Darkenarlol wrote: »

wbernardo24 wrote: »

20% decrease from deaddric curse now lmao!! If ur a double pet sorc that’s really a rippp

and you are one of the guys who makes changes "official"? mkay

Kalante wrote: »

Wow sorcs actually need to learn how to play now instead of relying on a build that requires zero thought process.

so... la>1>la>2>la>3>la>4 swap la>1>la>2>la>3>la>4

requires "though process" while la>1>la>2>la>3> swap la>1>la>2>la>3>

is a "braindead mindless rotaion"...mkay...


P.S. not a petsorc btw just laughing on all

those "sorcs now have to think" comments

And they usually come from losers who can't play PvP on their 1 button specs and die to the eBil sorc

Decimus wrote: »

Literally no one (who's worth mentioning) on Live: "pet sorc needs buffs".

Literally no one before PTS update 5.2.3: "I wish they'd increase pet damage"

PTS Update 5.2.3

Summon Unstable Familiar:
Increased the damage per hit of this ability and its morphs’ basic attacks by 20%.
Increased the damage of the pulse attack from this morph and the Volatile Familiar morph by 20%.

Summon Winged Twilight: Increased the damage per hit of this ability and its morphs by 20%.

Literally no one afterwards "oh, what a nice change"

PTS Update 5.2.4

Daedric Curse
Daedric Prey (morph): Reduced the bonus damage for pets to 20%, down from 40%.

Sorcs: WAAAH pEt sOrc EXtiNCT!!


...sometimes I wonder if people really understand things like math or logic.

Sorc pets will be amongst the strongest "DoTs" in game after this patch and are still buffed compared to what they do on Live (in particular the burst heal on Twilight, which I managed to get up to 17,3k tooltip with zero points in Blessed...).

Here's why:
2000 (random base number we'll use)+20% (the buff in 5.2.3)=2400+20% (new Daedric Prey)=2880
2000+40% (old Daedric Prey)=2800


...in other words, the damage done by pet sorc is increased compared to Live (particularly when curse is not on target). The healing from Matriarch is up by about 70% & is now the strongest burst heal in the game by far.


Stop crying.

Literally ignores 5.2.0 changes. Stop lying

Aerenel wrote: »

I know its not a popular opinion but as far as mag dps rankings go, petsorc is still the 2nd highest performing spec in the game next patch after magblade. Could be worse, guys.

Really? And you base this on what? 2 parses that have been done on PTS on the raid dummy? Maybe wait a bit until people actually develop a new meta for every class, and then good players do parses on them, and you have something to compare it by.

The only thing that is clear is that petsorc will have very poor aoe damage and worst sustain of any class. Out of the 4 class skills on bars (2pets, prey, frag), only 1 pet does actually some aoe damage. The other source of aoe is unstable wall and that is it. And the other slots in those parses that you quote are filled with eleweapon, barbed trap, spellsym.

I know some do. What I wanted to say is that you are making a claim based on scanty information. And that I doubt that dummy parses in this case will transfer well to real fights due to lack of any aoe damage.

Er...

...in other words, the damage done by pet sorc is increased compared to Live (particularly when curse is not on target).

2000 (random base number we'll use)+20% (the buff in 5.2.3)=2400+20% (new Daedric Prey)=2880
2000+40% (old Daedric Prey)=2800

Redone:
2000 (random base number we'll use) -17% (5.2.0) = 1660 +20% (the buff in 5.2.3)=1992+20% (new Daedric Prey)= 2390
2000+40% (old Daedric Prey)=2800

If you refer to this, then yes - your scamp (which almost no one uses in PvP anyway) will deal a little bit less damage (-14,2%) when pet curse is on target, and about the same dmg (-0,4% to be precise!) when pet curse isn't active.

Yeah does anyone else find it messed up ZOS is punishing people for using Daedric Curse to... empower pets? In the Pet skill tree? If anything shouldn't it be the opposite and base pet damage should be lower and Curse much higher bonus, since you have to spend magicka to maintain it?

It's really messing with the original design of the skill tree, having Wards on your pets that aren't needed in PvE (Trials) and weakening Prey until it's not worth slotting over any ol' damage skill instead?

Not at all, why do you think I brought up twilight having 17,3k tooltip on the heal (with zero points in Blessed)? That change was made in 5.2.0 & literally makes sorc have the strongest burst heal in the game.

