever since I bought that bad boy!

Starlock

Juhasow wrote: »

Try to find similarities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4&t=7s

Absolutely everyone playing this game needs to watch this.

And/or the associated commentaries that have been made on it.

When I complain about predatory monetization, this is what I'm talking about. To those who balk "but it's just cosmetic!" and "but you don't need it!" and "but it's not a competitive advantage!" and all this other industry apologetic bull crap, watch this. Watch this and understand that this sort of very deliberate psychological manipulation is impacting game design and actively making our games worse... all to exploit our love of games for cash. The industry does it because they can get away with it and, more importantly, because it makes them millions upon millions of dollars (aka, it works).

El_Borracho

Starlock wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Try to find similarities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4&t=7s

Absolutely everyone playing this game needs to watch this.

And/or the associated commentaries that have been made on it.

When I complain about predatory monetization, this is what I'm talking about. To those who balk "but it's just cosmetic!" and "but you don't need it!" and "but it's not a competitive advantage!" and all this other industry apologetic bull crap, watch this. Watch this and understand that this sort of very deliberate psychological manipulation is impacting game design and actively making our games worse... all to exploit our love of games for cash. The industry does it because they can get away with it and, more importantly, because it makes them millions upon millions of dollars (aka, it works).

Well, I mean they are making games to make a profit. This isn't art.

But there are much, much worse ways video games can be monetized. I've said this a few times on these boards, but GTA Online used to be one of the best MMO games out there. Balanced. Fun content. Great PVP and PVE. Then microtransactions took over. Laser tanks and flying motorcycles with missiles followed. That was true P2W, because if you didn't keep up with the new gear, you were basically using slings and arrows.

If ZOS wants to sell crates and costumes, and people want to buy them, and the rest of us reap the rewards off their revenue streams, that is terrific. Because if that dries up, there are only 2 alternatives: microtransactions or massive hikes in the cost of each chapter.

idk

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

The crafting/overland sets from DLC's can be bought from players wich I have done many times. My last was New moon acolytes set someone made.
To summarize this I really don't think ESO will become P2W. The only complain I have about new DLC, Crownstore items etc is to set it aside for a time and improve the bugs, animations and functions of the base game. Make it more of a stable gaming experience at this point THEN add new stuff to sell.

ESO is P2W already - Dungeon DLC 5 pcs sets.

I think we can all agree that those are significantly more powerful than base game sets and overland DLC sets.
It is power Creep, and is technically an "necessary evil" just to make people play the game and prevent "staling". But Power Creep can and eventually will cause unbalance, and if it is locked behind pay wall - it will cause P2W eventually.
It is only a matter of time, and in case of ESO - it already happened.
CP was not incensed and every skill nerfed, and yet DPS is going up.... I wonder why....


As far as I know there is no way to have access to those DLC Dungeon sets (even limited) other than paying RL cash and buying either Dungeon DLC or ESO+.

In short, in order to have access to most powerful sets, you have to pay.
So basically it fits the P2W description perfectly. Paying to have (access to) better gear, buying advantage for RL money.

I know, it is not immediate access. You still have to grind it. But, base game Dungeon sets, you also have to grind to get (that is why I deliberately omitted this).

But the thing about those DLC Dungeons sets is that because DLC Dungeons are much harder to do (vs base game ones) it creates this illusion:

"I got this gear not because I paid for it, but because of my skill".

Now here is an interesting part:
I dont think that DLC Monster sets are P2W. Why ? Well, because, even if you dont buy DLC Dungeon - you still can get those.
Undaunted Vendor sells Shoulders and Gold vendor occasionally sells Helmets. That means, there is a way to "have access" to this gear in other way than spending RL cash, therefore it is not P2W.

^ That is why I really think that ZOS should update gold vendor to sell random DLC 5 Pcs set peace each weekend. It would still take a lot of time to complete a full set (1 - 2 years probably), but no one would say that it is P2W.

Good try but the ESO+ trial multiple times a year basically negates the entire premise proposed in what I quoted.

Contaminate

El_Borracho wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Try to find similarities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4&t=7s

Absolutely everyone playing this game needs to watch this.

And/or the associated commentaries that have been made on it.