Also a change nobody actually wanted, since Matriach is viable even with the -67% damage nerf it got slapped with in Elsewhyr. The devs possibly think it makes Sorc Healer somehow?

Frankly I'm insulted that heal got buffed into the sky while Twilight Tormentor is still just as terrible as ever: no utility, no damage, dead skill as it's always been. Even when it was 30%(?) stronger before Elsewhyr it was bad. Still no debuffs added to it or anything, just zap zap zap and an active ability that doesn't function after a certain HP. Probably actually stronger in PvP than PvE just because reverse execute means something when everyone heals.

but let me guess, pets should be exempt from this "injustice" - dealing more damage than those skills isn't enough?

If you want the brutal truth, the fact these persistent pets like Sorc/Warden Ult have be double-slotted means they should be balanced in a way that makes them twice as effective as a single-slot ability. Thus far ZOS isn't doing that, if anything 5.X.X has shown they're just blanket buffed/nerfed with everything else.

Transairion wrote: »

Er...

...in other words, the damage done by pet sorc is increased compared to Live (particularly when curse is not on target).

2000 (random base number we'll use)+20% (the buff in 5.2.3)=2400+20% (new Daedric Prey)=2880
2000+40% (old Daedric Prey)=2800

Redone:
2000 (random base number we'll use) -17% (5.2.0) = 1660 +20% (the buff in 5.2.3)=1992+20% (new Daedric Prey)= 2390
2000+40% (old Daedric Prey)=2800

That calculation was referring to the Matriarch (the pet people actually often run in PvP), which didn't get a -17% anywhere.

For Scamp your numbers are accurate, it should be dealing 14,2% less damage on someone than on Live, which is peanuts compared to how much other "DoTs" were nerfed.

Transairion wrote: »

If you refer to this, then yes - your scamp (which almost no one uses in PvP anyway) will deal a little bit less damage (-14,2%) when pet curse is on target, and about the same dmg (-0,4% to be precise!) when pet curse isn't active.

Yeah does anyone else find it messed up ZOS is punishing people for using Daedric Curse to... empower pets? In the Pet skill tree? If anything shouldn't it be the opposite and base pet damage should be lower and Curse much higher bonus, since you have to spend magicka to maintain it?

It's really messing with the original design of the skill tree, having Wards on your pets that aren't needed in PvE (Trials) and weakening Prey until it's not worth slotting over any ol' damage skill instead?

I agree with this, they never should've increased the base damage by 20% & should've kept Prey as it is. Haunting seems by far like the better option now, even for pet sorcs.

Transairion wrote: »

Not at all, why do you think I brought up twilight having 17,3k tooltip on the heal (with zero points in Blessed)? That change was made in 5.2.0 & literally makes sorc have the strongest burst heal in the game.

Also a change nobody actually wanted, since Matriach is viable even with the -67% damage nerf it got slapped with in Elsewhyr. The devs possibly think it makes Sorc Healer somehow?

Frankly I'm insulted that heal got buffed into the sky while Twilight Tormentor is still just as terrible as ever: no utility, no damage, dead skill as it's always been. Even when it was 30%(?) stronger before Elsewhyr it was bad. Still no debuffs added to it or anything, just zap zap zap and an active ability that doesn't function after a certain HP. Probably actually stronger in PvP than PvE just because reverse execute means something when everyone heals.

Yup.

Frankly they should've left Matriarch as it was (it was already on par with HtD as a burst heal when used on a high magicka build) & perhaps buffed the Tormentor morph, though I don't know if more damage is what it needs (on Live atleast, there's some builds that run it+a ton of DoTs while using rapid regen as heal). Matriarch is still by far the preferred morph choice for the vast majority though.

If you want the brutal truth, the fact these persistent pets like Sorc/Warden Ult have be double-slotted means they should be balanced in a way that makes them twice as effective as a single-slot ability. Thus far ZOS isn't doing that, if anything 5.X.X has shown they're just blanket buffed/nerfed with everything else.

And they are - even more than twice as efficient.

With Matriarch you get a "DoT" that is amongst the strongest in the game after almost everything else is nerfed in this update and you get a burst heal that is almost double that of Honor the Dead.

A DoT and a burst heal - two skill slots, two "skills".


This on top of having a hitbox to hide inside in PvP, making it essentially RNG for the opponent if they hit you with ranged abilities (melee is a bit more reliable on hitting the right target, though not 100% either) or if they hit the pet instead.

Scamp? You get a "DoT" (again, stronger than most other DoTs after nerfs) and an AoE activate DoT (stronger than most other DoTs after nerfs) with a CC attached to it - again, essentially worth two skill slots.

Shantu wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

was not happy with the new PTS patch notes just more insult to injury at this point I bet the combat devs are just having a good long laugh at threads like these...

I have this recurring vision of the devs getting together after work, sitting around with pizza and beer, reading the forum on a wide screen TV, laughing there asses off, saying "Stupid morons! They still think we care!".

Probably a good laugh in the break room like what random thing should we nerf next?

What is pets' rate of attack anyway? I've always assumed it was in the range once every 2 or 2 1/2 seconds, but I haven't actually checked.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

If you want the brutal truth, the fact these persistent pets like Sorc/Warden Ult have be double-slotted means they should be balanced in a way that makes them twice as effective as a single-slot ability. Thus far ZOS isn't doing that, if anything 5.X.X has shown they're just blanket buffed/nerfed with everything else.

So much THIS. Please understand ZOS:
With 2 pets a PetSorc has only 6 slots left for shield, buffs, mobility and a damage.
This is nothing and means a PetSorc is always in slot troubles.
If pets now only do a fraction of the former damage, there are not enough slots for other damage skills.

For PetSorcs to be viable in PvP, there are only two solutions:
Solution 1: Sorc pets need to do enough damage again to justify two slots.
Solution 2: Sorc pets need to be changed to use only 1 slot as other Class pets do.

Pets are interesting as they behave differently to any other skill (double slot/passive damage+active ability). However I can see how this makes it very difficult to get them balanced in the current standardisation strategy.

The problem with your first proposed solution is that the sorc pets still have to be balanced vs the GCD and magicka costs vs other DoTs. You have to consider two cases which makes balancing it difficult:

1) When the active is not used at all. In which case you are effectively getting "free" damage at no magicka or GCD cost. The only equivalent to this on other classes would be slotting two skills just for passive effects (ie Inner light on both bars). Thus the passive pet damage/effect needs to only provide a similar amount of effectiveness to these sort of passive skills. Whether this is currently the case is hard to say, but to me this is what the benchmark should be.

2) When the active is used. I would think that this should be balanced around whatever the relevant standard for the active type (heal, DoT, AoE DoT etc) otherwise it will lead to issues in DPS and burst due to the effectiveness of the skill vs the GCD and magicka cost of the active vs other skills. However I agree that there is an issue that in the case of pets where the active "overrides" the passive damage due to having a duration (ie: scamp), which means that when you use the active you are effectively only getting one skill worth of effect even though it takes up two slots.

My alternative suggestion would be that if sorc pets take up two slots they could most easily be balanced to other skills as follows:
1) Each Pet provides a unique "while summoned" passive buff of equivalent strength to other skills slotted for their passive effect (ie: Inner Light). Could be anything but the aim would be to try to alleviate some of the bar space issue by reducing the need for other buff skills.
2) Pet passive damage reduced to compensate for the addition of the "while summoned" passive. Could actually be removed entirely for some pets if the passive buff is good enough.
3) Pet active is standardised against the relevant skill type

This would mean that the slotting the pet is effectively behaving as if you had simply slotted 1 passive skill and 1 active skill on another class, with the slight benefit of having the effect available on both bars, and getting a bit of free damage when not using the active.

This doesn't consider the fact that pets can die and have to be re-summoned, but given that they don't die in PvE its not really an issue there and in PvP I would say it is countered by the fact that the Pets provide defensive benefits via LoS.

The second proposed solution would also work, but to be balanced would mean the pets would have to be temporary like Necro. Personally I don't really like this approach as it loses some of the identity of Sorc's (permanent pets) and makes them the same as another class.

5.2.3 21m parse, 2 pets, perfected false god, mothers sorrow, zaan



same build, 5.2.4



3.6k dps loss from the prey nerf

Because reasons.

Good to see this game is dying for me more and more with each patch. This combat team is a living nightmare at this point.