When I complain about predatory monetization, this is what I'm talking about. To those who balk "but it's just cosmetic!" and "but you don't need it!" and "but it's not a competitive advantage!" and all this other industry apologetic bull crap, watch this. Watch this and understand that this sort of very deliberate psychological manipulation is impacting game design and actively making our games worse... all to exploit our love of games for cash. The industry does it because they can get away with it and, more importantly, because it makes them millions upon millions of dollars (aka, it works).

Well, I mean they are making games to make a profit. This isn't art.

But there are much, much worse ways video games can be monetized. I've said this a few times on these boards, but GTA Online used to be one of the best MMO games out there. Balanced. Fun content. Great PVP and PVE. Then microtransactions took over. Laser tanks and flying motorcycles with missiles followed. That was true P2W, because if you didn't keep up with the new gear, you were basically using slings and arrows.

If ZOS wants to sell crates and costumes, and people want to buy them, and the rest of us reap the rewards off their revenue streams, that is terrific. Because if that dries up, there are only 2 alternatives: microtransactions or massive hikes in the cost of each chapter.

This year was a $50 “chapter” release that offered nothing more than a DLC, and it broke everything in the process including what was supposed to be the shiny new class. It was still OP enough to get sales with the exclusive 30% damage buff, so people had to buy it despite half the skills not working.

This year performance has shot straight into the ground, no performance fixes at all. Each attempted “fix” only made performance worse.

There’s been no updates (except nerfs) at all for base game players since BGs came to base game a year and a half ago.

ZOS isn’t using their profits to make the game better. It just goes right into the big wigs pockets while the skeleton dev crew tries to keep up with their quarterly demand updates that are getting shallower and less functionally sound by the day.

Those cosmetics you perceive as fluff, are in fact the primary profit source for ZOS. And as long as that’s the case, there’s not going to be any focus on quality gameplay that can be falling apart at the seems, as long as people still throw money at the newest shinies.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

Greetings,

Some posts have been removed from this thread due to its non-constructive nature. Please remember to abide by our community rules and keep the conversations on topic.

Veinblood1965

Not one of these posts even mentions how P2W even affects those who wouldn't pay for it. So what someone else can buy better food, or a nice mount, or eventually just pay for a CP maxed level 50 character with weapons and armor that you cannot obtain in game that is levels above what you can earn by playing. How does that take away from anyone who didn't pay? If anything it helps in the long run as there is more money to hire devs and voice actors, people to design and build quest lines, money to pay for dark elf blow up dolls at conventions and heaven forbid fix the server lag. Maybe I'm missing something and probably am if so point it out to me.

NettleCarrier

This whole thread is kinda funny, as are many others like it. In a game this easy to get into and this easy to hit level 50 with, what (hypothetically) would they need to sell to be Pay to Win? I can get to 50 on an alt character by spamming 100%-150% ambrosias in 8-12 hours without anyone helping. I'd never buy any kind of level boost and those are the most common forms of Pay to Win mechanics. Scrolls are already on sale to skip (nearly) all the grinds in the game and crowns are often traded for gold for people to buy things from other players - doesn't this by default already make it Pay to Win? I see people dropping hundreds of dollars on crowns to give to other players and getting vet content carries in return for crowns or gold - how much worse can it even get?

Starlock

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Not one of these posts even mentions how P2W even affects those who wouldn't pay for it. So what someone else can buy better food, or a nice mount, or eventually just pay for a CP maxed level 50 character with weapons and armor that you cannot obtain in game that is levels above what you can earn by playing. How does that take away from anyone who didn't pay?

It does so in a couple of ways, but I'm only going to talk about one of them because it's the only one that matters.

Predatory monetization models diminish the quality of video games for all players and encourages business practices that are not in any consumer's best interest. When players continue to support games with predatory monetization it adversely impacts the game for everyone because our purchasing decisions do not exist in a vacuum. There are abundant examples of how predatory monetization impacts video game quality in this game and beyond. Start looking into it and the writing is probably covering the entire wall at this point. Lack of consumer awareness is part of what enables companies like Zo$ to get away with this sort of racket. When the consumer doesn't realize they're being had, that makes them easy prey.